add a leaf for truck

[RoadToad]

Here's a copy/paste from the relevant Google search.
"...How big of a trailer can a F250 pull?
In fact, when properly equipped, the Super Duty® can handle conventional trailers up to 19,000 pounds, 5th-wheel trailers up to 26,500 pounds and gooseneck trailers up to 31,200 pounds. Decades of RV and towing experience in every configuration..."

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by RoadToad

Actually I have the Specs and the scale tickets.
I'll dig them out, if I can remember where I filed them.
I belive the GVW is 9700 and Combined is 18,500.
Scaled all axles, no problem there.
Thank you for your concern.

If you've scaled, know your truck specs and are within them then all the "unknowns", the dark guessing areas disappear. For me it's just a matter of an owner being aware if they're not. Lots of folks aren't, would like to and be safe but just don't know. I'm glad you have those numbers and know what they mean. Happy camping.

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by RoadToad

Here's a copy/paste from the relevant Google search.
"...How big of a trailer can a F250 pull?
In fact, when properly equipped, the Super Duty® can handle conventional trailers up to 19,000 pounds, 5th-wheel trailers up to 26,500 pounds and gooseneck trailers up to 31,200 pounds. Decades of RV and towing experience in every configuration..."

The search terms you used are "pull" not carry. Payload was the discussion as "towing capacity" sales literature/advertising has little relevance to hualing a camper. In your quote from your search the operative sentence there is "when properly equipped", which is not defined. You are convinced that you have all the pertinent numbers which you partially shared in your previous post.

Good luck to you and safe travels.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by RoadToad

Here's a copy/paste from the relevant Google search.
"...How big of a trailer can a F250 pull?
In fact, when properly equipped, the Super Duty® can handle conventional trailers up to 19,000 pounds, 5th-wheel trailers up to 26,500 pounds and gooseneck trailers up to 31,200 pounds. Decades of RV and towing experience in every configuration..."

Remember that none of those numbers address the more critical number....what the truck can carry, which isn't in any of those numbers and where your model of truck (and yours specifically) can come in short. The numbers you listed are "sales" numbers intended to generate sales, not keep you safe or legal and are for all intents and purposes meaningless in the towing world. Those are BEST case scenarios with a truck no one has ever owned.

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by RoadToad

Not overloaded at all.
Look at equipment in signature.
Big truck, little camper.
I am from the Space Industry.
I believe in backup systems.
Had both handy.
Used them.
Why would you chose to presume overload?
__________________
2010 Cooper Canyon 252FWRLS
2000 F250 SC 7.3 Turbo Diesel
2003 Roadtrek 190

Well a 2000 F250 diesel, with likely have at most a 2,000# payload. Likely at most a 9,200# GVWR. your 5er only has a GVWR of 10,120# GVWR and a dry pin of 1,320#.

[hankaye]

dansc, Howdy;

Originally Posted by dansc

had anyone done an add a leaf to their truck to decrease sag? any thoughts on how it worked for you and ride quality?

Yup, only it was a replace a leaf. Back 10 years ago I had the job done.
Yes, the ride is a tad stiffer, I don't mind. The leaf that replaced the orig.
is about 0.002" thicker and boosted the weight carrying cap. by ~ 1,000#
according to the folks at the Spring shop. Visually, my F-250 now sits level
instead of the rear sitting about ~1" lower then the front. At the time I had
a TT and it helped a bunch (my opinion).

Hope that helps.

hank

[JRTJH]

Having owned a 1999 SuperDuty SuperCab Short bed 4x4 (and knowing that the towing specs/payload specs didn't change from 99 to 2000) I can state that the GVWR of the 2000 F250 is 8800 pounds in both the 4x2 and 4x4 configuration. The payload for the 4x2 diesel SB with camper package was 2183 and the 4x4 payload (diesel SB) was 1963. The long bed configuration was about 300 pounds less if both the SB and LB trucks....

I would urge against doing a "Google search" for "best BS in category" type specifications. They almost always tend to lead someone "down the BS pathway" right to the "highest rated advertisement obtained specs" and unfortunately, not to "common reality as we know it to exist"....

