Lithium charging not great

[JRTJH]

Danny,

I agree with your post... That said, I still have not been able to nail down Keystone as to which WFCO converter they install with each "SolarFlex system"...

What I mean by that is this:

The SolarFlex 200 is "configured for lead acid batteries" and the factory does not install any batteries. It's up to the dealership to install what they carry. Some of us get a single Gp 24 hybrid. Some get two Gp 27's and others might even get a "remanufactured no name battery".... It's my understanding (and Keystone won't confirm or deny) that all SolarFlex 200 systems are equipped with a WFCO "lead acid only" converter/charger.

Then, moving to the SolarFlex 400i, there are still NO batteries from the factory as standard equipment, but you can order it with either 1 or 2 Dragonfly batteries. Also, you can upgrade that system if you special order it, with additional rooftop panels, a second inverter and a "inverter friendly air conditioner"... That said, Keystone has not confirmed whether "ALL" of the 400i systems ship with a Li compatible converter/charger or if only those that have the special order Li batteries as part of the order come equipped with the correct charger. And, if not ordered with Li batteries, it's going to be equipped with what the dealer puts in all their other trailers (probably a single Gp 24)...

Then there's the 600i system that does come with a 270 AH Dragonfly battery, but the cost of that system makes it restrictive for all but the most expensive Keystone trailers... I don't know of very many "Keystone entry level or mid level buyers" that would be willing to up the price by roughly $12,000 for the 600i system.... As far as I know, since the Li battery is standard with the package, I'd suspect that the converter/charger is properly equipped to charge the battery the factory installs....

That said, if the dealership is installing batteries, I'd suspect that Keystone would not spend the extra money for a Li specific charger knowing that most people wouldn't install Li batteries "at the dealership" but would just learn from their mistakes, that a single Gp 24 "provided by the dealer" simply is not enough battery for their trailer.....

All that said, looking at the SolarFlex 400i battery option, it states, "Factory installation & system prep"... I wonder if the "system prep" is the changeout of the converter/charger to one that supports Li charging ??????

[NH_Bulldog]

To the OP; Just out of curiosity did you review the setup instructions in the SolarFlex document? I found it to be an interesting read and can see where the dealer could have made some errors in setup. The document is too big to post but the link is here:

https://keystone-rv-dealer-app.cdn.prismic.io/keystone-rv-dealer-app/52221155-da2f-4f60-b054-1dfb3dbdc5ce_KRV_SolaFlexDF_QSG_WEB.pdf

[Camperklahowya]

It came with a dragonfly lithium battery, I added the second at the dealer.
The dealer should have installed the proper converter at the time of of purchase.
I have no issue if they admit the mistake and fix it.

[Camperklahowya]

Originally Posted by NH_Bulldog

To the OP; Just out of curiosity did you review the setup instructions in the SolarFlex document? I found it to be an interesting read and can see where the dealer could have made some errors in setup. The document is too big to post but the link is here:

https://keystone-rv-dealer-app.cdn.p...DF_QSG_WEB.pdf

Yep, I looked at that. Mistakes happen and I think the lithium was a promo deal. Hopefully they fix this converter issue when I bring it in for the 1 year warranty.

[jasin1]

Originally Posted by Camperklahowya

Yep, I looked at that. Mistakes happen and I think the lithium was a promo deal. Hopefully they fix this converter issue when I bring it in for the 1 year warranty.

i’d take it back before the one year warranty and get something in writing..i think once the 1 year warranty passes…even by a day or a week they might deny any responsibility because they weren’t notified within the first year…could be wrong but Keystone seems to stick to the exact wording of the warranty

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Danny,

I agree with your post... That said, I still have not been able to nail down Keystone as to which WFCO converter they install with each "SolarFlex system"...

What I mean by that is this:

The SolarFlex 200 is "configured for lead acid batteries" and the factory does not install any batteries. It's up to the dealership to install what they carry. Some of us get a single Gp 24 hybrid. Some get two Gp 27's and others might even get a "remanufactured no name battery".... It's my understanding (and Keystone won't confirm or deny) that all SolarFlex 200 systems are equipped with a WFCO "lead acid only" converter/charger.

