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Old 02-27-2022, 11:23 AM   #41
WDPatterson
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Originally Posted by Island Eddie View Post
My trailer has been sitting 3 weeks at CW regarding my axles.
Last I heard was that it needed new axles and other stuff.

Sorry, don't mean to be vague, the conversation was hurried, and answers were not readily available from the tech, I was talking to a supervisor, who was looking into the matter, and our extended warranty, etc.

It's been frustrating to say the least.

My gut feeling is I think best case scenario is they replace it, and I am thinking I'll be saddled again with the same minimal axles, that failed already.

My questions guys is should I just go get my trailer and take it to a private trailer repair shop, and have a better axle installed?

I have 3500's on there now, and that just seems to be too small, if you tally everything up, and take into account the bumping strain roads can have by adding more stress.

This is my trailer, and the data, etc.

https://www.rvusa.com/rv-guide/2019-...5rbiwe-tr38196

I have thought about going a little smaller, but we love this floor plan and opposing slides, it really gives us room, and overall, we want to keep it.

Since I will be paying for it out of my pocket, what might I expect to pay, anybody have any idea?

I need to decide this week, we have half a dozen trips already booked.


THANKS guys
I screenshot Keystone's "weight specs". They are liable for any damages incurred by their underating the axles for the gross weight of your trailer.
Your trailer axles are 3,500 lb, for a total of 7000 pounds, while the gross weight of that trailer is 7600 lb. That's 600 pounds over the rated capacity of those axles. Doesn't matter what the engineering threshold of those axles is, it's what they are rated for.
They should have put heavier axles on it from the factory.
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Old 02-27-2022, 11:38 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by WDPatterson View Post
I screenshot Keystone's "weight specs". They are liable for any damages incurred by their underating the axles for the gross weight of your trailer.
Your trailer axles are 3,500 lb, for a total of 7000 pounds, while the gross weight of that trailer is 7600 lb. That's 600 pounds over the rated capacity of those axles. Doesn't matter what the engineering threshold of those axles is, it's what they are rated for.
They should have put heavier axles on it from the factory.
"Should have" and "required to" are different... I'll agree, Keystone "cut it close" with 7000 pounds of axle rating on a 7600 pound trailer, but depending on the "declared tongue weight", if it's greater than 600 pounds, they are "prefectly legal with those axles"... Now, "should have" is an entirely different story and yes, "they probably should have used heavier axles", but depending on tires, wheels, springs, spring hangers, it may not have made much difference, even if they'd have put 8000 pound axles as long as the tires are rated for 2150 each.....
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Old 02-27-2022, 11:50 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
"Should have" and "required to" are different... I'll agree, Keystone "cut it close" with 7000 pounds of axle rating on a 7600 pound trailer, but depending on the "declared tongue weight", if it's greater than 600 pounds, they are "prefectly legal with those axles"... Now, "should have" is an entirely different story and yes, "they probably should have used heavier axles", but depending on tires, wheels, springs, spring hangers, it may not have made much difference, even if they'd have put 8000 pound axles as long as the tires are rated for 2150 each.....
Agreed... They're playing the numbers game. It hasn't escaped me that we're looking at several layers of corporate management and separation in order to alleviate liabilities on the part of the top dog. Think about who owns who, and you get only part of the answer.
Keystone is owned by Thor Industries, which is owned by Berkshire Hathaway... Might be some more in the middle. I don't know. But, that amount of separation makes bad things happen. Always do your homework, always leave some room.
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Old 02-27-2022, 12:15 PM   #44
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Agreed... They're playing the numbers game. It hasn't escaped me that we're looking at several layers of corporate management and separation in order to alleviate liabilities on the part of the top dog. Think about who owns who, and you get only part of the answer.
Keystone is owned by Thor Industries, which is owned by Berkshire Hathaway... Might be some more in the middle. I don't know. But, that amount of separation makes bad things happen. Always do your homework, always leave some room.
IMO, even though I believe it's "not right" to sell a trailer that's built to "minimum standards with a tiny bit of safety reserves"... Every manufacturer builds to pretty much the same standards... It's what the buying public will pay for and, in most situations, what they want...

As an example, if you add $1000 in upgrade tires, wheels and axles under a trailer that's built on a BAL NOCO lightweight frame (that then becomes the weakest link), you've added enough increased cost to put the trailer out of the "same size/price market" and you won't sell any of the stronger trailers to the general public.

Even a majority of those who recognize the improved value will opt for the lighter weight, lower price trailer based on "monthly payments and 10% down dollar value"...

JAYCO, about 3 years ago, started installing Goodyear Endurance ST tires on all their trailer lines... That added about $100 to the MSRP. They no longer do that, and Endurance tires are now an "extra cost option" on most of their trailer brands. They found out that they "lost sales to Forest River and Keystone" because the competition trailers "cost less than JAYCO"......

