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Old 05-14-2022, 09:30 AM   #1
wegone
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So many questions.....

And so little understandings, arg.

I have this trailer: https://www.rvusa.com/rv-guide/2019-...5rbiwe-tr38196

And this truck: https://www.edmunds.com/ford/f-250-s...eatures-specs/ SHORT BED

Can one of you guys walk me through the method of determining how it all relates and how?

I am told I am not even close to its limit, so I'm told, and I have never had any issues pulling it at all, but still, I am ignorant to the reality of this set up, and would feel a lot better understanding how it all works in conjunction, even the length of the trailer when compared to the length/WB of TV.

Any link, or, would be greatly appreciated if my question, request is too complicated to explain in this format.

Thank you
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Old 05-14-2022, 09:44 AM   #2
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The typical considerations for a travel trailer are:

- use 15% of the GVWR to determine loaded pin/hitch weight. In your case that's 1140lbs
- Calculate everything that's going into the truck: people, gear, pets, equipment (including your hitch)...everything. That gives you your total cargo.
- Look at the sticker inside your truck driver door and find the posted cargo capacity for your specific truck. The website says you could have >2700 lbs payload but your truck could be different.

Simple math: Truck payload (cargo capacity) minus trailer pin weight and total cargo = ??? If that number is >0 then you are in the black. You would want to reconsider your truck if that number were <0 or very near to 0. But in your case you're likely OK. But do the math using your real numbers to be sure.
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Old 05-14-2022, 09:49 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by jsb5717 View Post
The typical considerations for a travel trailer are:

- use 15% of the GVWR to determine pin weight. In your case that's 1140lbs
- Calculate everything that's going into the truck: people, gear, pets, equipment (including your hitch)...everything. That gives you your total cargo.
- Look at the sticker inside your truck driver door and find the posted cargo capacity for your specific truck. The website says you could have >2700 lbs payload but your truck could be different.

Simple math - Truck payload (cargo capacity) minus trailer pin weight and total cargo = ??? If that number is >0 then you are in the black. You would want to reconsider your truck if that number were <0 or very near to 0. But in your case you're likely OK. But do the math using your real numbers to be sure.
OK, I am going to try and get a understanding with that using real numbers.
How about trailer length to wheelbase of TV?

Thanks for your reply.
It seems simple enough, however in all honesty I am not really "getting it" and I know I should.
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Old 05-14-2022, 09:51 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Island Eddie View Post
OK, I am going to try and get a understanding with that using real numbers.
How about trailer length to wheelbase of TV?

Thanks for your reply.
It seems simple enough, however in all honesty I am not really "getting it" and I know I should.
IMHO your TV will handle that trailer's length just fine. The F250 is a heavy duty truck, as is the F350. That platform is significantly more stable than the F150 platform
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Old 05-14-2022, 10:06 AM   #5
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First, the two links posted are for the "best specifications on the truck" and the "best (lowest) weights on the trailer"...

The truck specs say "maximum payload capacity" 2790 pounds. That's for a XL model with base equipment. Add XLT, add Lariat, add tonneau cover, add maps in console, add tool box, add tow strap under the back seat, add spare quart of oil.... add, Add, ADD..... you get the point.... Now, look at the yellow sticker on the driver's door panel on YOUR truck and you'll see the actual payload for your truck as it left the factory. ANYTHING that you, a previous owner or a dealer has added must be deducted from that yellow sticker payload on YOUR truck....

Then, the specs on the trailer (brochure weight) are as the standard trailer with no options, no propane in the tanks, no battery and no spare or optional equipment. Once the trailer gets to the dealership and someone buys it, they add the propane to the tanks, add battery/batteries, add a "convenience pack" which is chocks, blocks, sewer hose, fittings and city water hose. Then, the customer adds chairs, linens, food, recreation equipment, and other personal items, the weight goes up dramatically....

The "good part" at least for you, is that you have the trailer and the truck. You can locate a CAT scale near you, pay the $14 to get 3 weights and then know EXACTLY where you fit on the spectrum. There's no need to guess....

