Dealer vs. % formula for pin weight?

[jsb5717]

Originally Posted by Pathman

Yes TT, I’m solid with the 23% thing, even though I personally think you guys are way too conservative with that, but I’m not experienced enough to dispute it with factual data, so I’ll take your collective experience for what it’s worth, and I do appreciate it.
That being said, I cut him off immediately when he asked what my towing capacity of my truck was, told him it didn’t matter, just like you all advised!��

At the beginning of the thread you said 5th wheel. If you're looking at a travel trailer, vs a 5th wheel, then it's not 23%. It's more like 15% of GVWR for calculating pin weight.

Edit: Oops...I realize now you were answering Texans, not referring to a travel trailer. Sorry

[Pathman]

Originally Posted by Gkri

All i know is that after reading this forum for the last year and taking a lot of their combined wisdom to heart, i feel a much safer RV'er out on the road. I think many are uptight because they have seen first hand and on You-Tube videos what can happen with an overloaded TV. Not only can you get injured but maybe one of the other forum members or their family members could be on the road with an unsafe TV RV combo.

I agree G, that’s why I’m here trying to get info and learn the ropes of the fifth wheel deal.
I participate in many forums of other types, and they are a wealth of knowledge and experience, no doubt.
I always find there’s a reasonable balance between the two extremes of any issue, that’s why I ask so many questions, to try and find the balance.

[jasin1]

Originally Posted by Pathman

You’re a funny guy George, even though you’re a bit of an Ahole.
I didn’t say I believed him, that’s the entire reason I asked for your expert opinions on whether what he was saying was accurate or not. I’m well past all the calculations, that was last week.
This is not what this specific question was about, this was strictly about the process the salesman claimed Keystone used, and if there was any truth to it.

Hey, let’s be clear here, I don’t know any of you from Adam either, so why should I trust any of you crusty old codgers as far as I can carry you?!!!�� for all I know, the lot of you sit in your smoky trailers all day long with a calculator weighing every ounce of stuff that goes in and out!��*♂️��

Listen, I’m having a little fun with you guys because you’re way too uptight about all this, the fact that I’ve never been to a fifth dealer before puts me at a loss to counteract the typical salesman’s BS, that’s why I’m asking questions, it’s not because I believe what he’s telling me, it’s because I don’t!

ahole? not a very nice way to introduce yourself to the forum…George has been around the block a few times and was trying to help..often times it seems people can’t or won’t hear…maybe he was getting that vibe…we usually try and be civil on this site …usually lol

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by Pathman

I agree G, that’s why I’m here trying to get info and learn the ropes of the fifth wheel deal.
I participate in many forums of other types, and they are a wealth of knowledge and experience, no doubt.
I always find there’s a reasonable balance between the two extremes of any issue, that’s why I ask so many questions, to try and find the balance.

^^^^Therein lies your problem. The comments you have received on this forum are not "extreme", they're real life, accurate and doing their best to repeatedly answer your questions. The sales manager you spoke with is the one that is extreme....and totally ignorant of RVs. I have met and dealt with many SalesMgrs/GMs at RV dealerships and I can absolutely say that 90+% of them will not have a clue about the specifics of most any trailer and particularly about weights - they don't know and don't care. They want you to buy an RV - just trust them!! Anyone that believes an RV salesman who tells you there are no holding tanks in front of the axles in an RV needs to do a LOT of due diligence to figure out what's in an RV and forget a clueless, extreme sales manager - or go with him and ignore the folks trying to help.

There IS no balancing between the input from this forum and/or other seasoned towers vs ANY sales person at ANY RV dealership ANYWHERE! I've been to tons of them and the "sales" folks are all the same - clueless.

[Pathman]

Originally Posted by jasin1

ahole? not a very nice way to introduce yourself to the forum…George has been around the block a few times and was trying to help..often times it seems people can’t or won’t hear…maybe he was getting that vibe…we usually try and be civil on this site …usually lol

He may have experience, but that doesn’t mean he needs to degrade me when I’m asking simple questions, that’s not being very civil in my view. Read his response again.

[flybouy]

Pathman I'll render my advice. First let's be adults and not continue with the adhominum attacks. Second, step back and do some more research. Confirm what you have been told. Don't take our word for the 23%. That's a common middle ground number as a matter of fact for the industry wide estimate that pin weight is typically 20-25% of tgwr. So yes, 23% is not "extreem".

