Keystone "Quiet Cool" Issue

[closesquarters]

Our new 2012 Keystone Montana has the relatively new "Quiet Cool" air conditioning feature. Two air intake ducts feed the air conditioner from both sides of the room so you can't actually "see" the air conditioner unit from inside the camper. The idea is that this way, the inside of the camper will be much quieter as the air conditioner is not exposed. This does work, however, I am having another problem. I am having a terrible time cooling down the camper with the single 15,000 btu AC. Regardless of the outside temp, the air conditioner is only reducing the interior temperature 5 to 6 degrees lower than the outside temp. I feel air coming out of the vents, but it seems like it should be more forceful - (this is not my first rig). I removed the vent covers and inspect the ducting for issues. Don't find any issues in the ducting pushing out the cold air. Next, I remove the two air intake vent covers... and discover the likely problem. The ductwork for both air intake vents is nearly completely "choked-off" between the air intake, and the air conditioner. Please see the pictures. I managed to get the camera lens into both ducts and photograph what it looks like as the duct approaches the AC unit. In one image, you will see some sort of wiring that is actually the only thing holding the vent shaft open. If anybody else out there is having issues cooling their Keystone Fifth Wheel and you also have the "Quiet Cool" feature... I'd love to hear from you. Also, please check your air intakes... I'm curious if mine is some rare defect... or if this is more common. I just discovered this last Friday, July 20. I left a message with Keystone, and also phoned my dealer who I sent these photos to. We will see what happens.

[jsmith948]

Wow. How long are these return ducts? From your pics, it looks as though the ducts have been "sucked in" by the a/c?

[Ron]

I had the same problem with my new Montana this last weekend. During the day it blew alot of cold air as we had no afternoon shade at our camp site and the temp was around 85-90 degrees. As it cooled down in the evening, to around 70 degrees, the outside temp was cooler than the inside temp and very little air coming out of the vents. What I thought was that the coil was probably freezing up and not letting air through to the vents so I shut the unit down and the water started to pour off the roof after some time, so my assumption was correct. Turned unit back on after about 2 hours had had alot of air movement again.

I contacted dometic and what they said is as long as there is hot/warm air circulating around the coils it won't freeze up, but when it cools down and pulls cool air over the coils, it will freeze up but it is suppose to auto defrost but mine did not, even did it again the second night so I will be doing another test this weekend to see if freezes up again. Also contacting dealer to get there opinion.........Good Luck and I will post what I find out later......Happy Campin...............Ron

[closesquarters]

Wow. How long are these return ducts? From your pics, it looks as though the ducts have been "sucked in" by the a/c?

Not sure how long the ducts are, but probably about 3 to 3 1/2 feet each.

[closesquarters]

Talked to Keystone this afternoon. Not surprisingly, I was directed to take the camper to my local Keystone dealer for evaluation and repair. The Keystone rep I spoke to got the impression that the ductwork had collapsed and could be pushed-back open. When I assured him that the ductwork seemed "crushed" with constant pressure on it, he really had no idea what was going on. Camping the next 3 weekends so I'll have to try to get it in somewhere in a month or so.

[Terrydactile]

Looks like the duct work is collapsed. If so, of course the air flow will be restricted. This will more than likely cause the coils to freeze up making the situation even worse. The coils freezing up explains the excessive flow of water off the roof when you shut down the unit.

Hopefully your dealer can fix it. Should be under warranty. Taking pictures before they (dealer) messes with it may prove to be priceless.

[steamfitter78]

Mind is doing the same thing. I get direct sun on the back only from about 3 on. But it just can't do the job. I will check it then i get home and let you know.

[mhs4771]

I think with the extremely high temps we've been having everywhere, 1 AC is just not going to hack it in these rigs. When we have a 50 amp site so we can run both 15K ACs we can keep the inside temps in the low to mid 70s while the outside temps are in the upper 80s to low 90s. This past week while at Samborees and Rallies with only 30 amp service we could only run 1 AC and it just couldn't keep up. Closed off the bedroom and closed the vents there to keep more cool in the living room area helped, but still got warmer than we would have liked.

[Ron]

Well here we are camping again and last night the unit froze up again and no air coming out of the vents, so I pulled the 2 return air grills and I also have collapsed return air duct and here are the pics. I contacted a close Keystone production plant in Pendleton Oregon and they said I had to contact a repair facility so I contacted another place in Pendleton and we are going to take it there after our camping season is over with. It isn't rocket science how things work and should be put together but it seems that keystone sure does a half a.s job some times. Also the auto defrost isn't working and there is a sensor that is probably either not hooked up or in the wrong place so that will also be checked at the time of repair. Oh ya also got a cup full of shavings just out of the return air grill area, I bet the fins are full of it. As mentioned before, when I bought a Montana, I thought I was buying the cream of the crop, I GUESS NOT..............Ron

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[closesquarters]

Glad you checked the intake vents on your Montana Ron. I suspected, from how mine looked, that this is more of a faulty manufacturing issue than a random collapse or defect.

