Alert for all California RV'ers

[Firecapt]

A word of warning to all California RV'ers:

About 6 months ago a friend of mine who, like me, has a 5er, was involved in an accident. The other driver was uninsured but my friend wasn’t concerned because he had uninsured motorist insurance as part of his policy.

His insurance company denied his claim because he was “not licensed to tow” his 5er. Indeed, he hadn’t gotten the proper endorsement on his California DL for towing a 5th wheel (see here: http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/dl648/dl648pt5.htm)

He was unaware of the law requiring this endorsement and had been towing his 5er all over the U.S. for years without it. I didn’t even think to ask him if he had this endorsement on his license... I had one on mine since I got my 5er.

As a result, he lost his 5er (it was totaled, and he wasn't reimbursed) and had to pay for all of the repairs to his TV (Ford F-350).

I checked this with DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles) and found the following:

In order to tow a trailer or fifth wheel up to 15,000 GVWR you need an endorsement on your license.

If you are towing a trailer or fifth wheel with a GVWR greater than 15,000 you need to get a non-commercial class A license.

If you are properly licensed in California to tow a 5th wheel, all other state have what is called “reciprocal agreements” regarding licensing and will honor California’s coverage.

So it seems that if you don’t have the proper license in California to tow your 5er, you are SOL if you get in an accident, whether it was your fault or not. Makes sense to get the endorsement or proper license.

Here’s a link to the handbook for the license test:

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/dl648/dl648.pdf

Hope this helps those of you that didn’t have this info.

[Clanton24v]

Wow that's just crazy

[Scottinvt]

Wow never heard of such a thing.

[Ruffus]

After 35 years in California and 20 years as a Deputy Sheriff there, I don't miss all the crap. An endorsement to tow a 5ver is just another way to raise money. Has the air around Los Angeles cleared up after 30 years of smog control on your vehicles, I think not.
Move East unless you can't live without that beautiful Pacific Coast, the blueist water in the world, and the smell of kelp is unique to that part of the world.
Okay I'm done, I still miss the camping there, nothing like it anywhere!
:cool3:

[Ron]

Wow, another crazy California law........Sorry about his 5ver, hope he will be able to pull out of that one and continue his travels..............Ron

[halfprice]

I just read all the links you posted and it looks like I'm ok to pull my 5th because it weighs less than 10,000.

From the DMV sit:


Recreational Trailer Endorsement


A driver must have a fifth-wheel recreational trailer endorsement added to his/her Class C driver license to pull a fifth-wheel recreational trailer over 10,000 lbs., but not over 15,000 lbs. GVWR, which is not used for hire. This endorsement is not required if the driver has a commercial or noncommercial Class A driver license.


My 5th is I believe around 7500lbs so I'm good to go.


Jerry

[mhs4771]

Just so you know, that type of requirements hits a lot of other states also. In New York State, if the combined weight of TV and Trailer or a MH is over 26000 Lbs it requires an "R" endorsement on your license (this now replaces the old Non-Commercial CDL), which by the way involves a Road Test with the unit in question and after the Road Test, you need someone else to drive your rig away as you're not licensed yet.

[Javi]

Texas has much the same law..

CLASSIFIED DRIVER LICENSE (Texas Transportation Code, Section 521)
The following listed Class A, B, C, and M licenses will be issued to persons
who are exempt from obtaining a Commercial Driver License or persons who
are not required to obtain a Commercial Driver License:

1. Class A driver license permits a person to drive any vehicle or combination
of vehicles with a gross combination weight rating of 26,001 pounds or
more, provided the gross vehicle weight rating of the vehicle(s) being towed
is in excess of 10,000 pounds; including a vehicle included in Class B or
Class C, except a motorcycle or moped.
Minimum Ages: 18, or 17 with completion of an approved driver education
course including classroom and practical training or approval of minor’s
hardship application.
Fee: $24.00 for 6 years. Applicants under the age of 18 are charged $5.00
for a license to expire on the next birthday.

2. Class B driver license permits a person to drive the following vehicles,
except a motorcycle or moped:
a. a single unit vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of 26,001
pounds or more, and any such vehicle towing either a vehicle with a
gross vehicle weight rating that does not exceed 10,000 pounds, or a
farm trailer with a gross vehicle weight rating that does not exceed
20,000 pounds;
b. a bus with a seating capacity of 24 passengers or more, including the
driver; and
c. a vehicle included in Class C.
Minimum Ages: 18, or 17 with completion of an approved driver education
course including classroom and practical training or approval of a minor’s
hardship application.
Fee: $24.00 for 6 years. Applicants under the age of 18 are charged $5.00
for a license to expire on the next birthday.

3. Class C driver license permits a person to drive the following vehicles,
except a motorcycle or moped:
1-4
a. a single unit vehicle, or combination of vehicles, that is not a Class A
or B; and
b. a single unit vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of less than
26,001 pounds, towing a trailer not to exceed 10,000 pounds gross vehicle
weight rating or a farm trailer with a gross vehicle weight rating that
does not exceed 20,000 pounds.

[smiller]

Just FWIW Texas's law is similar but not as stringent. In Texas you need a non-commercial Class A license if your combined GVWR is over 26,000 lbs. AND you are towing a trailer weighing more than 10,000 lbs. so while one of the heavier truck/5th combinations could trigger the requirement, most won't. In California you need the endorsement for any trailer over 10,000 pounds and this probably covers the majority of 5th wheels so I would think it affects many more owners. But then again the CA endorsement is free and looks pretty easy to get, or at least a lot easier than a Texas Class A.

Thanks to Firecapt for pointing this out, I had no idea the CA law existed.

[Javi]

Just FWIW Texas's law is similar but not as stringent. In Texas you need a non-commercial Class A license if your combined GVWR is over 26,000 lbs. AND you are towing a trailer weighing more than 10,000 lbs. so while one of the heavier truck/5th combinations could trigger the requirement, most won't. In California you need the endorsement for any trailer over 10,000 pounds and this probably covers the majority of 5th wheels so I would think it affects many more owners. But then again the CA endorsement is free and looks pretty easy to get, or at least a lot easier than a Texas Class A.

Thanks to Firecapt for pointing this out, I had no idea the CA law existed.

You might want to read that again.. unless I'm missing something if the trailer exceeds 10,000 GVWR you need a class A in Texas..

[smiller]

You might want to read that again.. unless I'm missing something if the trailer exceeds 10,000 GVWR you need a class A in Texas..
Yeah, that's how I read it at first as well. The confusion seems to be around what they call a 'single unit vehicle', but if you read the TX Driver's Handbook and/or research this on the web you'll see that what I said it correct. But admittedly it's rather confusing as written and easy to misunderstand, had me concerned for a while.

[Javi]

That was a direct cut and paste from the newest Texas drivers handbook

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[smiller]

I don't know what to tell you, research it some more. As I said, it is confusing. I would try to explain further but I don't want to do it on an iPhone :)

[SAD]

Oklahoma = "regardless of weight" in reference to GVWR for a regular class D (car) license. As long as its registered for, and it's primary use is recreational.

54,000 GVWR Prevost, here I come!

[smiller]

OK, to explain the Texas law (actually many states are the same in terms of classification as this follows Federal DOT regs) and why a Class A license is not needed unless the tow vehicle and trailer combination exceeds 26,000 lbs... as I mentioned the confusion is in the term "single unit vehicle" which doesn't necessarily mean how it sounds. Per DOT regs a 2-axle, 4-tire standard pickup truck towing an RV is technically considered a single unit vehicle and they are saying that this combination cannot be more than 26,000 lbs. The '10,000 lb.' part means that unless the trailer weighs more than 10,000 lbs. then it isn't included in the gross combination weight calculation, and that is the reason for the strange wording of the "provided the gross vehicle weight rating of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds" statement in the Texas statute. IOW, because my trailer has a GVWR of 12,000 lbs. I must add that to the GVWR of the tow vehicle when considering the 26,000 limitation. But if the two are still under 26,000 lbs. then I am not in Class A territory.

Another way of looking at it is if you were driving a Class A unit that weighed 20,000 lbs. then you could tow a trailer weighing 8,000 lbs. since the trailer doesn't count towards the 26,000 lb. limit because it is under 10,000 lbs. So even through the total weight of both is over 26,000 you are still legal.

Clear as mud? As I said, it's very confusing.


Note: For reference check this link for the definition of 'single unit vehicle':

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/hpmsmanl/chapt2.cfm

and then click on the 'Chapter III' link and look at vehicle code 3, to wit: "Other two-axle, four-tire single-unit vehicles pulling recreational or other light trailers are included in this classification."



Sorry for the hijack Firecapt!

[schwalbach]

In Wisconsin you are good to go with just a regular license, no special endorsements or CDL, but my feeling has always been, if you have a CDL, and you get in an accident and it is not your fault, they can not come at you and say, "well he obviously did not know what he was doing, he does not even hold a license to drive that heavy of a rig", with a CDL it is one less thing to come at you with and gives you a better defense if you need it. State says you can drive the rig!

Quote from Wisdot manual:

1.3 Wisconsin CDL
WHO IS EXEMPT FROM CDL
LICENSING IN WISCONSIN?
Federal law allows states the option to waive certain kinds of
drivers from the requirement to obtain a CDL. In Wisconsin,
the following drivers are not required to hold a CDL:
● Fire fighters and rescue squad members
are not required to hold a CDL to drive properly
equipped emergency or fire fighting vehicles.
● Recreational vehicle operators (owned or leased
motor home, fifth wheel mobile home or touring mobile
home, provided it isn’t longer than 45 feet) not engaged
in commercial activity are not required to hold a CDL.


this is the only weight or towing type classification in Wisconsin "CDL"

[hankaye]

smiller, Howdy;



<CUT> for brevity

Note: For reference check this link for the definition of 'single unit vehicle':

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/hpmsmanl/chapt2.cfm

and then click on the 'Chapter III' link and look at vehicle code 3, to wit: "Other two-axle, four-tire single-unit vehicles pulling recreational or other light trailers are included in this classification."
Sorry for the hijack Firecapt!

I followed you link then over to Chapter III.
The followingis a much more compleate reading for those not inclined to follow
links and take someone's word that they are posting the full statement.

"single unit vehicles" are defined by lines 5-7 NOT 3. You may also note the use of the term. " All vehicles on a single frame ... " My italics.

