COVID-19 (Coronavirus)

[wiredgeorge]

Originally Posted by gearhead

We've been going about our business about 90% as normal.
Been to WalMart twice, grocery store twice, Home Depot twice, and used the HEB (best grocery store in the US) on line and pickup grocery service twice.
We are washing and sanitizing our hands more and I did wear nitrile gloves at the gas station yesterday.
I think I've said on here previously that I don't think our government has the authority to prevent our freedom of movement without declaring martial law, but I'm no constitutional lawyer either.

HEB stores within driving distance are about two weeks out for pickup grocery service. Walmarts schedule same day and next day and all are full of appointments already. Think we will need to go into one of these places eventually. We have been shopping at the local Family Dollar which has pretty good stocks and produce, milk, etc. We do buy stuff we can only get at one of the big box groceries so a trip now and again will be necessary. My wife won't let me go as I have one of those additional health situations that make it dangerous while she does not and she is more careful than me anyway.

[xrated]

Originally Posted by sourdough

As just a reminder to those that believe we should give up anything/everything "to be safe" as we are now with loss of jobs, closing of businesses, restrictions on association and travel....I would urge you to think a bit;

“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
Benjamin Franklin, Speech to the Pennsylvania Assembly, November 11, 1755

“He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.”
Thomas Paine, From The Writings of Thomas Paine, edited by Moncure D. Conway, 1795

“Timid men...prefer the calm of despotism to the boisterous sea of liberty.”
Thomas Jefferson to Philip Mazzei, April 24, 1796

“Straight is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to liberty, and few nations, if any, have found it.”
John Adams to Richard Rush, May 14, 1821

“We are not to expect to be translated from despotism to liberty in a featherbed.”
Thomas Jefferson, Letter to the Marquis de Lafayette, April 2, 1790

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.”
Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Colonel William S. Smith, November 13, 1787

I could go on for a long time; quotes from folks that had lived without freedom, gave up their freedom and then gained their freedom again. It is a precious thing that once taken will not be gained back without a huge sacrifice...much more than what the current virus will inflict, and, I have huge doubts that the current American population has the will to get it back if lost. Be careful what you willingly give away, if seemingly temporary, just to "feel safe" for the short term. Some things to think about - hopefully, as we while away our time under "government restraint".

I have debated posting this due to the limitations on the discussion of "politics". I do not feel this is "politics" - no left/right, liberal/conservative, current legislation, good/bad of this or that. These are comments, observations and warnings from our founding fathers that fit more than ever in this current time - for thought - no more, no less.

Thank you for that post Danny.....I for one, appreciate it!

[fatcatzzz]

Originally Posted by sourdough

As just a reminder to those that believe we should give up anything/everything "to be safe" as we are now with loss of jobs, closing of businesses, restrictions on association and travel....I would urge you to think a bit;

“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
Benjamin Franklin, Speech to the Pennsylvania Assembly, November 11, 1755

“He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.”
Thomas Paine, From The Writings of Thomas Paine, edited by Moncure D. Conway, 1795

“Timid men...prefer the calm of despotism to the boisterous sea of liberty.”
Thomas Jefferson to Philip Mazzei, April 24, 1796

“Straight is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to liberty, and few nations, if any, have found it.”
John Adams to Richard Rush, May 14, 1821

“We are not to expect to be translated from despotism to liberty in a featherbed.”
Thomas Jefferson, Letter to the Marquis de Lafayette, April 2, 1790

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.”
Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Colonel William S. Smith, November 13, 1787

I could go on for a long time; quotes from folks that had lived without freedom, gave up their freedom and then gained their freedom again. It is a precious thing that once taken will not be gained back without a huge sacrifice...much more than what the current virus will inflict, and, I have huge doubts that the current American population has the will to get it back if lost. Be careful what you willingly give away, if seemingly temporary, just to "feel safe" for the short term. Some things to think about - hopefully, as we while away our time under "government restraint".

I have debated posting this due to the limitations on the discussion of "politics". I do not feel this is "politics" - no left/right, liberal/conservative, current legislation, good/bad of this or that. These are comments, observations and warnings from our founding fathers that fit more than ever in this current time - for thought - no more, no less.

Well said Sir

[GHen]

Yes, all good quotes, from a time when most people lived on a 100 acres and grew their own food and toilet paper.
All kidding aside, I sure hope this is all done by June.