It boils down to "if there's a trailer that's "a dollar cheaper", the vast majority of "uneducated about trailers" public will "run across the street to buy the cheaper one.....

So, no matter what Keystone does to "improve the reserve margins" if it makes the trailer cost more, all they're doing is "limiting their market share"...

FICKLE CONSUMERS !!!!! translated, that means, "blame ourselves".....
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Old 02-27-2022, 01:06 PM   #45
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If all the weight is on the axles those leaf springs are not even close to flat.
That was FULLY loaded, at the campsite, and maybe a day of waste in the tanks already.
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Old 02-27-2022, 02:41 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
IMO, even though I believe it's "not right" to sell a trailer that's built to "minimum standards with a tiny bit of safety reserves"... Every manufacturer builds to pretty much the same standards... It's what the buying public will pay for and, in most situations, what they want...

As an example, if you add $1000 in upgrade tires, wheels and axles under a trailer that's built on a BAL NOCO lightweight frame (that then becomes the weakest link), you've added enough increased cost to put the trailer out of the "same size/price market" and you won't sell any of the stronger trailers to the general public.

Even a majority of those who recognize the improved value will opt for the lighter weight, lower price trailer based on "monthly payments and 10% down dollar value"...

JAYCO, about 3 years ago, started installing Goodyear Endurance ST tires on all their trailer lines... That added about $100 to the MSRP. They no longer do that, and Endurance tires are now an "extra cost option" on most of their trailer brands. They found out that they "lost sales to Forest River and Keystone" because the competition trailers "cost less than JAYCO"......

It boils down to "if there's a trailer that's "a dollar cheaper", the vast majority of "uneducated about trailers" public will "run across the street to buy the cheaper one.....

So, no matter what Keystone does to "improve the reserve margins" if it makes the trailer cost more, all they're doing is "limiting their market share"...

FICKLE CONSUMERS !!!!! translated, that means, "blame ourselves".....

Agreed, you hit the nail on the head.
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Old 02-27-2022, 03:13 PM   #47
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About huck bolts.....

We use them on commercial aircraft, but never on primary structure that I am aware of.

The problem with them is that they are only as good as the hole they are in.
Meaning if the angularity is not perfect, neither is the bolts loading.

We would use a feeler gauge on EVERY bolt to check for gap.....

Even after a hole was measured and certain to be true, the angle the tool was held when you pulled the trigger is where the bolt came to rest.

If it wasn't completely flush, you now had a compromised fay surface.
Maybe as much as 50%, and that presents a real weak joint.

It's takes time to perfect its use, 12 bucks an hour won't get you nowhere near a perfect huck bolt install.

Thinking the government will catch this for our safety.... think again.
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Old 02-27-2022, 03:34 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Island Eddie View Post
About huck bolts.....

We use them on commercial aircraft, but never on primary structure that I am aware of.

The problem with them is that they are only as good as the hole they are in.
Meaning if the angularity is not perfect, neither is the bolts loading.

We would use a feeler gauge on EVERY bolt to check for gap.....

Even after a hole was measured and certain to be true, the angle the tool was held when you pulled the trigger is where the bolt came to rest.

If it wasn't completely flush, you now had a compromised fay surface.
Maybe as much as 50%, and that presents a real weak joint.

It's takes time to perfect its use, 12 bucks an hour won't get you nowhere near a perfect huck bolt install.

Thinking the government will catch this for our safety.... think again.
Funny thing about Huck Bolts.... I just quit making several of their testing fixtures and spin collars...
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Old 02-27-2022, 10:12 PM   #49
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The trailer builder is required to provide vehicle weight limiters. Limiters (GVWR & GAWRs) are maximum load limits for that vehicle and should never be exceeded.

All the information needed for a consumer to ensure vehicle loads are appropriate for their trailer has been provided. Some are often misinterpreted leading to vehicle overloads.

A trailer with 7600# GVWR minus the manufacturer’s recommended tongue weight of 600# is required to have axles rated high enough to support 7000# (two vehicle certified 3500# axles). There is no gimmick to those figures.
After first sale, the consumer becomes 100% responsible for tongue weights.

When the appropriate axles have been installed on the trailer at the factory, there is very little room to suspect they helped the cause of frame cracks/fractures.
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Old 02-28-2022, 04:16 AM   #50
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The trailer builder is required to provide vehicle weight limiters. Limiters (GVWR & GAWRs) are maximum load limits for that vehicle and should never be exceeded.

All the information needed for a consumer to ensure vehicle loads are appropriate for their trailer has been provided. Some are often misinterpreted leading to vehicle overloads.

A trailer with 7600# GVWR minus the manufacturer’s recommended tongue weight of 600# is required to have axles rated high enough to support 7000# (two vehicle certified 3500# axles). There is no gimmick to those figures.
After first sale, the consumer becomes 100% responsible for tongue weights.

