Factory Tour

[chartrand]

Doing the factory tour this Thursday, but have a few questions about the tour:
1. Are all the keystone trailers made in Goshen Indiana? I'm interested in the Bullet Premier and want to make sure I'm going to the right place.

2. What is the address, is it the mailing address from there web site: 2642 Hackberry Drive - Goshen, IN

3. Any tid bits of informatin I know before I go, or ask while I'm there, or thinks I should look for during the tour?

Thanks all,
Patrick

[Festus2]

Patrick -
Most, but not all Keystone RV's are made in the Indiana plant. Some are made in Pendleton, Oregon.

I would be interested in hearing what they have to say about "quality control". How many, and at what stages in the production, are quality control checks carried out?

[JRTJH]

Patrick,

Here's the tour info from the keystone website:

Tour times and availability may vary. Please contact Keystone Owner Relations at 866-425-4369 or [email protected] within five business days of the date you are considering to confirm the tour time and availability.

When you call, they can give you the directions on where the tour starts and what to expect.

They also will be able to tell you what brand name of RV they will be building the day of your tour and the plant you will be touring.

[chartrand]

I did the Factory Tour yesterday and it was most awesome. Any hesitation I had was quickly disolved when I was able to see each station and the quality work and materials these guys put into it. Now it's time to buy....

[chartrand]

Patrick -
Most, but not all Keystone RV's are made in the Indiana plant. Some are made in Pendleton, Oregon.

I would be interested in hearing what they have to say about "quality control". How many, and at what stages in the production, are quality control checks carried out?

Festus,
You asked about quality control. While on the tour I noticed red tape on a unit, yep the inspectors looked at it. I looked at the tape marks and most things my untrained eye could not even see what was wrong. But they have quality control inspectors all along the way, and the workers get written up for what the inspectors find.

It was interesting to see the line, and a unit at every station. By just walking down the line you could see a unit get completely built because there was a unit in every station. It started with an frame (not even an axle on it) and ended as a completed unit. It takes about 4 days to a single unit all the way through.

I was on the Bullet and Bullet Premier line, and I discovered something new that I did not know. I guess I assumed that the floors were made of maybe a marine grade plywood....NOPE.... they were made from a bonded and insulated floor that was made pretty much the same way the sides are made. this adds insulation, and gives the floor a much more solid feeling. I was delightfully surprised. Keystone surpassed my expectations, that's for sure.

-Pat

[ThePressureIsOn]

I also took the factory tour last year and was impressed by it and also noticed red tape on the trailers for things that needed to be repaired. It was very interesting to see production from the frame to finished product. It was good to go on the tour, after work for the day was finished, so that I could get up close to the trailer and not be in the way.

The is a Keystone dealer close to you, Barton Lake RV in Fremont IN., that I would recommend. It's probably less than 20 minutes from you. My wife and I felt like we received a fair deal there.

PM me if you have any questions.

[chartrand]

Funny, I'm already working with Barton Lake RV, And have a unit on order.

[tanman32225]

If quality control is so well maintained why do so many units come from the factory with subpar workmanship? Why do they come missing parts, loose screws, loose electrical and a host of other problems. I dont think the Manufactures have any idea what QC is or means. Anyone here will have a hard time convincing me otherwise. Maybe the inspectors are required to leave corrective lenses at home. Most RV's are built with money in mind not QC.

[Festus2]

Chartrand
Pat -
I am glad that you came away from your Keystone factory tour impressed with what you saw on the assembly line; and, in particular, the quality control that you witnessed at various production stages.

As you know, there are numerous members here who have experienced problems with holding tank drain pulls that have been incorrectly labelled. This issue, while not major, is not isolated and seems to be a fairly common occurence. It is the same problem taking place over and over again. How is this being missed so often?

Poor connections - and in some cases no connection -in ceiling and floor ductwork for both the A/C and furnace also seem to be a continuing cause of concern in many units as reported here by a number of members.

And just recently, we have heard about a roof recall on certain Bullet TT's whose front cap transistion molding has been improperly installed - "inadequate fasteners" being the culprit.

I am left to wonder what happened to the quality control that you saw first-hand during your tour?

It may be that Keystone has, as a result of customer complaints, improved their quality control in these examples I have pointed out as well as other issues that members have had.

Let's hope that Keystone is listening and paying attention to what some of their customers are saying about "quality control".

I am glad that your experience was a pleasant one and you came away with a positive impression.

[davidjsimons]

So far, so good for me and my 2013 Cougar 28RBS. I have not encountered the first issue as of yet. I realize that I've only had my unit for a very short time and only a limited amount of excursions, but one of the trips was over 2200 miles and all seems to be well. Perhaps my unit was built during the middle of the week, after the hangover subsided and before the hurry to leave for the weekend.


