Towing Fifth Wheel with F150

[JRTJH]

We've long discussed the merits/pitfalls of towing a fifth wheel with a half ton truck. Some consider it a viable option, some don't. While reading the latest issue of Trailer Life, I ran across an interesting long term test that just began. The technical team at Trailer Life announced a long term test of the Fox Mountin compact fifth wheel. They selected a 2006 Ford F150 Crew Cab Short Bed (5'6") to tow the trailer. Specs on the trailer indicate an empty hitch weight of 1400 lbs, empty axle weight of 6600, GVW of 9500 and gross axle weight of 5200 (x2). The truck is a "used" F150 equipped with proportional brake controller and 7 pin trailer wiring. Specs are: GCWR 15000LBS, max trailer 9200, (with 17" tires and 3.73 rear end). I'm not sure of the exact specs for the truck, I got these from Ford's website, but the truck being used may have 18" tires which would reduce the max trailer weight.

At any rate, we've long debated operating a tow vehicle "at the limit" or "just over the max" and it looks like Trailer Life is going to tackle exactly that situation in their long term test. It will be very interesting to see how the "experts" equip, customize and operate this rig which borders on being "over the limit when loaded."

Stay tuned for information as it is published and, if you subscribe to Trailer Life, check out the June 2012 issue, page 61.

[mhs4771]

No matter what the outcome, we'll now have a ton of folks buying big 5th wheels and trying to tow them with their 1/2 ton TVs.

[Festus2]

Given the specs that are now known for both the Ford 150 and the Fox 5th, IF someone were to ask "Can my truck tow this?", what would our answers be and how will they compare to the actual test results? I am also wondering if Trailer Life receives advertising revenue from Ford and what would happen to those funds IF they should find that the Ford truck couldn't safely tow the Fox? Yes, the test results will be interesting.

[JRTJH]

Given the specs that are now known for both the Ford 150 and the Fox 5th, IF someone were to ask "Can my truck tow this?", what would our answers be and how they will compare to the actual test results? I am also wondering if Trailer Life receives advertising revenue from Ford and what would happen to those funds IF they should find that the Ford truck couldn't safely tow the Fox? Yes, the test results will be interesting.

Festus, Based on the specs of the trailer they are testing and the 2006 F150 with a 4 speed transmission and a max trailer weight below the GVW of the Fox trailer. I'd be reluctant to suggest to anyone that it would be a "good match" The newer F150's have markedly increased tow ratings, and payloads up to 2800 lbs. That's an entirely different animal than what they are testing.

We've often said, "You can't increase the axle rating" etc about upgrades. I'm very interested in what TL does to "modify" their test truck to make it more suitable for towing a trailer that apparently outweighs the truck's specs....

Will definitely be an interesting read....... and, as for Ford's sponsorship... Hmmmm there's also dodge and GM sponsorship in TL's advertising budget, so who knows how that will "temper" the outcome (I hope they are truly unbiased)

[JRTJH]

No matter what the outcome, we'll now have a ton of folks buying big 5th wheels and trying to tow them with their 1/2 ton TVs.

I just can't resist..... If a "TON" of folks buy "1/2 ton" trucks, they'll have to buy two trucks each to tow their new 5th wheel... :rofl:

[smiller]

A lot depends on how you define 'the limit.' If the limit is always >>> THE STICKER!!!! <<< regardless of any other considerations then the test is over before it starts, so that obvioulsy is not their criteria. If they are looking at real-world issues then the limiting factor safety-wise usually ends up being the rear axle rating, which is usually determined by rear tire rating. Since my guess is that this combination would be within the ratings of E-range tires then if those are added and appropriate springs and other simple mods are done then the rig probably won't turn into a mushroom cloud or be a particular danger on the road.

But... none of that addresses how much fun the thing would be to actually move down the road and the big difference between a driving experience of quiet confidence vs. white knuckles and a constantly laboring engine is something most of us have experienced. I'm not sure how they are going to factor that last part.

[JRTJH]

smiller, The worst "white knuckle" experience I've had while towing RV's for the considerable time I've been behind the wheel was in a 3/4 ton superduty turbodiesel towing a 34' Holiday Rambler travel trailer. Trailer weight of 7600 lbs with a GVW of 10000 lbs. Properly set up weight distribution hitch, good tires, good sway control and excellent driving conditions on a new stretch of super highway at 65 MPH. A sudden gust of wind, a semi passing at the same time and I was all over the road, trying to control a trailer that desperately wanted to pass my truck. I got it stopped, quite shaken and not really wanting to drive any further. I've never experienced that kind of situation in a half ton truck. (I'm not suggesting it isn't possible, just that I've never experienced it)

So, to suggest that replacing a half ton truck with a 3/4 ton truck somehow will "improve quiet confidence while eliminating white knuckle driving" and decrease laboring engines is just not what I've found to be the situation. A "white knuckle" situation can --and does-- happen in 3/4 ton trucks, in fact, it probably happens regardless of the size of the truck being driven.