I'd suggest your first stop should be keystonrv.com and take a look around. Look at the FAQ section where they address this. Then maybe look at Etrailer.com. They also have very helpful Q & A sections as well.

[Pathman]

Originally Posted by sourdough

^^^^Therein lies your problem. The comments you have received on this forum are not "extreme", they're real life, accurate and doing their best to repeatedly answer your questions. The sales manager you spoke with is the one that is extreme....and totally ignorant of RVs. I have met and dealt with many SalesMgrs/GMs at RV dealerships and I can absolutely say that 90+% of them will not have a clue about the specifics of most any trailer and particularly about weights - they don't know and don't care. They want you to buy an RV - just trust them!! Anyone that believes an RV salesman who tells you there are no holding tanks in front of the axles in an RV needs to do a LOT of due diligence to figure out what's in an RV and forget a clueless, extreme sales manager - or go with him and ignore the folks trying to help.

There IS no balancing between the input from this forum and/or other seasoned towers vs ANY sales person at ANY RV dealership ANYWHERE! I've been to tons of them and the "sales" folks are all the same - clueless.

Not disputing that, I dislike salesman as much as the next guy, but my inexperience with fifth wheels and towing, puts me at a loss to cut through his BS, hence my questions here.
Maybe I misstated the “balance” comment. What I meant was, I’ve seen it listed in various places that the percentage for pin weight is between 15-25%, so I was referring to the use of 23% as the “extreme” end of the spectrum for pin weight calculation.

I plainly see that the majority of you use the 23%, so I wonder what caused you to use the higher end of the spectrum, was it just out of an over abundance of caution, or is there some magic number where things start falling apart on your fifth wheel when you reach that number?
Please don’t take my questions as being dismissive of your collective experience, but I’m the type that wants to know the why and how of an answer, not just the answer itself. You can’t learn if you simply except answers from others without the knowledge to figure it out on your own, or know the facts behind how the answers are reached.

[Pathman]

Originally Posted by flybouy

Pathman I'll render my advice. First let's be adults and not continue with the adhominum attacks. Second, step back and do some more research. Confirm what you have been told. Don't take our word for the 23%. That's a common middle ground number as a matter of fact for the industry wide estimate that pin weight is typically 20-25% of tgwr. So yes, 23% is not "extreem".

I'd suggest your first stop should be keystonrv.com and take a look around. Look at the FAQ section where they address this. Then maybe look at Etrailer.com. They also have very helpful Q & A sections as well.

I appreciate your advice FB, I have no problem being an adult as long as Im treated as one.

See my earlier comment regarding the 23%.

I’ll take a look at those sites, thanks!

[jsb5717]

Perhaps some real data would help.

What 5er is the OP looking at? I'm guessing he already has a truck and is trying to figure out how to justify using it...that's usually the case anyway.

The folks on this site are quite knowledgeable and helpful. However, this topic comes up ALOT. The answers are always the same and have been repeated the hundreds of times the topic comes up. That's OK...One of the key tenets of this forum is safety. Not everyone likes the answers. But that won't change the information. The folks here don't care if the data makes newbies feels good or not. Folks will choose to be safe or they won't. The key tenet of the dealer is to sell an RV. They want the buyer to feel good about their purchase. They will do their best to make you feel good and buy their product. Your safety, sadly, isn't one of their primary concerns.

The info here comes at no cost to the newbie and there's nothing to be gained here except the satisfaction of providing good information that may prevent an unnecessary accident.

[Pathman]

Originally Posted by jsb5717

Perhaps some real data would help.

What 5er is the OP looking at? I'm guessing he already has a truck and is trying to figure out how to justify using it...that's usually the case anyway.

The folks on this site are quite knowledgeable and helpful. However, this topic comes up ALOT. The answers are always the same and have been repeated the hundreds of times the topic comes up. That's OK...One of the key tenets of this forum is safety. Not everyone likes the answers. But that won't change the information. The folks here don't care if the data makes newbies feels good or not. Folks will choose to be safe or they won't. The key tenet of the dealer is to sell an RV. They want the buyer to feel good about their purchase. They will do their best to make you feel good and buy their product. Your safety, sadly, isn't one of their primary concerns.

The info here comes at no cost to the newbie and there's nothing to be gained here except the satisfaction of providing good information that may prevent an unnecessary accident.

