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Old 05-13-2022, 02:44 PM   #1
jasin1
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Holding tanks and gvwr

does keystone factor in full holding tanks with its gvwr?…apparently Jayco doesn’t allow for that so you could theoretically be way over the axle ratings if you drive with tanks full for any distance.

i guess i assumed the trailer gvwr included full tanks but it looks like some manufacturers do it differently
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Old 05-13-2022, 03:34 PM   #2
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On mine, there are two adjacent stickers. One is the Tire and Loading information sticker which says “The Weight of Cargo Should Never Exceed 2,030 lbs. or 921 Kg.

The other sticker is the vehicle information sticker which says “Cargo Carrying Capacity 800 Kg (1,764 lbs.) calculated with the freshwater tank full (cold 140 Kg, hot 23 Kg) and the wastewater tanks empty (mass of wastewater tanks full 227 Kg).

Do the math and you get an interesting result; the trailer tag gives me 42 Kg (93 lbs.) more capacity on paper than the tire and loading info tag does.

I don't ever travel with full tanks and my measured weights are well below the lowest figure listed, so I am comfortable. But you can easily see how someone just starting out can get confused, and that’s before we even talk about the tow vehicle!
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Old 05-13-2022, 03:34 PM   #3
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Jayco & Keystone are kissing cousins under the Thor umbrella. Not sure who decides how to come up with gross weight? Suspect the divisions do but who knows. I am sure wiser heads will offer their sage wisdom on this subject. If my black, gray and fresh tanks were full that would add almost 1000 lbs of gross weight on my little camper.
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Old 05-13-2022, 03:40 PM   #4
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Jayco & Keystone are kissing cousins under the Thor umbrella. Not sure who decides how to come up with gross weight? Suspect the divisions do but who knows. I am sure wiser heads will offer their sage wisdom on this subject. If my black, gray and fresh tanks were full that would add almost 1000 lbs of gross weight on my little camper.
Full waste tanks are the very definition of gross weight!
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Old 05-13-2022, 04:05 PM   #5
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if i ever order a new fifth wheel i’m gonna pay extra for upgraded axles and tires …seems like they really choose the bare minimum
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Old 05-13-2022, 04:12 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by NH_Bulldog View Post
On mine, there are two adjacent stickers. One is the Tire and Loading information sticker which says “The Weight of Cargo Should Never Exceed 2,030 lbs. or 921 Kg.

The other sticker is the vehicle information sticker which says “Cargo Carrying Capacity 800 Kg (1,764 lbs.) calculated with the freshwater tank full (cold 140 Kg, hot 23 Kg) and the wastewater tanks empty (mass of wastewater tanks full 227 Kg).

Do the math and you get an interesting result; the trailer tag gives me 42 Kg (93 lbs.) more capacity on paper than the tire and loading info tag does.

I don't ever travel with full tanks and my measured weights are well below the lowest figure listed, so I am comfortable. But you can easily see how someone just starting out can get confused, and that’s before we even talk about the tow vehicle!
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Jayco & Keystone are kissing cousins under the Thor umbrella. Not sure who decides how to come up with gross weight? Suspect the divisions do but who knows. I am sure wiser heads will offer their sage wisdom on this subject. If my black, gray and fresh tanks were full that would add almost 1000 lbs of gross weight on my little camper.

i see mine has the same sticker with a note that full waste tanks adds 950+ lbs…i always assumed it was included in the calculation…do toy haulers include a full tank of gasoline for the onboard tanks?
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Old 05-13-2022, 04:20 PM   #7
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if i ever order a new fifth wheel i’m gonna pay extra for upgraded axles and tires …seems like they really choose the bare minimum

When you do all that get disc brakes....you will not regret it.
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Old 05-13-2022, 04:39 PM   #8
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When you do all that get disc brakes....you will not regret it.
i’ve followed along when you had that done…Brent’s (Gearhead) also …seems like a nice upgrade
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Old 05-13-2022, 04:44 PM   #9
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well i guess when someone boondocks with a bunch of solar panels,battery banks,inverters and solar chargers and then add in full tanks and everything else you bring on a camping trip you could easily be way over axle and tire ratings …besides whatever problems that can cause with your payload in your truck…wonder how many people that go to the scales ever go with full tanks? to see what the magic number really is
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Old 05-13-2022, 04:49 PM   #10
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I don't see where there's any "confusion" about GVWR. Honestly, it's very simple.

GVWR is the gross vehicle weight rating. It's the maximum the trailer can weigh. Regardless of what "cargo" is onboard that increases trailer weight, when the weight gets to the maximum (GVWR) then you can't add more weight.

