Another soft bullet floor

[JRTJH]

I'm going to go "way out on a limb" here and make some comments that I can't "prove to be fact" but rather, "are based on previous experience"....

Those who are old enough will remember when "plastic dash panels" first replaced steel dash panels in cars (around the mid 60's). How many of us remember those soft dash tops that cracked "almost as soon as the warranty expired" ???? If you look at any auto parts internet site, you can still buy "fuzzy dash blankets" to cover those dash panels to "prevent the sun from damaging them".... Since, the industry "improved the plastic formula" and cracking is less a problem in today's cars....

Now, let's move to the "mid 70's/early 80's" when "all cars could be ordered with an optional "vinyl top"... It really did nothing for the car's function, it was "just for eye appeal"... GM called it the "Landau package" and all the other manufacturers had their "pet names for that upgrade".... Again, the vinyl lasted "almost as long as the warranty".... Most of us that owned a car with a vinyl top still have a bottle of "some kind of junk" that we applied to try to keep it from cracking and disintegrating.... That's where Armor-All got its start BTW....

Now, apply this "try new stuff, find out it has problems, refine the process, evolve to different techniques and STOP USING THE FIRST EMULATION".....

I think (look back at the first sentence in this post) that the RV industry, in their "zeal to deliver what we want" started using DARCO.

This is the way I remember the evolution:

1. Wheelwells were lined with zinc coated steel sheets (tin)
2. That changed to spray on tar/bed liner
3. That changed to a plastic liner (similar to a truck bed liner)
4. That changed to an aluminum underbelly pan with aluminum wheelwell liners.
5. That changed to plastic sheeting (similar to a thick painter's drop cloth) stapled to the bottom of the trailer
6. That changed to DACOR underliner and is still used on some entry level trailers and in most wheelwells.
7. That changed to COROPLAST underliner and DACOR wheelwell liners...

At the same time, the flooring that used to be 1" marine plywood changed to 7/8" plywood, changed to 5/8" OSB/strand changed to "sandwich" flooring that was first 1/2" top layer of strand, 2"foam and 1/4" bottom strand, that is now either 1/4" top layer (or 2 layers of 1/8" luan), 1.5" foam and a 1/8" bottom layer, wrapped with DARCO to prevent water from rotting the structure....

Tow the "new and improved" floor over a gravel road and it doesn't take long to "fill the DARCO with pin-prick holes that will "wick water" the next time you tow during the rain.....

I see our future having more "evolution" and I'd suspect that as the industry gains "knowledge and experience" with current technology failures, we'll see different materials and different techniques as "trailer manufacturing evolves".... We can see that in the roof material too. First was a "tin roof" followed by a fiberglass or aluminum roof, followed by EPDM and now TPO (lighter than EPDM with the same characteristics)....

We ain't at the end of the line, but just like those plastic dashes and vinyl roofs, you don't see them on today's cars and I'd suspect you won't find DARCO wheelwells on "tomorrow's RV".....

In the meantime, buyers have a choice. Delay purchasing an RV "until they're perfect" or buy one today, deal with the growing pains and make memories (which are going to include costs to repair and replace things that break)...

Again, just my thoughts for what they're worth......

[Fergie]

I have a 33ft. Passport ultra lite and it is definitely the flimsiest light weight I have ever owned. Roof and floor very soft. When you compare cost to other manufacturers, you would think Keystone would do a better job?

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Fergie

I have a 33ft. Passport ultra lite and it is definitely the flimsiest light weight I have ever owned. Roof and floor very soft. When you compare cost to other manufacturers, you would think Keystone would do a better job?

I'm not defending Keystone, heaven knows they build some "junk", but most are "industry competitive trailers at industry competitive prices".

When you compare a 5 year old trailer to a current model, there is a "flimsy feel" that goes along with that 600+ pound weight reduction off the older model. Current trailers do "feel lighter" than older trailers. That's because they are lighter.

All the "ultra-lite" trailers that I've walked inside of for the past 3 or 4 years seem to be "about the same in design and material use". I haven't walked into any brand 30'+ ultra-lite trailer that didn't feel "flimsy and bend in the middle or at both ends"....

I haven't seen that Keystone is much different than GD, Jayco, Winnebago, Forest River or any others. About the only difference that I see between any of the manufacturers is that they all "put the lipstick on the pig in different places"... Otherwise, they're all "the same pig underneath".... All are built with the same Lippert or NOCO frame, same tires (Jayco used all Endurance for 2 years, new models have some "different brands") all use the same appliances, same brand luan wallboard, some TPO roofing, same staples and adhesive, same workers (they move from plant to plant as they get laid off, fired or angry) and the same "cost constraints/engineering criteria/time to build model"

Comparing cost, GD is about $5K more, FR, Jayco about the same price, Winnebago is closer to GD than to Keystone in price structure... Keystone is among the cheapest in each "class offered".

Whether one brand is a "better value" than another brand???? Well, beauty lies in the eye of the beholder...

