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Old 06-16-2013, 02:48 PM   #1
HammerToe
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2008 Cougar 291RLS - 3 Water tanks or 4?

I'm just curious about something:

I own a 2008 Cougar 5th Model 291RLS.

In the 'water department', the Specifications for this model are:

Number Of Fresh Water Holding Tanks 1
Total Fresh Water Tank Capacity (gal/l) 60 / 227.1
Number Of Gray Water Holding Tanks 1
Total Gray Water Tank Capacity (gal/l) 76 / 287.7
Number Of Black Water Holding Tanks 1
Total Black Water Tank Capacity (gal/l) 38 / 143.8

I.e. - THREE (3) Water Tanks.

ALSO - on the left hand side of the trailer, there are THREE (3) DUMP Valves, one each for Grey, Black and Fresh (water) respectively, CONSISTENT WITH THREE (3) Water Tanks.

HOWEVER:

The Tank Monitor Panel inside the trailer (a KIB Enterprises Model M25VWL, as far as I have been able to deduce) displays WATER LEVEL INDICATORS for FOUR (4) 'TANKS???'.

From top to bottom, they are: 'Galley', 'Grey', 'Black' and 'Fresh' (water) respectively.

*ALSO*: if (as part of filling/flushing/sterilizing operations, for example) one fills/adds water:

(a) through the kitchen sink,
(b) through the shower and (finally),
(a) through the toilet,

EACH of these 'gauges' 'RESPONDS' INDEPENDENTLY as though water is being added TO 'FOUR TANKS'.

'SEE?' the (apparent) 'INCONSISTENCY'?

'According to the Gauges', it 'looks like' there are FOUR ('logical') tanks (one each for black (toilet), grey (shower and bedroom sink), galley ('kitchen' sink) and fresh water.

YET, there are only THREE (3) DUMP VALVES and opening the Grey Valve 'dumps' water from BOTH the Grey and Galley ('Logical') tank(s), according to the monitoring panel indicators.

If there ARE only 3 tanks, why do the Grey and Galley tank level indicators 'react' independently? Why don't they show the SAME water level?

If there IS only a single (combined) 'physical' grey and galley tank, how would that be 'plumbed' so that the water levels don't equalize prior to being dumped (as they seem to shared a common dump valve (or at least HANDLE)), or does the 'handle' 'CONTROL' TWO 'valves', one for each grey/galley tank?

Anyone got an explanation for THIS? 'Plumbing Diagram(s)?
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Old 06-16-2013, 03:21 PM   #2
Festus2
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When the tank monitors are installed, they usually put in a single monitor which will cover a variety of tank configurations. It is a money saving thing so the manufacturer doesn't have to buy several different types of monitors depending upon the number of tanks. A one size fits all situation.

It sounds like you have just 3 tanks - 1 black, 1 gray, and 1 galley/gray plus your FW tank. You have 3 dump valves - one for the toilet, one for the shower and bathroom sink and another for the kitchen.

You may have already discovered on your own or read about the monitor tank readings. They can be and usually are inaccurate - especially the black and gray tank monitors. There are volumes written about this topic and what people do to keep their tanks clean and sensors working properly.

Don't ask for a plumbing diagram or any other schematic from Keystone --- you won't get one. No one knows why so just accept this as "normal". It must be a closely guarded Keystone secret or they don't know how their units are plumbed or wired.
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Old 06-16-2013, 03:39 PM   #3
f6bits
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I think that initial printed spec of only 1 Grey tank is wrong.

Festus' comment on the number of tanks should read *4* Tanks. He lists of the three sewer tanks, plus the fresh water tank.

A Fresh Water tank is for you to fill up if you're going to a campsite without a water supply. You'll have 60 gallons to use for drinking, washing, bathing, and flushing. Those 60 gallons will ultimately end up in your Grey, Galley, and Black tanks to be dumped out at some point.