[travelin texans]

Originally Posted by GHen

Yes, all good quotes, from a time when most people lived on a 100 acres and grew their own food and toilet paper.
All kidding aside, I sure hope this is all done by June.

Thanks Danny!
I hope this is all done next week….........which will still be too late for a lot of folks to ever recover.

[Pmedic4]

You could almost argue that taking our/your RV would be social distancing. Technically, it's just me and the DW, just like we stayed at home so what's the difference, right?

Certainly you already have food, or would need to go to the store to get food for home or camping if it was needed. Perhaps you would need some fuel for your tow vehicle, that wouldn't be needed if you just stayed home. Even if you went fishing, mushroom hunting, walking the dogs, etc., you'd stay away from other people, those can be solitary activities. Also easy to justify if you can say, there are only 20 positive cases in my whole county, so I don't need to worry about being exposed.

It becomes of matter of making that personal decision to stay safe by staying home. As you can tell by my ID, I was a Paramedic, and over the 25 years of doing this, I was exposed to H1N1, Swine flu, SARS-1, HIV/AIDS MRSA, VRO, and undoubtedly many other viruses and bacteria, it's an occupational hazard, and risk we take, like all doctors, nurses and EMT's. Looking back, the biggest risks I feel were the long hours, no sleep, and fast food diet - this is different.

Don't risk yourself or anyone else you know and love, because you think the risk is low. It could be an 'all-in' bet.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Pmedic4

You could almost argue that taking our/your RV would be social distancing. Technically, it's just me and the DW, just like we stayed at home so what's the difference, right?

Certainly you already have food, or would need to go to the store to get food for home or camping if it was needed. Perhaps you would need some fuel for your tow vehicle, that wouldn't be needed if you just stayed home. Even if you went fishing, mushroom hunting, walking the dogs, etc., you'd stay away from other people, those can be solitary activities. Also easy to justify if you can say, there are only 20 positive cases in my whole county, so I don't need to worry about being exposed.

It becomes of matter of making that personal decision to stay safe by staying home. As you can tell by my ID, I was a Paramedic, and over the 25 years of doing this, I was exposed to H1N1, Swine flu, SARS-1, HIV/AIDS MRSA, VRO, and undoubtedly many other viruses and bacteria, it's an occupational hazard, and risk we take, like all doctors, nurses and EMT's. Looking back, the biggest risks I feel were the long hours, no sleep, and fast food diet - this is different.

Don't risk yourself or anyone else you know and love, because you think the risk is low. It could be an 'all-in' bet.

Well said. As for "only 20 cases in my county" if just 2 of those people were shopping in WalMart this morning, they could have exposed 50 other shoppers as well as sneezed on the meat counter, on the apples or even on the "health food section"... In these times of "ME, not you" it's extremely important to stay vigilant and protect yourself from those who are "just smart enough to come up with good reasons not to worry"....

[GHen]

It’s my opinion that those 20 tested positive cases are the tip of the iceberg. Without more testing available there could be 200 other not reported cases, not tested, light symptoms, walking around infecting everyone they come in contact with.

[flybouy]

I equate how some are treating this with the "no danger here because there just aren't that many people here" to someone standing out in the sunshine in Oklahoma or Kansas wondering why the air raid sirens are blowing. After all, it's nice and sunny here.....

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by josiahah

The flu vaccine is only for influenza, and there is still no evidence that it can resist the new coronavirus. There is still an increasing number of deaths worldwide every day, which is a very terrible thing. Staying home and taking a daily temperature check is the first thing to consider. If you do n’t have a thermometer, be sure to prepare one for yourself and your family, find it in time and treat it in time. Nothing is more important than living.

I'm sure I know where you are coming from but just taking the view that "nothing" is more important than living sort of gives me pause (just taking that statement). Lots of things, depending on the person, are more important than one's self. The collapse of the country, destruction of others lives etc......are we really willing to do that to others to "be safe" so "one" can live? I know where I fall with that but as we work through terrifying times for some we all must consider "country", "others" before "self" IMO. I'm sure YMMV as well as others. And trust me, I'm not a believer in the "collective" mindset.

