Attention all Weight Police!!!!

[rhagfo]

To all the weight police that jump on those towing a 5er with a 2500/250, the maximum GVWR for 250/2500 has changed for GM and Ford.

I was aware that GM now gives a Max Tow 2500 Dmax a GVWR of 11,300#! This really makes it a class 3 truck, but the badge still states 2500. This is just 200# less than an F350 SRW had for years, up to about 2020.

Ford is a bit more conservative, it gives a diesel F250 a max GVWR of 10,800#, still makes it a class 3 truck.

I don't believe that Ram has chosen this route yet, their last move in GVWR was in 2013 & 2014 for the 3500 and 2500. In 2013 Ram 3500 SRW jumped to 12,300#, and DRW went to 14,000#. In 2014 the 2500 was given a GVWR of 10,000#.

[nellie1289]

they are still probably under rated at that even. Im sure the guns are lining up at me now.

As a side note i did look at a gentlemen's 2021 ram 2500 parked next to me in camp spot this week. Bighorn, cummins, 2WD cc lb(i have never even seen a 2wd in real life before. Payload tag on it was 2320. So clearly no movement from Ram. He was towing a 36 ft fiver, said it tows great, i figured he was likely over payload for sure, it was a Signature Forest River rockwood.

[sourdough]

Thanks Russ. How does that old question go that the "weight police" ask every time? "What's that yellow sticker say inside the driver door"?

You could tell by the new numbers coming out on the new GMs something was in the air and they were playing "the numbers" again.

[markcee]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

To all the weight police that jump on those towing a 5er with a 2500/250, the maximum GVWR for 250/2500 has changed for GM and Ford.

I was aware that GM now gives a Max Tow 2500 Dmax a GVWR of 11,300#! This really makes it a class 3 truck, but the badge still states 2500. This is just 200# less than an F350 SRW had for years, up to about 2020.

Ford is a bit more conservative, it gives a diesel F250 a max GVWR of 10,800#, still makes it a class 3 truck.

I don't believe that Ram has chosen this route yet, their last move in GVWR was in 2013 & 2014 for the 3500 and 2500. In 2013 Ram 3500 SRW jumped to 12,300#, and DRW went to 14,000#. In 2014 the 2500 was given a GVWR of 10,000#.

Lol@ 'those that jump on......' It's great that the GVWRs have been increased. I can only presume that modifications have been made by the manufacturer to allow these increases.

My apologies if you're being sarcastic, but I never see the weight police as being on the attack. It's an attempt to educate. I appreciated the education I received on this subject. Even though it was hard to take, I never took it as getting 'jumped' on. Embarrassed by my ignorance? You bet, but overall I received it as assistance being offered by those that know better.

Unless an extreme case (F150, 38' TH) I don't think I've ever seen a thread here where a person was getting questioned for towing with a particular vehicle. It's the individual ratings (on either the TV or the RV) they provided that led to the questioning.

In many posts, TV's are simply stated as "....it's rated to tow 13,500 lbs!". Of course this is going to lead to additional queries, but even then the replies are overwhelmingly in the the spirit of keeping everyone safe, not jumping on them.

Sorry, my 2 cents turned into a nickel!

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by nellie1289

they are still probably under rated at that even. Im sure the guns are lining up at me now.

As a side note i did look at a gentlemen's 2021 ram 2500 parked next to me in camp spot this week. Bighorn, cummins, 2WD cc lb(i have never even seen a 2wd in real life before. Payload tag on it was 2320. So clearly no movement from Ram. He was towing a 36 ft fiver, said it tows great, i figured he was likely over payload for sure, it was a Signature Forest River rockwood.

Well have you scaled your new package?

That Montana 3854BR has a dry weight of 13,934# and a GVWR of 16,900# and a dry pin of 2,940# which is only 17.5% of dry weight. Put 2,000# in that rig, and 20% pin is 3,187#, you might hit the scales. Your Ram being a loaded option package likely has a payload in the 3,800# range.

As to your neighbor, sure it tows great, he is pulling a 5er!

This is something I have pointed out many times before. That is that a 5er is extremely stable when towing, they will also tow great when over TV payload, I should know I towed our 5er at 1,400# to 1,700# over TV GVWR with out 2001 Ram 2500 CTD for years, NEVER a handling issue, never a braking issue, even when a idiot would pull out in front of us.

[nellie1289]

I have already been challenged on this multiple times. My payload sticker is 4100 lbs, i have rolled the scales multiple times with pin weight at 3200-3300, and about 3900 on the truck with hitch and me and DW in the truck. Within limits. Thanks

[Bill-2020]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

Ford is a bit more conservative, it gives a diesel F250 a max GVWR of 10,800#, still makes it a class 3 truck.

Interesting - so are those model year 2021 numbers? My 2020 F250 shows a 10,000 GVWR. MFG'D Sept. 2020.

[Brantel]

Originally Posted by Bill-2020

Interesting - so are those model year 2021 numbers? My 2020 F250 shows a 10,000 GVWR. MFG'D Sept. 2020.

My 2020 F250 is 10,800.

Check your window sticker, was it ordered with the derating package?