When the appropriate axles have been installed on the trailer at the factory, there is very little room to suspect they helped the cause of frame cracks/fractures.
I am of the opinion that the major issue, as with most issues, is the lack of understanding and education.. In America most everyone is familiar with automobiles and with houses. Typically you don't overload cars and the "average" 1/2 ton truck owner may overload their truck bringing some lumber home for a deck but it's typically a short drive. Folks don't think of cumulative weight. The more space the more they fill it.

The average homeowner doesn't concern themselves with weight loading. Every year you hear about a deck colasing because 50 people were crammed on a 12' x 12' deck. Saw a story just the other day of a first floor home colapsed into the basement. They said a party of approximately 150 was in the house.

So take those same folks and place them in a new 1/2 ton truck with a camper. They think they are driving a "big truck" because their only past experiences were mid size to small cars. The buy a trailer that resembles their house, there's a bed, kitchen, sofa, closets, etc. Add in the messaging from the salesman of "you can tow anything" and "you have ALL of this storage space" and before you know it the unsuspecting consumer is in over thier head. Then some come here asking for help or are obviously over the truck's capacity and someone dare mentions the possability of their beinging an issue. They become defensive and some others that don't understand or become pity partners run to their defense. For many the manufacturer becomes the culprit.


The point is, in my thinking, is there's plenty of blame to go around. But instead of slining blame let's think of a salution. What could that solution look like? From my experience having owned boats of various sizes for decades, having earned a private pilots license, I think those industries should be studied. Let me say up front that I'm a "less is more" when it comes to regulations but there just aren't many resoutces out there ior the "new to towing" populace.

The marine industry have Coast Guard sponsored safe boating courses. Some states require liscencing or a completion and certificate to oprate a vessel. The FAA of course has strict license requirenments but back when "ultralight" aircaft became popular they amended that licensing to a "lesser standard" for operating ultralights". Seems to me that the RV industry is cerianly lacking in "self regulation" and promoted an abundance of mis-gudence to complete a sale.

This are just my opinions based on my observances and experiences, yours may differ.
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Old 02-28-2022, 04:31 AM   #51
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Yes I don’t like extra regulations either but it is crazy that someone can go from passing their driving test ( without having to parallel park) and go right to a truck dealer and rv dealer …either choose a horribly mismatched combo….3o ft TT and small suv or go right to a 1 ton pickup and toy hauler. Topping out just shy of 26000 lbs and not need any extra license or training

Go over that 26000 by a lb and you need training,extra insurance and special licensing and testing with proof of good health
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Old 02-28-2022, 06:59 AM   #52
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Yes I don’t like extra regulations either but it is crazy that someone can go from passing their driving test ( without having to parallel park) and go right to a truck dealer and rv dealer …either choose a horribly mismatched combo….3o ft TT and small suv or go right to a 1 ton pickup and toy hauler. Topping out just shy of 26000 lbs and not need any extra license or training

Go over that 26000 by a lb and you need training,extra insurance and special licensing and testing with proof of good health
Or, heaven forbid, that 16 year old with the brand new license goes to visit Grandpa and Grandma, they have a Thor Tuscany 44'10" diesel pusher (2" under the maximum length) and tow a 25' covered trailer with their Escalade in it. Gpa offers to teach the newly licensed driver how to handle their "home on wheels" (complete with garage) and off they go, from Anaheim to San Francisco with "junior behind the wheel and Gpa standing behind him monitoring his progress on the freeway......

What could go wrong .... after all, Gpa is monitoring every mile of the process.....
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Old 02-28-2022, 08:35 AM   #53
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This comment is a little off topic from the original "upsizing axles" but falls in line with the last few comments and does have a bearing on the original topic in that respect.

As newbies, overloading, lack of experience and situations they might find themselves in are discussed I will say this;

I thought last year was bad with all the new folks buying RVs, clueless, and trying to get to RV parks and "unwind". Well, this year puts last year in the shade. I never dreamed I would see SO many people with RVs trying to "get away". Since we left in Oct. and arrived here in Nov. those numbers of folks continues to climb. I thought it was bad over the winter but since Feb. this park, which is still building new sites, is full continually with folks pulling in daily it seems. Heck, they even agree to take sites still under construction.

When the owner was contemplating the park expansion (about triple in size) I discussed her plans with her and chose the space I wanted for my yearly stays then she built it up for me - very nice of her. When we discussed I told her "build it and they will come"...and they have. In my walks around the park you run into all kinds of units people are getting, from 40 year old dilapidated, no slide TTs to brand new 5th wheels and Class A diesel pushers - and everything in between. In those walks I try to visit a bit with folks I meet and they run the gamut, from experienced, old time RVers to brand new, green owners....LOTS of brand new, green owners - maiden voyage green. Many of the green folks know nothing more than what the salesman told them when they drove off and they are now trying to learn "on the fly". Those folks have no earthly idea of loading, weights, axles, tires, wheels etc. etc. All they know is if they can stuff it in and it will "go" they're golden - which ties right back in to the previous comments and the topic of the thread.
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Old 06-16-2022, 01:14 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Island Eddie View Post
My trailer has been sitting 3 weeks at CW regarding my axles.
Last I heard was that it needed new axles and other stuff.

