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Old 10-14-2020, 06:07 PM   #21
Gegrad
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Originally Posted by sourdough View Post
I think I probably like that sticker. It gives all the info right there in one place instead of different stickers etc. The towing capacity portion on the bottom looks like just a retype of their brochures/spec sheets but it's still nice to see it all in one place. And another helpful thing IMO; at the top of the list of the actual critical weights it states "MUST NOT EXCEED ANY OF THESE VALUES". So many argue all kinds of off the wall things about why one (or more) weight can be ignored as long as you do "abc". This explicitly states, in no uncertain terms, what we've said forever - they are all equally important and all must be adhered to....I like that.
Agreed, can't tell you many yahoos on the FB Travel Trailer group keep on supporting the old tired "your 1/2 ton is rated to tow 10,000, of course you can tow that 9,200 GVWR trailer just fine!" Maybe it start to convince those yahoos the importance of more than the meaningless "tow rating".
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Old 10-14-2020, 11:01 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by markcee View Post
All fluids, including a full tank of fuel are included
Well, that answers another question I always wondered about.
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Old 10-14-2020, 11:05 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by jsb5717 View Post
\I've also been seeing different numbers for different types of trailers. Makes sense since a TT will put stress on a truck differently than a 5er. It is interesting they that sticker is differentiating between pin weight and payload. Looks like they don't want all of the payload sitting in the one spot or they are accounting for people as well in the larger number since the truck won't drive itself without people...yet.
Right, I would assume the difference is front-axle loading, like passengers. As to the difference in gooseneck and conventional, perhaps this just reflects the separate load limit for the under-bumper receiver.
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Old 10-15-2020, 12:25 AM   #24
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You can look up the SAE J2807 standards the numbers are based on to explain the difference between the "payload" and "tongue weight". A good summary is at https://fifthwheelst.com/SAE-J2807-Tow-Tests.html. For example, this says it's calculated with these adjustments for Ram trucks:

Trailer Weight Rating and Tow Vehicle Trailering Weight are calculated as specified in SAE J2807.
Passenger Weight = 300 lb.
Options Weight = 100 lb.
Trailering Equipment Weight: 75 lb. for Conventional Hitch, 70 lb. for Gooseneck and 250 lb. for 5th Wheel.
Tongue weight: 10 percent of the gross trailer weight for Conventional Hitch, 15 percent of the gross trailer weight for
a 5th Wheel or Gooseneck hitch.
Payload and GAWR should never be exceeded and must account for all of the above weights, including the appropriate
trailering equipment and tongue weight.
Box Off Body Completion Weight = 80 lb. per foot from end of cab to end of frame.


So those weights are being deducted from the total payload to get the tongue/pin weights that they tested with. It would be nice if all HD trucks had that sticker in them so you didn't need to go search for a PDF somewhere.
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Old 10-15-2020, 01:55 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by aaron_huber View Post
You can look up the SAE J2807 standards the numbers are based on to explain the difference between the "payload" and "tongue weight". A good summary is at https://fifthwheelst.com/SAE-J2807-Tow-Tests.html. For example, this says it's calculated with these adjustments for Ram trucks:

Trailer Weight Rating and Tow Vehicle Trailering Weight are calculated as specified in SAE J2807.
Passenger Weight = 300 lb.
Options Weight = 100 lb.
Trailering Equipment Weight: 75 lb. for Conventional Hitch, 70 lb. for Gooseneck and 250 lb. for 5th Wheel.
Tongue weight: 10 percent of the gross trailer weight for Conventional Hitch, 15 percent of the gross trailer weight for
a 5th Wheel or Gooseneck hitch.
Payload and GAWR should never be exceeded and must account for all of the above weights, including the appropriate
trailering equipment and tongue weight.
Box Off Body Completion Weight = 80 lb. per foot from end of cab to end of frame.


So those weights are being deducted from the total payload to get the tongue/pin weights that they tested with. It would be nice if all HD trucks had that sticker in them so you didn't need to go search for a PDF somewhere.
That is a step in the right direction as long as GVWR and GAWR are to only true weight factors. That new GM tag gives some real world pin and tongue weights that the sticker payload number can deal with. Even at that 15% pin is awfully light for a pin weight percentage.
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Old 10-15-2020, 03:35 PM   #26
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So if I'm understanding this, the OEM is attempting to better refine their testing for payload using these various weights. They are providing the info so the buyer will have some basic guidelines for what he needs to consider. But the buyer will still need to do his own math for his own application to assure that he is within the posted payload limits...just like before.