Start with empty tanks and you can add weight "UP TO THE GVWR"
Start wtih full tanks and you still, "can add weight "UP TO THE GVWR".

In the first situation (empty tanks) you have more "weight to add" but the GVWR is the same in both situations. Once you hit GVWR, you stop adding weight....

In this day and age of half ton trailers, heavy half trucks, enhanced towing packages, ultra lite trailers and all the other "smoke and mirrors", people get "sold an image" or "see what they want to see"....

No matter what weight you start with, empty tanks and lots of cargo capability or full tanks and reduced cargo capability, when you get to GVWR, your trailer stops being "Cinderella's carriage" and becomes "just another pumpkin"...

If the GVWR is 10000 pounds, and the empty trailer weighs 7000 pounds, you can add 3000 pounds to the trailer. Matters not whether it's 1000 pounds of waste water and 2000 pounds of recreational equipment or no waste water and 3000 pounds of recreational equipment, once you hit 10000 pounds, you're towing a pumpkin at GVWR.

Looks to me like there's a "sudden realization that hit those Jayco owners"... They found out that waste water is cargo.... DUH !!!!!
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Old 05-13-2022, 04:59 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
I don't see where there's any "confusion" about GVWR. Honestly, it's very simple.

GVWR is the gross vehicle weight rating. It's the maximum the trailer can weigh. Regardless of what "cargo" is onboard that increases trailer weight, when the weight gets to the maximum (GVWR) then you can't add more weight.

Start with empty tanks and you can add weight "UP TO THE GVWR"
Start wtih full tanks and you still, "can add weight "UP TO THE GVWR".

In the first situation (empty tanks) you have more "weight to add" but the GVWR is the same in both situations. Once you hit GVWR, you stop adding weight....

In this day and age of half ton trailers, heavy half trucks, enhanced towing packages, ultra lite trailers and all the other "smoke and mirrors", people get "sold an image" or "see what they want to see"....

No matter what weight you start with, empty tanks and lots of cargo capability or full tanks and reduced cargo capability, when you get to GVWR, your trailer stops being "Cinderella's carriage" and becomes "just another pumpkin"...

If the GVWR is 10000 pounds, and the empty trailer weighs 7000 pounds, you can add 3000 pounds to the trailer. Matters not whether it's 1000 pounds of waste water and 2000 pounds of recreational equipment or no waste water and 3000 pounds of recreational equipment, once you hit 10000 pounds, you're towing a pumpkin at GVWR.

Looks to me like there's a "sudden realization that hit those Jayco owners"... They found out that waste water is cargo.... DUH !!!!!


i agree but i’ve taken my fifth wheel to the scales a couple of times when i got it….i loaded up as suggested on the forum just like i was going camping and had my numbers to see if my truck was capable ( it wasn’t) …BUT i overlooked the fact that the full tanks were not included …so i’d really have to add the worst case scenario of an added 950 lbs to the rv which would translate to an extra pin weight of ???….your right it’s obvious when you think about it but i guess i didn’t
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Old 05-13-2022, 05:07 PM   #12
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The "simple solution" to that is to take in what you are going to use (in the fresh water tank) and as you use it, it's transferred to the waste water tanks... There really shouldn't be any "extreme overweight by adding waste water" if the only water you have in the trailer is "just changing tanks"....

Now, if you're at a W&E site, it's easy to arrive with an empty FW tank, fill all the holding tanks and wind up "in a overweight status" but, just like flying an airplane or riding a motorcycle, situational awareness is vital... There really should be no "DUH, I didn't realize I was adding weight when filling my holding tanks"...

We routinely dry camp in remote areas. We go in "weighing close to GVWR" and we leave "lighter than we arrived". How? We leave the cans that food was in, we burn the firewood, we use some propane and we burn most of the paper products in the campfire. There's pit toilets, so we leave some extra weight there as well.... The only thing we add is several pounds of fish fillets or a couple of rabbits or birds in the freezer. Otherwise, we leave lighter even though the holding tanks are full.
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Old 05-13-2022, 05:11 PM   #13
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Well the really sad part to this having NOT watched the video.
Many new 5th wheels we have looked at in the 36’ to 40’+ range, come with payloads as small as 2,500#, which is pretty small considering wast water might be part of the 2,500#.
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Old 05-13-2022, 05:22 PM   #14
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Well the really sad part to this having NOT watched the video.
Many new 5th wheels we have looked at in the 36’ to 40’+ range, come with payloads as small as 2,500#, which is pretty small considering wast water might be part of the 2,500#.
mine has listed on the keystone site around 1900 lbs of cargo carrying capacity…but on the sticker it says around 1100 lbs cargo because the weight of the freshwater is included …if i had full fresh water and full wastewater i would have about 200 lbs of available cargo…it doesn’t say that on the keystone website when they advertise the cargo capacity which most people would assume is the weight of grills,bikes and odds and ends