I’m not looking to rehash the calculations JSB, I already got closed down for asking too many questions regarding that.🤦*♂️😁
This new post was simply to get an idea of the accuracy of what the dealers are telling customers about the process of determine pin weight, vs. the process everyone here advocates.
But to answer your question about actual data, I looked at a Cougar 290RLS, which according to the 23% rule, is too heavy for my Ram 2500 6.4 Hemi with 4:10 ratio.

I then looked at the Cougar 29 RLI, which is ~200# too heavy using the 23% rule.

These two RVs were considered after my first tour of a Montana HC which was way-way too big and heavy for my truck.

[Pathman]

As I mentioned earlier, I dislike car salesman as much as the next guy, and typically beat them up pretty good when purchasing a vehicle.
That being said, I’m having a hard time reconciling that RV dealers (with a much higher responsibility to passenger safety and vehicle integrity then car dealers) could continue to sell unsuspecting RVers hugely oversized RVs for dozens of years, and not be sued out of business or heavily fined for misleading the consumer.
How can they be getting away with this for so long? Wouldn’t we here about constant crashes of RVs, or dealerships getting in trouble for these type of practices?
Sleazy car salesmen are one thing, no one gets hurt or is put in danger by a rip off new car dealer, but to hear you all tell it, these dealers are putting peoples lives at risk constantly for decades by giving misleading information regarding tow vehicles, I just find this hard to believe.
Am I off base, or is your collective level of concern with these weight calculations a little bit too aggressive? What instances can you all site that shows the misinformation from dealers is causing safety issues, vehicle breakdowns, and or any type of mishaps from their information?

Again, just asking, I have no connection to any dealer or salesperson!��

[chuckster57]

Originally Posted by Pathman

As I mentioned earlier, I dislike car salesman as much as the next guy, and typically beat them up pretty good when purchasing a vehicle.
That being said, I’m having a hard time reconciling that RV dealers (with a much higher responsibility to passenger safety and vehicle integrity then car dealers) could continue to sell unsuspecting RVers hugely oversized RVs for dozens of years, and not be sued out of business or heavily fined for misleading the consumer.
How can they be getting away with this for so long? Wouldn’t we here about constant crashes of RVs, or dealerships getting in trouble for these type of practices?
Sleazy car salesmen are one thing, no one gets hurt or is put in danger by a rip off new car dealer, but to hear you all tell it, these dealers are putting peoples lives at risk constantly for decades by giving misleading information regarding tow vehicles, I just find this hard to believe.
Am I off base, or is your collective level of concern with these weight calculations a little bit too aggressive? What instances can you all site that shows the misinformation from dealers is causing safety issues, vehicle breakdowns, and or any type of mishaps from their information?

Again, just asking, I have no connection to any dealer or salesperson!��

Any salesperson in any capacity or industry is hired to do one thing, MAKE THE SALE. If you think that rv sales staff should be “responsible” for selling an overloaded trailer, I’m sorry but you need to rethink the whole process.

You have been given solid advise time and time again, it may be about time to take the knowledge willingly imparted to you and stop trying to overthink and dissect it over and over again.

Yes you did have a thread closed after the question was asked multiple times with the SAME answer. This thread is about there.

[markcee]

Originally Posted by Pathman

I’ve seen it listed in various places that the percentage for pin weight is between 15-25%, so I was referring to the use of 23% as the “extreme” end of the spectrum for pin weight calculation.

One comment on this, I believe you will see 15%-25% as the recommended safe range percentage for the pin weight. Pretty certain this is what is published in the Ford RV & Trailer towing guide, and likely in their vehicle manuals as well.

What you won't see is someone that actually CAT scaled their loaded 5th wheel and came in at that 15% percentage....at least I haven't in the daily reading of this and other RV and truck forums over the last few years.

Maybe a Scamp or some other oddity, but don't think a legitimate, ready for camping 5th wheel will ever come in on the low end of that range.