The following is from;

HPMS Field Manual

Chapter 3: Summary Data Requirements

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/hpmsmanl/chapt3.cfm

Yes, the whole Ch. 3. It's used to determine the classification of vehicles for
dividing them into units for determining usage of all of the roads in a State
per year. But it also determines what defines what each type is...

" In reporting information for the area wide Travel Activity by Vehicle Type Form, the following criteria should be followed:
•Single-Unit Trucks are described by vehicle type 5 – 7 as defined in the TMG, and exclude buses.(My highlight)
•Combination-Unit Trucks are described by vehicle type 8 – 13 as defined in the TMG.
•Truck-tractor units traveling without a trailer should be considered single-unit trucks.
•A truck-tractor unit pulling other such units in a "piggyback" (or "saddle-mount") configuration should be considered as one single-unit truck and be defined only by the axles on the pulling unit.
•Vehicles should be defined based on the number of axles in contact with the roadway. Therefore, "floating" axles are counted only when in the down position.
•The term "trailer" includes both semi- and full-trailers.
•Rural Other Arterial includes rural other principal and rural minor arterial functional systems.
•Other Rural includes major collector, rural minor collector, and rural local functional systems.
•Other Urban Arterial includes urban other freeways & expressways, urban other principal arterials, and urban minor arterials.
•Other Urban includes urban collector and urban local functional systems.

The States collect vehicle classification data annually at continuous permanent installations and portable sites. The site-specific classification and station description data should be sent with the truck Weigh In Motion data to the Office of Highway Policy Information (HPPI-30) using the FHWA data formats by June 15th of the year following the year for which the data are collected. Additional information about FHWA data formats is found in the TMG.

Vehicle Type Codes and Descriptions1

Code

Description

1

Motorcycles (Optional): All two- or three-wheeled motorized vehicles. Typical vehicles in this category have saddle type seats and are steered by handlebars rather than a wheel. This category includes motorcycles, motor scooters, mopeds, motor-powered bicycles, and three-wheeled motorcycles. This vehicle type may be reported at the option of the State, but should not be reported with any other vehicle type.

2

Passenger Cars: All sedans, coupes, and station wagons manufactured primarily for the purpose of carrying passengers and including those passenger cars pulling recreational or other light trailers. Vehicles registered as passenger cars that are pickups, panels, vans, etc. (described as vehicle type "3") should be reported as vehicle type "3".

3

Other Two-Axle, Four-Tire, Single-Unit Vehicles: All two-axle, four-tire vehicles, other than passenger cars. Included in this classification are pickups, panels, vans, and other vehicles such as campers, motor homes, ambulances, hearses, and carryalls. Other two-axle, four-tire single-unit vehicles pulling recreational or other light trailers are included in this classification.

4

Buses: All vehicles manufactured as traditional passenger-carrying buses with two-axles, six-tires and three or more axles. This category includes only traditional buses (including school buses) functioning as passenger-carrying vehicles. All two-axle, four-tire minibuses should be classified as other two-axle, four-tire, single-unit vehicles (type "3"). Modified buses should be considered as trucks and be appropriately classified.

5

Two-Axle, Six-Tire, Single-Unit Trucks: All vehicles on a single frame including trucks, camping and recreational vehicles, motor homes, etc., having two axles and dual rear wheels.

6

Three-Axle, Single-Unit Trucks: All vehicles on a single frame including trucks, camping and recreational vehicles, motor homes, etc., having three axles.

7

Four-or-More Axle, Single-Unit Trucks: All vehicles on a single frame with four or more axles.

8

Four-or-Less Axle, Single-Trailer Trucks: All vehicles with four or less axles consisting of two units, one of which is a tractor or straight truck power-unit.

9

Five-Axle, Single-Trailer Trucks: All five-axle vehicles consisting of two units, one of which is a tractor or straight truck power-unit.

10

Six-or-More Axle, Single-Trailer Trucks: All vehicles with six or more axles consisting of two units, one of which is a tractor or straight truck power-unit.

11

Five-or-Less Axle, Multi-Trailer Trucks: All vehicles with five or less axles consisting of three or more units, one of which is a tractor or straight truck power‑unit.

12

Six-Axle, Multi-Trailer Trucks: All six-axle vehicles consisting of three or more units, one of which is a tractor or straight truck power-unit.

13

Seven-or-More Axle, Multi-Trailer Trucks: All vehicles with seven or more axles consisting of three or more units, one of which is a tractor or straight truck power‑unit. "

Sorry to create such a large post just felt compelled to render the WHOLE story.

hankaye

[smiller]

The followingis a much more compleate reading for those not inclined to follow links and take someone's word that they are posting the full statement.
I kind of resent your implication that I was trying to cover anything up or tell anything less than the 'WHOLE' (your emphasis) story. I didn't post the entire text for clarity, not because I was trying to hide something. I want the correct answer as much as anyone else.

Getting to your point... on one page it says 'Any single-unit vehicle described by vehicle types 3-7 in Chapter III' and in the section you quoted it does indeed say single unit vehicles are defined by types 5-7. I don't know for certain which is correct but I would guess the former because why wouldn't 'Other Two-Axle, Four-Tire, Single-Unit Vehicles' (Type 3) and Buses (Type 4) be considered single unit vehicles? You seem to be saying that they should not be included in the single unit vehicle definition and I can't see why that would be the case, and if not then the 'types 3-7' definition seems to be most correct.

But apart from all of that, are you saying that you know for certain that a Class A license is required in Texas any time a vehicle tows more than 10,000 lbs., or just debating the precise meaning of the DOT regs? I think the first question is what we're really interested in.

[smiller]

And I think I see the answer. Single unit vehicles are described by types 3-7 and single unit trucks are described by types 5-7. And that makes sense since types 5-7 are trucks and types 3-7 include vehicles other than trucks. But the Texas statute references single-unit vehicles so... 3-7.

[hankaye]

smiller, Howdy;

Perhaps I was a bit harsh in my original responce... I appoligize.

So, Looking back at The Ch. 2 that you originally sent us to to find we needed to be at Ch. 3.
Chapter 2: Definitions

This chapter contains definitions to be used in preparing HPMS data for FHWA. Specific details addressing summary, universe, standard and donut area sample data, and LRS locational data are contained in Chapters III, IV and V, respectively. Chapter VI contains data updating requirements and Chapter VII contains information on sample selection and maintenance. Collectively, these chapters provide necessary definitions, guidelines, coding instructions, reporting formats, and update specifications necessary to facilitate the reporting of current, consistent, and uniform data on a nationwide basis.

Certification of Public Road Mileage: An annual document furnished by each state to FHWA certifying the total public road length (kilometers or miles) in the state as of December 31st. This document is to be signed by the Governor of the State or by his/her designee and provided to FHWA by June 1st of the year following (23 CFR 460). See the definition of "Public Road".

Combination Truck or Vehicle: Any multi-unit vehicle described by vehicle types 8-13 in Chapter III."

Don't know what type of RV you have but mine is comprised of 2 units,
a tow vehicle (pick-up truck), and a towed vehicle (RV). That would indicate to me that it is a combination of sorts. However, when looking over the list of Codes and Descriptions, Code 2. one see's that when registered as a passenger vehicle are grouped into Group 3.
However, Folks with a DRW pick-up need to read carefully here,
"Two-Axle, Six-Tire, Single-Unit Trucks: All vehicles on a single frame including trucks, camping and recreational vehicles, motor homes, etc., having two axles and dual rear wheels.", are Group 5. Subtile differences that the
Barney Fifes of this world thrive on.......







Vehicle Type Codes and Descriptions(1)
Code Description
1
Motorcycles (Optional): All two- or three-wheeled motorized vehicles. Typical vehicles in this category have saddle type seats and are steered by handlebars rather than a wheel. This category includes motorcycles, motor scooters, mopeds, motor-powered bicycles, and three-wheeled motorcycles. This vehicle type may be reported at the option of the State, but should not be reported with any other vehicle type.

2
Passenger Cars: All sedans, coupes, and station wagons manufactured primarily for the purpose of carrying passengers and including those passenger cars pulling recreational or other light trailers. Vehicles registered as passenger cars that are pickups, panels, vans, etc. (described as vehicle type "3") should be reported as vehicle type "3".

3
Other Two-Axle, Four-Tire, Single-Unit Vehicles: All two-axle, four-tire vehicles, other than passenger cars. Included in this classification are pickups, panels, vans, and other vehicles such as campers, motor homes, ambulances, hearses, and carryalls. Other two-axle, four-tire single-unit vehicles pulling recreational or other light trailers are included in this classification.

4
Buses: All vehicles manufactured as traditional passenger-carrying buses with two-axles, six-tires and three or more axles. This category includes only traditional buses (including school buses) functioning as passenger-carrying vehicles. All two-axle, four-tire minibuses should be classified as other two-axle, four-tire, single-unit vehicles (type "3"). Modified buses should be considered as trucks and be appropriately classified.

5
Two-Axle, Six-Tire, Single-Unit Trucks: All vehicles on a single frame including trucks, camping and recreational vehicles, motor homes, etc., having two axles and dual rear wheels.

6
Three-Axle, Single-Unit Trucks: All vehicles on a single frame including trucks, camping and recreational vehicles, motor homes, etc., having three axles.

7
Four-or-More Axle, Single-Unit Trucks: All vehicles on a single frame with four or more axles.

8
Four-or-Less Axle, Single-Trailer Trucks: All vehicles with four or less axles consisting of two units, one of which is a tractor or straight truck power-unit.

9
Five-Axle, Single-Trailer Trucks: All five-axle vehicles consisting of two units, one of which is a tractor or straight truck power-unit.

10
Six-or-More Axle, Single-Trailer Trucks: All vehicles with six or more axles consisting of two units, one of which is a tractor or straight truck power-unit.

11
Five-or-Less Axle, Multi-Trailer Trucks: All vehicles with five or less axles consisting of three or more units, one of which is a tractor or straight truck power‑unit.

12
Six-Axle, Multi-Trailer Trucks: All six-axle vehicles consisting of three or more units, one of which is a tractor or straight truck power-unit.

13
Seven-or-More Axle, Multi-Trailer Trucks: All vehicles with seven or more axles consisting of three or more units, one of which is a tractor or straight truck power‑unit.