Just go to the scale, pull onto the pad, get a "road ready weight" for truck and trailer hitched and ready to travel, then get out of the truck (don't move it) and uncouple the WD bars, get back in the truck and weight it "without weight distribution", then tow off the scale, unhook the trailer, return the truck to the scale and weigh it "with the WD bars still hanging in the hitch.

With those three weights, you can calculate EXACTLY what your rig weighs, what your hitch weighs, what amount of weight your "distribution bars" are moving forward and what amount they are moving rearward to the trailer axles, what your truck weight is per axle and what your trailer total weight is as well as the amount of weight on the trailer axles, both "distributed and dead weight".

Easy to do, just a matter of "forgetting the BS specs that you read about a "sample truck" (that may be 1000 pounds different from your truck) and a "sales brochure trailer" (that may be 1500-2000 pounds different from your trailer).....

ADDED: To illustrate the "BS" in those website specifications, take a look at page 20 in the 2011 Ford Towing guide: https://pictures.dealer.com/koonsann...f60f0883c9.pdf The 14000 max trailer capacity is for a diesel F250, but the payload is for a 6.2L gas F250. Every website "cherrypicks" the best specifications to meet their "pitch" and omits the reality that you can't have a "gas engine payload AND a diesel tow capacity" in the same truck !!!!!
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Old 05-14-2022, 10:07 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Island Eddie View Post
How about trailer length to wheelbase of TV?
.

Rule of thumb for trailer length to WB to avoid instability:

120” of WB for first 20 ft of trailer, then 4” of additional WB for every foot of trailer greater than 20 ft.
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Old 05-14-2022, 10:47 AM   #7
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Rule of thumb for trailer length to WB to avoid instability:

120” of WB for first 20 ft of trailer, then 4” of additional WB for every foot of trailer greater than 20 ft.
OK, so I have a WB of 141.9 on my truck, and a 26 foot trailer, so I am at maximum for that WB then, right?

So with a 250 instead of a 150, I would guess I have more cushion using that formula, right?
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Old 05-14-2022, 10:49 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
First, the two links posted are for the "best specifications on the truck" and the "best (lowest) weights on the trailer"...

The truck specs say "maximum payload capacity" 2790 pounds. That's for a XL model with base equipment. Add XLT, add Lariat, add tonneau cover, add maps in console, add tool box, add tow strap under the back seat, add spare quart of oil.... add, Add, ADD..... you get the point.... Now, look at the yellow sticker on the driver's door panel on YOUR truck and you'll see the actual payload for your truck as it left the factory. ANYTHING that you, a previous owner or a dealer has added must be deducted from that yellow sticker payload on YOUR truck....

Then, the specs on the trailer (brochure weight) are as the standard trailer with no options, no propane in the tanks, no battery and no spare or optional equipment. Once the trailer gets to the dealership and someone buys it, they add the propane to the tanks, add battery/batteries, add a "convenience pack" which is chocks, blocks, sewer hose, fittings and city water hose. Then, the customer adds chairs, linens, food, recreation equipment, and other personal items, the weight goes up dramatically....

The "good part" at least for you, is that you have the trailer and the truck. You can locate a CAT scale near you, pay the $14 to get 3 weights and then know EXACTLY where you fit on the spectrum. There's no need to guess....

Just go to the scale, pull onto the pad, get a "road ready weight" for truck and trailer hitched and ready to travel, then get out of the truck (don't move it) and uncouple the WD bars, get back in the truck and weight it "without weight distribution", then tow off the scale, unhook the trailer, return the truck to the scale and weigh it "with the WD bars still hanging in the hitch.

With those three weights, you can calculate EXACTLY what your rig weighs, what your hitch weighs, what amount of weight your "distribution bars" are moving forward and what amount they are moving rearward to the trailer axles, what your truck weight is per axle and what your trailer total weight is as well as the amount of weight on the trailer axles, both "distributed and dead weight".

