Used as designed it's overweight

[depush]

How are others dealing with this? Or not, as the case may be ...

We bought a Raptor 3712TS toy hauler last year. Took it out a coupla times, checked it out. Nothing serious, we thought. Now for the real deal. I've been getting it ready for an upcoming 5k mile trip out west. You know, do some riding, some kayaking, take our time and not over-plan anything. Livin' our best life. All that.

I'm finding out that if I use my trailer as designed it's overweight. (!?) Is this common?

After a couple of weeks of work doing various stuffs –6 new tires, install inverter/new batt system, roof maintenance, etc, etc, etc– I did a round of weighing at the Cat scales.

TV, 3500HD DRW, comes in at 8260 full of fuel, nothing else. Just the truck. ok fine.

I go back home, load the garage with two MC's (<1000lbs), kayaks and tools. 20 gal of gas in the aux tank (~120lbs). All basic stuff I know we'll carry but def under the 2000 lb garage weight limit. We have some other things in the trailer but it's not loaded to go. Most importantly, there's _no_ water in it. All tanks are empty.

I go back to the scales and weigh the whole rig. Gross combined weight is 23780 lbs. Minus the TV leaves 15,520lbs. The GVWR for the trailer is 15.5k.

I'm at my GVWR limit _without any water_ onboard.

On one hand, I'm astonished a builder could be so irresponsible. On the other, I'm feeling naive and a bit suckered.

We plan on _not_ planning much and boondocking quite a bit. Can't do that very well without water. I watched Flight of the Phoenix as a kid. I know water is important. I don't like the idea of bombing down the road with +900 lbs of water, either, though. Planned on filling up much nearer our first destination. Still ...

I'm kicking myself because, although we were total noobs to RV 5th wheels, we discussed, thought about, and looked at a lot of RV's. We took a long time to decide and find just what we thought we would need and like for what we wanted to do. A toy hauler seemed to fit the bill. Now it looks like I'm forced to make a choice between toys or water.

/rant

[hankpage]

Your TV no longer weighs 8260 ... it weighs 8260 + 20 - 25% of the trailer weight. Check the cargo (not garage) capacity of the TH then reweigh the TV and TH separately while connected. I'm not sure but I think this may clear things up. Hope someone with more big trailer knowledge chimes in, Hank

[rjrelander]

Sure the trailer GVWR of 15.5K is correct? Quick search shows dry weight of 12745 and cargo weight of 3755 which is 16.5K.

[depush]

hankpage:

Yes, I did all that. Cat scales have three scales, one for each axle group. That's why I weighed the TV alone first.

Trailer weight is axle weight plus pin, correct? Thats what gross means, I thought. Total weight of the trailer.

My trailer axle weight alone is 12480.

[depush]

Originally Posted by rjrelander

Sure the trailer GVWR of 15.5K is correct? Quick search shows dry weight of 12745 and cargo weight of 3755 which is 16.5K.

Yes. Listed on the placard on the side of the trailer.

[xrated]

As Hank stated, your tow vehicle no longer weighs 8260 when the trailer is attached. The pin weight of the trailer is now on the truck. So your axle weights plus the pin weight of the trailer on the back of the truck is what the trailer actually weighs. You need to look at your scale tickets and see how much the truck front AND rear axle weight is when you have the trailer hooked up to the truck. Then use that number and subtract the truck alone weight and you now know your pin weight.

Not sure what year your trailer is, but here are the numbers for a 2008 3712TS.
Dry weight: 12745
Cargo weight: 3755
That makes the GVWR = 16,500 lbs

[JRTJH]

If what I see on the Keystone website is correct, the last 3712TS trailers were built around 2008. That puts your trailer about 12 years old ?????

Not that trailer age is a factor, but through the years, what has been done to the trailer that wasn't included in the original weight? Things like an extra awning, a front air conditioner, adding a generator, slide covers/awnings, a washer/dryer, etc...

All those things add up over time and they all subtract from the trailer cargo capacity.

I know from my own "much smaller and compact fifth wheel" that what started out as a 7000 pound trailer with a 2900 pound cargo capacity quickly became a 8300 pound trailer before we started putting in clothes and groceries. All those necessary but forgotten items add up quickly. Maybe, over the years, things you added make up the weight you thought you had left... Sort of like the waistline, when it creeps up, you don't notice the bulge until you can't see the numbers on the scale directly in front of your toes......

[Racebug]

Don't know much about your trailer, but I can assume because of the model number it is a tandem axle? Not sure why they make TH in tandem W/O warning people about the limitations. I look at it the same as a SRW 1 ton truck. Really not much more than a harsher riding 3/4 ton truck. I say fill water at the last chance before your destination and roll on!

[xrated]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

If what I see on the Keystone website is correct, the last 3712TS trailers were built around 2008. That puts your trailer about 12 years old ?????