(1) Additional information about the means of identifying the vehicle types may be found in the current FHWA Traffic Monitoring Guide.

hankaye

[smiller]

Don't know what type of RV you have but mine is comprised of 2 units, a tow vehicle (pick-up truck), and a towed vehicle (RV). That would indicate to me that it is a combination of sorts. However, when looking over the list of Codes and Descriptions, Code 2. one see's that when registered as a passenger vehicle are grouped into Group 3.
However, Folks with a DRW pick-up need to read carefully here,
"Two-Axle, Six-Tire, Single-Unit Trucks: All vehicles on a single frame including trucks, camping and recreational vehicles, motor homes, etc., having two axles and dual rear wheels.", are Group 5. Subtile differences that the
Barney Fifes of this world thrive on.......
Yes, a truck and trailer does seem contrary to use of the word 'single' but as written that is how a pickup truck and personal RV seems to be considered. And in fact in most of the threads I could find on the subject the participants seemed quite adamant that in Texas the noncommercial Class A requirement when towing is for a combined GVWR over 26,000 lbs., truck and trailer. But I'm not a lawyer and not absolutely certain which is correct, nor do I know how to find out for sure. One could say 'call the DMV' but when it comes to arcane matters like this it seems that 'someone at the DMV' is likely to be the least informed, or at least that has been my experience. :banghead:

And the part about 'two axles, four wheels' is indeed interesting. Is a SRW pickup truck and an RV considered a single unit vehicle but not if the pickup is a dualie? It's not Barney Fife I'm worried about, it's Perry Mason. As Firecapt pointed out in the original post, being on the wrong end of this could get you in a place you don't want to be.

[jsmith948]

An interesting topic of discussion I really like this forum and always enjoy the lively exchange of opinions and ideas.
I guess it would be safe to say that no one likes Orwellian government regulations. However, the license requirements referenced by the OP came about in an effort to ensure that individuals operating very large and heavy RVs on the public highways have at least the minimum knowledge necessary to be able to safely get down the highway!
We've all seen the individual that comes into camp or the fuel stop and it is obvious that he has no business driving a rig of that size. There have been numerous accidents and many fatalities on California's highways involving large vehicles that can be attributed to a lack of experience and/or knowledge on the part of the operator. "Just saying":)
JMHO - FWIW

[Javi]

I base this on the highlighted below... for instance My ¾ ton pickup is rated at 10,000 GVWR but if I were pulling a 16,100 lb GVWR trailer I would need a Class A...

I'm pretty sure (although I've been wrong before) that you must have a Class A to pull a trailer that has a GVWR of more than 10,000 lbs.. in Texas and I'd suggest that anyone not having a Class A and currently pulling or planning to pull such a trailer had better contact the local DPS office for clarification of this requirement...

Fortunately my current trailer falls short of that GVWR and so I'm not required... but I think I'm still going to email the DPS headquarters in Austin and ask...

SUBCHAPTER D. CLASSIFICATION OF DRIVER'S LICENSESSec. 521.081.

CLASS A LICENSE. A Class A driver's license authorizes the holder of the license to operate: (1) a vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more; or(2) a combination of vehicles that has a gross combination weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more, if the gross vehicle weight rating of any vehicle or vehicles in tow is more than 10,000 pounds.
Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 165, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995.

Sec. 521.082. CLASS B LICENSE. (a) A Class B driver's license authorizes the holder of the license to operate: (1) a vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating that is more than 26,000 pounds;(2) a vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of 26,000 pounds or more towing: (A) a vehicle, other than a farm trailer, with a gross vehicle weight rating that is not more than 10,000 pounds; or(B) a farm trailer with a gross vehicle weight rating that is not more than 20,000 pounds; and(3) a bus with a seating capacity of 24 passengers or more.(b) For the purposes of Subsection (a)(3), seating capacity is computed in accordance with Section 502.162, except that the operator's seat is included in the computation.
Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 165, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995.

Sec. 521.083. CLASS C LICENSE. A Class C driver's license authorizes the holder of the license to operate: (1) a vehicle or combination of vehicles not described by Section 521.081 or 521.082; and(2) a vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of less than 26,001 pounds towing a farm trailer with a gross vehicle weight rating that is not more than 20,000 pounds.
Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 165, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995.

Ref... http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/TN/htm/TN.521.htm

[smiller]

Thank you for finding the actual text of the law, that makes it clearer. But the question is not what a Class A allows, it is what a Class C license allows (since that is what we have), and you need to read the entire section more carefully. To explain again:

A Class C license allows 'a vehicle or combination of vehicles not described by Section 521.081 or 521.082' (Class A or Class B).

So, Class A describes:

1. 'a vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more'

That does not describe my rig (a 9,000 lb. tow and a 12,000 lb. trailer.)

2. 'a combination of vehicles that has a gross combination weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more, if the gross vehicle weight rating of any vehicle or vehicles in tow is more than 10,000 pounds.'

The GVWR of my trailer is 12,000 lbs. so the first part of the sentence applies, but my combination of vehicles does not have a gross combination weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more, so the section does not apply.

My vehicle combination is not described in 521.081 or 521.082 so a Class C license is adequate.

Read it again and think about it. And I guess we can dispense with any 'single unit vehicle' debates because apparently the actual statute doesn't even mention it.

[Javi]

Thank you for finding the actual text of the law, that makes it clearer. But the question is not what a Class A allows, it is what a Class C license allows (since that is what we have), and you need to read the entire section more carefully. To explain again:

A Class C license allows 'a vehicle or combination of vehicles not described by Section 521.081 or 521.082' (Class A or Class B).

So, Class A describes:

1. 'a vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more'

That does not describe my rig (a 9,000 lb. tow and a 12,000 lb. trailer.)

2. 'a combination of vehicles that has a gross combination weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more, if the gross vehicle weight rating of any vehicle or vehicles in tow is more than 10,000 pounds.'

The GVWR of my trailer is 12,000 lbs. so the first part of the sentence applies, but my combination of vehicles does not have a gross combination weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more, so the section does not apply.

My vehicle combination is not described in 521.081 or 521.082 so a Class C license is adequate.

Read it again and think about it. And I guess we can dispense with any 'single unit vehicle' debates because apparently the actual statute doesn't even mention it.

Like I said... it doesn't describe mine either... Although it could, if I went with a large 5’er since my 250 is rated at 10K and to pull up to 16,100…. it wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility for someone to be driving a 350 and pulling a trailer that would put them over and never even consider the fact that they are illegal…

[smiller]

Like I said... it doesn't describe mine either... Although it could, if I went with a large 5’er since my 250 is rated at 10K and to pull up to 16,100…. it wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility for someone to be driving a 350 and pulling a trailer that would put them over and never even consider the fact that they are illegal…
Sure, absolutely. As I said a while back some of the larger 5th wheel/tow vehicle combinations could put you over the 26,001 lb. limit. I was only pointing out that a trailer of over 10,000 lbs. in itself does not necessarily require a Class A (in Texas that is, per the OP you apparently do need an endorsement in California.)

[randy69]

I was born and raised in califorina I'm now 60 and in the last 25 years the petty laws and over taxes are the reason why people and business are getting out. If your poor, The state supports you. If your rich nothing to worry about. Unfortunately I'm middle class. It's like living in foreign country.

[SAD]

My Dodge dually and my Avalanche would require a non-commercial class A if I lived in Texas. I'm glad I live in OK. :-)

[hoffbrew]

ok... I have a DMV Commercial Test Station right across the street from my business so I walked over there .... I need a Class A non-commercial do to my 5er being over 15,000 lbs. Written test and driving test performed in there facility. My dads trailer is 12,700 lbs and is not for hire so he needs nothing. This info is from a person at the test station. I spent an hour over there double checking everything needed

[hoffbrew]

DMV goes by the posted GVWR sticker

[Firecapt]

All I can cite is my original post and this link to the California DMV website that states the legal requirements.

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/dl648/dl648pt5.htm

When I went into DMV to get my endorsement (after my 5er purchase), at first they told me the same thing. Having read about this for years on other RV forums I had a copy of the regulation & the Recreational Vehicle Handbook (link in my original post).

The guy said he had never heard of this and got the head supervisor for the facility. The supervisor didn't know what I was talking about either and off they went to "call Sacramento HQ". When they returned, they said that I was right but they didn't have the tests or paperwork and were having everything faxed over.

About 1 1/2 hours later, I had taken my tests, paid my fees, and walked out with my endorsement.

This was exactly as described by other RVer's on other websites over the years. That's why I went in prepared with their own booklet & regulation in hand.

[smiller]

Was there a driving test? If so what did it consist of?

[hoffbrew]

This is what was presented to me

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/dl648/dl648pt2.htm

[smiller]

Was there a driving test? If so what did it consist of?Nevermind... I just saw this in the link you posted:

"You are not required to take a pre-trip, skills, or driving test to add a Recreational Trailer endorsement to your current license."

[hoffbrew]

I am bringing my rig to work and going over to them for the test, some paperwork and some studying first though! I will let you know how it all goes.

[Murray0512]

I was going to let my cdl class a expire next year when I retired I ll have to think twice about that now thanks for the infro
Danny

[JeffS]

Michigan has a Special Endorsement for Triple Towing

If you pull a recreational trailer such as a boat trailer, cargo trailer or flat-bed trailer for hauling all-terrain vehicles behind a fifth-wheel trailer, you are required to obtain a special endorsement for your license. This "R" or recreational double-endorsement is available to drivers at least 18 years old from a branch office of the Michigan Secretary of State. Drivers must pass a test and pay a nominal fee.

This only applies to recreational vehicle drivers. A commercial driver who has obtained an endorsement to drive a double trailer is not required to have the "R."

[CPE]

I HOPE this is not a repeat, but PA requires a non- commercial cdl license when towing a trailer and vehicle whose combined gvwr( tow vehicle+trailer) exceeds 26,000 pounds. This is from the PA vehicle code .
A truck dealer here told me of a similar thing here where driver was involved in an accident and did not have this endorsement and was not paid for his vehicle because of not having a valid drivers license.

[stormy2000]

does the CA law apply if your visiting from out of state? we're first time RV'ing and from FL but looking to do some traveling, never thought about the rules/laws of the other states in regards to towing.

bill & jodi

[Firecapt]

California, like all states, has what are called "reciprocal agreements" with all other states.