[xrated]

Originally Posted by Brantel

My 2020 F250 is 10,800.

Check your window sticker, was it ordered with the derating package?

I'm curious, so what does the sticker on the door of your truck say, now that the GVWR is 10,800 lbs? I'm going to make a wild guess and say between 2900-3000 lbs.

[Brantel]

Originally Posted by xrated

I'm curious, so what does the sticker on the door of your truck say, now that the GVWR is 10,800 lbs? I'm going to make a wild guess and say between 2900-3000 lbs.

2906 is the sticker rating. Another tidbit is my truck's actual curb weight is 114lbs less than GVWR-Payload rating.

[garysol1]

I will never understand for the life of me why anyone buys a 3/4 ton truck to tow a 5th wheel with when for not very much more money they could have bought a 3500SRW and have that much more payload capacity. Unloaded ride quality is comparable between the 3/4T and 1T (Ram at least). I just don't get it the reasoning.

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by Bill-2020

Interesting - so are those model year 2021 numbers? My 2020 F250 shows a 10,000 GVWR. MFG'D Sept. 2020.
__________________
2020 Passport 239ML
2020 F250 XLT CC 6.2 4x4

Originally Posted by Brantel

My 2020 F250 is 10,800.

Check your window sticker, was it ordered with the derating package?
__________________
2021 Keystone Cougar Half-Ton 32BHS 5th Wheel
2020 F-250SD, XLT Pre, CC, SWB, 4WD, FX4, HCTP, 6.7 PSD, 3.55 e-lock, Blue Jeans Metallic, Curt A16/R24 Slider

I believe the 10,800# GVWR is only available for the 6.7 diesel.

[xrated]

Originally Posted by Brantel

2906 is the sticker rating. Another tidbit is my truck's actual curb weight is 114lbs less than GVWR-Payload rating.

Was that with a full tank of fuel?

And thanks for posting the payload number.....my guess seems to be right on the money, based on the increase from 10K to 10.8K GVWR.

[Javi]

I've never understood the obsession with buying JUST ENOUGH TRUCK, but I have a buddy that will always buy just enough... be it a truck, a machining center, a fishing rod, a camper or anything else; heck he even has me design stuff for him that will barely do the job and I mean barely, no safety margin, no excess capability...

And nearly every time he will be fussing about it within a year..

[roadglide]

This year at the Florida state RV show in Tampa, sales man and I talking about particular half time and 3/4 ton fifth wheel towable. I had some questions about size of the of the rv his answer was not with the new trucks . GM went with front end that allowed for 20 inch rims and bigger tires that allowed for higher index load range .

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by markcee

Lol@ 'those that jump on......' It's great that the GVWRs have been increased. I can only presume that modifications have been made by the manufacturer to allow these increases.

My apologies if you're being sarcastic, but I never see the weight police as being on the attack. It's an attempt to educate. I appreciated the education I received on this subject. Even though it was hard to take, I never took it as getting 'jumped' on. Embarrassed by my ignorance? You bet, but overall I received it as assistance being offered by those that know better.

Unless an extreme case (F150, 38' TH) I don't think I've ever seen a thread here where a person was getting questioned for towing with a particular vehicle. It's the individual ratings (on either the TV or the RV) they provided that led to the questioning.

In many posts, TV's are simply stated as "....it's rated to tow 13,500 lbs!". Of course this is going to lead to additional queries, but even then the replies are overwhelmingly in the the spirit of keeping everyone safe, not jumping on them.

Sorry, my 2 cents turned into a nickel!

Well I agree that the responses are to educate, but some (mine at times also) are a bit abrupt.
So now days some labeled 3/4 tons, have more than a 10,000# GVWR, just to muddy the waters.

As to changes to the truck it's self, I doubt that any changes were made other than to make sure the tires had enough capacity.

Now to another issue with all of this!
I started this post based on responces to this post https://www.keystoneforums.com/forum...ad.php?t=46218

In this post Marine9007 has a 2021 Montana HC 331RL being towed by a 2021 Silverado 2500HD Diesel w/max towing 18500lb.
The Silverado has a payload of 3,146# (Door Sticker), he states payload of 3,198.

Now looking at his door sticker below! He has a payload of 3,146# BUT a max gooseneck pin rating of 2,775# a difference of 371# WHY??

I think we all assume that less the driver and passengers, what remained of payload was available for pin weight.



,

[Laredo Tugger]

Originally Posted by garysol1

I will never understand for the life of me why anyone buys a 3/4 ton truck to tow a 5th wheel with when for not very much more money they could have bought a 3500SRW and have that much more payload capacity. Unloaded ride quality is comparable between the 3/4T and 1T (Ram at least). I just don't get it the reasoning.