It's best, IMHO, to revert to the manufacturer's specifications. In this case, it's the 2000 Ford Towing Guide. Pages 8 and 16 will confirm the data in paragraph 1. The Ford Towing Guide is available here: https://blueovaltrucks.com/tech/pdf_...wing_guide.pdf

Keep in mind, we're discussing a 21 year old truck, not a "newly manufactured vehicle (as rated in the Towing Guide). While some may "wishfully consider" their 21 year old truck to be "good as new" the facts are that metal fatigue, wear and tear and truck age do play a substantial role in whether any mechanical equipment is "as good as new" after 21 years of use. I've not yet seen any vehicle that's in "normal use" that does not "show it's age" both in capability and appearance..... YMMV

[RoadToad]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Having owned a 1999 SuperDuty SuperCab Short bed 4x4 (and knowing that the towing specs/payload specs didn't change from 99 to 2000) I can state that the GVWR of the 2000 F250 is 8800 pounds in both the 4x2 and 4x4 configuration. The payload for the 4x2 diesel SB with camper package was 2183 and the 4x4 payload (diesel SB) was 1963. The long bed configuration was about 300 pounds less if both the SB and LB trucks....

I would urge against doing a "Google search" for "best BS in category" type specifications. They almost always tend to lead someone "down the BS pathway" right to the "highest rated advertisement obtained specs" and unfortunately, not to "common reality as we know it to exist"....

It's best, IMHO, to revert to the manufacturer's specifications. In this case, it's the 2000 Ford Towing Guide. Pages 8 and 16 will confirm the data in paragraph 1. The Ford Towing Guide is available here: https://blueovaltrucks.com/tech/pdf_...wing_guide.pdf

Keep in mind, we're discussing a 21 year old truck, not a "newly manufactured vehicle (as rated in the Towing Guide). While some may "wishfully consider" their 21 year old truck to be "good as new" the facts are that metal fatigue, wear and tear and truck age do play a substantial role in whether any mechanical equipment is "as good as new" after 21 years of use. I've not yet seen any vehicle that's in "normal use" that does not "show it's age" both in capability and appearance..... YMMV

I see the GCWR, page 16 0f the linked document, is actually greater than I originally posted. As are the other parameters.
Good to know.

This truck is one owner, pristine, garaged, 87000 mi, used exclusively to tow 5th wheel.
Definitely not normal use.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by RoadToad

I see the GCWR, page 16 0f the linked document, is actually greater than I originally posted. As are the other parameters.
Good to know.

GCWR is a two edged sword... Do the "simple math" before you take a chance on "hiding behind that data"... On Page 16, the "maximum trailer rating" for the SC SB diesel automatic is 13700 (4x2) and 13200 (4x4). The GCWR is 20,000 pounds. The truck, at GVWR of 8800 pounds can only tow a trailer weighing the maximum of 20,000 - 8,800 = 11,200, not the "advertised 13,200+.....

Also keep in mind that this "data" on maximum towing are calculated using the "base model, properly equipped truck". An XLT, Lariat, King Ranch option package will further reduce the payload, the maximum trailer weight (by the amount of weight those options add to the truck curb weight)....

Also, remember that ALL (not cherrypicked exclusions) maximum ratings must be adhered to. You can't "choose to use rear axle capacity" and work to be under that rating while "being over on payload and/or max trailer weight/GCWR"... You have to be under all ratings....

Your truck's payload "maximum 4x2 base model" is no greater than 2371 and likely significantly less than that. Given the "empty pin weight of your fifth wheel of 1320, then add 60 pounds for propane and 40 pounds for a single battery and 150 for a hitch, and your minimum pin weight for the EMPTY trailer will be in the 1570 range. So, the "lowest hoped for remaining payload is in the 800 pound area. That's calculating for a 150 pound driver and no other passengers, no other cargo, nothing in the trailer and nothing in the "truck with no options"... The 4x4 base model truck payload is about 300 pounds less than this.

Like others, I'd like to see those "real world CAT scale weights" to see how you figured that your rig is not overweight... Maybe it is, but I'd suspect, that "IF" it is underweight, it's not by much more than a "gnat's weight".

At any rate, adding extra overload springs and overload shocks only serve to decrease your available payload by the amount of weight they add to your curb weight, they do nothing to improve payload or towing capacity.

[RoadToad]

The air lifts were strictly to level the truck for night lighting concerns.

[Mikelff]

Originally Posted by jasin1

If your truck is overloaded and not within safety limits I would upgrade the truck if possible.

If your within all of your weight specs and still have a little sag then I would get airbags to level the rig...it won’t increase your payload capacity at all.
The airbags will give a better unloaded comfort level.
Add a springs also will not give you legal upgraded payload capacity and will give you a uncomfortable unloaded driving experience.