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[JRTJH]

Quality control aside, there is another facet of "quality" that needs to be considered. That is "customer acceptance" We all have a different concept of what is "OK" for us. I could look at a cabinet and be perfectly happy with how it looks, someone could come behind me and refuse to buy that RV until the same cabinet is "repaired" NO NO NO "REPLACED" because it is so bad..... What's the difference? It's how we view the "problem"

So, I guess what I'm saying is that some of us are much more critical of a problem and to those who are critical, it's an issue. That same "issue" may not even be noticed by a vast majority of owners who have the same "problem" and they never even realized it.

I know this may come across as being critical of "fussy people" but it's not intended to be at all. Rather I'm just trying to point out that we all see things through a different lens and what's significant to one person is just fine to another..... I think that makes "quality control" on my RV different than it is on your RV even though the same inspector did the same job on both of them.... Hope this makes some sense to you.....

[2011 keystone]

JRTJH. Thank you I wanted to say the same thing but could not figue out a way to type it without someone taking affence. I think you said it very well.

[davidjsimons]

Quality control aside, there is another facet of "quality" that needs to be considered. That is "customer acceptance" We all have a different concept of what is "OK" for us. I could look at a cabinet and be perfectly happy with how it looks, someone could come behind me and refuse to buy that RV until the same cabinet is "repaired" NO NO NO "REPLACED" because it is so bad..... What's the difference? It's how we view the "problem"

So, I guess what I'm saying is that some of us are much more critical of a problem and to those who are critical, it's an issue. That same "issue" may not even be noticed by a vast majority of owners who have the same "problem" and they never even realized it.

I know this may come across as being critical of "fussy people" but it's not intended to be at all. Rather I'm just trying to point out that we all see things through a different lens and what's significant to one person is just fine to another..... I think that makes "quality control" on my RV different than it is on your RV even though the same inspector did the same job on both of them.... Hope this makes some sense to you.....

My friends tell me that's why I drive a Dodge. I don't think they mean that as a compliment though. Lol!


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[labs4life]

I am relatively new here and just brought our sprinter 311 home. I had a couple minor issues fixed at the dealership. Once home, one corner right where the roof and the come together looked like sloppy sealant from the ground. Grabbed a ladder and that is exactly what it was. About 2" of the seam is sloppy and the very corner had a 3/4" crack. Guess what I did......I bought a tube of Dicor sealant and will fill the joint. No need to haul it back and have the dealership fix it. My time is more valuable than a $10 tube of sealant!!!!

[Ron]

If i was ever able to do a factory tour and since we own a Montana I would ask why are there so many Keytone 5vers having a frame flex issue, and have they done anything about it. The 2013 are models are still having this issue. Keystone started putting a larger main frame under the trailer but did nothing to beef up the Goose Neck area.

Yes our 2012 has a frame flex issue and started in the 7th week of ownership, kinda leaves a bad taste in your mouth about Keystone. It is currently at the dealership getting the frame fixed and about 7 other warranty issues repaired. Keystone did drop about 5 models recently is it because of engineering issues with these models or are they just not selling enough of them, or both?

[2011 keystone]

My guess would be that lippert is telling keystone oh yea we have the frames fixed now.
I work in a company where alot of our parts are made by a outside company so I see both sides of this. One other question is does anyone no if other brands of campers use lippert frames and if so are they having the same problems?

[Festus2]

JRTJH -
You are absolutely right when you say that what constitutes quality varies from person to person. What is acceptable to some is unacceptable to others. This applies not only to the customer and "customer acceptance" but also to how Keystone defines quality.

I am sure the corporate body at Keystone has defined quality and has set standards that it feels are acceptable and which must be met. Further on down the chain we most likely have those that are responsible for ensuring that these standards are met and yet further on we have the inspectors on the assembly line who actually do the inspections.

Keystone's standards of quality may not be acceptable to John Doe but yet meet with approval by Joe Smith.

In this entire structure, quality is truly in the eyes of the beholder and is very subjective. What one inspector may approve, another may reject.

In spite of the subjectivity of quality and quality control, I still find it hard to understand how incorrectly labelled drain pulls seems to have been missed time and time again by so many inspectors at quality control. Maybe these units all came out on the same day and the inspectors were having a bad day. In the big picture, mislabeled drain pulls is really not a huge problem and easily fixed.

As my wife reminds me now and again..."Don't sweat the small stuff".

[Ron]

My guess would be that lippert is telling keystone oh yea we have the frames fixed now.
I work in a company where alot of our parts are made by a outside company so I see both sides of this. One other question is does anyone no if other brands of campers use lippert frames and if so are they having the same problems?

