PLEASE Discuss Weights and Towing

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by sourdough

This comment is a little off topic from the original "upsizing axles" but falls in line with the last few comments and does have a bearing on the original topic in that respect.

As newbies, overloading, lack of experience and situations they might find themselves in are discussed I will say this;

I thought last year was bad with all the new folks buying RVs, clueless, and trying to get to RV parks and "unwind". Well, this year puts last year in the shade. I never dreamed I would see SO many people with RVs trying to "get away". Since we left in Oct. and arrived here in Nov. those numbers of folks continues to climb. I thought it was bad over the winter but since Feb. this park, which is still building new sites, is full continually with folks pulling in daily it seems. Heck, they even agree to take sites still under construction.

When the owner was contemplating the park expansion (about triple in size) I discussed her plans with her and chose the space I wanted for my yearly stays then she built it up for me - very nice of her. When we discussed I told her "build it and they will come"...and they have. In my walks around the park you run into all kinds of units people are getting, from 40 year old dilapidated, no slide TTs to brand new 5th wheels and Class A diesel pushers - and everything in between. In those walks I try to visit a bit with folks I meet and they run the gamut, from experienced, old time RVers to brand new, green owners....LOTS of brand new, green owners - maiden voyage green. Many of the green folks know nothing more than what the salesman told them when they drove off and they are now trying to learn "on the fly". Those folks have no earthly idea of loading, weights, axles, tires, wheels etc. etc. All they know is if they can stuff it in and it will "go" they're golden - which ties right back in to the previous comments and the topic of the thread.

The above is a post I made yesterday noting all the new folks to RVs and situations they could encounter. Strangely that same topic came up today...again.

I was in the office this morning paying my bill and visiting with another tenant. A fellow came in, crutch under one arm, and patiently waited for us to acknowledge him. First time RVer; maiden voyage from GA; had no idea about his trailer and had a full tank (grey) he didn't know how to drain. Went with him and found the drain handle back under the trailer behind the extended slide. Pulled it and told him to leave it pulled; that crutch was because he had just had hip surgery and it would be another 3-4 months before he could "get down".

To the point; tried fixing up his draining situation and noted his "rig" which I mentioned. Brand new Cougar 364BHL - nice looking trailer. Tow vehicle? Looked like about a 2017 Ram 1500...1500! The trailer is 14k gvw and 40+' long. An older man, with his wife, just retired and sold their home with the intent to "travel the country".....with that rig?? I was shocked and saddened. He was speaking so excitedly about being able to "hit the road" and explore the country. I told him "are you sure about that trailer on that truck? Sure looks like it will be overloaded". "Nah, I should be OK. It's a big trailer and I was worried but the guy at the dealership said my truck should pull it just fine"!! Ram 1500, short bed, 5.7L.

At the above point I mentioned weights to the fella but he said he was leaving within 30 minutes to get back to GA for his daughter's wedding but would be back in about 8 days. I should have been blunt with him but had no time to talk with him. I should have done something but I didn't - he left on his way back to GA and then back to here - an accident waiting to happen - and has no idea. My bad.

If we have the opportunity at any time I would encourage any member to visit with not only members but other folks that are interested in purchasing an RV. Talk about the weights; lengths; and everything else we talk about BEFORE they become this guy. Happy, clueless, thinks everything is AOK. I will be having a serious conversation with him when he returns. It's still a dang shame that happens and aggravates me greatly for it to happen to anyone.

[Javi]

At some point you just have to accept that you can't save everyone.

I'll try to help those who realize that they need help, but the others are not worth the time and effort at this point in my life. I'll spend the few moments I have left making a difference for those who seek the knowledge.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by Javi

At some point you just have to accept that you can't save everyone.

I'll try to help those who realize that they need help, but the others are not worth the time and effort at this point in my life. I'll spend the few moments I have left making a difference for those who seek the knowledge.

A fault of mine I guess. Unfortunately these folks, like so many others, have no idea they need help so don't know to ask. I'm a tough row to hoe for most folks but innocents, through no fault of their own, sort of fall on my soft side.

[dutchmensport]

What you are attempting to do sounds a lot like what I tried to do with religion,... literally I felt it was an obligation to save the world. I learned, you know, the old expression .... You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. It is so true with religion, politics, and the tow vehicles! Tow vehicles are such a touchy subject with so many.