What this means for you is that as long as you are properly licensed to drive/tow in your home state, you are legal to drive/tow in other states, including California.

Come on out for a visit, we'd love to have you :wlcm:

[Courtland]

I am bringing my rig to work and going over to them for the test, some paperwork and some studying first though! I will let you know how it all goes.

Any update to this? Looks like I need to get a non commercial class A to be legal and need to go through this process. One thing I am concerned about getting a Non-Commercial Class A is the way a ticket would work. I have many friends that have the Commercial Class A licenses in CA and if they get a speeding ticket it is 2 points instead of 1, being a professional driver you are held to a higher standard. I am trying to find out if this applies to anyone with a Class A license in CA or only those Commercial drivers. I had a friend that recently got a ticket in his wife's car and it cost him 2 points, he cant go to traffic school apparently. One thing I have learned in CA is nothing is for sure. Every DMV office interprets the laws differently and even the CHP officers have their own interpretation of these laws. Gotta love CA!

[tomsws6]

Thats a crazy law.. Im pretty sure we dont have anything like that here in DE.

[smiller]

Any update to this? Looks like I need to get a non commercial class A to be legal and need to go through this process. One thing I am concerned about getting a Non-Commercial Class A is the way a ticket would work. I have many friends that have the Commercial Class A licenses in CA and if they get a speeding ticket it is 2 points instead of 1, being a professional driver you are held to a higher standard. I am trying to find out if this applies to anyone with a Class A license in CA or only those Commercial drivers. I had a friend that recently got a ticket in his wife's car and it cost him 2 points, he cant go to traffic school apparently. One thing I have learned in CA is nothing is for sure. Every DMV office interprets the laws differently and even the CHP officers have their own interpretation of these laws. Gotta love CA!
If you read through the thread you'll find that you do not need a Class A license, just an endorsement to your Class C (unless your GCWR is greater than 26,000 lbs.)

Every DMV office interprets the laws differently and even the CHP officers have their own interpretation of these laws. Gotta love CA!
Like most 'California' faults, it's pretty easy to find that complaint for just about any other state in the union.

[Courtland]

If I read everything correctly and understand the forms, If the 5th wheel trailer is over 15000 lbs (which it is 16000 lbs) and my truck is over 10000 lbs (which it is 11000 lbs) lbs then a non commercial class A is required. Am I totally misunderstanding this?

[smiller]

If I read everything correctly and understand the forms, If the 5th wheel trailer is over 15000 lbs (which it is 16000 lbs) and my truck is over 10000 lbs (which it is 11000 lbs) lbs then a non commercial class A is required. Am I totally misunderstanding this?
Sorry, my mistake, I didn't realize that your weights were that high. The Class C endorsement is only good up to 15,000 lbs. trailer weight.

[hoffbrew]

Any update to this? Looks like I need to get a non commercial class A to be legal and need to go through this process. One thing I am concerned about getting a Non-Commercial Class A is the way a ticket would work. I have many friends that have the Commercial Class A licenses in CA and if they get a speeding ticket it is 2 points instead of 1, being a professional driver you are held to a higher standard. I am trying to find out if this applies to anyone with a Class A license in CA or only those Commercial drivers. I had a friend that recently got a ticket in his wife's car and it cost him 2 points, he cant go to traffic school apparently. One thing I have learned in CA is nothing is for sure. Every DMV office interprets the laws differently and even the CHP officers have their own interpretation of these laws. Gotta love CA!

I have not taken the test yet, I am very soon. CA has built this huge Commercial Test Station/CHP facility right across the street from my business, I have walked over there numerus of times to get this straight. Facility said they dont care about the truck, just the trailer, due to not being for hire ... gotta love it! Now that I am typing this, I will make my appt by walking over there in the a.m.

[Courtland]

I have my written test setup for Friday, I will assume I need to plan for at least a couple hours since I assume I will walk in there knowing more about the law than the people that enforce it. :) Once i get that completed I will schedule the driving test. Did i read this correctly last night on the CA DMV website, once you are permitted (passed the written) you must show up for your driving test with your rig you plan to tow and you must have a licensed co-pilot that currently holds the same license you are testing for? Hoffbrew, how was the written test?

[Courtland]

Well I took the Non-Commercial Class A test (this is the Commercial Class A test minus a section on air brakes) today, I also had to retake my Class C test since I have not renewed it recently and decided to finally get my Motorcycle license so I took the Motorcycle exam just I case I didn’t think I would have enough questions to answer. After doing all three tests and passing each the nice DMV lady told me she messed up and I also needed to take a 5th wheel endorsement exam (turned out to be the RV Endorsement exam). Took this exam and passed it as well. So after 2 hours at the DMV and 4 passed exams it proved to be a successful morning. Now I need to schedule the driving test portion for my Non-Commercial Class A and I should be all set and apparently legal.

One thing I will point out is I used the “RV and Trailers Handbook” to study for the test when I should have also been reading the Commercial Class A handbook (http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/comlhdbk/comlhdbk.pdf)as well. Luckily I was able to pass this test (58 questions) missing only 4 questions, but I might have been more prepared for the Non-Commercial Class A test questions had I read the right material, there were some questions on commercial laws, federal laws and buses on the exam. :D

[5akman]

...and the driving test is only if your fiver weighs over XX lbs correct? Still trying to figure out what I need to do in CA to drive my SRW Dmax and tow my 7000lb fiver!

[Courtland]

...and the driving test is only if your fiver weighs over XX lbs correct? Still trying to figure out what I need to do in CA to drive my SRW Dmax and tow my 7000lb fiver!

Correct, if your 5th wheel is under 15000 lbs then you only need the trailer endorsement (RV Endorsement) and that consists of one written test about 28 questions long as I recall. There is no driving test for just your RV endorsement. Just pay the $31.00, pass the test and you are legal to tow.

[SAABDOCTOR]

Cortland you are only missing a first class medical and a atp pilots licsence!! good luck. Barney:banghead:

[Courtland]

So, my neighbor across the street from me also has a large Fuzion 5th wheel over 15000 lbs and decided he better get his Non Commercial Class A as well. I told him to be prepared for his 4 tests (Class C, Class M, RV Endorsement and Class A) so he wasn't shocked when he went in. Well he came home from the CA DMV yesterday and said he only had to take three tests. Apparently the person told him that for his Non Commercial Class A he didn't need to take the Class A test, only the RV Endorsement. He explained to the person that I was just in there for the same exact thing and had to take four exams to get my Non Commercial Class A, apparently the nice lady said I took one to many and he passed his three so he is good to go with his Non Commercial Class A permit now.

Has anyone that has received their CA Non Commercial Class A tell me what tests are really needed. From my reading I took the correct tests and now he is worried that the lady messed up and he will have to go back for another test or they wont let him take the driving test portion.

Gotta love the DMV, they have no clue what they are doing.

[Murray0512]

After reading all this I understand even more why I not longer drive in CA even with CDL. My daughter lives there . It's fly in fly out.

[Courtland]

So I finally got around to taking my California Non Commercial Class A driving test and thought I would provide a little information for anyone else that is thinking of taking it. It is a confusing test and I wish I had this information ahead of time. So I would have been more prepared.

First for your written test, make sure you read the CA DMV Commercial Driver Handbook (http://apps.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/comlhdbk/comlhdbk.pdf) and the Recreational Vehicle and Trailers Handbook (http://apps.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/dl648/dl648.pdf). You will have to take have to take the Class C test if you have not renewed your Class C license in the last 6 months. You will then have to take the RV Endorsement test and the noncommercial Class A test which is the Commercial Class A test minus the air break section. Both of these tests were rather simple especially the RV Endorsement test, but I was not prepared for some of the questions on the noncommercial class a test since I never read the Commercial Driver Handbook. That is a test of 58 questions as I recall and you get to miss 8 only. Once you have all of these tests complete you have to get ready for your driving test.

For your driving test:


Make an appointment for the skills test and for the driving test.
Bring your permit.
Bring the appropriate type of vehicle
Provide proof of insurance.
Bring your current valid Registration for vehicle


Once you arrive you will take a pre-trip inspection test before you get behind the wheel. Read the RV Pre-trip inspection for a Noncommercial Class A (http://apps.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/dl648/dl648.pdf) (pages 6 & 7) from the DMV RV Handbook and make sure you state exactly what it says in the book. I failed my first pre trip inspection according to the DMV Test lady because I apparently stated things like “Headlights are clear and working, both high and low beams are in working order” and I never said that the lights were “Clean”. Another was I stated that “the windshield should be clean and not have any cracks”, she said I was supposed to state “The windshield must be clear and undamaged” and my favorite I stated I would check the coolant level but never pointed to where that huge overflow bottle under the hood is. I kid you not; I had 4 items that she failed me on and was told to come back after I understand the Pre-Trip inspection. So beware you may get a tester that is looking for exact syntax or looking to go home early. The other issue she had with me is I did my pre-trip inspection in 12 minutes, she stated it should take 25-30 minutes. These are all reasons why I am adding this information for the forum users. After this failed test I reached out to a friend that has his Class A and he told me how to take the test, I should have done this before the first test.

For your pre-trip inspection open the hood and get ready to spend some time doing your test. Walk around as you do your pre-trip inspection and point to everything you are going to do and check, if it was on page 6 or 7 of the handbook point it out and stated what you are checking and why. For example I went to every truck and trailer tire and stated “I would verify the tire is properly inflated and have evenly worn tread and not cuts or damage. I would verify all lug nuts are present, not loose or have any visible cracks. I would verify the rims are not damaged, bent and have no welds. I would also look for rust trails to indicate a loose rim.” I know it sounds ridiculous, but the DMV tester is expecting you to do a pre-trip inspection without actually doing it. You must point out everything you are checking and state why you are checking it. Make sure you hit all the points in the DMV pre-trip inspection book I listed above and make sure you add things to check like the Shock mounts and Drive Shaft, anything you can see on the vehicle and the trailer are fair game so mention it all.

Once you pass your pre-trip inspection test you get to move inside to the truck. Here you will have to show that all your lights (stop/turn/hazzard) are in working order and then you will need to demonstrate you know where everything is. My tester had me point out all the gauges and explain what they did so be ready to do that just in case your tester has you do this as well. This of course was the easy part of this whole test and it not anything to stress about.