[smiller]

A "white knuckle" situation can --and does-- happen in 3/4 ton trucks, in fact, it probably happens regardless of the size of the truck being driven.
Oh absolutely, no argument. I may not have communicated clearly... I wasn't saying that a 3/4 ton or 1-ton or whatever-ton truck is a magical solution, only that marginal setups are more likely to lead to marginal experiences. And yes, sometimes a combo that seems good on paper (especially it it involves a long, heavy trailer) will have an inexplicable problem that involves a lot of investigation to track down. The more capacity you have in the bank the less the likelihood for such an occurrence, but there are never any guarantees.

[Halibutman214]

smiller, The worst "white knuckle" experience I've had while towing RV's for the considerable time I've been behind the wheel was in a 3/4 ton superduty turbodiesel towing a 34' Holiday Rambler travel trailer. Trailer weight of 7600 lbs with a GVW of 10000 lbs. Properly set up weight distribution hitch, good tires, good sway control and excellent driving conditions on a new stretch of super highway at 65 MPH. A sudden gust of wind, a semi passing at the same time and I was all over the road, trying to control a trailer that desperately wanted to pass my truck. I got it stopped, quite shaken and not really wanting to drive any further. I've never experienced that kind of situation in a half ton truck. (I'm not suggesting it isn't possible, just that I've never experienced it)

So, to suggest that replacing a half ton truck with a 3/4 ton truck somehow will "improve quiet confidence while eliminating white knuckle driving" and decrease laboring engines is just not what I've found to be the situation. A "white knuckle" situation can --and does-- happen in 3/4 ton trucks, in fact, it probably happens regardless of the size of the truck being driven.As for me I didn't take smiller's post anywhere close to what your saying here and not sure I get your point. I've had white knuckle experiences with just about anything I ever drove and my worst was with a VW Bug. When I moved from a 1/2 to a 3/4 ton however it wasn't a "constant", white knuckle experience when towing and in fact it was day and night even after numeruous upgrades to the 1/2. The only thing in my book that will eliminate the reving is a Diesel and that was a day/night difference as well. Happy trails

[rhagfo]

smiller, The worst "white knuckle" experience I've had while towing RV's for the considerable time I've been behind the wheel was in a 3/4 ton superduty turbodiesel towing a 34' Holiday Rambler travel trailer. Trailer weight of 7600 lbs with a GVW of 10000 lbs. Properly set up weight distribution hitch, good tires, good sway control and excellent driving conditions on a new stretch of super highway at 65 MPH. A sudden gust of wind, a semi passing at the same time and I was all over the road, trying to control a trailer that desperately wanted to pass my truck. I got it stopped, quite shaken and not really wanting to drive any further. I've never experienced that kind of situation in a half ton truck. (I'm not suggesting it isn't possible, just that I've never experienced it)

So, to suggest that replacing a half ton truck with a 3/4 ton truck somehow will "improve quiet confidence while eliminating white knuckle driving" and decrease laboring engines is just not what I've found to be the situation. A "white knuckle" situation can --and does-- happen in 3/4 ton trucks, in fact, it probably happens regardless of the size of the truck being driven.

As for me I didn't take smiller's post anywhere close to what your saying here and not sure I get your point. I've had white knuckle experiences with just about anything I ever drove and my worst was with a VW Bug. When I moved from a 1/2 to a 3/4 ton however it wasn't a "constant", white knuckle experience when towing and in fact it was day and night even after numeruous upgrades to the 1/2. The only thing in my book that will eliminate the reving is a Diesel and that was a day/night difference as well. Happy trails


The biggest issues with taking a 1/2 ton to the "Limit" or beyond is that as a rule 1/2 tons are more like "Heavy Duty" Cars, and a 3/4 or 1 ton PU is more like a small big truck.

All 1/2 tons run "semi floating" rear axles where the driving axle is also supporting the payload. If the axle were to break, you will loose the tire and wheel.

Most 3/4 ton and all 1 ton PU use "Full floating" rear axles, this is where the weight of the payload rest on a set of bearings, and all the axles do is just turn the wheels, if you break an axle you just stop moving nothing falls off. These have much more weight carrying capacity.

There are some light duty 3/4 ton PU that still run 6 lug semi floating axles, I tend to stay away from those.

If you stay with in the load margins a 1/2 ton will tow a correctly sized trailer just fine and safely, I have always felt more secure in a 3/4 ton, with a camper or trailer.

[JRTJH]

Let's wait and see what the experts at TL have to say about towing with a half ton.