edit: went to watkins glen state park …went in with full cargo and empty tanks , they have electric only sites with a water spigot centrally located that you use to fill your onboard tank..when i left most of my tanks were close to full but luckily it was a short drive to the dump station…wouldn’t be good to skip that till the next campground
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Old 05-13-2022, 06:10 PM   #15
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mine has listed on the keystone site around 1900 lbs of cargo carrying capacity…but on the sticker it says around 1100 lbs cargo because the weight of the freshwater is included …if i had full fresh water and full wastewater i would have about 200 lbs of available cargo…it doesn’t say that on the keystone website when they advertise the cargo capacity which most people would assume is the weight of grills,bikes and odds and ends

edit: went to watkins glen state park …went in with full cargo and empty tanks , they have electric only sites with a water spigot centrally located that you use to fill your onboard tank..when i left most of my tanks were close to full but luckily it was a short drive to the dump station…wouldn’t be good to skip that till the next campground
Well our 32’ 5er has a 2,106# with full fresh water tank 45 gallons, and full propane 60#.
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Old 05-14-2022, 04:27 AM   #16
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Watching the video you realize this was not about GVWR. Jayco tried to claim that carrying ANY water would void the warranty. Seems that the owner was traveling with about a 1/3 tank of fresh water when the brackets holding the water tank broke and it dropped down onto his black tank discharge pipe breaking it. New trailer and Jayco denied warranty because they said you should NEVER travel with any water. Even if you are going dry camping. Didn't make sense then and doesn't now and the owner persevered until finally Jayco honored the warranty. GRWR came in when one of the Jayco reps tried to use that as an excuse for not doing what was right.
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Old 05-14-2022, 04:40 AM   #17
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Watching the video you realize this was not about GVWR. Jayco tried to claim that carrying ANY water would void the warranty. Seems that the owner was traveling with about a 1/3 tank of fresh water when the brackets holding the water tank broke and it dropped down onto his black tank discharge pipe breaking it. New trailer and Jayco denied warranty because they said you should NEVER travel with any water. Even if you are going dry camping. Didn't make sense then and doesn't now and the owner persevered until finally Jayco honored the warranty. GRWR came in when one of the Jayco reps tried to use that as an excuse for not doing what was right.
the video is what got me thinking about how they determine the gvwr…that was my point..i asssumed all full holding tanks were included…the same as how trucks payload is figured with number of passengers and full tank of fuel included depending on truck manufacturer
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Old 05-14-2022, 05:08 AM   #18
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mine has listed on the keystone site around 1900 lbs of cargo carrying capacity…but on the sticker it says around 1100 lbs cargo because the weight of the freshwater is included …if i had full fresh water and full wastewater i would have about 200 lbs of available cargo…it doesn’t say that on the keystone website when they advertise the cargo capacity which most people would assume is the weight of grills,bikes and odds and ends
Just curious, what situation would ever require both fresh and waste tanks to be full? If you go dry camping, you head out with full fresh and empty waste tanks, when you come back, waste may be full, but fresh would be empty. I can’t think of any situation when both would be full. I think you’re over thinking this.
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Old 05-14-2022, 05:10 AM   #19
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the video is what got me thinking about how they determine the gvwr…that was my point..i asssumed all full holding tanks were included…the same as how trucks payload is figured with number of passengers and full tank of fuel included depending on truck manufacturer
What is really scary is that many larger (longer) 5th wheels have very small Payloads! I have been in a situation where I traveled home about 150 miles with full Black and Grey tanks, one black and two grey. I was more worried about the weight going over tall mountain pass than exceeding GVWR.
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Old 05-14-2022, 05:13 AM   #20
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Just curious, what situation would ever require both fresh and waste tanks to be full? If you go dry camping, you head out with full fresh and empty waste tanks, when you come back, waste may be full, but fresh would be empty. I can’t think of any situation when both would be full. I think you’re over thinking this.
post #14.. when i left the campsite to head to the dump station …all three tanks were close to full ..i filled up fresh water again in middle of trip with a couple of hoses…it was about a mile to the dump station. just thinking it isn’t good to overload the tires and axles even for short distances…i guess i’m overthinking but if i had skipped the dump station until the next campground that wouldn’t have been good for the rv..
with all three full tanks i have about two to three hundred pounds of available payload…wouldn’t be a problem if the axles and tires weren’t on the very edge of minimum
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