Then, moving to the SolarFlex 400i, there are still NO batteries from the factory as standard equipment, but you can order it with either 1 or 2 Dragonfly batteries. Also, you can upgrade that system if you special order it, with additional rooftop panels, a second inverter and a "inverter friendly air conditioner"... That said, Keystone has not confirmed whether "ALL" of the 400i systems ship with a Li compatible converter/charger or if only those that have the special order Li batteries as part of the order come equipped with the correct charger. And, if not ordered with Li batteries, it's going to be equipped with what the dealer puts in all their other trailers (probably a single Gp 24)...

Then there's the 600i system that does come with a 270 AH Dragonfly battery, but the cost of that system makes it restrictive for all but the most expensive Keystone trailers... I don't know of very many "Keystone entry level or mid level buyers" that would be willing to up the price by roughly $12,000 for the 600i system.... As far as I know, since the Li battery is standard with the package, I'd suspect that the converter/charger is properly equipped to charge the battery the factory installs....

That said, if the dealership is installing batteries, I'd suspect that Keystone would not spend the extra money for a Li specific charger knowing that most people wouldn't install Li batteries "at the dealership" but would just learn from their mistakes, that a single Gp 24 "provided by the dealer" simply is not enough battery for their trailer.....

All that said, looking at the SolarFlex 400i battery option, it states, "Factory installation & system prep"... I wonder if the "system prep" is the changeout of the converter/charger to one that supports Li charging ??????

Good questions and some that I have. The bigger question is how all this came to be? Installed as an option from the factory? Ordered as add ons? If I'm buying a solar package they are going to be visiting with me for quite a while as we go through the ins and outs of the package. Lots of questions from the gitgo.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by sourdough

Good questions and some that I have. The bigger question is how all this came to be? Installed as an option from the factory? Ordered as add ons? If I'm buying a solar package they are going to be visiting with me for quite a while as we go through the ins and outs of the package. Lots of questions from the gitgo.

Yep, You and I have been around these things long enough to know that if it isn't in writing, it won't be honored later on... That said, we would get everything "out in the open and fully understood" before signing the first piece of paper...

But, the "noobie with no experience" is going to think, "OK, you're going to give me a better battery, and it's FREE??? Heck yeah, I'm all for something that's better and free to boot" Then, after getting the trailer home, that noobie finds out the battery was free, but it isn't compatible with the converter/charger that's in the trailer

Another case of "You don't know what you don't know" ......

[Camperklahowya]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Another case of "You don't know what you don't know" ......

Exactly! It was our second trailer. It was a Keystone promo, free lithium battery. I added a second. If this was by design, at best it's disingenuous and simply takes advantage of their customers. I'll give the dealer a chance to make it right.

[NH_Bulldog]

Keystone does offer Dragonfly lithium batteries as a factory installed option. One would hope that if you went that route, that they would make all the individual components compatible with each other. If not selected as a factory install, they have no idea what the end user is going to install for batteries, so it leaves the factory in a generic setup and the dealer or end user has to take the necessary steps to “tune” the system to what battery they install.

“Dragonfly Energy's legendary heated Lithium-ion batteries can now be added as factory-installed equipment, exclusively on any Keystone RV. Includes a 10-year warranty, dedicated technical support number, and an end-of-life return and recycling program”

List price is $2,700 for two 100ah batteries so I can see where a “free” dealer upgrade offer is attractive, but it appears you might get what you pay for. At the very least, this is a valuable conversation for others to gain experience from.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by Camperklahowya

Exactly! It was our second trailer. It was a Keystone promo, free lithium battery. I added a second. If this was by design, at best it's disingenuous and simply takes advantage of their customers. I'll give the dealer a chance to make it right.

If I have pieced this together correctly I believe your issue is going to be with the dealer. In your first post you said the "dealer" installed 2 Dragonfly batteries. You later said they installed one and you had them add a 2nd. Keystone specifically states that the lithium Dragonfly batteries are a "factory" installed option, not dealer. They have to be ordered with the trailer and Keystone then builds it for them. I suspect any equipment mismatch is due to the dealer installing the lithium battery, for whatever reason, and the associated equipment was not made for it. If you read through everything included in the SolarFlex 200 lithium batteries as an option is not there, it is a standalone option available only through factory order.