Or is this info saying that if the OEM posted a trucks payload at 3000 lbs that that number is already accounting for 300 lbs for people, 100 lbs for gear, etc?
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Old 10-15-2020, 03:53 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by jsb5717 View Post
So if I'm understanding this, the OEM is attempting to better refine their testing for payload using these various weights. They are providing the info so the buyer will have some basic guidelines for what he needs to consider. But the buyer will still need to do his own math for his own application to assure that he is within the posted payload limits...just like before.


Or is this info saying that if the OEM posted a trucks payload at 3000 lbs that that number is already accounting for 300 lbs for people, 100 lbs for gear, etc?

A better question would be how they came up with 15 percent hitch weight for a fifth wheel. That seems a tad low to my untrained eye.
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Old 10-15-2020, 04:16 PM   #28
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A better question would be how they came up with 15 percent hitch weight for a fifth wheel. That seems a tad low to my untrained eye.
I agree, it goes against the "conventional norms" that I've seen published. Sadly, that no longer surprises me.
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Old 10-15-2020, 05:23 PM   #29
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"They" (whoever you want to blame for the tongue/pin weight percentages) all started with the way SAE 2807 defined the tongue weight standards.

In paragraph 4.4.2.4, SAE defines the process to adjust the ballast on conventional trailers for the tests. It instructs to adjust the ballast to attain a 10% tongue weight based on the total weight of the trailer.

In paragraph 4.4.2.5, SAE defines the process for fifth wheel and gooseneck trailers the same way with the ballast adjusted to attain a total pin weight of 15% of the total trailer weight.

So, since "they" defined and conducted the tests using 10% and 15% as the weights, "they" advertise them in their charts... It matters not that NONE of us will ever see that kind of tongue/pin weight on a travel trailer, "we" are a small, (likely insignificant percentage) of trailer users.... I'd suspect that most boats, utility trailers, gravel trailers can (and are) capable of attaining tongue/pin weights that reflect 10% or 15% of their total weight... For us, with travel trailers, it's a fantasy to even believe it's attainable, much less that the majority of us will ever see such hitch weights in practice.....

You can download the entire SAE 2807 test procedure and doublecheck the paragraphs above to get you to the "section pertaining to trailer weights" at this link: https://www.52yufa.com/download?id=58 NOTE: There are two advertisements on the link, one above and one below the actual download tab. Don't click on the advertisements, click on the blue "download" tab located between them.
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Old 10-15-2020, 06:06 PM   #30
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I read SAE J2807 when it came out thinking it was great to have some "standardized", real world numbers. I came away figuring, as the observations above indicate, they came up with a standard to more or less reflect what the manufacturers were posting as advertised numbers. 10% tongue weight on a fully loaded TT? And it's supposed to behave? 15% on a 5th wheel pin? There's real life and ??? At least the sticker use the phrase "must not exceed" and gave all the relevant numbers in one place vs 2 stickers.
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Old 10-17-2020, 06:20 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by sourdough View Post
I read SAE J2807 when it came out thinking it was great to have some "standardized", real world numbers. I came away figuring, as the observations above indicate, they came up with a standard to more or less reflect what the manufacturers were posting as advertised numbers. 10% tongue weight on a fully loaded TT? And it's supposed to behave? 15% on a 5th wheel pin? There's real life and ??? At least the sticker use the phrase "must not exceed" and gave all the relevant numbers in one place vs 2 stickers.
Danny, I agree with the ridiculous low hitch weight percentages they give for both a TT and 5er. You might get a decent ride at 17% on a triple axle 5er, but a tandem axle needs at least 20%.
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Old 10-17-2020, 08:30 AM   #32
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Danny, I agree with the ridiculous low hitch weight percentages they give for both a TT and 5er. You might get a decent ride at 17% on a triple axle 5er, but a tandem axle needs at least 20%.
Just another darkening of the already very muddy waters by the manufacturers & their posting of ridiculous tow weights that don't/won't seem to understand that towing RVs is not like towing other trailers.
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Old 10-17-2020, 08:51 AM   #33
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Everyone with newer trucks can go to the manufacturers website and punch in your vin. I know ram does this for my 2014 3500. It gives you a payload and max towing for your exact vin as the truck is equipped. Stop guessing !!!
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Old 10-17-2020, 09:00 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by nellie1289 View Post
Everyone with newer trucks can go to the manufacturers website and punch in your vin. I know ram does this for my 2014 3500. It gives you a payload and max towing for your exact vin as the truck is equipped. Stop guessing !!!
And the payload was only valid at the moment it left the factory, before the dealer addons and whatever you have added. Payload is a fluid number based on GVWR minus the actual weight at that particular moment in time.
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Old 10-17-2020, 09:35 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by nellie1289 View Post
Everyone with newer trucks can go to the manufacturers website and punch in your vin. I know ram does this for my 2014 3500. It gives you a payload and max towing for your exact vin as the truck is equipped. Stop guessing !!!