Not that trailer age is a factor, but through the years, what has been done to the trailer that wasn't included in the original weight? Things like an extra awning, a front air conditioner, adding a generator, slide covers/awnings, a washer/dryer, etc...

All those things add up over time and they all subtract from the trailer cargo capacity.

I know from my own "much smaller and compact fifth wheel" that what started out as a 7000 pound trailer with a 2900 pound cargo capacity quickly became a 8300 pound trailer before we started putting in clothes and groceries. All those necessary but forgotten items add up quickly. Maybe, over the years, things you added make up the weight you thought you had left... Sort of like the waistline, when it creeps up, you don't notice the bulge until you can't see the numbers on the scale directly in front of your toes......

Very good point John...who knows what has been added to the trailer in its lifetime....maybe almost nothing....maybe a bunch, with the resulting reduction of the trailer's cargo capacity.

[rjrelander]

Originally Posted by xrated

As Hank stated, your tow vehicle no longer weighs 8260 when the trailer is attached. The pin weight of the trailer is now on the truck. So your axle weights plus the pin weight of the trailer on the back of the truck is what the trailer actually weighs. You need to look at your scale tickets and see how much the truck front AND rear axle weight is when you have the trailer hooked up to the truck. Then use that number and subtract the truck alone weight and you now know your pin weight.

Not sure what year your trailer is, but here are the numbers for a 2008 3712TS.
Dry weight: 12745
Cargo weight: 3755
That makes the GVWR = 16,500 lbs

I don't think he was concerned (yet) about pin weight or payload on the truck, just the partially loaded weight of the trailer versus the GVWR of the trailer. That would be total scale weight of truck and trailer minus scale weight of truck by itself. I got 16,500 GVWR from the same online specs but the placard on the trailer says 15,500 GVWR so not sure what that implies. Maybe part of the six wore off, making the six look like a five?

[EDIT] Fixed some numbers to reflect what I meant.

[rjrelander]

Originally Posted by xrated

Not sure what year your trailer is, but here are the numbers for a 2008 3712TS.
Dry weight: 12745
Cargo weight: 3755
That makes the GVWR = 16,500 lbs

Aha. Here are the numbers from the 2007 3712TS.

Dry weight: 12130
Cargo weight: 3370
That makes the GVWR = 15,500 lbs

So yeah, I would agree with the others. It's likely aftermarket additions (or factory options) that are cutting into the carrying capacity. Maybe unload everything from the trailer, head back to the scales, and compare the current dry weight versus the original (not necessarily as-delivered) dry weight of 12,130 from the 2007 brochure?

[EDIT] Either that or somebody hid gold bars in the undercarriage.

[depush]

I appreciate the comments. I think it shows the confusion regarding weight claims and limits in the industry.

I was initially taken by the website math when we were looking for a trailer. I too did the math, figured the use and thought all was more or less good.

My understanding is that by law the GVWR, along with other manufacturer info, has to be displayed on the vehicle, usually found on the front drivers side quadrant, and is the final word regarding legal safe limits:



I have all of the relevant ratings (GVWR-GCWR-RGAWR-loaded trailer weight rating-king pin weight rating for TV) from both the TV and trailer (GVWR-GAWR) manufacturers and know the weight of all axles hitched and not.

TV alone, 84 gal diesel:
•Steer axle - 4420
•Drive axle - 3840
*Gross - 8260

Reweigh with trailer, 72 gal diesel (approx 102 lbs dif):
•Steer axle - 4380
•Drive axle - 6920
•Trailer axle (all 3) - 12480
*Gross (both TV and trailer) - 23780

It's also my understanding that towing over the GVWR is illegal. I'm not above some risk taking, when its just me. If I'm 6% overweight by adding water is it a big deal? 10%? Some will say to have 15-20% _under_ for safety margins.

The only thing I'm really going on about, though, is the GVWR of the trailer. The TV doesn't enter into it. Not exactly.

Yes, if my axle weights and pin weight all fall within their rating I guess I could consider myself good to go.

My pin weight, with fuel dif figured in, is 3124. 901 below my TV capacity of 4025, so good there. My GRAWR is 8200, good there too. But I'm 280 over my GCWR already without 900 lbs of water, and food and clothes (could trade diesel for water, hardly ideal tho), and my trailer looks to be maxed out as well.

It leaves me to wonder about safety margins and about legality. And it's the manufacturer leaving me to wonder. Am I to think all those triple axle 15.5k raptors out there should rightly be pulled by a 450/4500 when loaded up?

Isn't it odd that Keystone, or anyone, would make a trailer to haul a ton of toys, have large water capacities, and then put it all on a chassis design that is overloaded when you do?