[danf]

Originally Posted by FishTx

Is this a common problem with bullet series? I\u2019ve got a 2018 bullet premier

It's common. Other makes/models might have the same problem, but it's a common problem with Bullets. They didn't use butyl tape or caulking in the screws that screw on the apron. The Darco doesn't protect the underside of the floor. The darco also develops holes over the trailer frame where it is pinched between the frame and the trailer floor. There is no caulking there to keep dirt and water out. I would assume that Bullets in Arizona and places where it doesn't rain much may never see the problem. If you don't tow in rain, you may get away with not seeing the problem as long as you own your Bullet. But, I'd put money on almost all Bullets in wet places and towed in rain having bad floors or at least the start of developing a bad floor.

Knowing what I know now, if a new bullet dropped in my lap, I would caulk the apron and threshold screws. I would caulk underneath along where the floor is in contact with the frame rail. I would coat the bottom of the floor all along the wheel well area from the front of the camper to the rear of the camper with bed liner, undercoat, or similar. And then I would build inner wheel wells to keep spray of the floor.

[08quadram]

Heard from my dealer today. I said keystone told them they didn't need to do any more work on it ( I'm assuming investigations). They would take it from here. Who knows, hopefully I won't have to pressure too much for a replacement unit.

[danf]

Originally Posted by 08quadram

Heard from my dealer today. I said keystone told them they didn't need to do any more work on it ( I'm assuming investigations). They would take it from here. Who knows, hopefully I won't have to pressure too much for a replacement unit.

Any news? Did they haul it off to the factory?

[08quadram]

Based on my last conversation with Keystone, it will be replaced with a new unit.

[skids]

Originally Posted by 08quadram

Based on my last conversation with Keystone, it will be replaced with a new unit.

It will be interesting to know if you end up with the same exact design or if it is provided with more fender well protection.

[08quadram]

It should be the new 291RLS. I haven't heard anything for 3 weeks now other than our intial phone converstation.

[Mcshoe]

I am in the market for a bullet 210 rudwe..Where in the trailer should I be looking for soft spots. Thanks

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Mcshoe

I am in the market for a bullet 210 rudwe..Where in the trailer should I be looking for soft spots. Thanks

You probably won't find "soft spots" in a new trailer, either from water intrusion or from construction issues. Typically, it takes a year or more for most water damage to "become visible on the surface" until then, you probably won't see any indications of damage....

As for "construction soft spots", typically the main ones seen are the floor directly above any heat ducts molded into the "sandwich floor construction" and/or "wobbly kitchen island attachments" or similar types of "weakness"...

As with any construction material, as it's used it becomes worn and loses some of its rigidity/strength. When it comes to the floor over the heat ducting, it will "seem strong enough" when new, and as the trailer is used, walking on that area will flex the wood, potentially break down the underlying Styrofoam and after that happens, you'll start to notice the floor flex above that area. It's not a "reliability issue" as much as a "construction inadequacy". Will it break when you step on it? Probably not. Will it break if you "stomp on it"?? Probably...

The kitchen island, if you push against it repeatedly, if kids "run rough-shod around it, using it to make faster corners, expect it to loosen from the floor attachments or pull them out, causing a "perceived weakness"...

Another "typical weakness" is kids jumping from the top bunk onto the floor. It really doesn't take much weight, 40-50 pounds from 4' up, jumping onto the floor in the same spot, even with kids size 1 shoes, will weaken the adhesive between the plies in the luan panels or weaken the OSB wafers from their adhesive. That's not a Keystone problem, but an issue related to "ultra-light construction materials" that's found in every RV that uses that construction technique.

I'd suggest that you shouldn't be "afraid of buying a Keystone" if those are your concerns, you'll find that nearly every RV constructed by any manufacturer that's in the same class and the same weight category will very likely be built almost "exactly" the same way.

[Mcshoe]

What about soft spots in a new 2018 that’s been setting in a dealers yard in the mid west.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Mcshoe

What about soft spots in a new 2018 that’s been setting in a dealers yard in the mid west.

Generally speaking, if it's been sitting on a dealer's lot, chances are it hasn't been towed, lived in, walked in or exposed to condensation that is found in "trailers that are in use", so it should be "in new condition except for the tens, hundreds, thousands of people walking through it. Then of course, it could have been towed several thousand miles to RV shows, inside one weekend, outside in the slush with people tracking ice and water into it the next weekend. It may have even been a "parts donor trailer" having parts "robbed" to fix other trailers, then put back together, only to have something else taken off and replaced when the parts came in later. It's hard to know what any trailer has been exposed to, so if you are wanting specifics about a particular trailer? Nobody will be able to tell you what you'll find unless they have personal knowledge about that specific trailer.