[notanlines]

At risk of delving into the political side of this, the quote "Nothing is more important than living" is blatantly offensive, not to mention incorrect, to the many, many patriots and veterans of this forum.
Evelyn Beatrice Hall said it best in writing of Voltaire: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"

[McRod]

Originally Posted by sourdough

I'm sure I know where you are coming from but just taking the view that "nothing" is more important than living sort of gives me pause (just taking that statement). Lots of things, depending on the person, are more important than one's self. The collapse of the country, destruction of others lives etc......are we really willing to do that to others to "be safe" so "one" can live? I know where I fall with that but as we work through terrifying times for some we all must consider "country", "others" before "self" IMO. I'm sure YMMV as well as others. And trust me, I'm not a believer in the "collective" mindset.

It's odd that you would conclude with disassociating yourself from the collective mindset, but frame your statement as considerate for the "country" and "others" collective mindset.

If people would worry about themselves and how their own actions impact others, rather than worrying about others without regard to their own actions, the world would be a better place.

Most I find touting that "others" are selfish and inconsiderate are the ones that worry they might miss out on something and fail to realize the impacts if their own actions.

I am sure there is some wise saying that would sum that up better. My 80 y/o mom would just say, "Mind ya own bidness!" Or "Judge not, lest ye be judged!"

[McRod]

Originally Posted by notanlines

"At risk of delving into the political side of this, the quote "Nothing is more important than living" is blatantly offensive, not to mention incorrect, to the many, many patriots and veterans of this forum."

Exactly. For some reason we think it's ok to tell others how to live their lives, in order to, mask the realities of how we live our own lives. Sadly, many will easily forego rights for "the greater good". We are not a utilitarianistic society.

[gearhead]

Originally Posted by wiredgeorge

HEB stores within driving distance are about two weeks out for pickup grocery service. Walmarts schedule same day and next day and all are full of appointments already. Think we will need to go into one of these places eventually. We have been shopping at the local Family Dollar which has pretty good stocks and produce, milk, etc. We do buy stuff we can only get at one of the big box groceries so a trip now and again will be necessary. My wife won't let me go as I have one of those additional health situations that make it dangerous while she does not and she is more careful than me anyway.

My wife is the one with underlying health issues, so she does the on line/pickup grocery runs. Our nearest HEB is about 30 minutes away in Mont Belvieu, I usually drive her to that. We are about 10 days out between order and pickup. I made my daily trek to WalMart this morning. I needed a new deep cycle battery for my jon boat. Bay boat is sitting in the garage ready to go. The jon boat is out in my "junkyard" ready. Son says he needs to go fishing. Dad does too!

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by McRod

It's odd that you would conclude with disassociating yourself from the collective mindset, but frame your statement as considerate for the "country" and "others" collective mindset.

If people would worry about themselves and how their own actions impact others, rather than worrying about others without regard to their own actions, the world would be a better place.

Most I find touting that "others" are selfish and inconsiderate are the ones that worry they might miss out on something and fail to realize the impacts if their own actions.

I am sure there is some wise saying that would sum that up better. My 80 y/o mom would just say, "Mind ya own bidness!" Or "Judge not, lest ye be judged!"

Wow! You sure can read a lot into something that's not there.

As I said, I an not of the collective mindset, BUT, there ARE things more important than one's own self (family, country, freedom come to mind) - or there should be.

The topic is Covid 19 and the statement was "nothing is more important than living" and I tried to state that. Not sure how you interpret selfishness, judging and worrying about others' actions from what I said.

I will clarify further; if this virus affects 10% of the population (highly doubtful: 10% = approx. 33M cases, current = 454k) and IF the death rate was 10%: 33M x .10 = 3.3 deaths (no one believes the death rate will be anywhere near that) then we are looking at 1% of the population whose life was ended (or "ruined"). In contrast, if one takes the mindset that "nothing is more important than living" (speaking in the singular), that's when some will take ill advised, extreme measures (destroy jobs/economy) to protect the "one" (the 1%) at the expense of the others (99%). Collective thinking? I think not. More like common sense to me. The President made a good observation; the cure should not be worse than the disease and that is a hard line to draw.

[Camp CA]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

............The ONLY way to get a "true mortality rate" is to test everyone and divide the resulting positives by the number of deaths... Until we have "accurate infection rates" we will never have accurate mortality rates......They have now realized that many of those patients actually died from "co-morbidity related illness" not from COVID-19. They are going back to readdress the actual cause of death and changing the records to reflect WHY the patient died, not that they died while infected with COVID-19.......