If that is the case the question then becomes why and how the dealer came to install the lithium battery(s). If of their own choice and they didn't know enough to check the associated equipment it's on them but the resolution might be to just put regular LA batteries back in if they don't have the technical expertise to build out the system. If they do hve the expertise they might upgrade the equipment - but I wouldn't get my hopes up. If they added the battery as a selling point and there was no upcharge I would not be surprised at all if they didn't just offer a new regular battery.

Hopefully this all works out simply and easily for the OP. It is a good example of what was mentioned; you don't know what you don't know....and why you need to try to know and understand what it is you're buying. It's difficult I know, and sounds sort of harsh, but RVs aren't like cars in most respects, BUT when it comes to mods, upgrades, etc. (thinking replacing cam, pistons etc. in an engine) you need to KNOW what you have and what you are doing; same applies here.

Good luck in getting this resolved. If the situation is as it appears I hope the dealer meets you half way in getting this taken care of. Please let us know the outcome as these kinds of situations are great learning experiences for those yet to come.

[JRTJH]

We still have not addressed "how to fix the current issue"...

Back in post #15, I placed two drawings of the WFCO DC power distribution panel and the WFCO Converter/Charger (with LA/Li switch). The OP still has not stated (or I missed it completely) whether HIS converter/charger has the stated switch.

If there is a LA/Li switch either on his DC distribution panel or "buried behind the power center on the back of the converter/charger" then all this is really a matter of just "flipping the switch to Li"....

On the other hand, if the WFCO power distribution panel does not support lithium charging profiles, then it's a matter of changing out the converter/charger to one that does support lithium charging profiles....

So, Camperklahowya, does your power distribution center have the LA/Li switch????

Without waiting for a response, if it does, then flip the switch to Li and your batteries will charge to 100% when on a generator or on shore power. If your power center does not have that switch (or it's not on the back of the converter/charger) then either you or your dealer will need to install the correct converter/charger to resolve the problem and to appropriately charge your lithium batteries to 100%.

You can contact WFCO Customer Support, either online at their website: https://wfcoelectronics.com/

Or you can fill out the "customer support request" found at the bottom of their website by clicking on the first + in the "contact us" link.

Or you can call them at: 574-294-8997 • Toll Free: 877-294-8997

To get "factory answers to what you have and what you need" you'll have to give them the WFCO Power Center model number, serial number and date of manufacture. That information is located on a tag on the equipment. You'll also need to know which converter/charger is installed "behind your electrical panel". It will also have a tag with model number/serial number/DOM.

Without knowing what you actually have in your trailer, it's impossible to determine whether your dealer did or did not change out the converter/charger or even if that was necessary (if all that's needed is to flip the LA/Li switch)....

So,"back to step #1": Have you looked for the switch on your power panel? Did you find it? Have you verified if it's set correctly (if it's present)?

[jasin1]

honestly i think at this point i’d ask the dealer to just order the new converter if yours definitely isn’t lithium compatible and tell them you will install it yourself if they pay for it..or just order on Amazon or an rv supply of they want to fight you on it …looks like it’s less then $250.

Yes technically it isn’t right that they didn’t verify your converter was compatible but they did give you a pretty expensive battery for free so you would still come out ahead imo

we are getting into spring time and the dealer service bay will be full for weeks trying to get newly sold units ready and warranty work i’d imagine. It’s personally not worth it to me to let my rv sit for weeks at a dealer while i tried to get a relatively simple repair done that is only worth $250 or less.

i’d save that “dealer card” for another issue that may pop up down the road that you need their support.

And you know to me if i give someone a free car i’d be mad if they demanded a full tank of gas because “how do you expect me to drive anywhere without gas?”

i think there is a learning curve for rv dealers who are just getting into solar and lithium and seems like the dealer was trying to give you a good perk and your gonna hold them to the fire to get everything associated with it…just my opinion

i’d meet them halfway

[JRTJH]

Plus, consider YOUR costs to tow the trailer to the dealership, your time, wear/tear on your tow vehicle, gas for the trip, not to mention the "lost time" while it sits on the dealer's lot, exposed to theft, damage from being hit or hitting something while they tow it to the service bay and back to wait for parts to come in, then tow it again when the parts come in....

Then you've also got the potential for your batteries to "disappear" or even if they're still there, to have been completely discharged if someone leaves a light on in the trailer while they were checking your current converter/charger...

PLUS: what's to say the same person who "missed the wrong converter last time won't be the same person who "is on a steep learning curve" in installing and setting up your new converter, possibly not completely doing the install correctly.........