Once you finished that you finally get to start driving. For the driving test we drove around town doing right and left turns and then jumped on the freeway and did some freeway driving. After about 20 minutes of driving around town he had me drive to the DMV test spot to do some more tests. I did four tests - Alley way backup, straight line backup, forward stop and Parallel Park.

The Alley way test was backing the trailer at a right angle between four cones (two front and two rear) and then stopping when you are no less than three feet from the back cones without going over. Not bad and easy to accomplish just make sure you stay between the cones and don’t go over. On this test you are docked a point for every time you put the truck in Drive from reverse. Don’t worry about taking a point, you still pass this test as long as you don’t go over 3 points I believe. I put it in drive once and readjusted to make sure I was between the cones.

The backup test was super easy, you back up in a straight line between the cones and you stop no less than three from the rear cones without going over that rear imaginary line. Stay between the cones and you are good.

The forward stop test is a little tougher. You pull forward to a line on the ground and stop ensuring your front bumper is within a foot of the line. Not difficult but you need to be a little more precise on this test. Just practice knowing where your front end is and you should be good.

The last test was the most difficult; Parallel park your RV and truck. So the tester basically gave me about 60 feet to put my 42.5 foot trailer and crew crab truck in. Overall I think I am around 53 feet in length so this was going to be a fun test. On this test you can’t go past the rear cones and you need to stay within the front cone. You are docked a point for every time you put the truck in drive and move forward, so they expect you to do it in one motion. I told my tester there was no way I could do that, he told me just get the trailer into the spot and I would be good. Well I put the truck in drive twice and barely got the trailer into the spot with the truck still hanging out front of the imaginary roadway. He said I did ok and barely made it by a few inches even though I ran over his front cone. I told him there is no car as small as a cone and I couldn’t see the cone in my mirrors. I think he felt sorry for me after I told him of my first experience with the tester from the previous test.

After all these tests we went out and did a normal driving test like you would do for any class c license. This was easy, make sure you have both hands on the wheel, look over your shoulder before turning, use your signals and always go into the proper lane after a turn. I missed that one as he had me turn right and after making the turn I could see the lane ended about 100 feet ahead so I stayed in the middle lane. Got a point off for that.

Here is some other info that may help you out.


Do not make your test for a Friday afternoon. Yes it is easy for you, but the DMV tester only has one test in the afternoon so after they are done with you they get to go home. I did this my first time and it may explain why the tester was so critical of me.
Make sure you point to everything during your pre-test inspection and explain what you would check and why. If you get to a point where the tester is done they will tell you move on. As I said the pre-inspection test should take around 25 minutes so take your time. No need to rush.
Make sure you set aside at least 3 hours. My test was 2 hours and 15 minutes and then another hour at DMV as they had no idea how to issue me a noncommercial class A for my truck and trailer. They had a weight issue with my truck and trailer that stated the truck and trailer had to be under 25K pounds for a noncommercial class A but my truck and trailer are over 27K pounds. Took an hour to sort out.
Practice backing into a right angle and parallel parking. You want to make sure you don’t have to put the truck in drive to make too many corrections.


If you have any specific questions about the test please feel free to send me an PM and if you are taking the noncommercial class A test, good luck.

Courtland

[hankpage]

Courtland, Congratulations http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=251&pictureid=1179 Now I'll bet that you will never be asked if you have that endorsement. You never did mention if you found someone with that license to go with you. Travel safely, Hank

[Courtland]

Thank you. I never found anyone to "take" me to my test appointment. My friends that all have their Class A license all live about two hours away so I just drove myself to the test. Figured I wouldn't get into any trouble doing that.

[SAABDOCTOR]

well you were either right or your posting this from jail:D if the latter i will bake you a cake ;);) the devil made me do it!

[Little Guy]

Whoa! I am really confused now.
:rofl:

[Maxzd]

I did the same test in British Columbia Canada a few days ago, on a Monday afternoon. Very similar to how you describe the testing in California. Written test first, book road test later. 92 dollars all in...

I can see how an examiner could make this more complicated. The test should be straight forward but I think it has a few pretrip checks which nobody would ever think to check in a million years. (like RV ladder which is BOLTED to the unit. Not in the test book that i could find.) I was fortunate my guy was fairly level headed. I had a couple of misses which are suspect but I passed so I can live with that.

I know alot of RVers take a hard stance on not doing this test... I have been one of them for a long time and finally decided to do it. Now when I exceed 10,000lbs if something was to happen my insurance company can't get out on a technicality. Legally, if road checks ever start on large Tow RVs like commercial vehicles I won't have to panic.

I checked the ladder on another quick trip this week so I guess their plan worked. "bouncey:

[byrdr1]

Dang ya'll...
Courtland and Maxzd congrats...
I like the east coast for a reason..
I like my Cougar being under 12K...
I like calling North Carolina home!
randy

[Kellykakes]

Wow...so much confusing information on this thread.

The first thing I would do would be to go to my local DMV office and get a copy of the RV and Trailer Handbook (if you want a hard copy) or download it from their website for free at http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/dl648/dl648.pdf

The second thing I would do is READ IT!!! The information in the book could potentially keep you from getting a ticket, having your vehicle impounded, or your insurance company from refusing your claim because you are not properly licensed.

The rules for trailers and 5th wheels are different, so you really need to read the book to see what licensing requirements applies for your specific vehicle or vehicle combination.

Also, the book lists the offices throughout the state that are able to give the applicable tests (written/skills). That way you won't be all pissy when you walk into your local DMV and they don't know what you are talking about or know the exact answers to your questions. :eek:

[cabinfever]

The problem I see in PA is you can't find specific info in any one place. Then to add to confusion, every state trooper or PA dot enforcement may give you varying answers or not be able where to point you too to print out the exact text on the law! I'm a sole proprietor landscaper and have been asking for clarification for a number of years on a few things. Now that we purchased our TT I have called, waiting for call back, a PADOT enforcement officer to clarify a few more things. My work GCVW with is 16,000lbs and I think I have that covered, but the TV/ TT GCVW is 18,885lbs and I believe I'll get to figure out a few more confusing laws now that Im there! I wish all states would come up with a flow chart so we all could be legal! Start here...if you are X, go this way....if you are Y, go this way to a final list of all requirements for eachs situation. Many find out they are illegal while thinking they had all covered.

[Kellykakes]

The best place to start is the state Department of Motor Vehicles. They determine licensing for all vehicle types/combinations. The laws come from the Vehicle Code for that particular state. As far as licensing in PA, this is a link to their website. It explains the criteria for each type of driver license.

http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/driverLicensePhotoIDCenter/license_classes.shtml

[wincrasher]

Looks like I'm OK in South Carolina. The default is the D license, which I have.
Note that the requirements are on GWR and GCW, not GVWR. I suppose, if there were an accident and your claim were denied, you could claim your actual weight did not exceed - suppose the insurance company would have to weigh the combined debris. If it was based on GVWR, then the published specs would probably prevail.

From the SC DMV site:

General Driver License Information
Driver License Classes
Regular (non-commercial) driver's licenses are issued in the following classes depending on the type and intended use of the vehicle. Click the following link if you are interested in Commercial Driver Licenses (CDL).

Class D
A Class D driver’s license allows you to drive non-commercial passenger vehicles, such as cars and trucks, which do not exceed 26,000 pounds gross vehicle weight. With a Class D driver’s license, you may also operate a three-wheel vehicle (excluding a two-wheel motorcycle with a side car).

Class E
A Class E driver’s license allows you to operate non-commercial, single unit vehicles that exceeds 26,000 pounds gross vehicle weight. Examples of Class E vehicles include trucks and motor homes. With a Class E driver’s license, you may also operate a three-wheel vehicle (excluding a two-wheel motorcycle with a side car).


Class F
A Class F driver’s license allows you to drive non-commercial, combination vehicles that exceed 26,000 pounds gross vehicle weight. Examples of Class F vehicles include trucks and motor homes with a towed trailer or vehicle and any combination of vehicles used exclusively for recreation such as truck and camper combinations if the gross combination weight exceeds 26,000 lbs. With a Class F driver’s license, you may also operate a three-wheel vehicle (excluding a two-wheel motorcycle with a side car).

Class G
A Class G driver license allows you to operate a moped as that vehicle is defined by S.C. Code of Laws, Section 56-1-1710.

Class M
A Class M license allows you to operate a two-wheel motorcycle, a two-wheel motorcycle with a detachable side car, or a three-wheel vehicle.



Back to Top
Reminder for Motor Home Owners
If you plan to operate a motor home that has a Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) that exceeds 26,0000 lbs., you must obtain a Class E license. If you operate any combination of vehicles exclusively used for recreation (example: a motor home and tow a trailer or other vehicle that has a Gross Combination Weight (GCW) that exceeds 26,000 lbs., you must have a Class F license. You may take the Class E and F knowledge tests at any SCDMV field office which provides full driver license services. Due to the space required for a Class E or F skills test, these tests must be taken at one of the 35 SCDMV field offices that offer commercial driver license testing.

During the basic skills portion of the Class F test, motor home operators will be allowed to disconnect the towed vehicle. However, the towed vehicle must be reconnected for the road test portion of the skills test.

For more information about Class E and F driver licenses, click here.

[Htfiremedic]

Looks like I'm OK in South Carolina. The default is the D license, which I have.
Note that the requirements are on GWR and GCW, not GVWR. I suppose, if there were an accident and your claim were denied, you could claim your actual weight did not exceed - suppose the insurance company would have to weigh the combined debris. If it was based on GVWR, then the published specs would probably prevail.

From the SC DMV site:

General Driver License Information
Driver License Classes
Regular (non-commercial) driver's licenses are issued in the following classes depending on the type and intended use of the vehicle. Click the following link if you are interested in Commercial Driver Licenses (CDL).

Class D
A Class D driver’s license allows you to drive non-commercial passenger vehicles, such as cars and trucks, which do not exceed 26,000 pounds gross vehicle weight. With a Class D driver’s license, you may also operate a three-wheel vehicle (excluding a two-wheel motorcycle with a side car).

Class E
A Class E driver’s license allows you to operate non-commercial, single unit vehicles that exceeds 26,000 pounds gross vehicle weight. Examples of Class E vehicles include trucks and motor homes. With a Class E driver’s license, you may also operate a three-wheel vehicle (excluding a two-wheel motorcycle with a side car).