It isn't until a total calamity happens in someone's life, or they hit absolute rock bottom before they are even suggestive to accept religious ideas, even if they've heard the same presentation a hundred thousand times in their lives before.

The absolute same is true with regards to some people and their vehicles, especially their tow vehicles. Until they experience a calamity with their tow vehicle, no matter what anyone says, their tow vehicle is absolutely adequate. You are free to talk and discuss all you want, but in the end, they won't change or make changes because its an inconvenience for them, their finances, and especially their EGO! How dare you tell anyone they are wrong! You are now being judgmental, critical, condescending, you don't understand their "unique" situation, you have no right to stick your nose in their business so just mind your own business, who made you judge, jury, and executioner anyway! Really, that is the mind set with it comes to some people.

Blessed are those who take heed before they discover the hard way. But those folks are rare, far and few in-between.

So, all you can do is just present the facts and leave the information in their lap. It's up to them to actually pick it up and do something with it. And if they will not take heed, you have done your best.

To use a Biblical reference, "Shake the dust off your feet and move on."

[Laredo Tugger]

There needs to be accountability the moment he hooks up to that trailer for the first time, yes I mean the dealership. What that gentleman was lead to believe and proceed with was criminal on the part of the RV dealer. You know that guy is going to have a blow out on the truck and loose control or loose his transmission on a steep grade and we know what that result will be.
My point. Why are dealerships allowed to get away with this? Are we so hungry for economy that we are willing to risk innocent lives on our roads and highways? I'm calling BS!
I have heard of dealerships that will not hook up to an inadequate TV, but there is no regulation over this engagement. Some type of chart numbers needs to be developed and enforced. The above mentioned sales people have some notion of decency and can go home and sleep at night. There's some guy in GA who doesn't care. Got his sale, got his commission. good luck to ya old man!
Again BS!!!
RMc

[Badbart56]

Originally Posted by sourdough

The above is a post I made yesterday noting all the new folks to RVs and situations they could encounter. Strangely that same topic came up today...again.

I was in the office this morning paying my bill and visiting with another tenant. A fellow came in, crutch under one arm, and patiently waited for us to acknowledge him. First time RVer; maiden voyage from GA; had no idea about his trailer and had a full tank (grey) he didn't know how to drain. Went with him and found the drain handle back under the trailer behind the extended slide. Pulled it and told him to leave it pulled; that crutch was because he had just had hip surgery and it would be another 3-4 months before he could "get down".

To the point; tried fixing up his draining situation and noted his "rig" which I mentioned. Brand new Cougar 364BHL - nice looking trailer. Tow vehicle? Looked like about a 2017 Ram 1500...1500! The trailer is 14k gvw and 40+' long. An older man, with his wife, just retired and sold their home with the intent to "travel the country".....with that rig?? I was shocked and saddened. He was speaking so excitedly about being able to "hit the road" and explore the country. I told him "are you sure about that trailer on that truck? Sure looks like it will be overloaded". "Nah, I should be OK. It's a big trailer and I was worried but the guy at the dealership said my truck should pull it just fine"!! Ram 1500, short bed, 5.7L.

At the above point I mentioned weights to the fella but he said he was leaving within 30 minutes to get back to GA for his daughter's wedding but would be back in about 8 days. I should have been blunt with him but had no time to talk with him. I should have done something but I didn't - he left on his way back to GA and then back to here - an accident waiting to happen - and has no idea. My bad.

If we have the opportunity at any time I would encourage any member to visit with not only members but other folks that are interested in purchasing an RV. Talk about the weights; lengths; and everything else we talk about BEFORE they become this guy. Happy, clueless, thinks everything is AOK. I will be having a serious conversation with him when he returns. It's still a dang shame that happens and aggravates me greatly for it to happen to anyone.

Danny, as you know we are literally on the road 24/7 for weeks at a time. I still can't believe some of the rigs I see out here. I've seen a Ram 1500 with a gooseneck pulling a bulldozer! With commercial for hire signs on the doors! I've seen F-150's pulling travel trailers with the back bumper almost dragging the ground. Lot's of half tons with a fifth wheel hitch towing 30+ foot 10,000+ pound campers! I really am surprised that the transmissions don't go up in smoke. Actually I've seen some of the smaller SUV's on the side of the road with just that issue. It's like, if it's got wheels and it's a "truck" it'll pull it just fine!