I made a short video of this that I posted on YouTube and should be available shortly. I'll attach the link when it's up and running.

[Ron]

Glad you checked the intake vents on your Montana Ron. I suspected, from how mine looked, that this is more of a faulty manufacturing issue than a random collapse or defect.

I made a short video of this that I posted on YouTube and should be available shortly. I'll attach the link when it's up and running.

Thanks and I'll be looking forward to seeing the video........Ron

[Bob Landry]

Keystone won't win any awards for their AC duct installations. A lot of people have founf obstructed and poorly taped duct work. In my case, it was just easier to fix it myself and move on rather than hassle with the dealer about it.

[closesquarters]

Just got my air conditioner intake vents repaired by the dealer. They said the problem was that the vacuum effect in the vents had created the lack of space for air to move. Their fix was to use some sort of epoxy glue to hold the vents open. They claimed to have removed the air conditioning unit off the roof to do this.

Using my hand to judge the air coming out of the vents after the fix... I'd have to say that the air volume seems to be much improved on high speed compared to before the fix. Just need some warm weather to test this out.

I promised a short video of the air intake shafts before the fix. Here's the video of that... Sorry about the low lighting, but you can definitely see tremendous lack of room for air to move toward the AC unit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pP5GQhQHS4

I will post a video of what the vent shafts now look like soon. I have not looked at them yet.

[Ron]

Nice video Closequarters, and love the music. I have been thinking of a way to permanetly fix the return air with thin wall pvc pipe lined up in the duct work, probably 1 1/2". If I feel the dealear didn't do a good enough job, I might just have to take the ac unit off my self and see if the pipe will do the trick., just a thought. Happy Campin............Ron

[mikie1]

Hello,

I have a 2013 Montana 3285RL with exactly the same problem as described above in this thread.

On a hot day the temp. will not cool down below 5 - 6 degrees below
the outside air temp. I have reported this to both my sales team and
the regional sales manager.

They say that because of the area I am in I should only need one A/C.
If I want to get cooler I need another A/C installed.

I reported this to Keystone with the statement that " when you pay
70K for a unit, you should expect some degree of comfort " Thier responce
was that "Keystone cannot warrent comfprt".

I just found this link and a you tube video on the quiet cool ac problem
in the 3582rl. I plan on sending theese links to my salesperson to forward to
his service dept and to the regional sales manager.

Doe's anyone have an idea on where I can go from here?

[closesquarters]

Sorry to hear you are having difficulties keeping cool.

As stated in one of my previous posts in this thread... my "quiet cool" issue was repaired by my Keystone dealer. Your dealer should be able to increase the space in the air intake vents of your rig.

Our 2012 3582RL seems to be running cooler, however, we've not had 90 degree camping weather yet to truly test it.

We did also add an additional air conditioning unit to our Montana. It's pretty slick in that it shares the same vented air ductwork as the main air conditioner. I ran them both together once now just to test them together... Wow... Huge difference in cooling ability than with just one air unit.

Good luck with your issue and feel free to contact me if you have any more questions.

[Bob Landry]

It looks like a poor installation and the duct wasn't properly taped when it was installed. These trailers all use rigid duct, not flexible.

[mikie1]

A second A/C unit would be nice. But it would cost 1200 to 1500. My
feelings again are that when you pay this much for the origional unit
shouldn,t you expect to be relitively comfortble. Is it unreasonable to
expect a 15 - 20 % decrease in temp from the outside air.

[Ron]

A second A/C unit would be nice. But it would cost 1200 to 1500. My
feelings again are that when you pay this much for the originally unit
should,t you expect to be relitively comfortble. Is it unreasonable to
expect a 15 - 20 % decrease in temp from the outside air.

Not only you are so correct on your statement, but how can they sell these things to the consumer with so many issues from top to bottom and feel good about that, as I have always said, there's another dummy standing in line to buy these things and one of them was me, as long as we keep buying them they will never change. As far as the quiet cool system, they should of called it Quiet but not Cool. We have not had to use it yet since it has been repaired so we will see what happens soon as the weather is getting warmer. With all the issues we have had with our Montana, Keystone will never get our business again......

[jlb27537]

Same problem with a 2014 3150RL. On a day in the 80's it will just not cool the unit. Will pull it apart this week end and have a look see. I suspect the collapsed return duct is the issue. The back a/c will have the normal water run off and then all of sudden it is like someone poured a bucket of water off the roof.

You need to buy these things, work on them for a year, and then plan on using them. I just sold a 17 year old motorhome with nothing wrong with it. Starting to wish I had it back.

[jrp]

Whether you need 1, 2 or 3 AC units depends on the size of your rig, the max temps you use it in, and your personal comfort level.
Is it reasonable to expect 1 RV type AC unit to cool your 38 ft RV in any temps above 85? I think not.
Is it reasonable for the Mfg who sells the exact same RV nationwide for use in temps from 0 to 100, to offer the additional cooling & heating units that only some of their customers will require, as an option? I think yes.
if something is broken, duct crushed or installed incorrectly, you have a right to have it fixed. But if your only problem is you refuse to pay for the 2nd AC option, then you have no complaint in my opinion. Whether you paid $70K or $100k has nothing to do with which options you should have selected to make the rig fit your temps & preferences.