I suspect you can't plug in a VIN on the Ford site. Just looked and no bueno. SINCE FORD HAS THE MOST ASTRONOMICAL HIGHEST PAYLOAD AND TOWING IN THE INDUSTRY, guess they figure you just need to take the word of their model brochures.
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Old 10-17-2020, 11:12 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by nellie1289 View Post
Everyone with newer trucks can go to the manufacturers website and punch in your vin. I know ram does this for my 2014 3500. It gives you a payload and max towing for your exact vin as the truck is equipped. Stop guessing !!!
The problem with your conceptual hopes of what a manufacturer posts about any specific truck is that the SAE J2807 standard is based on "all types of trailers" and was sold (or bargained away) with fictitious trailer tongue/pin weights that will NEVER be seen in today's RV's. NOBODY will tow a 30' travel trailer with a 10% tongue weight and NOBODY will tow a 38' fifth wheel with a 15% pin weight. You can achieve those gross trailer/tongue or pin weights with a boat on a trailer, with a couple of ATV's on a flatbed trailer or with a farm tractor on a trailer, but you can't achieve those weight/tongue ratios on an RV....

So, going to a MOPAR site to get a "maximum trailer towing capacity" will get you a "generalized trailer recommendation" that is APPLES to ORANGES different than any RV maximum towing capacity because you can't achieve the weight/tongue ratios used to validate those "SAE J2807 test results" ...

It's like saying, "I can swim downstream for 2 miles before I get tired"... Try that same 2 miles on the return trip, swimming upstream.... You will get tired much faster... or possibly, you'll drown doing what you could do under different circumstances.....

So, if you use RAM's max trailer weight for a "conventional flatbed trailer" to justify your "unconventional RV trailer" you'll find that you're "underwater, swimming upstream on the return trip" whether you want to be or not.... Trailers aren't all "the same thing when strapped behind a truck" and you can't rely on max weights for one type of trailer when you're towing an entirely different type of trailer with the same truck.....
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Old 10-17-2020, 11:20 AM   #37
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And the payload was only valid at the moment it left the factory, before the dealer addons and whatever you have added. Payload is a fluid number based on GVWR minus the actual weight at that particular moment in time.
Javi, very well stated!!
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Old 10-17-2020, 05:29 PM   #38
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I think you are over thinking this, im talking about the max payload your truck has, and then once you are inside the payload for any specific trailer you are going to pull based on its pin weight, how much max trailer weight you can have. This is why i keep saying stop guessing.

As it relates to payload, of course any add ons would change it. A lot of people are not adding jack squat to the truck, maybe some heavier tires and rims or something probaly the most common add. I am suggesting the website for ease of reference. IF you have put 1000 lbs of lead in your truck, adjust accordingly.
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Old 10-17-2020, 06:33 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by nellie1289 View Post
I think you are over thinking this, im talking about the max payload your truck has, and then once you are inside the payload for any specific trailer you are going to pull based on its pin weight, how much max trailer weight you can have. This is why i keep saying stop guessing.

As it relates to payload, of course any add ons would change it. A lot of people are not adding jack squat to the truck, maybe some heavier tires and rims or something probaly the most common add. I am suggesting the website for ease of reference. IF you have put 1000 lbs of lead in your truck, adjust accordingly.
Good idea going to the manu website to check. Shows your payload shows your max tow. Weigh your truck loaded know your payload weight. Dont go over combined weight life is good. Its actually very simple math. The manu didnt build trucks just for our campers and i do feel they give all the info you need to figure it out. I agree with your above post.
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Old 10-17-2020, 09:50 PM   #40
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Everyone with newer trucks can go to the manufacturers website and punch in your vin. I know ram does this for my 2014 3500. It gives you a payload and max towing for your exact vin as the truck is equipped. Stop guessing !!!
Much easier to just open the driver's door!
That will give you payload, axle weights & GVWR!
If for some reason, other than bragging "mines bigger" like the manufacturer, you could enter your vin# & get the max tow weight which means nothing in the real rv towing world.
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