I wish I could get pictures but I'm either driving or I encounter them so suddenly that there;s no time to get a shot.

I wish the DOT/FMCSA officers would do something about them instead of focusing on our class 8 trucks so much but I'm sure it's a revenue thing. I'm amazed that there are not more crashes than there are related to this. They try to tow at interstate speeds but are often unable to maintain even 55 mph and are a hazard to all us commercial trucks running 70-80 mph. It's hard to get rolling when you lose momentum in an 80,000 rig. Plus they nearly get blown off the road when they don't even have any form of sway control.

Kudos to you and others for speaking up on this forum. I see where many folks get educated on here and most of them express their gratitude. There's always a few that will remain hard headed but what can you do?

[Gegrad]

Wow Danny... I think that might take the cake for worst overload I have ever seen or heard of.... at least the goober I saw towing a 40' 5th wheel with a 3/4 ton diesel in summer 2020 had a HD truck (even if they were 1000 lbs overweight). This guy was probably 1500-2000 lbs overweight on a half ton truck! Sheesh.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by Gegrad

Wow Danny... I think that might take the cake for worst overload I have ever seen or heard of.... at least the goober I saw towing a 40' 5th wheel with a 3/4 ton diesel in summer 2020 had a HD truck (even if they were 1000 lbs overweight). This guy was probably 1500-2000 lbs overweight on a half ton truck! Sheesh.

Complete ignorance and the desire to "be free". It all seems so "easy" and 2 old people set out on their end life adventures - mislead and wrong. Sad to me.

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by Gegrad

Wow Danny... I think that might take the cake for worst overload I have ever seen or heard of.... at least the goober I saw towing a 40' 5th wheel with a 3/4 ton diesel in summer 2020 had a HD truck (even if they were 1000 lbs overweight). This guy was probably 1500-2000 lbs overweight on a half ton truck! Sheesh.

**** Please Note This is NOT an endorsement to tow over GVWR *******

Well while I agree that the dealer should not sell a large 5er to someone with a half ton it would be interesting to know how it tows.

I will say as this post seems to deal with over loaded TV and 5er's, I was close to those numbers with our old 2001 Ram 2500 pulling and carrying our fat 12,320# 5er. We full time, and have a very full front full width closet, and while smaller, a very well packed basement. This resulted in a 2,700# pin. The Ram had the Camper Package which included the same springs as the 3500 DRW, with no change to the GVWR! This eliminated any need for Air Bags. Looking back we towed the current 5er for about 4.5 years with that TV.

It is the curse of the 5er, that being, the towing experience doesn't become white knuckle until one is like the 40' with 1/2 ton.

Before we got the 2016 Ram 3500 Laramie DRW, we were 1,700# over GVWR, on that Ram's 8,800# GVWR. We were still under the axle and tire ratings. How did it tow, well it towed very well, it handled fine, never felt pushed by the 5er, never an issue stopping, the only issue was getting moving off the line with a 3.55 rear gear and a 5 speed manual. I knew we were pushing, and the legal limbo issue bugged me, but it towed and handled fine.
I considered getting a newer Ram 3500 SRW, but doing the math on what our trucks curb weight should have been, and what we weighed ready to tow 7,800#, basic calculations on even a 4,200# Payload 1,400# of passengers, hitch, and stuff, and 2,700# pin comes to 4,100#, not much wiggle room. I also figured going from a 2500 to 3500 was a lateral move no extra stability.
Well very happy with the 3500 DRW, no issues with parking, and the towing experience is even more relaxing than before. Both trucks were Laramie trim, but that sure improved in 15 years!

My point here is that the TV and 5er will likely never "Tell" the driver that he is over weight, only a trip through the scales will tell you that!!

**** Once Again Note This is NOT an endorsement to tow over GVWR ***

[sourdough]

Russ the point of the post was not how easy it is to tow a 5th wheel overweight or all the weights you ran when you were overweight - you've said that many times. The point is how easy it is for folks, totally ignorant, to walk into what I consider a dangerous situation. You chose to do that, these folks have no idea. They were not told, as they should have been, that there was a red flag with that combo. And, as new buyers they should have had the right to assume that the seller of the RV would guide them....that didn't, and doesn't, happen. Bad deal IMO. I was suggesting that those experienced in towing and weights maybe take that step to discuss those things if they know anyone contemplating an RV purchase...nothing more.