And yes I’m sure someone is going to chime in about how they made their truck a legal 1 ton with adding springs and that I’m wrong but unless the person who installed them is willing to go to court with you and take responsibility of any bad outcome then I would avoid that route personally

If you have a spring installed by a DOT certified modifier, and they certify their modification, you will be legal in all 50 states as long as you do not exceed the new certified weight ratings. It is typically not a single spring. They rebuild your spring pack and is usually two or three leaf springs. The DOT has been integrated into the NTSB and they are the governing authority for vehicle modifications and certifications, new and used vehicles . The shop that makes the modifications and certify them, also add a new yellow sticker to your door jam that certifies the modifications they perform are to the DOT standards. They do not change the factory certification, they certify the new modified vehicle and new weight ratings. THE MODIFIER ASSUMES THE LEGAL LIABILITY for the modifications, not the vehicle owner. So yes, you are wrong in that respect. I have all the regulations off the DOT/NTSB web site. I have had my truck modified and certified with new increased weight ratings. My truck has beed inspected by the Texas State police weights division and by Texas DOT. NO issues, and I’m legal in all states, as long as I do not exceed my new certified weight ratings. Having the modifications performed by a certified modifier makes it all SAFE and legal. So, for those that cannot find a new truck, or can’t afford a new truck, certified modifications is the next best option. There are limits as to how much additional weight support can be added with certified modifications. My 2017, 2500 Silverado with new spring pack and weight ratings and suspension are now EXACTLY the same as a 2017 3500 SRW. That being said, anyone that is interested in possibly having certified modifications (added springs) to safely and legally carry more weight can PM me and I can go into more detail and send you a copy of the regulations.

[jasin1]

Originally Posted by Mikelff

If you have a spring installed by a DOT certified modifier, and they certify their modification, you will be legal in all 50 states as long as you do not exceed the new certified weight ratings. It is typically not a single spring. They rebuild your spring pack and is usually two or three leaf springs. The DOT has been integrated into the NTSB and they are the governing authority for vehicle modifications and certifications, new and used vehicles . The shop that makes the modifications and certify them, also add a new yellow sticker to your door jam that certifies the modifications they perform are to the DOT standards. They do not change the factory certification, they certify the new modified vehicle and new weight ratings. THE MODIFIER ASSUMES THE LEGAL LIABILITY for the modifications, not the vehicle owner. So yes, you are wrong in that respect. I have all the regulations off the DOT/NTSB web site. I have had my truck modified and certified with new increased weight ratings. My truck has beed inspected by the Texas State police weights division and by Texas DOT. NO issues, and I’m legal in all states, as long as I do not exceed my new certified weight ratings. Having the modifications performed by a certified modifier makes it all SAFE and legal. So, for those that cannot find a new truck, or can’t afford a new truck, certified modifications is the next best option. There are limits as to how much additional weight support can be added with certified modifications. My 2017, 2500 Silverado with new spring pack and weight ratings and suspension are now EXACTLY the same as a 2017 3500 SRW. That being said, anyone that is interested in possibly having certified modifications (added springs) to safely and legally carry more weight can PM me and I can go into more detail and send you a copy of the regulations.

Lol I knew someone would eventually come out of the woodwork ...I have a vision of you reciting that speach to whoever you sell your truck to one day..I guarantee it does absolutely nothing to Kelly blue book..as long as YOUR happy that’s all that matters..I’m glad your so enthusiastic and passionate about it but I assure you your truck will always say 2500 on the title and it may have the payload capacity but is not in fact a 1 ton truck. If a person wants to take that route then they do so knowing they are creating a one off modified vehicle. And I would be surprised if the spring shop returned your calls if you said you were in a accident and needed them to appear in court unless you had a subpoena...

[Mikelff]

Originally Posted by jasin1

Lol I knew someone would eventually come out of the woodwork ...I have a vision of you reciting that speach to whoever you sell your truck to one day..I guarantee it does absolutely nothing to Kelly blue book..as long as YOUR happy that’s all that matters..I’m glad your so enthusiastic and passionate about it but I assure you your truck will always say 2500 on the title and it may have the payload capacity but is not in fact a 1 ton truck. If a person wants to take that route then they do so knowing they are creating a one off modified vehicle. And I would be surprised if the spring shop returned your calls if you said you were in a accident and needed them to appear in court unless you had a subpoena...