[wrvond]

Originally Posted by Pathman

As I mentioned earlier, I dislike car salesman as much as the next guy, and typically beat them up pretty good when purchasing a vehicle.
That being said, I’m having a hard time reconciling that RV dealers (with a much higher responsibility to passenger safety and vehicle integrity then car dealers) could continue to sell unsuspecting RVers hugely oversized RVs for dozens of years, and not be sued out of business or heavily fined for misleading the consumer.
How can they be getting away with this for so long? Wouldn’t we here about constant crashes of RVs, or dealerships getting in trouble for these type of practices?
Sleazy car salesmen are one thing, no one gets hurt or is put in danger by a rip off new car dealer, but to hear you all tell it, these dealers are putting peoples lives at risk constantly for decades by giving misleading information regarding tow vehicles, I just find this hard to believe.
Am I off base, or is your collective level of concern with these weight calculations a little bit too aggressive? What instances can you all site that shows the misinformation from dealers is causing safety issues, vehicle breakdowns, and or any type of mishaps from their information?

Again, just asking, I have no connection to any dealer or salesperson!��

For starters, the prevailing attitude is that it is the buyer's responsibility to ensure the safe operation of the equipment under their control.
Second, no salesman is going to put in writing that your truck will for sure safely tow any given camper. Just isn't going to happen.
Third, when a sales person says "Sure, your truck will pull that camper all day long!" he or she is only claiming it will pull it. They aren't saying it'll handle well or making any other claims. I'm rather fond of pointing out that a Toyota Tundra will tow a space shuttle, but you don't see them setting the nose wheel in the bed!
If you are sitting at the parking lot exit wanting to turn left and there's a line of cars in front of you up to the light and a driver leaves you a space and waves you through. If you get hit, is it that driver's fault or yours? There is a plethora of YouTube videos showing RV crashes caused by improper loading. That said, there are plenty of people that pull over loaded and don't crash and burn. We've even got one or two on these forums that will tell you that weight doesn't matter as long as you don't exceed the rear axle weight rating.
Ultimately, only you can decide how much safety margin you want or need.
I have a dually with over 5000 pounds cargo carrying capacity so I didn't have to worry about pin weights or any of that stuff. It just happens that the 10000 pound GVWR camper I bought fit my needs the best. Now I "don't even know it's back there"!

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by Pathman

Yes TT, I’m solid with the 23% thing, even though I personally think you guys are way too conservative with that, but I’m not experienced enough to dispute it with factual data, so I’ll take your collective experience for what it’s worth, and I do appreciate it.
That being said, I cut him off immediately when he asked what my towing capacity of my truck was, told him it didn’t matter, just like you all advised!😁

The use of 22%/23% for pin weight is pretty solid for a 5th wheel. We run 22%, with a small basement, basements now are larger than ours. What you also need to understand that there are other things that reduce payload, passengers, hitch, and anything else you add to your truck.
I have not read every post, it sounds like you already have your truck. Load it up ready to go on a trip and take to a public or Cat scales and get your weigh and subtract from your trucks GVWR, then you will know the maximum pin you can carry.

[flybouy]

It's not Ram, or Ford, or GM or any other truck manufacturers responsibility if you overload your truck. It's not the RV dealer responsibility to only sell you the trailer if you have a capable truck to tow it with. Look around and you'll see these disclaimers on each of their websites, in the brochures, and likely in the "fine print" of the purchasing contract.

As far as you asking questions help yourself, it won't however make your truck more capable or the trailer any lighter. At the end of the day just don't expect the conversation to continue with folks who have tired from repeating themselves. I wish you good luck in your pursuits.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by Pathman

As I mentioned earlier, I dislike car salesman as much as the next guy, and typically beat them up pretty good when purchasing a vehicle.
That being said, I’m having a hard time reconciling that RV dealers (with a much higher responsibility to passenger safety and vehicle integrity then car dealers) could continue to sell unsuspecting RVers hugely oversized RVs for dozens of years, and not be sued out of business or heavily fined for misleading the consumer.
How can they be getting away with this for so long? Wouldn’t we here about constant crashes of RVs, or dealerships getting in trouble for these type of practices?
Sleazy car salesmen are one thing, no one gets hurt or is put in danger by a rip off new car dealer, but to hear you all tell it, these dealers are putting peoples lives at risk constantly for decades by giving misleading information regarding tow vehicles, I just find this hard to believe.
Am I off base, or is your collective level of concern with these weight calculations a little bit too aggressive? What instances can you all site that shows the misinformation from dealers is causing safety issues, vehicle breakdowns, and or any type of mishaps from their information?

Again, just asking, I have no connection to any dealer or salesperson!��

You're not trying to learn, you are trolling and at the same time questioning good folks' zillions of miles of experience. Thread closed...again.