[LHaven]

Originally Posted by dutchmensport

What you are attempting to do sounds a lot like what I tried to do with religion,... literally I felt it was an obligation to save the world. I learned, you know, the old expression .... You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. It is so true with religion, politics, and the tow vehicles! Tow vehicles are such a touchy subject with so many.

It isn't until a total calamity happens in someone's life, or they hit absolute rock bottom before they are even suggestive to accept religious ideas, even if they've heard the same presentation a hundred thousand times in their lives before.

Some part of the problem is surely the people who've been told they're in trouble and have decided to ignore it... but I suspect more of the problem is people who have no idea they're in trouble (often because the dealer glad-handed them).

Yeah, you can't force someone to take good advice, but at least they should have the opportunity to hear the good advice.

The worst part is that if people heard the advice before they invested in the wrong trailer or TV they'd be much more apt to do the right thing than if they hear the advice only after they're stuck with their wrong choice, and have a financial incentive not to listen.

[bsmith0404]

When it was selling RVs, I tried to warn people, if they still went forward with the sale, I would at least give them advise to help their situation such as upgrading from P to LT tires. IMO, the worst ones were the ones who “knew more than me”. The guys with a 2500 RAM with a 6” lift, air bags, and a chipped Cummins (no offense to the RAM owners, just seemed to have “that guy” a lot) who said his truck could pull a 43’ triple axle toy hauler with no problem. As for the dealership, most of them have never towed an RV. I can honestly say the GM and sales managers had never owned an RV, along with 70% of the sales staff and 80% of the parts department. The only thing they’re told to do is look it up in the towing guide. If the tow guide says they can pull it, it’s good to go, nothing else matters.

[notanlines]

The newest truck in our RV park (bought on Sunday in Florida) is a 2022 Ram 1500 Big Horn, crew cab, 2wd, short bed. His cargo capacity is about 1820 pounds if I remember correctly. A great looking dark red color, but no running boards....go figure. DW and I had to drive our own vehicle to go out to eat because she can't get in his truck without the running board.

Let's use my friend's truck as an example. The OP's RV grosses 14,000 giving a pin weight just over 3,200 pounds. Probably pretty close because they plan to 'full time.'
I know y'all will fill in the blanks from there and with all the things you'll list will put him and Momma 2,000 pounds over cargo capacity of that truck. And even worse, this is all on P rated tires.
Danny, I don't know how you would have handled this differently. I just don't have a clue.

[jasin1]

It seems people are letting their wallet have priority over their safety…I notice Ram trucks is offering 0% interest for 72 months on 1500 trucks.

“ look hon if we get this truck we will have the money for a bigger fifth wheel”

If you had to jump out of an airplane would you choose a parachute based off of price alone? Or scuba equipment ? …when it comes to barreling down the highway overloaded people seem to conveniently ignore all warning signs.

I wonder if everyone else in the truck is aware of the safety concerns

[Javi]

Originally Posted by sourdough

A fault of mine I guess. Unfortunately these folks, like so many others, have no idea they need help so don't know to ask. I'm a tough row to hoe for most folks but innocents, through no fault of their own, sort of fall on my soft side.

The silliness of the last few years have toughened my callouses for the adults who need warning signs to get through life unscathed..

Yes... Coffee is hot, and if you pour it in your lap it will burn you...

No.. do NOT pull the trigger while looking in the muzzle...

Yes... all dogs will bite if provoked

et cetera, et cetera

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by sourdough

Russ the point of the post was not how easy it is to tow a 5th wheel overweight or all the weights you ran when you were overweight - you've said that many times. The point is how easy it is for folks, totally ignorant, to walk into what I consider a dangerous situation. You chose to do that, these folks have no idea. They were not told, as they should have been, that there was a red flag with that combo. And, as new buyers they should have had the right to assume that the seller of the RV would guide them....that didn't, and doesn't, happen. Bad deal IMO. I was suggesting that those experienced in towing and weights maybe take that step to discuss those things if they know anyone contemplating an RV purchase...nothing more.