Even if it's a "no brainer and the work gets done correctly" just your expenses and time added to the increased exposure for damage makes it a "do I really want to do this" kind of repair......

Free warranty repairs "AIN'T FREE" ..... Keystone even puts it in the warranty documents that they aren't responsible for any of your inconvenience or added cost for repairs....

[sourdough]

[QUOTE=JRTJH;530634]We still have not addressed "how to fix the current issue"...

Back in post #15, I placed two drawings of the WFCO DC power distribution panel and the WFCO Converter/Charger (with LA/Li switch). The OP still has not stated (or I missed it completely) whether HIS converter/charger has the stated switch.


I have not seen a definitive answer to this question either. It was posed and the OP later on said he thought the problem was the converter. I am/was "assuming" that would be the first thing checked before saying that or taking it back to the dealer.....but I've been wrong before.

[Camperklahowya]

The WFCO panel does not have a lithium compatible converter.
If the dealer meets me halfway that would be fine. Otherwise I’ll do it myself.

[colby]

Originally Posted by Camperklahowya

The WFCO panel does not have a lithium compatible converter.
If the dealer meets me halfway that would be fine. Otherwise I’ll do it myself.

Did you also check out the profile of the Victron converter? If that came from Keystone as part of he package, it may be set for SLA rather than Lithium. If the solar panels are working properly and the controller is configured for Lithium, you should be getting some higher voltage from the Victron to the batteries.

[Camperklahowya]

Originally Posted by colby

Did you also check out the profile of the Victron converter? If that came from Keystone as part of he package, it may be set for SLA rather than Lithium. If the solar panels are working properly and the controller is configured for Lithium, you should be getting some higher voltage from the Victron to the batteries.

It's configured properly and the little 200w system helps.

Update:
Scheduled my 1 year warranty service with dealer next month, mentioned the situation we'll see what happens.

Battleborn got back to me, what great customer service.
They said this should not happen and they were surprised that that WFCO model was installed on my trailer. They were going to contact Keystone and see what they could find out.
No matter what Keystone or the dealer do or don't do, BB said they would make this right and ship me a new converter.

I'm looking forward to have this system working properly.
thanks for all the help.

[Mike71954]

Did your Dealer change your converter in your trailer - from what I have read the original converters don't charge Lithium batteries well.

[firestation12]

Hopefully I’m not repeating something that has been covered in this thread. A few comments about lithium batteries may help to explain the observations the OP is having. Inside the case of a typical lithium is a BMS (battery monitoring system) that performs several functions. In no particular order are the following: monitor each of the 4 individual cells and stop charging input when the first cell reaches about 13.3, conversely stop battery output when the first cell reaches a predetermined target voltage, not allowing input of a charging voltage should the battery temperature fall below 32 degrees, regulate amperage ingress and amperage egress (this figure be as high as a ridiculous 250 amps). Each cell of a lithium battery typically Under goes a top balancing process during manufacture where basically each of the cells are put in a parallel chain and are charged at 3.3 volts (+/-) @ perhaps 10 amps for a period of 1-2 days. This process causes all the cells to reach the full charge cutoff and discharge cutout voltage when the BMS sees the first cell to reach the target figure. A fully charged battery voltage is roughly 13.3 volts after a brief post charging rest. A hallmark of lithium batteries is the voltage remains fairly flat throughout the discharge period, ability to rapidly charge (unlike lead acid). Several methods are acceptable to charge lithiums. For example, It’s ok to use a standard voltage converter then use a lithium type solar controller to top off the batteries to 100%. Lithium settings on solar controllers send usually 14.4 volts in bulk charging mode to the batteries. It’s ok to charge to say 90% with no harm. Regardless of whatever charging system is in play, the internal BMS get the final say on virtually every aspect of the battery’s operation. The OP’s 13.2-13.3V is likely a normally operating lithium battery.

[WDPatterson]

Originally Posted by Camperklahowya

When I installed the 13.6 batteries, next morning they were at 13.32 (no shore power)

on the victron app, there is zero load output.

Shore power at home 110/15amp plug.
here is the generator info, I run off propane.

Even when running off propane, all your igniters require 12 volts to operate. There are several systems within your travel trailer which will use some little bit of battery. Even when running on propane.