[depush]

Originally Posted by xrated

Very good point John...who knows what has been added to the trailer in its lifetime....maybe almost nothing....maybe a bunch, with the resulting reduction of the trailer's cargo capacity.

Nothing, really. It all looks standard. One AC unit, typical furniture, etc. The only thing that matters is the GVWR anyway. In this context.

[rjrelander]

Something still doesn't make sense. According to the 2007 catalog specs (taken with a grain of salt), you should have 3370 pounds of cargo capacity in the trailer. If you loaded about 2000 pounds of stuff, where did the other 1370 pounds come from? Either 1) the dry weight is actually about 13,500 (versus published 12,130) for some reason, 2) it's actually loaded with about 3400 pounds of stuff, or 3) something in between.

[EDIT] Despite being a huge PITA, you might still want to unload and re-scale to get the dry trailer weight to figure out how much cargo capacity you really have in the trailer.

[EDIT][EDIT] That should also give you the true weight of what you loaded.

[roadglide]

The last trip I weighed going to Quartzsite Az. My trailer axles weighed 12300 lbs with 2 7000 lb axles and 14 g sallean tires my combined weight 24000 lbs .I'm thinking if your tires and axles are not over weight you should be ok .

[depush]

Originally Posted by rjrelander

Something still doesn't make sense. According to the 2007 catalog specs (taken with a grain of salt), you should have 3370 pounds of cargo capacity in the trailer. If you loaded about 2000 pounds of stuff, where did the other 1370 pounds come from? Either 1) the dry weight is actually about 13,500 (versus published 12,130) for some reason, 2) it's actually loaded with about 3400 pounds of stuff, or 3) something in between.

[EDIT] Despite being a huge PITA, you might still want to unload and re-scale to get a dry trailer weight to figure out how much cargo capacity you really have in the trailer.

[EDIT][EDIT] That should also give you the true weight of what you loaded.

I don't need to know the weight of everything I put in it, exactly. If I'm over I'd want to know the weights of what I'm taking back out though. In the end, I only need to know I'm within limits. As I mentioned, (as roadglide did) if all my axle weights are good I'm probably ok, even if not entirely legal.

But we all hear lotsa talk about safety, having enuf TV, and overloading. And here we have manufacturer(s) actually contributing to non-compliance and even posting marketing numbers that others find easily even though using them gives the wrong result regarding safety.

[depush]

... well, thanks for indulging my little rant. I guess I'm still not through the initial 'omg doesn't anyone supervise these people' stage of learning about the RV industry and how trailers are actually built.

I guess it's more concerning because we're considering full-timing it eventually. Maybe

[rjrelander]

Originally Posted by depush

But we all hear lotsa talk about safety, having enuf TV, and overloading. And here we have manufacturer(s) actually contributing to non-compliance and even posting marketing numbers that others find easily even though using them gives the wrong result regarding safety.

Yeah. Just got me really curious what your actual dry weight is versus the 12,130 pound dry weight published in the 2007 Keystone catalog. If it is actually closer to 13,500 pound dry weight (which is what it would be if you are maxxed out on GVWR with about 2000 pounds of cargo), I can't imagine how it could have left the factory. That additional 1370 pounds of dry weight is over 10% above published specs which seems like a huge amount. It also seems weird that the 2008 was suddenly listed at 16,500 GVWR.

[depush]

Originally Posted by rjrelander

Yeah. Just got me really curious what your actual dry weight is versus the 12,130 pound dry weight published in the 2007 Keystone catalog. If it is actually closer to 13,500 pound dry weight (which is what it would be if you are maxxed out on GVWR with about 2000 pounds of cargo), I can't imagine how it could have left the factory. That additional 1370 pounds of dry weight is over 10% above published specs which seems like a huge amount. It also seems weird that the 2008 was suddenly listed at 16,500 GVWR.

One thought, I do have a 5.5 Onan up front. Don't know if that's included or not.

[xrated]

depush.....OK, now were talking....you posted up the previous weight of the truck with no trailer and it was 8260. Then you posted up the weight of the truck with the trailer attached....and between the steer and drive axles, you show a total of 11,300 lbs. That number, minus the unladened truck weight comes out to 3040 lbs....which is your pin weight. Now that you know the pin weight, AND you have the weight of the trailer axles as it was scaled (12,480) adding those two numbers together gives you 15,520 for the trailer weight. Adding back in the original weight of the truck unhitched from the trailer 8260 puts you right at the GCVW weight that you show on the scale ticket.

I have no answer for the "extra" weight that you have that is over the published empty weight of the trailer....other than at sometime between the date of manufacture and the day you bought it, there was stuff added to the trailer that accounts for that weight.....or their estimated empty weight that was published was way off. Many times the published empty weight is not accurate, and most of the time that weight doesn't include full propane tanks and a battery, but there is quite alot more than those two things that just doesn't add up for 1000+ lbs of weight.