Class F
A Class F driver’s license allows you to drive non-commercial, combination vehicles that exceed 26,000 pounds gross vehicle weight. Examples of Class F vehicles include trucks and motor homes with a towed trailer or vehicle and any combination of vehicles used exclusively for recreation such as truck and camper combinations if the gross combination weight exceeds 26,000 lbs. With a Class F driver’s license, you may also operate a three-wheel vehicle (excluding a two-wheel motorcycle with a side car).

Class G
A Class G driver license allows you to operate a moped as that vehicle is defined by S.C. Code of Laws, Section 56-1-1710.

Class M
A Class M license allows you to operate a two-wheel motorcycle, a two-wheel motorcycle with a detachable side car, or a three-wheel vehicle.



Back to Top
Reminder for Motor Home Owners
If you plan to operate a motor home that has a Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) that exceeds 26,0000 lbs., you must obtain a Class E license. If you operate any combination of vehicles exclusively used for recreation (example: a motor home and tow a trailer or other vehicle that has a Gross Combination Weight (GCW) that exceeds 26,000 lbs., you must have a Class F license. You may take the Class E and F knowledge tests at any SCDMV field office which provides full driver license services. Due to the space required for a Class E or F skills test, these tests must be taken at one of the 35 SCDMV field offices that offer commercial driver license testing.

During the basic skills portion of the Class F test, motor home operators will be allowed to disconnect the towed vehicle. However, the towed vehicle must be reconnected for the road test portion of the skills test.

For more information about Class E and F driver licenses, click here.

I went to the Laurens office and renewed my Class E. they said that I had to have to pull my fiver. I just said ok, as it is quoted as a "single unit license" above.

[cabinfever]

The best place to start is the state Department of Motor Vehicles. They determine licensing for all vehicle types/combinations. The laws come from the Vehicle Code for that particular state. As far as licensing in PA, this is a link to their website. It explains the criteria for each type of driver license.

http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/driverLicensePhotoIDCenter/license_classes.shtml

Which license is easy. The vechicle codes is where things start to get conflicted. The only question in PA I have for license is what vechicle weight and above requires a cdl physical card. I believe it is 9001lbs and above, but have been told it is 9000lbs and above. Other than that, all my questions for the DOT enforcement officer, when he returns my call!, are vechicle code related. Thanks for the link though.

[cabinfever]

First, sorry for taking this topic to PA! Talked to a PA DOT enforcement officer today. In PA for RV trailering as long as your trailer weight is 10,000lbs and below a standard drivers license is all that needed, irregardless of GCVW. 10,001 lbs and above trailer, must follow FED DOT regulations. If you are doing commerce, making money, the same 10,001 lbs and above applies to any trailer. Also, if GCVW is 17,001 lbs and above, you must have a combo registration and follow FED DOT regulations. This next would apply to all crossing state lines for commerce, any combo of 10,001lbs and above must follow FED DOT regulations. I have heard of horse and car racing people getting tickets and was unsure why. Even though those people may be racing for a hobby they are making money, commerce. So if they combo at 17,001lbs and above and are from PA, FED DOT regulations apply. If from out of state coming to PA to race and 10,001lbs combo, FED DOT regulations apply.

[Comptech]

Ok, So did some digging for a CDL here in VA, Looks like I need a CDL class A. (NOT) edited...
My 2012 330RBK Cougar shipping weight is 10035 and the cargo weight is 2230. So Can I assume the GVWR of my trailer is the two added up?

http://www.keystonerv.com/previous-years?brand=Cougar&year=2012

http://www.dmv.virginia.gov/drivers/#cdl_class.asp

You should get your commercial driver's license (CDL) for the class of vehicle that you plan to drive.

The class of a vehicle is determined by its gross vehicle weight rating and the manufacturer's design. The vehicle's class determines the type of CDL and any endorsements that you are required to have. If you drive a redesigned or altered vehicle, the type of CDL and endorsements that you need is determined by the vehicle's original class and not by the class of the redesigned vehicle.

Class A

Any combination of vehicles with a gross combination weight rating (GCWR) of 26,001 pounds or more if the vehicle(s) being towed has a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of more than 10,000 pounds. Vehicles in this class include:

Tractor-trailer
Truck and trailer combinations
Tractor-trailer buses
If you hold a class A license and you have the correct endorsements, you may also operate vehicles listed in classes B and C.

Class B

Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 pounds or more. Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 pounds or more towing another vehicle with a GVWR of 10,000 pounds or less. This class includes:

Straight trucks
Large buses
Segmented buses
Trucks towing vehicles with GVWR of 10,000 pounds or less
If you hold a class B license and you have the correct endorsements, you may also operate vehicles listed in class C.

Class C

Any vehicle that is not included in classes A or B that carries hazardous materials or is designed to carry 16 or more occupants, including the driver.

Class M
Permits you to drive a motorcycle.

[Comptech]

And on the same note I just called Keystone and my 5er is rated @ 12,265 GVWR..... DMV here I come...:banghead: (NOT) edited

You know.... why don't the dealers tell you this stuff... they should know this :banghead:

[Comptech]

Ok never mind... I guess I miss read the requirements...
It is very confusing...

[cabinfever]

One thing for sure I got from my conversation with the PA DOT enforcement officer. Anywhere in this country if your trailer weighs 10,001LBS and up, you must follow federal DOT regulations.

[SAD]

One thing for sure I got from my conversation with the PA DOT enforcement officer. Anywhere in this country if your trailer weighs 10,001LBS and up, you must follow federal DOT regulations.

Shows you how wrong they can be.

I can drive my 56,000 GVWR Prevost any where in this country with my regular-old "car" license issued by the state of Oklahoma. Including PA!

[SAD]

Ok never mind... I guess I miss read the requirements...
It is very confusing...

You need to get clarity on the requirements... Have you read this?

http://www.dmv.virginia.gov/drivers/#whoarecdl.asp

Commercial driver's license requirements do not apply to:

Operators of emergency vehicles, such as firefighters
Active duty military personnel operating military vehicles
Operators of vehicles, such as recreational vehicles and rental moving vans, used only for personal use

[cabinfever]

Shows you how wrong they can be.

I can drive my 56,000 GVWR Prevost any where in this country with my regular-old "car" license issued by the state of Oklahoma. Including PA!

Your Provost is self contained RV, not a trailer? Your correct on varying info from differnt Troopers and I brought that subject up to the trooper I spoke with, and I did it cautiously! Many people who end up with a ticket thought they had followed every law applicaple to them when towing non commerce type trailers.

[SAD]

Your Provost is self contained RV, not a trailer? The DOT officer said any trailer above 10,001LBS. falls into Fed DOT regulations.

So if my 5er is 14.5k, I need a medical card and stop at weigh stations?

[SAD]

Nice edit ;)

[cabinfever]

So if my 5er is 14.5k, I need a medical card and stop at weigh stations?

Well I found this about weigh stations. Talk about more confusion! Every state seems to have its own specs on who must stop and weigh.

http://drivinglaws.aaa.com/laws/weigh-stations/

[Loriv247]

Congrats Courtland on passing and thank you for all the great tips! I guess since we are in CA and our GVWR is going to be over 16K, we will both be getting our non-commercial class A. I can't believe they make you parallel park! Yikes! Hubby is going to be doing triple back flips over this one!

[Kellykakes]

I don't think so. My hubbie went to a CA DMV yesterday and they laughed when he asked about that. I think someone was pulling our leg on that one.

Directly from the handbook (and the DMV manager's mouth):

Skills Test:

Skills tests are designed to demonstrate your skill in stopping, backing in a straight line, completing a right turn around a cone or marker, and backing into a space. These tests are done at low speed and test how well you can maneuver the vehicle.


So...negatron on the parallel parking. We both will be taking the test in the next few weeks.

[Kellykakes]

So if my 5er is 14.5k, I need a medical card and stop at weigh stations?

is only required if you have a COMMERCIAL driver license. DMV may require you to take a health/medical exam questionnaire for a non-commercial driver license, but you would not have to carry a card for that.

In California, you would not need to stop at any weigh stations unless your towing vehicle is something other than a pick-up (ie., flat bed, truck tractor, box truck). I believe this is the same for all states, but when you approach ANY weigh station, READ the signs and they will tell you whether you need to enter or not.

[cabinfever]

is only required if you have a COMMERCIAL driver license. DMV may require you to take a health/medical exam questionnaire for a non-commercial driver license, but you would not have to carry a card for that.

In California, you would not need to stop at any weigh stations unless your towing vehicle is something other than a pick-up (ie., flat bed, truck tractor, box truck). I believe this is the same for all states, but when you approach ANY weigh station, READ the signs and they will tell you whether you need to enter or not.

Unfortunatly like many other vechicle codes, who needs to stop at weigh stations vary state to state. I posted a list from AAA above.

[Kellykakes]

for posting that list. Everyone of us should carry a copy of that in our vehicle so there is no surprise while traveling through a particular state!

Just keep in mind that even though AAA is providing information, it is our responsibility to confirm the accuracy, as AAA does not make or enforce the laws.

[SAD]

Of particular importance.... And likely mis-understood by many is "Truck"...

Our vehicles are not "Trucks"... You might see a sign that indicates "All trucks over 10,000 GVW must weigh".... Well our vehicles are not trucks in the sense that you think. A Big3 Dually is a "passenger vehicle" - i.e. a "car"...

If you see a sign "All trucks over 26,000 GVW must weigh", they do not mean Grammy and Grampy in their 33K GVWR motorhome...

If you have doubt, read the laws AND the definitions section of the laws. You want to understand not just what the law says, but the true intent and applicability.

Just sayin' :)

[cabinfever]

SAD...good point....but some states list trucks with GVWR over 8000lbs and 9000lbs must stop. To me that size indicates 3/4 and 1 ton trucks, I don't know of any "big truck" that has a gross weight that little. Also, some states do talk about passenger vechicles. Again another instance where uniformaty and clarity between states would be nice.

[Kellykakes]

SAD...good point....but some states list trucks with GVWR over 8000lbs and 9000lbs must stop. To me that size indicates 3/4 and 1 ton trucks, I don't know of any "big truck" that has a gross weight that little. Also, some states do talk about passenger vechicles. Again another instance where uniformaty and clarity between states would be nice.