Fresh water doesn't have a Dump Valve like the grey/galley/black tanks. It has a hose that hangs below the trailer to drain that tank's clean (fresh) water to the ground. Whatever voodoo that grey dump valve is doing in respects to the panel readout should be attributed to grey (not black) magic. If you really want to see what's going on, remove the bottom covering of your trailer and explore the plumbing on your own. I've done it and it's quite enlightening.
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Old 06-16-2013, 03:45 PM   #4
Festus2
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Scott -
In the metric system which we use here in Canada, 3 plus 1 still equals 3. But just in case you don't believe that, you should know that I failed Math in High School. You are right, the numbers in my post don't add up and; like my Math teacher, you caught my mistake. Oh well, I got an A in Phys Ed.
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Old 06-17-2013, 05:16 AM   #5
HammerToe
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Ah, 'of course': 'Collectively', you've answered my question(s)/'straightened things out for me'.

It does now seem that I must indeed have FOUR TANKS and that the specs are wrong:

1. a black water tank,
2. a grey water tank (my guess - for bedroom sink and shower).
3. a galley tank ('kitchen' sink), and finally
4. a fresh water tank.

That would explain (a) the 4 'gauges' on the monitor panel, (b) the (only) 3 dump valves because (c) (of course, I 'KNEW THIS' but it never occurred to me in this context - Duh!) the fresh water tank does not have/need/use a 'dump valve'.

This now leads me to another set of questions: I wonder the heck the CAPACITY of each of these (non-fresh water) tanks is???

The FRESH WATER tank DOES indeed appear to be 60 US gallons.

I 'know this' because the last time I filled it up with 'city water', I decided to 'test it': I read my house's water meter in the basement at the start of the operation and at the end, and I was able to ADD 227 liters to a completely drained tank without overfilling. (I did this by going down into the basement and using the household 'master' shut off valve to control the start and stop of the filling operation and just kept adding water ('fingers crossed') until 227 liters were added, shut off the water and read the 5th's gauges)

The next time I fill my fresh water tank, I'm going to install and USE a shut-off valve on the water hose at the end where it 'goes into' the trailer, read the (house) water meter at the start, slowly add water to the fresh water tank, go inside the trailer and WATCH the fresh water tank 'gauge' as it fills.

As soon as EACH LED, progressively, 'lights up' 'SOLID', I will go outside, shut the water off at the trailer, go downstairs in the house, read the water meter and see how many liters/gallons I was able to add TO THAT POINT.

I will repeat this until the 'tank is full' (the 'full' LED lights up).

This process should allow me to (in a 'rough way', admittedly) 'calibrate' the internal fresh water tank monitor 'gauge' so that I will be able to know (and document) how much (in this case) fresh water is in the tank at each 'LED indicated' level.

I will then, again using a fresh water hose, REPEAT this process for the Black, Grey and Galley 'tanks' to see BOTH what their max capacities are AND how much water is in them as each LED progressively lights up AND this process will enable me to confirm (though I'm pretty sure) that the bedroom sink and shower 'share' one tank -the grey water tank.

I'll post the results.

This information should be useful, IMO, in that I like to Dry Camp and knowing how FAST the tanks are filling up (or emptying, in the case of fresh water) AND by being able to calculate how much capacity I am 'using up' on a daily basis, how 'urgent' the need to dump (or refill) these tanks might be. (I.e. - do I think I will have enough capacity to last until I plan to pack up and leave OR 'might as well do it sooner when it's convenient' as 'you're going to have to ANYWAY...

BTW, to the replay that suggested that I would probably find it interesting to drop the 'belly cover' and see what's underneath:

I intend to do that, in fact.

I'm currently in the process of trying The GEO Method (and may try some others) to see if I can get my Black Water gauge) to read correctly (shows 1/3 full when S/B empty) BUT I'm strongly leaning towards giving those 'Horst Miracle Probes' a try and THAT fact motivated me (in part) to post my questions as I could not figure out ('for sure') how many 'grey water' probe sets I might need, based on the SPECS which listed (effectively) only ONE grey tank but the level monitor showed TWO - grey and galley.