I have done extensive research on this Frame Flex issue and yes there are alot of other manufacturers using the Lippert frame and yes they all are experiencing the same issue so how does a company stay in business. I just want to get it fixed and fixed properly and the repair Keystone has come up with is such a joke, just a patch job and not getting to the root of the problem. I have talked with Keytone about the so called Field Repair they are doing, as I do have a copy of how they are fixing this issue. I am not happy with the repairs but what can i do, just tow it down the road and see what happens, and if it happens again, and I'm sure it will, it will be going back for sure.

sorry for the rant but I have been so frustrated with this trailer especially how much you pay for these dang things......Love the floor plan and how comfortable it is for us.

[JRTJH]

davidjsimons, I owned a 72 Dodge PU. The week after I bought it, the steel headliner fell down on my head. I was PO'd and took it in for repair, when I tried to open the door to get out of the truck, the door handle fell off in my hand. I was more than PO'd.... the service manager laughed at me and asked me what I was doing to break his truck. That's why I drive Fords now..... but I do have to admit, the newer Dodge's are a lot better than the one I had...... Nowdays, I'd say it's pretty much a wash between the "big three" in whose truck is best. On any given topic, or on some specific issues, I'm sure each will come out on top, while on other issues, not so good. I try to be the last to say anything bad about anyone else's choice.

Festus2, Mislabled dump valves does seem insignificant, but if they keep getting mislabled, there's got to be an "issue" somewhere that isn't getting fixed. If something that small gets overlooked, I wonder what else is getting overlooked that isn't "the small stuff" ????? I remember when doing inspections on airplanes, if I was flying it, I looked a lot harder and more critically than if I was just checking it before it went to the hangar. I wonder what attitude the "dump valve inspectors" have ?????

Ron, You (all of us) deserve better. My guess is that Lippert, like Keystone, Forest River, Winnebago, and all the rest are feeling the crunch and trying to remain profitable at any cost. Where's the "fine line" between profit and danger???? I'm betting that Lippert found it with the frame flex issue...... Let's hope they can really figure it out rather than just throw a bandaid at it.

You're so right, with the cost of these things, we ought to get better value, but if you look from the other side of that fence, how many quality manufacturers of RV's have gone out of business in the past 5 years? I don't know how the ones that stay in business can turn a profit and the "good ones" couldn't (that is unless cutting corners is profit) ????

[davidjsimons]

JRTJH: My friends tell me that I am just willing to accept and work with too much is what I was saying. Man will never build anything with absolute perfection, he is with fault. I have found in life, it is easier to sometimes just fix something yourself and get it done. With that being said, if my new Cougar serves me as well and as reliable as my Dodge's have, I will be a loyal Keystone customer for many years to come.


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[JRTJH]

Seems to me that if you can make it through the first 6 months or year with an RV, it'll usually be OK for the duration. Most of the "big problems" seem to show up pretty quickly and usually that's within the warranty period. Now, whether it gets fixed or just covered up by repair work is something that's different with every service department.

As others have commented, we tend to "blame Keystone" for component failure when really, it's the component provider that has the problem. As with frames, we blame Keystone (and to an extent we should) when really it's Lippert that has the issue. Without defending Keystone, what are they to do? There are no other frame manufacturers who can deliver in the quantities that Keystone (really Thor) needs. They can "hold Lippert responsible" and push for improvement, but realistically, they either use what's available or stop production. If it's a safety issue, they should stop using the product, but if it's a cosmetic or functional issue, it would be "nice" if they protected us, but at the cost of going out of business? I don't know where to draw that line in the sand. Like David said, nothing's perfect..... would be nice if it were, but ain't happenin' so it seems.....

Like you, David, I tend to just fix things and move on. It's easier that way, less time for me, less hassle, and way less wonder if it was done right or not. Sometimes I wonder if by doing that, we might be giving the manufacturer's "bean counters" a false sense that all is good because there are no problems to track...... Hmmmmm, a double edged sword, I'm sure, but I'd still rather not have the time and expense of running back to the dealer every time a screw is loose just so Keystone's warranty department can track trends.....

[Pmedic4]

I've trading in a RV, that from all outward appearances is a quality unit with all the amenities, solid surface counters and tables, quality appliances, and extra features such as electric stabilizers jacks and tongue jack. However, during the first year, the lower siding skirt pulled away from the upper siding. Then the Dinette bench could not even hold a normal sized adult leaning back, the collapsible dining table wobbles, and the sofa is missing 1/2 the screws to bolt it down, and 1 is stripped out.

Overall, it appeared well made, but just the stupid stuff coming apart is frustrating!

I'm hoping my new Cougar is a better quality.