My goal was to have a vehicle that could safely and legally carry my 5er. The weight carrying capacity is what it’s all about, not weather its a 2500 or 3500. Who cares! Lol. Not concerned at all if it says 2500 or 3500. It can always be returned to stock with minimal expense, less than $1000. The spring shop name and address is certified on the new yellow sticker and not an issue going to court if that were ever to happen, as they would never have to show up in court. Don’t plan on selling anytime soon. It is truly not as big a deal as you make it out to be. Its always fun debunking the weight police

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by Mikelff

My goal was to have a vehicle that could safely and legally carry my 5er. The weight carrying capacity is what it’s all about, not weather its a 2500 or 3500. Who cares! Lol. Not concerned at all if it says 2500 or 3500. It can always be returned to stock with minimal expense, less than $1000. The spring shop name and address is certified on the new yellow sticker and not an issue going to court if that were ever to happen, as they would never have to show up in court. Don’t plan on selling anytime soon. It is truly not as big a deal as you make it out to be. Its always fun debunking the weight police

You're not "debunking" the weight police. You show the limits some will go trying to skirt normal procedures and processes for whatever reason. Springs alone do not make a 2500 a 3500 and I'm not here to debate that. You chose to make a one off truck accepting some tradeoffs when you did. 99% of folks don't want to, and won't, do that. They actually want to get the size truck they need. So, no debunking there, you're just highlighting an action you took that many would deem questionable.....but it's good in your mind so that's all that counts.

[Javi]

Just so folks know the "YELLOW" sticker isn't the DOT sticker... The larger sticker with the GVWR and both Axle Weight Ratings is the OFFICIAL STICKER and any certified chassis modifier would not be replacing a tire and payload sticker...

I often do metal fab and machine work for a couple of modifiers here in Texas...

The Certification requirements in 49 CFR Part 567 require each manufacturer to affix to the vehicle a label containing, among other things, the vehicle's GVWR. Under Part 567, the only parties that can assign or modify a vehicle's GVWR are the original manufacturer (S567.4(g)(3)), a final stage manufacturer (S567.5(c)(5)), or an alterer (S567.7(b)). Modifications of GVWR by any other parties would have no legal effect under Part 567. Accordingly, a vehicle owner that performs no manufacturing operations on a vehicle cannot modify the GVWR of the vehicle.

[Mikelff]

Originally Posted by Javi

Just so folks know the "YELLOW" sticker isn't the DOT sticker... The larger sticker with the GVWR and both Axle Weight Ratings is the OFFICIAL STICKER and any certified chassis modifier would not be replacing a tire and payload sticker...

I often do metal fab and machine work for a couple of modifiers here in Texas...

The Certification requirements in 49 CFR Part 567 require each manufacturer to affix to the vehicle a label containing, among other things, the vehicle's GVWR. Under Part 567, the only parties that can assign or modify a vehicle's GVWR are the original manufacturer (S567.4(g)(3)), a final stage manufacturer (S567.5(c)(5)), or an alterer (S567.7(b)). Modifications of GVWR by any other parties would have no legal effect under Part 567. Accordingly, a vehicle owner that performs no manufacturing operations on a vehicle cannot modify the GVWR of the vehicle.

Nothing new here, and states the modifier will assign the NEW weight ratings. As the owner of the vehicle I did not modify the GVWR, the modifier did. My tires are in spec and new GVWR and GRAWR were assigned by the modifier. No factory certifications are changed. The new modifications are certified with the new yellow sticker that verify the new ratings. What’s your point? As long as the DOT says I’m safe, legal, and good to go, thats the only opinion I care about, and according to them I’m good to go. I have had several people from this site thank me for saving them thousands of dollars that they could not afford to spend for a new truck. They modified their 3/4 ton trucks using certified modifiers and are now safe and legal. Had one 3500srw modify his and wanted to have it done by a certified modifier. He wanted another 500 pounds. Not sure why, but wanted it done by a certified modifier, so he did.


Nat’l Highway Traffic Safety Admin., DOT

§567.7 Requirements for persons who alter certified vehicles.
(a) With respect to the vehicle alter- ations it performs, an alterer:
(1) Has a duty to determine contin- ued conformity of the altered vehicle with applicable Federal motor vehicle safety, Bumper, and Theft Prevention standards, and
(2) Assumes legal responsibility for all duties and liabilities for certifi- cation under the Vehicle Safety Act. b) The vehicle manufacturer’s cer- tification label and any information la- bels shall remain affixed to the vehicle and the alterer shall affix to the vehi- cle an additional label in the manner and location specified in §567.4, in a manner that does not obscure any pre- viously applied labels, and containing the following information:
(1) The statement: ‘‘This vehicle was altered by (individual or corporate name) in (month and year in which al- terations were completed) and as al- tered it conforms to all applicable Fed- eral Motor Vehicle Safety, Bumper and Theft Prevention Standards affected by the alteration and in effect in (month, year).’’ The second date shall be no ear- lier than the date of manufacture of the certified vehicle (as specified on the certification label), and no later than the date alterations were com- pleted.
(2) If the gross vehicle weight rating or any of the gross axle weight ratings of the vehicle as altered are different from those shown on the original cer- tification label, the modified values shall be provided in the form specified in § 567.4(g)(3) and (4).
(3) If the vehicle as altered has a dif- ferent type classification from that shown on the original certification label, the type as modified shall be pro- vided.