I agree.
We just returned from a camping trip and stayed in 4 different campgrounds over two weeks. Take a walk around these campgrounds (and any others) and you will see MANY 250/2500s sitting in front of and towing large fifth wheels. Why? The misconception of the realities of liability. For whatever reason, a 3500 is to expensive, the dealer (truck or trailer, both) said I was "fine", DW doesn't like the ride of a 3500, I am only going short distances camping , the air bags will make up the difference in payload or it is cheaper to register my 250/2500, you will continue to see these towing combinations. There is not much that can be done except to educate prospective owners to consider and calculate their weights. Maybe if RV sales were dependent upon certified scale readings prior to a sale this would change. But we all know that is not going to happen.
So when I see a 250/2500 TV towing a large fifth wheel with it's nose in the air, I just figure that is he attitude of the driver as well and they will not be convinced of anything different.
And now, with this thread we have bigger numbers to add to the above "reasons".
If you are in the above category ( a 250/2500 owner) do not think this is a "my truck is better" post. Not at all, just an observation and an invitation to math class.
RMc

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by garysol1

I will never understand for the life of me why anyone buys a 3/4 ton truck to tow a 5th wheel with when for not very much more money they could have bought a 3500SRW and have that much more payload capacity. Unloaded ride quality is comparable between the 3/4T and 1T (Ram at least). I just don't get it the reasoning.

Originally Posted by Laredo Tugger

I agree.
We just returned from a camping trip and stayed in 4 different campgrounds over two weeks. Take a walk around these campgrounds (and any others) and you will see MANY 250/2500s sitting in front of and towing large fifth wheels. Why? The misconception of the realities of liability. For whatever reason, a 3500 is to expensive, the dealer (truck or trailer, both) said I was "fine", DW doesn't like the ride of a 3500, I am only going short distances camping , the air bags will make up the difference in payload or it is cheaper to register my 250/2500, you will continue to see these towing combinations. There is not much that can be done except to educate prospective owners to consider and calculate their weights. Maybe if RV sales were dependent upon certified scale readings prior to a sale this would change. But we all know that is not going to happen.
So when I see a 250/2500 TV towing a large fifth wheel with it's nose in the air, I just figure that is he attitude of the driver as well and they will not be convinced of anything different.
And now, with this thread we have bigger numbers to add to the above "reasons".
If you are in the above category ( a 250/2500 owner) do not think this is a "my truck is better" post. Not at all, just an observation and an invitation to math class.
RMc
__________________
2018 Ram 3500 SRW Aisin Trans. HO CTD
Air Lift Bags -Curt 16K Slider Hitch
2017 Laredo 350 FB

Well you covered many of the reasons why many tow with a 2500, you did miss one. That is have you ever walked a dealers lot? Likely 10+ 2500's to every 3500 SRW, and likely 10+ 3500 SRW to every 3500 DRW.
You mentioned air bags, many say they install for better ride, reduce bounce. I never have used, instead I installed quality towing shocks, Bilstein's on the old 2001 Ram 2500, and it towed very well, and due to the camper package sat level even 1,700# over GVWR.
I have also seen some 350/3500 SRW towing 20,000# 5ers, and yes headlights to the stars.
The biggest challenge in the education process with an overweight 5er is the "It tows fine why change" feeling.
Unlike a overweight or too long TT, there is almost no ill handling effects for being well over weight with a 5er.

[sourdough]

Like Russ pointed out above I doubt there was much, if anything, done by GM/Ford to change their trucks to allow for a higher posted payload. It's just a sales ploy IMO.

I think it's a disservice to any/all owners/potential owners and is an intentional action to confuse buyers over the weight situation. I also figure it's done by marketing people that have no concept of towing requirements, particularly an RV, nor do they care.....they simply want a "leg up" over the other guy. And, these types of actions then lead to the situations that Laredo, and the rest of us, observe.

An unfortunate side effect of these kinds of actions is the inability to help potential buyers of a particular sized truck without specific information from the exact prospective truck because the weights for a particular sized truck can vary much, much more than they used to.

I detest government meddling in most things but if truck manufacturers are going to start playing these games to this degree, which IMO is not only confusing but could be dangerous, there should be set gvw limits for each weight class across the board period.

I've never understood the concept of "derating" simply to save money. If it can carry X then pay for it whether you load to it or not. My current truck, to my surprise, was registered for 8800lbs. - that's 8800lbs. for a 1 ton truck. When I saw that when I got the registration in the mail I promptly went to the DMV and questioned them. She said that's what they always did for a truck that size because people didn't want to pay the high price for the increased weight. High price? It doubled the cost to go to 12,400 but that was only $75 year extra. That's pure BS to me.

Ideally a weight should be set for each class of truck (1/2, 3/4, 1ton etc.), the weight published and trucks built to it. Obviously payloads would vary slightly depending on accessories and trim levels but the base numbers would be there for prospective buyers vs 1/2 ton rated like 3/4 tons; 3/4 tons rated as 1/2-1 tons and 1 tons rated like 1/2 - 2 tons as it is now. Silly.

In the end it is 100% up to the prospective buyer to do their due diligence and KNOW what they are getting into but the more the manufacturers continue to try to blur all the lines the more of those nose high 3/4 tons we'll see at the park with that 45' 5th wheel behind them. Just my nickels worth.

[Brantel]

Originally Posted by xrated

Was that with a full tank of fuel?

And thanks for posting the payload number.....my guess seems to be right on the money, based on the increase from 10K to 10.8K GVWR.

Yep, full fuel...