Easy to do, just a matter of "forgetting the BS specs that you read about a "sample truck" (that may be 1000 pounds different from your truck) and a "sales brochure trailer" (that may be 1500-2000 pounds different from your trailer).....

ADDED: To illustrate the "BS" in those website specifications, take a look at page 20 in the 2011 Ford Towing guide: https://pictures.dealer.com/koonsann...f60f0883c9.pdf The 14000 max trailer capacity is for a diesel F250, but the payload is for a 6.2L gas F250. Every website "cherrypicks" the best specifications to meet their "pitch" and omits the reality that you can't have a "gas engine payload AND a diesel tow capacity" in the same truck !!!!!
I am going to have to read this slowly, and many times, it seems simple to you, and I hope one day it will to me also

THANK YOU.
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Old 05-14-2022, 10:55 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Island Eddie View Post
I am going to have to read this slowly, and many times, it seems simple to you, and I hope one day it will to me also

THANK YOU.
It will... When you take your time, draw an outline of a truck and an outline of a trailer and use your finger as you read (not intending to insult, just to reduce the hard parts to elementary components) it all becomes clear....

The reality is what you read in advertising brochures is BS intended to make things attractive, not to keep them real... So, when you look at a "spec sheet" about your truck and it lists the payload for a gas engine truck and the towing capacity of a diesel truck, "THEY are pumping your black tank full"...

Use YOUR truck and YOUR trailer. Get the specifications that apply to YOUR equipment, not the "blended BS from a sales agency" and you'll see that it all "sort of falls into place"....
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Old 05-14-2022, 11:18 AM   #10
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Also if any truck or rv salesperson lips are moving mentioning ANYTHING about weights, tow capacities or dry weights just understand it's probably ALL BS, most do not know or care if you're capable of getting out of the parking lot safely as long as they've sold whatever they're selling, typically they've never spent a single night in a rv or ever towed a trailer of any kind.
The setup you've listed is most likely just fine from the numbers you've posted, but if you upgrade to a 5th wheel at some point a truck upgrade will also be necessary.
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Old 05-14-2022, 12:48 PM   #11
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Just as what has been said about brochure weights not being reliable, basic math weights and formulas such as 15% of trailer weight for tongue weight are also not reliable. A weight distribution hitch “moves” weight around. When you connect your trailer to the truck without one, all of the tongue weight is on the hitch and some weight from the front axle of the truck will transfer back when the truck squats under load. A WDH that is properly set up will move the weight back to the front axle and will also move some of the hitch weight back to the trailer axle. The only way to know what you have is to go to the scales. I don’t get as involved as the previous explanation for 3 weights, I only care about 2 weights, connected and disconnected. I weigh the truck without the trailer so I know the weight at each axle of the truck, then weigh it with the trailer connected and WDH properly set up and see what the weights are at each axle. The difference between the two rear axle weights is what’s on your hitch, the total of the steer and drive axle is what your truck weighs with the trailer connected which you can then compare to your GVWR. It’s not as complete and “scientific” as the 3 weight method, but is good enough to get me the info I need IMO.

As for length vs WB, again no formula is going to give you a complete story. A heavier truck such as a 250 vs 150 makes a big difference, LT vs P tires makes a difference, big differences in WDH ability to control sway. Standard suspension on the truck vs upgraded suspension or stock height vs lifted, all change the dynamics. To say I have XX trailer length so I need XX wheel base…..well, it’s just not that simple.
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Old 05-14-2022, 12:49 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by travelin texans View Post
Also if any truck or rv salesperson lips are moving mentioning ANYTHING about weights, tow capacities or dry weights just understand it's probably ALL BS, most do not know or care if you're capable of getting out of the parking lot safely as long as they've sold whatever they're selling, typically they've never spent a single night in a rv or ever towed a trailer of any kind.
The setup you've listed is most likely just fine from the numbers you've posted, but if you upgrade to a 5th wheel at some point a truck upgrade will also be necessary.
Glad you said most and probably not all and always.
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Old 05-14-2022, 03:59 PM   #13
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As John said, go visit a scale, period. If you have a 10k gvw and it scales less than 10k you're good. As for length I tow a 35 1/2' travel trailer. My truck IIRC wb is 158". The tongue weight on our trailer runs between 1,100 lbs and about 1,250 lbs depending on load and how much fresh water ( tank is up front). I keep a SherLine tongue scale in my truck so I don't have to resvist a scale to know what it is. I use an old Reese dual cam wdh with anti sway built in.