A second A/C unit would be nice. But it would cost 1200 to 1500. My
feelings again are that when you pay this much for the origional unit
shouldn,t you expect to be relitively comfortble. Is it unreasonable to
expect a 15 - 20 % decrease in temp from the outside air.

[red71roadrunner]

Last August we purchased a 2013 Montana 3100rl and experienced the same problem. Three trips back to two different dealers and it's still not fixed. After contacting Dometic and hearing from them how the A/C should preform contacted Keystone directly. I had also scoped the air intake lines (what a mess)
and collected a sandwich bag full of debris. Keystone set up the next app. with my dealer (who said there was no problem) and convinced them there was a problem. Long story short, collapsed return lines, door side line 90percent obstructed with wires, plenum full of sawdust and construction debris, A/C unit packed full of debris, three air out lines disconnected (Must have had a little problem with quality control that day). A/C had to be removed and serviced and other repairs made.
And when we picked the unit up the service manager told us they checked their lot and found 7 trailers with the exact same problem, all were in the process of being repaired.
On the plus side Keystone Had our backs and were a pleasure to deal with.
We love the trailer..

[leyland02]

Just picked up my 2013 3402RL last week and I told my wife that the rear ac wasn't blowing as hard as the front ac. My duct work was crushed in and there was a lot of saw dust in the duct work. Dealer is 5 hour away so I figured I would look into repair myself. I removed top shroud and removed the small sheet metal that covers the return air duct. Vacuumed out saw dust and moved wires that was blocking 50% of return. Then installed two screws in the matal transition piece that had dropped down help block return air. This helped out a lot. I did then could see plenty of light in duct work indicating it was opened up. Air flow is much better. I would think a $60,000 unit would not have these type issues but you can never tell. Plan on a two week trip next week so I will take plenty of tools. Someone on here mentioned inserting a pvc pipe to hold duct work open. I like this idea, as it will not restrict flow.

[wva3185]

It looks like a poor installation and the duct wasn't properly taped when it was installed. These trailers all use rigid duct, not flexible. "Rigid" as in metal or "rigid" as in fiberglass. Just when I was finishing up my shorted lived career in HVAC the fiberglass duct work was just coming out. Staples, tape and fiberglass is supposed to be the equivalent of the old style wrapped metal duct work. It may be on paper but it never was in real world use as far as I could see. Me thinks if I had this issue I would want a metal liner shoved through the duct to hold it open. YMMV

[red71roadrunner]

The return air ducting in our Montana is made out of thin walled foam rubber material. I believe it was originally designed for flat ceiling application. When it is used for the vaulted ceilings, as one end is pulled down it collapses in the middle. Also with keystone approval our dealer used 2" flex hose like you would find on a spa to keep the duct open, seems to work.

Everyone should check their A/C units for debris. On top of the one cup sample I took in to show plus several cups I vacuumed out, the dealer collected an additional gallon baggie of stuff from the A/C unit and sent it to keystone.

[Bob Landry]

The lack of quality of Keystone's air conditioner installations is legendary. That said, only two things will cause icing. One is low refrigerant charge. That does happen occasionally, but given that these are closed systems that are charged through a process stub and then soldered, the likelihood of that being the issue is remote. Charge can be verified by a simple check with a clamp-on meter. Most folks do not have one, but believe me, the number of these units that leave the factory improperly charged is extremely few.
The second, and the usual cause of icing in RVs, is air restrictions caused by improper duct installation. A lot of issues can be fixed by inspecting and re-tapeing the plenum box and the ductwork around the discharge air registers. Air being blown into the ceiling isn't going to do you much good.
I said two things, but there is actually another. That would be a return air plenum that is sloppily taped and is allowing cold supply air to be fed directly back to the evaporator. Again, this goes back to sloppy installation practices.

I see this a lot on this and other forums, so I'll comment on it. Outside air temperature has nothing to do with evaluating the efficiency or performance of an air conditioner. Because trailers are so poorly insulated, it will give you a feel for how much heat is being radiated into the trailer and that heat has to be dealt with by the unit, but as a measurement, it really gives very little useful information other than affecting the current draw of the compressor. The 20 degree split is often mentioned and often misunderstood. That is a split between the temperature of the supply and return air being drawn through the coil. A 20 degree split tells you that the system is operating at top efficiency. You do have to make sure that your ductwork is good and that there are no air restrictions(or leaks) or this measurement means nothing. IF you know that the system is properly charged, and IF you know the ductwork is properly installed and you do not read a 20 degree delta T, then the unit is undersized for the size space you are trying to cool, and there is no fix for that except to add more BTUs of cooling. If you do get a 20 degree split, that's as good as it gets, you can't tweak it.