Sorry, don't mean to be vague, the conversation was hurried, and answers were not readily available from the tech, I was talking to a supervisor, who was looking into the matter, and our extended warranty, etc.

It's been frustrating to say the least.

My gut feeling is I think best case scenario is they replace it, and I am thinking I'll be saddled again with the same minimal axles, that failed already.

My questions guys is should I just go get my trailer and take it to a private trailer repair shop, and have a better axle installed?

I have 3500's on there now, and that just seems to be too small, if you tally everything up, and take into account the bumping strain roads can have by adding more stress.

This is my trailer, and the data, etc.

https://www.rvusa.com/rv-guide/2019-...5rbiwe-tr38196

I have thought about going a little smaller, but we love this floor plan and opposing slides, it really gives us room, and overall, we want to keep it.

Since I will be paying for it out of my pocket, what might I expect to pay, anybody have any idea?

I need to decide this week, we have half a dozen trips already booked.


THANKS guys
I have a Keystone Passport 199ML. New in 2017, I bought it last year. Sticker on the side says GVWR 5400, GAWR 3500. It is a twin axle with dexter 3500. In May I left Georgia for California. First night in Forrest City, AR while blocking the wheels I find the front axle drivers side tire has half the tread gone on the inside. Axle bent. I was able to find a truck repair shop in town that went out of their way to get me back on the road. They removed the axle and I was sent back to Memphis TN to a "Trailer Axles and Springs" shop. They built me a new, heavier, straight axle in 1 hour and I was heading back to Forrest City. New axle less than $300. On my way home from California I stopped at the Trailer axle shop and picked up another axle. The stock Dexter 3500 are pre-bent so as the trailer is built the load will bend the axle to proper tire camber. That says a lot about the axle strength. I would not replace your axle with a Dexter replacement. Also get out of CW if you can.
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Old 06-21-2022, 03:11 AM   #55
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Ive been eyeballing the independent suspension with disc brakes kinda spendy but if I needed new axles I'd just bite the bullet and do it
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Old 06-21-2022, 04:30 AM   #56
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If I was doing a complete axle replacement I would investigate independent suspension with torsion suspension, not leaf springs. May as well put disc brakes on it as well, you will love them. I would also look into Vault hubs, Dexter makes them. I have them on my tandem axle boat trailer. No maintenance for 5 years+, sealed system.
Sourdough (Danny) went with disc brakes and an independent suspension from Performance Trailer Braking. I used them for my conversion to disc brakes. They may have a service tech near you, or may not. At least talk to them about your options.
https://performancetrailerbraking.com/
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Old 06-21-2022, 04:49 AM   #57
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This will put you on the right track: https://changinglanesrv.com/morryde-...nsion-upgrade/
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Old 06-21-2022, 05:34 AM   #58
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If I was doing a complete axle replacement I would investigate independent suspension with torsion suspension, not leaf springs. May as well put disc brakes on it as well, you will love them. I would also look into Vault hubs, Dexter makes them. I have them on my tandem axle boat trailer. No maintenance for 5 years+, sealed system.
Sourdough (Danny) went with disc brakes and an independent suspension from Performance Trailer Braking. I used them for my conversion to disc brakes. They may have a service tech near you, or may not. At least talk to them about your options.
https://performancetrailerbraking.com/
Very satisfied with Performance Trailer Braking, they did a great job with my disc brakes and suspension upgrade.
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Old 06-23-2022, 03:49 PM   #59
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Well I just returned from over 2000 miles pulling the trailer with the repairs made.

Pulled great, tires look new still, no wear, and had a pretty good side wind that was gusting all the way from the Columbia River to Cle Elum, Washington on the 90.

I did use a scale in Montana that was out in the middle of no-where, that a guy in a state vehicle was manning.....
I asked him if I could weigh, and get his help, etc....he was glad to have company

Strange, a scale with a digital monitor way out there, but I slowly pulled over it, watching it change readings from front truck axle, rear axle, and then trailer....

I recall the numbers being lower than what I thought they would be, and he said everything looked great, after reading my door and trailer stickers....

I do wish they would make mandatory a course on trailering, ANY size.

Odd, they do for boating now, but not for trailering and putting others at risk....go figger?

I saw lots of rigs being pulled by SUV's, I mean 20 sumtin footers, and not BIG SUV's but crossover size vehicles.??????
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