My truck has E rated tires as does the trailer. I usually have no sway issues up to 70 mph. With that said, I keep my speed around 63 mph regardless of speed limit if the limit is 70. Wind or passing trucks is not an issue. Now for the "BUT disclaimer". Depending on the roads the trailer might want to wander a little. Perfect example is the current trip we're on. Currectly in Moundsville, WV at the Grand View Park which just opened last month. I68 thru MD no issues. Crossed into WV and roads are a mess. A stretch of about 10 miles they groved the road in preperation for repaving. Whomever ran the grinder/ grooving machine must have been drunk. The grooves were not straight and the rig wanted to follow the grooves. Brand new tires on truck and trailer and the rig wanted to follow the grooving. I noticed tractor trailers doing the same thing in traffic. Solution? Slow down. I slowed down to 57 - 58 and it was less problematic.

I'm guessing with a dually it would be less of an issue but it likely would not have helped the earthquake feeling from the terrible road surface with pot holes, asphalt drops at the edge of the road etc. Some sections thru PA and WV I dropped down to 50 mph just to keep the fillings in my teeth. I told my DW that there must be an asphalt shortage given the lack of repairs. Sometimes reducing speed is the only reasonable/safe option.
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Old 05-14-2022, 04:11 PM   #14
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Just as what has been said about brochure weights not being reliable, basic math weights and formulas such as 15% of trailer weight for tongue weight are also not reliable. A weight distribution hitch “moves” weight around. When you connect your trailer to the truck without one, all of the tongue weight is on the hitch and some weight from the front axle of the truck will transfer back when the truck squats under load. A WDH that is properly set up will move the weight back to the front axle and will also move some of the hitch weight back to the trailer axle. The only way to know what you have is to go to the scales. I don’t get as involved as the previous explanation for 3 weights, I only care about 2 weights, connected and disconnected. I weigh the truck without the trailer so I know the weight at each axle of the truck, then weigh it with the trailer connected and WDH properly set up and see what the weights are at each axle. The difference between the two rear axle weights is what’s on your hitch, the total of the steer and drive axle is what your truck weighs with the trailer connected which you can then compare to your GVWR. It’s not as complete and “scientific” as the 3 weight method, but is good enough to get me the info I need IMO.

As for length vs WB, again no formula is going to give you a complete story. A heavier truck such as a 250 vs 150 makes a big difference, LT vs P tires makes a difference, big differences in WDH ability to control sway. Standard suspension on the truck vs upgraded suspension or stock height vs lifted, all change the dynamics. To say I have XX trailer length so I need XX wheel base…..well, it’s just not that simple.


The highlighted above is correct...to a point. The brochures/webpages or anything else posting a truck or trailer's payload WILL be off, usually by a large margin since they don't even use the type vehicle(s) you own to come up with the numbers.

Trying to calculate truck/rv combinations is somewhat vague but not nearly as off the mark as the above. When people don't even have the truck, or the trailer, or both, you can't go to a scale and worry about 3 weights, 2 weights or.....ANY weight. That is the case in nearly all situations with folks new to towing. The only way to even give a person new to towing the barest tools to try to figure out what works and what doesn't is to use the established rules of thumb; 10-15% of gvw for tongue weight, 20-25% of gvw for pin weight - no other way other than to just say "hey, that's a good looking combo", "won't even know it's back there", "Weights? What's weights"?