Each state has a Vehicle Code that provides definitions for "trucks" (ie., motor trucks and truck tractor) and "pick-ups" etc...I'm sure most states have them online. Trucks and pick-up trucks are NOT the same by definition. Hope that helps a little...

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/vc/tocd1.htm

[cabinfever]

This is a good conversation. Hope it has prompted some to check and/or varify they are good to go because the most important thing to remember is these regulations will keep all of us safer. Also remember to consider the fact that every state is looking for money and every police and DOT agency is looking to justify their existence and many violations can bring in hundreds of dollars to thier state!

[Avofarmer66]

If I read everything correctly and understand the forms, If the 5th wheel trailer is over 15000 lbs (which it is 16000 lbs) and my truck is over 10000 lbs (which it is 11000 lbs) lbs then a non commercial class A is required. Am I totally misunderstanding this?

Thanks Courtland and FiresCapt.

I want to thank all who have responded to and commented on the Calif. Recreational Veh and Trailer licensing.

The Calif state does recuire an endorsement on your Class C license if your 5er is under 15000 lb. and my Farmers Insurance agent said I could be a risk of NO Accident Coverage if the insurer determins I'm not properly licensed.
Over 15000 lb. requires a Non-commerical class A license written and driving test.

Took the test today, there was some confusion at the DMV in Escondido but I had called Sacremento DMV (HQ) to claify the testing requirements and after 3 Escondido clerks had their discussion, I took the (20 question test #656) Not difficult...

Read the 44 page book #DL648 found on the web @ dmv.ca.gov.

O!!! stopped at Camping World on the way home to pick up some black streak remover and took some time to talk to a Montana saleperson. They know nothing about licenseing and do not advise their customers as to proper or required licensing.

SOOOO buy a new 5er pull out on the street get hit, found at fault... to bad so sad!!!

[Avofarmer66]

How many 5er owners in Calif. know about the proper requirements?

Should an effort be made to inform the many RV clubs??(tx)(tx)

[Pmedic4]

While looking through this old posting, it was surprising to see this Drivers License classification. As an firefighter/EMT, we went through vehicle driver testing and certification so as an Illinois licensed driver, I have a Class B license which is allowed to drive a vehicle over 26,001 pounds and for towing a trailer up to 10,000 pounds. The good news is my 5ver is fully loaded is under 10,000 pounds.

What I didn't realize there was the restriction at 10,000 for the trailer, and I wonder how many other people are aware of this restriction for their fifth wheel? I assumed the Class B licensed covered me for just about everything but a Semi-tractor trailer combo. You would think the RV places would ask, or at least warn you about this requirement. I understand some dealers won't let you purchase a 'heavy' RV if you don't have the right truck, others don't care, and some downright ignore the rules. You would think they might offer the training manual and assist you in getting you the proper classification on your license.
BTW, it could have been when the dealer copied my license for the credit check could have verified my classification, but I think we've all learned with dealers to never check anything which might lose the sale.

Spoke with DMV and clarified the weights - if the Gross Combined Vehicle Weight is move than 26,001 pounds, and the trailer is greater than 10,000 pounds, you would need a Class A license. Not just if the trailer is greater than 10,000 pounds. Net is, if you have a 12,000 fifthwheel, and a 10,000 diesel dually, your still at the Class B level.
However, if you want to upgrade to Class A or B non-CDL in Illinois, all you have to do is take a written test and a driving test - with the vehicle that meets the weight level. Of course, you can't drive your rig to the DMV yourself, so get your buddy to do it.

[Chano]

Well, just got a ticket this past weekend on way back to Houston from Corpus Christi Texas. I have an f250 gvw 8800lbs. 293sab with gvw of 11900. The Trooper said I need a class a non com license due to the weight of the trailer is over 10000lb. I will let you know what the judge says on Sept 19th.

[labs4life]

Well, just got a ticket this past weekend on way back to Houston from Corpus Christi Texas. I have an f250 gvw 8800lbs. 293sab with gvw of 11900. The Trooper said I need a class a non com license due to the weight of the trailer is over 10000lb. I will let you know what the judge says on Sept 19th.

Did you do anything wrong to warrant the stop?? Or did he see the combo and pull you over for inspection?? I think this will become an issue in more states going forward!!

[Javi]

Well, just got a ticket this past weekend on way back to Houston from Corpus Christi Texas. I have an f250 gvw 8800lbs. 293sab with gvw of 11900. The Trooper said I need a class a non com license due to the weight of the trailer is over 10000lb. I will let you know what the judge says on Sept 19th.

Yep, that's the way the law reads. Best thing you can do is go get the endorsement (the test is easy) and show up in court with it. Then tell the judge that you were not aware of the law but having been made aware you immediately got the correct endorsement.

You might escape the fine that way...

[Chano]

[QUOTE=labs4life;93677]Did you do anything wrong to warrant the stop?? Or did he see the combo and pull you over for inspection?? I think this will become an issue in more states going



Yes I was doing 41 in a 30. I know to fast with a trailer but he didn't write me up for that. Lol. I just hope the cost isn't to much, I already had the humiliation of having to call my brother-in-law to bring the trailer home,(he has a class a commercial) but had to listen to him and my wife all the way home...

[labs4life]

Do as Javi suggested and get the endorsement before court!! Might gets you some points with the judge!! Not a hard test, just take it and be done.

[Chano]

Stopped by Monday and picked up the book, they thought I was crazy until I showed them the ticket. Take the written part next week and the driving test is scheduled when I pass. Hope it works! I guess this is my stupid tax. Oh well, I better start studying.

[jtyphoid]

Well, just got a ticket this past weekend on way back to Houston from Corpus Christi Texas. I have an f250 gvw 8800lbs. 293sab with gvw of 11900. The Trooper said I need a class a non com license due to the weight of the trailer is over 10000lb. I will let you know what the judge says on Sept 19th.

My understanding is that a TX Class A non-commercial is only required if the trailer is over 10K *AND* the GCWR is over 26K. This is from the TX CDL Handbook.
Unless I'm reading something incorrectly, you shouldn't need a Class A because your GCWR is under the limit.

[Javi]

My understanding is that a TX Class A non-commercial is only required if the trailer is over 10K *AND* the GCWR is over 26K. This is from the TX CDL Handbook.
Unless I'm reading something incorrectly, you shouldn't need a Class A because your GCWR is under the limit.

This is where they get you... It's all about the GVWR of the trailer, more than 10K gets you a Class A license.

Class C Driver License
A Class C driver license permits a person to drive:
1. A single vehicle or combination of vehicles that are not included in Class A or Class B; and
2. A single vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of less than 26,001 lbs. towing a trailer not to exceed 10,000 lbs. GVWR or a farm trailer with a GVWR that does not exceed 20,000 lbs

[Chano]

My understanding is that a TX Class A non-commercial is only required if the trailer is over 10K *AND* the GCWR is over 26K. This is from the TX CDL Handbook.
Unless I'm reading something incorrectly, you shouldn't need a Class A because your GCWR is under the limit.

That is what I thought, but the trooper thought differently. I called a law firm in Houston, and they said they could get me off for $2500.00. Way too much, when the license is only $10.00 to add on to the one I have. I guess when I see the Judge I will know for sure.

[gearhead]

Please keep us updated on how this ends. My Cougar XLite has a shipping weight of 7600 and carrying capacity of 2400. I guess I'm OK.
Chano...was the trooper a "truck" patrol for 18 wheelers? They usually drive a Tahoe or a crewcab pickup and have scales. Mostly see them in heavy trucking areas. Did he weigh you or just read the stickers on your tuck and trailer? Were you traveling hwy59?

[Chano]

Please keep us updated on how this ends. My Cougar XLite has a shipping weight of 7600 and carrying capacity of 2400. I guess I'm OK.
Chano...was the trooper a "truck" patrol for 18 wheelers? They usually drive a Tahoe or a crewcab pickup and have scales. Mostly see them in heavy trucking areas. Did he weigh you or just read the stickers on your tuck and trailer? Were you traveling hwy59?

He was a trooper, did not weigh me but said the GVWR sticker on the trailer was all he needed. It reads 9000lbs empty and GVWR of 11930. I've been pulling trailers for 20 + years and never heard of this until now. I passed the written test but need to wait until mid Oct for the driving test. They said I need to parallel park the 53 foot train in the parking lot. I've done a lot of things with my trailer but not parallel park, should be interesting.

[gearhead]

Texas DPS seems to be keeping this a secret. I don't know how they would get this out to the public. I guess a public service type commercial on TV.
Same thing with the trailer inspections. I just found a Texas inspection sticker on my trailer frame.
Dealer sure isn't going to bring it up.

[Murphsmom]

http://www.itd.idaho.gov/dmv/driverservices/CDL.htm

If I read this correctly, Recreational vehicles are exempt in Idaho.

Anyone know about South Dakota?

[Javi]

Texas DPS seems to be keeping this a secret. I don't know how they would get this out to the public. I guess a public service type commercial on TV.
Same thing with the trailer inspections. I just found a Texas inspection sticker on my trailer frame.
Dealer sure isn't going to bring it up.

20.05 Certificate Mounting Procedures for Trailers, Semitrailers, Pole Trailers, Mobile Homes, and Converter Dolly
1. On the Vehicle (Optional). Punch the month of issuance and year of expiration. Remove the inspection certificate’s back paper and attach the certificate face up on a clean metal surface at or near the left front or side of the trailer. Place the inspection certificate in place and apply firmly. On pole trailers, attach to the left front or side of the rear bolster. OR
2. Metal Plate or Holder - Backing plate or metal certificate holder (optional - to be furnished by vehicle owner). Punch the month of issuance and year of expiration. Remove the certificate’s back paper and attach the certificate face up on the clean metal surface of the plate or holder. The plate or holder should be mounted at or near the left front or side of the trailer. On pole trailers, attach to the left front or side of the rear bolster. On the backing plate, place the inspection certificate in place and apply firmly.
NOTE: On mobile homes and travel trailers the certificate may be mounted on a window located at or near the left front or side of the vehicle.
NOTE: On House Moving Dollies, the owner must furnish a metal backing plate or metal certificate holder which shall be mounted at or near the license plate for the purpose of attaching the certificate.
03.25.00 EXPIRATION OF INSPECTION CERTIFICATES
The certificate of inspection shall not be valid after the end of the 12th month in which the vehicle was last inspected (24th month for two-year certificates).
Enforcement on expired inspection certificates shall begin after the fifth day following the expiration of the period designated for the inspection indicated by the month and year on the certificate.