[Javi]

Originally Posted by Mikelff

Nothing new here, and states the modifier will assign the NEW weight ratings. As the owner of the vehicle I did not modify the GVWR, the modifier did. My tires are in spec and new GVWR and GRAWR were assigned by the modifier. No factory certifications are changed. The new modifications are certified with the new yellow sticker that verify the new ratings. What’s your point? As long as the DOT says I’m safe, legal, and good to go, thats the only opinion I care about, and according to them I’m good to go. I have had several people from this site thank me for saving them thousands of dollars that they could not afford to spend for a new truck. They modified their 3/4 ton trucks using certified modifiers and are now safe and legal. Had one 3500srw modify his and wanted to have it done by a certified modifier. He wanted another 500 pounds. Not sure why, but wanted it done by a certified modifier, so he did.


Nat’l Highway Traffic Safety Admin., DOT

§567.7 Requirements for persons who alter certified vehicles.
(a) With respect to the vehicle alter- ations it performs, an alterer:
(1) Has a duty to determine contin- ued conformity of the altered vehicle with applicable Federal motor vehicle safety, Bumper, and Theft Prevention standards, and
(2) Assumes legal responsibility for all duties and liabilities for certifi- cation under the Vehicle Safety Act. b) The vehicle manufacturer’s cer- tification label and any information la- bels shall remain affixed to the vehicle and the alterer shall affix to the vehi- cle an additional label in the manner and location specified in §567.4, in a manner that does not obscure any pre- viously applied labels, and containing the following information:
(1) The statement: ‘‘This vehicle was altered by (individual or corporate name) in (month and year in which al- terations were completed) and as al- tered it conforms to all applicable Fed- eral Motor Vehicle Safety, Bumper and Theft Prevention Standards affected by the alteration and in effect in (month, year).’’ The second date shall be no ear- lier than the date of manufacture of the certified vehicle (as specified on the certification label), and no later than the date alterations were com- pleted.
(2) If the gross vehicle weight rating or any of the gross axle weight ratings of the vehicle as altered are different from those shown on the original cer- tification label, the modified values shall be provided in the form specified in § 567.4(g)(3) and (4).
(3) If the vehicle as altered has a dif- ferent type classification from that shown on the original certification label, the type as modified shall be pro- vided.

My point is... I'm not convinced that changing a spring pack is actually meeting the criteria as noted in the regulations. Not even disputing that you got a sticker, but I am hesitant to accept that a spring pack is enough to modify the GVWR as assigned by the vehicle manufacturer.

In fact I will ask a lifelong friend who modifies chassis into streetsweepers for an international market his take on the subject. I make several millions of dollars worth of parts for his company every year. I figure he might know the answer.. what you think??

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by Javi

My point is... I'm not convinced that changing a spring pack is actually meeting the criteria as noted in the regulations. Not even disputing that you got a sticker, but I am hesitant to accept that a spring pack is enough to modify the GVWR as assigned by the vehicle manufacturer.

In fact I will ask a lifelong friend who modifies chassis into streetsweepers for an international market his take on the subject. I make several millions of dollars worth of parts for his company every year. I figure he might know the answer.. what you think??

Javi I think Mikelff has the answer he wants regardless of what anyone says....and has said so in countless posts.....

[Javi]

Originally Posted by sourdough

Javi I think Mikelff has the answer he wants regardless of what anyone says....and has said so in countless posts.....

Well he is from Keller and we all know what that means 😏

[Mikelff]

Originally Posted by Javi

My point is... I'm not convinced that changing a spring pack is actually meeting the criteria as noted in the regulations. Not even disputing that you got a sticker, but I am hesitant to accept that a spring pack is enough to modify the GVWR as assigned by the vehicle manufacturer.

In fact I will ask a lifelong friend who modifies chassis into streetsweepers for an international market his take on the subject. I make several millions of dollars worth of parts for his company every year. I figure he might know the answer.. what you think??

Obviously, Im not going to try to convince you. Nor do I care about some guys opinion that makes street sweepers. I think its up to the NTSB/DOT and the folks that make the regulations. If your friend worked for the NTSB/DOT, you might get my attention. Otherwise, his “opinion” really doesn’t matter. You should call up the NTSB and inform them that they are wrong because your friend that makes street sweepers says so. Lol. Next!