What a wdh does or doesn't do really has no bearing in trying to determine what combination may or may not work for a new person. The weight does not go anywhere outside the combo when it's hooked up....it's simply moving numbers within a confined box.
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Old 05-14-2022, 08:52 PM   #15
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Glad you said most and probably not all and always.
Let me put it this way!
ALL of those I've dealt with were ALWAYS prepared with their rehearsed line of BS that was NOWHERE near reality.
And I agree with the other Danny that if you don't have a truck or rv with no idea of what might work with what the percentages of pin/tongue weights compared to the payload of a given truck are the ONLY tools available to work with! NOT tow ratings vs dry weights which 99.999%, maybe not ALL, of salesmen will use to attempt a sale of a rv to a uneducated unsuspecting new rv buyer.
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Old 05-15-2022, 07:24 AM   #16
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Let me put it this way!
ALL of those I've dealt with were ALWAYS prepared with their rehearsed line of BS that was NOWHERE near reality.
And I agree with the other Danny that if you don't have a truck or rv with no idea of what might work with what the percentages of pin/tongue weights compared to the payload of a given truck are the ONLY tools available to work with! NOT tow ratings vs dry weights which 99.999%, maybe not ALL, of salesmen will use to attempt a sale of a rv to a uneducated unsuspecting new rv buyer.
It's like the shoe salesman of bygone years. If he had a pile of shoes to sell and could find a pair "close" to your size, well man did they look great on you and he'd push on the toe, squeeze your instep and say " they are a "perfect fit"! If you said they felt tight you got a "well you have to break them in" reply.
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Old 05-15-2022, 08:06 AM   #17
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Dang.... I wish I was as smart as you guys

I won't stop trying to understand this, even if I have to grapple all summer long with it

My salesman was awesome, he even gave me his home phone number to hook up and go fishing with him, but I never did. He also took my rig out with me in it to give me a learner course and basics, had me pull it back while he gave further instructions, etc.

I don't for a second think he was just shoving me into a trailer for profit.
I recall him looking at my sticker on my truck, as we had it with us when shopping. Also, he picked out the WD hitch, and made sure of its correct installation on the truck before we took it out on the road for my instructions, lesson. The trailer and truck are really level, no dip or rise between the two, which I imagine when new tires are called for an adjustment might be needed if the new tires differ in height at all.

You guys are awesome, sorry I am so dumb, but I have a feeling there are lots more like me out there but just too stubborn to admit it
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Old 05-15-2022, 08:22 AM   #18
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I don't know about smart. I prefer to think of it in terms of some folks have more experiences than others. Many, many years ago I worked as an industrial electrician. When called to fix a machine I'd ask the operator what's broke. One time time a "new guy" said "why are you asking him?, he's just a dumb machine operator." Well, that "dumb guy" has been running that machine for x years and has seen it breakdown before, likely rembers what was needed to fix and can tell you more than reading the manual.

Experience, it comes with trial and error and many mistakes along the way. Common sense is listening to the advice given by the experienced. Wisdom, is knowing when the advice is valid and seeking further validation and information. My definitions and just my opinions.
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Old 05-15-2022, 09:00 AM   #19
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Somewhere out there I'd like to think that there are RV and truck sales folks who actually do understand how to safely match a truck to a trailer. They can't ALL be ignorant. It sounds like it's possible that the OP got someone who attempted to do it right. And given the data available at the time of the purchase of a new trailer it sounds like the truck is a decent match and should safely handle real-life towing.
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Old 05-15-2022, 09:47 AM   #20
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Somewhere out there I'd like to think that there are RV and truck sales folks who actually do understand how to safely match a truck to a trailer. They can't ALL be ignorant. It sounds like it's possible that the OP got someone who attempted to do it right. And given the data available at the time of the purchase of a new trailer it sounds like the truck is a decent match and should safely handle real-life towing.
I think there are a few, but finding them & knowing the difference is the hard part.
From what I've experienced lately with auto & especially rv dealers is the demand is/was very high along with extremely over inflated prices so everyone that thought they were salesmen came out of the woodwork looking to make big commissions quickly then could return to work at Mickey Ds.
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