Anyone ever tried/used/installed these probes? Installation difficulty? Probe success?

PS: one final thing/another reason I think the fresh water tank 'cailbration exercise' will be useful.

When I first got my 5th and undertook to fill the fresh water tank, I did it by 'simply' inserting a water hose and ADDING WATER until in 'came out of' the 5ths filler tube around the hose (there was/typically IS some (air) space to allow the overflow to escape.

HOWEVER, I started to notice that, after pulling the trailer out of my yard, down the driveway, into the street, and parking it for a few moments while I went back to and close a BIG GATE to my back yard where I normally keep it, I discovered a trail of water down my driveway and into the street, culminating with the discovery of water dripping from under the underbelly cover near the right front landing jack leg.

I wondered "where the heck" is THAT 'coming from'?

Finally, one day, after filling the fresh water tank completely IN THIS MANNER (until water came out of filler opening), I happened to look under the trailer and noticed the BELLY COVER seemed to be SAGGING DOWN in the center-middle several (say, 3-4 INCHES).

Oh-oh, I thought.

Got a socket wrench, removed 3 hex screws that held the front lip of the cover against the trailer, and then started to (ultimately 'COMPLETELY') 'kneel' the front of the 5th down and... Geez... a torrent of water flowed out from under belly cover.

LESSON LEARNED: you should not assume that one can properly fill the ('a) fresh water tank in the manner that I was doing it - by waiting until it 'backflows' out the filler.

Now 'clearly' (and I HAD thought of this), all these tanks have to be 'vented' in order to allow air in and out as they fill up or are empties (less they collapse or explode) BUT!!! I had falsely assumed, apparently, that the fresh water tank 'vent' would 'drain' to the ground - i.e. vent would have to start at the top of the tank but would 'loop back down' so that if too full, the overflow would go STRAIGHT down to the street... Not true, it seems... (At least in some cases...).

Thus, I'm curious enough that I'm going to get under that underbelly cover and have a look (to install the Horst probes, if for no other reason) and, if possible, I might see if I add a tube to drain any fresh water overflow down to the street 'thru' the belly pan...

Thoughts?

Oh, and (thoughts on) those Horst probes (again)?

Anyway: THANKS for helping me get this 'straight in my head'.

Much appreciated!
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Old 07-14-2013, 07:32 PM   #6
Pmedic4
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Capacity of all Water Tanks

I'm surprised by your tank capacity.
I have the 2012, and it seems to be fairly consistent for the Cougar HC 291 ( and almost Cougar HC models) since 2010 - but I could believe 2008 could be different?

The tank capacities I've seen are:
Fresh Water 47 gallons (however believing that is 41 in the tank, and 6 in the HW heater)
Shower/lavatory Sink Gray Water 28 gallons
Galley (kitchen) Gray Water 28 gallons
Toilet Black Water Tank 28 gallons

This seems to show a consistent 28 gallon tank for waste water.
Now, I do have to admit by the way, the valve for the Galley water tank is difficult to see! I knew it was there, but without the darn label, I wouldn't have found that little black knob, right there next to the frame on the slideout.
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Old 07-14-2013, 08:00 PM   #7
hankaye
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HammerToe, Howdy;

The answer is in your first post ...
"Number Of Fresh Water Holding Tanks 1
Total Fresh Water Tank Capacity (gal/l) 60 / 227.1
Number Of Gray Water Holding Tanks 1
Total Gray Water Tank Capacity (gal/l) 76 / 287.7

Number Of Black Water Holding Tanks 1
Total Black Water Tank Capacity (gal/l) 38 / 143.8"

You were counting only 1 gray tank at that time. Divide that
tank by the number of tanks you now realize you have and
you've your answer ... and Robert would be your Father's brother...

hankaye
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