I'd suspect that if it's a 2018 that's never been titled or owned, then I'd consider it much the same as any 2018 "used" trailer with the exception that it'll come with a 12 month Keystone warranty which other "truly used" RV's won't have.... Otherwise, who knows what it's been subjected to while "sitting" on the dealer's lot. I'm not suggesting it's a good trailer or a bad trailer, I'm suggesting that if it's been sitting on a dealership lot for 2 or 3 years, who knows what condition it might be in. I've seen units that sat on a lot for 3 months and were "new, untitled junk" that has been trashed by vandalism and I've seen "new units that sat on a dealership lot for 3 years and were as good as the day they left the factory".... It's impossible to say what problems that specific trailer may or may not have.

[08quadram]

Originally Posted by Mcshoe

I am in the market for a bullet 210 rudwe..Where in the trailer should I be looking for soft spots. Thanks

Mine was 4 months old. I am quite sure based on the many places that the water entered, it was already rotting sitting on the lot. It had nothing to do with pulling it down the road.....and I ever only pulled it in the rain once, the day I brought it home.

The slam latch design and the fact that they didn't use butyl tape behind the shirt trim screws. Design flaw there. Otherwise mine had installation of window and door issue.

In my case Keystone has stepped up, rectified the issue and I will be a happy camper.

[skids]

John, We bought our 2019 Bullet 248rks from Camping World in Colorado Springs in November. I towed it home and looked on the roof for conditions of sealant lines, etc. It was obvious to me that there was a couple of fresher Dicor calk lines on the roof. There were some spots that were whiter. At first, I was thinking that maybe I bought a trailer that was returned, but then I was thinking that maybe Camping World did an inspection early 2019 (if the trailer was produced at the end of 2018 as a 2019) and took care of a couple of problems. Truely I am OK with that!

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by skids

John, We bought our 2019 Bullet 248rks from Camping World in Colorado Springs in November. I towed it home and looked on the roof for conditions of sealant lines, etc. It was obvious to me that there was a couple of fresher Dicor calk lines on the roof. There were some spots that were whiter. At first, I was thinking that maybe I bought a trailer that was returned, but then I was thinking that maybe Camping World did an inspection early 2019 (if the trailer was produced at the end of 2018 as a 2019) and took care of a couple of problems. Truely I am OK with that!

This is my opinion, obviously I can't speak for any dealership, anywhere, not even the one I use which is about 40 miles away....

Anyway, IMHO, any dealer "should" be proactive and do the maintenance requirements that are in the Owner's Manual and required by anyone "owning" a Keystone trailer. That means "quarterly or so" getting on the roof, checking the sealant, doing a once over of the exterior: windows, doors, hatch covers, molding, screw strip cover, light assemblies and other attachments for sealant voids and signs of problems.

Do dealers accomplish what the factory tells us that we've got to do on a regular basis???? My guess is the answer is "NO" … At most dealerships, I'd suspect the trailers get delivered from the factory and the first time they see any maintenance (other than the cleaning lady) is when they're sold to a buyer and the service department does the PDI....

It sounds like your dealership is an exception to the "no maintenance until sold" rule..... Good for them !!!

[Gegrad]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Do dealers accomplish what the factory tells us that we've got to do on a regular basis???? My guess is the answer is "NO" … At most dealerships, I'd suspect the trailers get delivered from the factory and the first time they see any maintenance (other than the cleaning lady) is when they're sold to a buyer and the service department does the PDI....

I am going to suggest you can count on 2-3 hands the sum total of dealers in the whole US (excluding maybe the sells of the super high end models like Lance, Arctic Fox, Airstream, etc) who do any maintenance of any kind to their lot trailers before PDI.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Gegrad

I am going to suggest you can count on 2-3 hands the sum total of dealers in the whole US (excluding maybe the sells of the super high end models like Lance, Arctic Fox, Airstream, etc) who do any maintenance of any kind to their lot trailers before PDI.

My guess is with one hand behind your back, you'd still have left over fingers....

[6.2 Superduty]

Today I received a call from Keystone my 2018 Bullet 269rls is going back to the factory for a wet floor. My dealer sent two back a few weeks ago. My evaluation of the damage is in two weeks. I understand they now have a floor replacement facility at the plant. Many have posted they have been told the process takes eight to ten weeks once they start. I have not heard of anyone e getting their trailer back from the factory

[JRTJH]

6.2 superduty,

Is your trailer going back to the factory in Goshen or in Oregon? There have been several members state their trailers have been sent to the plant in Oregon, many more than I've read about going to Goshen. It seems that in the past, returning a trailer to Goshen was an "almost unheard of event." Maybe that's changing ??? I'm surprised and very pleased to see Keystone "stepping up the repairs" and dedicating a facility to "floor repair". It sure sounds like there's a much bigger issue than is being reported on this forum, if they're dedicating an entire workforce just for floors.

I've long been concerned that the "sandwiched floor" is not durable enough for travel trailer use. Maybe that's becoming a realization at Keystone as well. I'm sure there will be lots and LOTS more to evolve from this kind of situation. It's good to see Keystone actively working toward repairing owners trailers.