Danny, well likely didn't get my point across as clearly as I wanted. Most likely as 2001 Ram GVWR was a low percentage of the axle ratings. Now days the GVWR is a very high percentage of axle ratings and with a diesel the tow rating is through the roof.
Telling a new buyer with a SRW diesel with a tow rating of 22,000# that they can only safely carry the pin weight of a 16,000# 5er.
When you consider that many SRW diesel long beds have payloads of 4,000#+, pushing that at all will exceed their rear axle rating, and likely tire rating.

This is a case of ignorance is NOT bliss!

So many want to push the limits of the 3500 SRW because they see a DRW as a monster truck. In our case our Ram DRW is our only vehicle, and we drive it every where. It is just under 6' 8" tall and can go in most parking garages.

The other is those that want a 45' 5er that is 8' 6" wide but don't want that big DRW truck to tow it with because it is tooooooo big!

[JRTJH]

Unfortunately, I don't see any "change in enforcement" on the horizon. Until a Senator's daughter, a governor's son, a state attorney general's wife are "killed or seriously injured by an overweight RV driver" things aren't likely to change...

Just like the dealership wants the profit from selling every RV they can get off the lot (regardless of tow vehicle), every state wants the revenue from sales tax on any vehicle and every trailer, tax on gas and diesel, tax on campground fees (tourism taxes in most places) and the increased sales tax at stores and recreational businesses from people who tow trailers into their state from distant homes.....

There's an incentive to support and grow the RV industry, and right now, those who are growing it don't care as long as it grows....

They, along with the new owners/buyers are the ones "looking down the muzzle with their finger on the trigger".....

It goes far beyond the "buyer", all the players have a hand in the growing problem..... How to fix it ??? Stop the greed and, from the top down, "just say no"... I don't see that happening any time soon.....

[Laredo Tugger]

Originally Posted by sourdough

Russ the point of the post was not how easy it is to tow a 5th wheel overweight or all the weights you ran when you were overweight - you've said that many times. The point is how easy it is for folks, totally ignorant, to walk into what I consider a dangerous situation. You chose to do that, these folks have no idea. They were not told, as they should have been, that there was a red flag with that combo. And, as new buyers they should have had the right to assume that the seller of the RV would guide them....that didn't, and doesn't, happen. Bad deal IMO. I was suggesting that those experienced in towing and weights maybe take that step to discuss those things if they know anyone contemplating an RV purchase...nothing more.

Exactly why there needs to be a certified sticker on the RV stating:
"The minimum required payload of tow vehicle must be XXXX lbs."
We have stickers for everything else, why not this?
I know there are a lot of factors involved that move the needle back and forth, CCC, tire ratings and hitch weights to name a few, but there has to be some standard on the part of manufactures and dealers to comply to. I know the realities of bureaucracy will make sure such a "sticker" never gets peeled and adhered even one time. That is a bunch of crap if you ask me.
I guess under this premise it would be OK for me to sell handguns across the street from a high school in south Chicago? No warnings for misuse, customer understands only what they want to do with the product but not how dangerous it is to own, no liability to the seller. Yes, there are many similarities here. Only difference is penalty to the seller if caught, something the RV industry does not have. Hmmm......
And I understand your intent to educate prospective new buyers, but honestly I do not see or encounter these folks on a regular bases. The best target for such information is, sadly the RV sales office and we all know where it goes from there.
RMc
On edit and after reading the above post all I have to say is "Give that man a hrumph !!!" I totaly agree.

[bsmith0404]

Originally Posted by Laredo Tugger

Exactly why there needs to be a certified sticker on the RV stating:
"The minimum required payload of tow vehicle must be XXXX lbs."
We have stickers for everything else, why not this?

That would be fine if payload stickers on a door were actually based on the trucks capability instead of an artificial number created to keep the truck within a certain class. I know manufacturers are going away from the Class II, 10,000 GVWR limitation with some of the current trucks, but you can still buy a 2500 and even a 3500 with the 10,000 limitation for insurance/licensing purposes. The equipment doesn’t change, just the sticker. It’s mainly for commercial companies, but affects everyone. For example, I’ll speak GM because that’s what I know, the 2500 Duramax is exactly the same truck as the 3500 with the exception of the rear springs, but even the rear springs are rated above the weight limitation that is placed on the truck under the class II rating. So what makes a 2500 that is slightly over payload unsafe?

[travelin texans]

Originally Posted by bsmith0404

. So what makes a 2500 that is slightly over payload unsafe?

The other guys lawyer if in an accident!