Ditto........that is one of the elements of science we need ASAP. Would like to see a county-wide testing task force initiative.

[McRod]

Originally Posted by sourdough

Wow! You sure can read a lot into something that's not there.

Your right, I did read more into it than was there. Your point was not clear to me in the original post I quoted (it seemed contradictory to me). However, here in your second clarifying post, it is clear. And I agree with you.

Today, it's common for people to frame their words in a positive light or cast a negative light on others in order to mask the truth. I hope you can see my confusion.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

At this day in time, ALL the data is "skewed by limitations"...

What I mean by that is: The only way you can get a positive result is testing. So, as the number of positives goes up, the percentage of deaths goes down.

If any "worldwide" figures are used to determine "mortality", all the countries that have not even started "public generalized testing" but are reporting COVID-19 deaths by confirming corpse infection are reporting 100% mortality, skewing the "worldwide mortality"...

Even in our own country, New York is testing as many people as possible, increasing the "positive cases". That decreases the mortality rate by having more cases to divide by the number of deaths.

If Michigan restricts testing to "physician ordered testing" then only those with symptoms will be tested. That makes the "positive cases skew downward", so there's a smaller number to divide into, increasing the mortality rate....

As CDC said last week, we tested more patients in 8 days than South Korea tested in 8 weeks.... That "skews the mortality rate", making it lower in the US than in other countries....

The ONLY way to get a "true mortality rate" is to test everyone and divide the resulting positives by the number of deaths... Until we have "accurate infection rates" we will never have accurate mortality rates...

Then, as in the reports from Italy. 100% of infected patients were initially reported as "death by COVID-19". They have now realized that many of those patients actually died from "co-morbidity related illness" not from COVID-19. They are going back to readdress the actual cause of death and changing the records to reflect WHY the patient died, not that they died while infected with COVID-19.

As an example, someone with terminal cancer, expected to live less than a week, tests positive for COVID-19. They die 10 days later. The death is not "caused by COVID-19" …. Those type of deaths should not be "COVID-19 mortality".

We have a LOT (really too much) non-standardized reporting from around the world and even in our own country. Until we can find a way to make all the reporting mean the same thing, we're going to have significant disparity in mortality rates, not because of the virus, but because of the way we calculate the data.

ADDED: There is current testing "finally starting" to test for antibodies. That will determine past exposure to the virus. Once we get that data, we can start studies to determine "length of immunity/antibody effectiveness"... After we get to that point, we can then start comparing "viral mutation to immune response" to get a "best guess" on how long and how much immunity people have. All of that will be most important in developing a vaccine, not in "winging it through the next flu season, hoping COVID-19 doesn't mutate.

I'm afraid the picture is still going to stay muddy for the foreseeable future and the stats pertaining to Covid 19 skewed. The deceased gentleman I referred to in an earlier post had several underlying issues resulting in his being in the hospital. He was later diagnosed with Covid 19. By all accounts his death was due to the underlying issues (lungs/heart) not the virus. Newspaper article came out yesterday; cause of death? Covid 19.

We can look at the numbers but unfortunately, to me, they are terribly inaccurate and being twisted and manipulated by the media to stir up a frenzy in not only the population but our government agencies. Hopefully someone gets a handle on it, gets the proper testing equipment distributed and standardized reporting implemented so we can determine exactly what's going on. In the meantime, I've been digging thru the barn looking for my old box of Lionel train parts, which I last saw probably 50 years ago, so I can put it together and watch it go "round and round" while killing time...… I think that's going to beat my daily routine of going to the closet and counting toilet paper rolls ….

[McRod]

Originally Posted by Camp CA

Ditto........that is one of the elements of science we need ASAP. Would like to see a county-wide testing task force initiative.

Not me. It's an unnecessary financial burden and unrealistic expectation. We already know that 90+% of people that "had symptoms" didn't have COVID19. What, statistically speaking, would make anyone think that percentage would get worse by testing those with "no symptoms"?

[McRod]

Originally Posted by flybouy

I equate how some are treating this with the "no danger here because there just aren't that many people here" to someone standing out in the sunshine in Oklahoma or Kansas wondering why the air raid sirens are blowing. After all, it's nice and sunny here.....

Most people will not be directly impacted by COVID19. Indirectly, sure. Not point in the sirens going off in OK or KS when the tornado is in NY. Now you see why they have that dumb look on their face?