[macattack]

For all you Maryland residents (of which I am one) I have been doing some research on this subject and find that the laws in Maryland seem to be just as murky as in some of the other states discussed above.

So I have written a letter to the Maryland MVA Administrator explaining the dilemma over this lack of clarity and asked him to definitively sort it out so that a clear statement of requirements for proper class of license can be disseminated to RV owners here. He will have no choice but to have his lawyers converge on the issue and release a statement of requirements.

I will let the forum know when I have results.

[Bob Landry]

That's no great surprise for Kalifornia. States do that when they are running out of money for social programs, or thy are losing tax revenue because businesses are leaving.

[jtyphoid]

They said I need to parallel park the 53 foot train in the parking lot. I've done a lot of things with my trailer but not parallel park, should be interesting.

I take my skills test Oct 1st. The CDL test (even for non commercial) takes longer, so the first open slot was over one month out from taking the written test.

They didn't say anything about parallel parking, but I didn't ask, either. The TX CDL Handbook states that you "may" be asked to parallel park. I've only had to parallel park a trailer once in 15 years, so I've practiced it a few times already and will probably drag the 5th wheel out a few more times for some more practice before the test.

Did you happen to ask if we have to do the detailed pre-trip inspection (check all fluids, belts, etc.) for a non-commercial Class A? I wasn't able to find anyone who could give me an answer when I was in for the written test.

[hankaye]

jtyphoid, Howdy;

Will you be bringing someone with a proper license to accompany you to the
site? Most States are kind of picky about that as you aren't considered properly
licensed until you have passed the tests and have the proper paperwork. So, if
you don't pass the skills test, you have someone to drive your trailer home.
Ya do need to cover ya'll's bases ya know...

hankaye

[jtyphoid]

Hankaye,

I've been trying to figure out how I'm going to handle that. I know a few folks with CDLs, but they all work during the day. Besides the test day, there's also the issue of legally practicing until I get the license.

[Chano]

Hi everyone,

Had a little trouble getting on the site this weekend but, here is the update.
I went to court with my little paper that said I passed the written test, explained that my driving test is in October and the judge lowered my fine to $50.00 + court cost (normally $250.00). So total of $75.00. His words were "usally, I drop the charge in half to be nice, but since you took the test, I'll be extra nice and drop to $50." He also told me to pass the word. Any trailer over 10,000lbs, regardless if it is an RV, needs a class A non-CDL or CDL. This is for Texas only, I don't know about other states.

[Bob Landry]

I'm wondering if any of the RV dealers bring this up when they are trying to move those huge fivers off their lots..

[Chano]

I know my dealer did not! I traded in my TT for this Cougar, we love this cougar, and all he said was "oh, you have a man truck and not a little boy truck, you can pull anything on this lot". But to be fair I didn't ask either. I thought I knew what I was doing...lol

[Pmedic4]

Hi everyone,

Had a little trouble getting on the site this weekend but, here is the update.
I went to court with my little paper that said I passed the written test, explained that my driving test is in October and the judge lowered my fine to $50.00 + court cost (normally $250.00). So total of $75.00. His words were "usally, I drop the charge in half to be nice, but since you took the test, I'll be extra nice and drop to $50." He also told me to pass the word. Any trailer over 10,000lbs, regardless if it is an RV, needs a class A non-CDL or CDL. This is for Texas only, I don't know about other states.

I had posted some of this before in a different thread, as I followed your story with some interest since Illinois follows the same Federal licensing standards of :
Classifications
Class A — Combination of vehicles with a GCWR* of 26,001 or more pounds, providing the GVWR of the vehicle being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds.
Class B — Single vehicle with a GVWR* of 26,001 or more pounds, or any such vehicle towing another not in excess of 10,000 pounds.
Class C — Single vehicle with a GVWR* of at least 16,001 pounds but less than 26,001 pounds.
Class D — Single vehicle with a GVWR* of less than 16,001 pounds.
*GCWR — Gross Combination Weight Rating
*GVWR — Gross Vehicle Weight Rating

I called our DMV, and asked about these requirements. The first comment is, what is the GVWR of your TV? Most PU trucks have a GVWR of less than 22,000 pounds, and if the truck weighs 9000 pounds and your GVWR of your RV is less than 13,000, you could get by with a Class C license with a TV with GVWR of 22,000. However, some 350(0) DRW have a GVWR of greater than 26,001 pounds. So, according the the DMV in Illinois, now the actual weight of the travel becomes a factor and that same RV is towed with that DRW with a GVWR of 30,000, you now need a Class A license - so the Class B doesn't necessary apply to RV owners.. To me it seems like there is somewhat of a odd donut hole in the legal requirements for Illinois.

Another thing that is confusing to some people is that owners of RV's are exempt from CDL license requirements, but they confuse the proper Class endorsement from CDL requirements for their rig. I was aware of this as a Firefighter, as we were exempt from CDL, but still had to have the Classification of B for the 50,000 fire trucks. However, since our firetrucks didn't tow any trailer, we didn't need Class A. The good news for me is the GVWR of my 5Ver is less than 10,000 pounds so my Class B is acceptable.
Of course, it may depend upon how the judge see the law too:eek:

[macattack]

To all Maryland RVers as confused as I was about drivers license requirements for operating your rig...

After several months and several cycles of correspondence, one elevated to the governor's office in order to "encourage" a reply, I have finally received a response from the Maryland MVA Administrator that clarifies the requirements, at least for noncommercial licenses, and at least until the General Assembly changes the law to make us all go back and get new licenses. The crux of his response to my inquiries as to what's required is as follows, and I quote:

"The holder of a non-commercial Class "C" Maryland driver's license is permitted to operate a single non-commercial motor vehicle (such as a self-contained recreational vehicle (RV)/motor home with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of less than 26,001 lbs. This driver may also operate a non-commercial motor vehicle combination (such as a pick-up truck and small camper or boat) as long as the GVWR is less than 26,001 lbs. The trailer or towed vehicle may have a GVWR over 10,000 pounds as long as the total weight of the towing vehicle and the towed unit is less than 26,001 pounds. A higher class license would be required to drive a single unit or a combination over this GVWR."

In addition, I would advise IMHO, that for insurance protection you also not exceed your tow vehicle manufacturer's GCVWR for your truck and RV, For example, even though the Maryland law allows me to tow up to a combined weight of 26,001 lbs, the allowable GCVWR for my F350 is only 23,500 lbs. so that's all I'll be towing. That gross weight includes the truck, RV, driver and passengers, pets, food, potable water, and everything else you plan to stow in your camper. It's the TOTAL gross weight. Good idea to have your rig, fully loaded, weighed by an accredited scale and keep the paperwork with you.

Hope this helps all you Maryland RVers.

[SAD]

...
In addition, I would advise IMHO, that for insurance protection you also not exceed your tow vehicle manufacturer's GCVWR for your truck and RV, For example, even though the Maryland law allows me to tow up to a combined weight of 26,001 lbs, the allowable GCVWR for my F350 is only 23,500...

Why?........

[macattack]

...because if I am in an accident (either my fault or the fault of an uninsured driver) I do not want my insurance company to refuse to cover me because they claim that I was driving an unsafe rig that exceeded the tow vehicle's GCVWR limit. I MAY be able to beat that in court, but, then, why tempt that fate?

Besides, do you really want to tow beyond what the vehicle manufacturer tells you is safe for your truck?

[SAD]

...because if I am in an accident (either my fault or the fault of an uninsured driver) I do not want my insurance company to refuse to cover me because they claim that I was driving an unsafe rig that exceeded the tow vehicle's GCVWR limit. I MAY be able to beat that in court, but, then, why tempt that fate?

So... The insurance company can deny a claim because you do something that is not recommended?

Your insurance has ONE PURPOSE.... To cover negligence. YOURS included.

What if you do something like run a red light and hit a pedestrian? Are they going to deny the claim because you were breaking the law at the time?

These insurance discussions as it relates to towing are baseless and do nothing but spread misinformation.

[macattack]

I can only suggest that you refer back to the original post that started this discussion thread by a Californian whose insurance company denied him coverage in an accident (even though the fault of an uninsured motorist, not him) because he was driving with the wrong class of license; i.e., he was breaking the CA driving laws. They would not reimburse him for loss under his policy's uninsured motorist clause.

Do as you wish, but as for me I want to be both safe and covered.

[Javi]

I've never met an insurance company that didn't look for every possible reason to NOT pay a claim.

SAD, I know you have a reallllly low tolerance for folks that worry about insurance companies not paying claims for accidents where the driver was knowingly negligent and you could be 100% correct... however I also know that there are claim payments denied or greatly reduced every day because the driver was knowingly negligent. And as a note.. your example of running a red light is not a good one because while it is relatively easy to prove someone ran a red light it is much more difficult to prove it was intentional. Where it is extremely difficult to prove that you didn't know that 3K pin weight didn't exceed your F150's GVWR and drove it anyway with blatant disregard for the public safety as well as your own. :D

[SAD]

My insurance has parameters it works within.... Licensed drivers; no unmarried male/female under the age of 25.

In the example given in post one of this thread.... It did not meet the parameters of his insurance policy... An unlicensed driver was driving.

I totally understand the insurance company not paying.

However, if a licensed driver had been driving and had a single vehicle accident because they were drunk, and subsequently arrested for DWI.... The insurance company would have paid to replace the vehicle... Because they would pay for negligence within the boundaries of the contract.

Now.... Lets talk about tires!

[GlutenFreeRV]

I'm new to the forum and haven't waded through all 12 pages of this thread yet, but what happens if there's an accident in California (or some similar state) but the driver is licensed in another state that doesn't have the same endorsement requirement?

[Ken / Claudia]

Hello, gluten free rv, I am to, found out about 7 years ago. Thought I was dieing from being in to many meth labs before the gluten problem was found. Back to your Q. I only know Oregon laws inside/out. Most states traffic laws mirrior others but, not ALWAYS. Oregon goes by what is legal in the residence state regarding licenseing of vehicles and drivers. Equipment laws that are different are over looked by most cops but, not exempt. Like no front plate, drivers tinted windows.