You know, I wonder if the Wright brothers ran up against this much "it'll never work" "it won't get off the ground" "Stick to the tried and true" "Horses don't break down" "that contraption has bicycle parts, it's too light to be safe"

Everyone is entitled to your "OPINION" but that doesn't necessarily mean that the engineers will agree with your "user experience" as the only valid means of reliability. Things change in the process of product improvement. What was true last year, last month yesterday may well be invalid today. Half tons are not what they were 10 years ago, so let's just wait and see what the outcome of the TL test reveals.

[azlee56]

Ha, glad you said that. I tell my BF what is said here or there and what I have asked and most times he is happy that I research stuff and read, but he told me sometimes he wished I didn't cause then I will worry...or he says "don't believe everything you read" lol. I do know that! Depends on so much and when we aren't looking at the stuff/problems and are only reading a iffy detail of it, then the input can be right on or not (if the wrong stuff wasn't detailed).

I do enjoy this place though, although sometimes I am afraid to ask questions. I can't wait to go on a long trip and post a couple of pictures. :D:thewave:

[JRTJH]

azlee56

There seems to be a mentality (for some) of "I've always done it this way, it works, so it's the only way" Others have a mindset of "It won't work and I'm not willing to reconsider" Still others truly believe "If it's not the BIGGEST, it's not big enough"

Thankfully, most people are reasonable enough to at least listen to the engineers and experts when there is differing data.

Several years ago, the major RV manufacturers were producing small fifth wheels in the 5000 lb/750lb pin weight class. Many of them were perfectly suited for half ton towing. Trucks are now heavier, bigger, engineered to carry more and pull more. It's only reasonable to expect that fifth wheel towing with half tons will evolve. How much is too much? Hopefully this test with TL will lend some more perspective and shed light on how to do it better and safer. However, there always is the possibility that they will find that Fox to be too much for their tow vehicle. It is right on the edge if not slightly over. Time will tell, as the test progresses, whether it is too much trailer or not. Thankfully we live in a place where we can all agree to disagree.

[azlee56]

I have always been good at being at peace with people disagreeing with me. Talking about the weight of things and pulling, a few years ago a group wanted me to go camping with them and I have a buick century and they told me to buy a trailer and pull it with that. I thought 'you all are crazy!' that would be something like a teardrop bed or something.

I wasn't going to be convinced that was safe, no wayyyyyy. lol

[azlee56]

I do have to admit when I was reading about what can happen if a semi passes you and you have a cross wind at the same moment made me catch my breath. I hate cross winds! (specially in a suburban). I am suppose to pull this thing for the first time in June, and may back out of it yet.

[rhagfo]

Let's wait and see what the experts at TL have to say about towing with a half ton.

You know, I wonder if the Wright brothers ran up against this much "it'll never work" "it won't get off the ground" "Stick to the tried and true" "Horses don't break down" "that contraption has bicycle parts, it's too light to be safe"

Everyone is entitled to your "OPINION" but that doesn't necessarily mean that the engineers will agree with your "user experience" as the only valid means of reliability. Things change in the process of product improvement. What was true last year, last month yesterday may well be invalid today. Half tons are not what they were 10 years ago, so let's just wait and see what the outcome of the TL test reveals.

Ha, glad you said that. I tell my BF what is said here or there and what I have asked and most times he is happy that I research stuff and read, but he told me sometimes he wished I didn't cause then I will worry...or he says "don't believe everything you read" lol. I do know that! Depends on so much and when we aren't looking at the stuff/problems and are only reading a iffy detail of it, then the input can be right on or not (if the wrong stuff wasn't detailed).

I do enjoy this place though, although sometimes I am afraid to ask questions. I can wait to go on a long trip and post a couple of pictures. :D:thewave:

JRTJH, There are many that safely tow a 5er with a F150, Ram 1500, or Chevy 1500 or any other 1/2 ton TV. the important part is to not push the limits. Many 1/2 ton trucks now days have close to or at 10,000# tow ratings. These can easily pull 8,K to 8.5k loads, and up to 10K just working harder.

What i am saying that once the Payload or CGVW are exceeded the risk are greater with a 1/2 ton compared to a 3/4 or 1 ton truck.

[smiller]

What I am saying that once the Payload or CGVW are exceeded the risk are greater with a 1/2 ton compared to a 3/4 or 1 ton truck.
I think it's true that people naturally tend to 'creep up' in size/weight when selecting an RV and so most of us end near the maximum of our tow vehicle's capacity, and that the 2500/3500-class trucks perform much better when run this way than a light-duty pickup.

[JRTJH]

JRTJH, There are many that safely tow a 5er with a F150, Ram 1500, or Chevy 1500 or any other 1/2 ton TV. the important part is to not push the limits. Many 1/2 ton trucks now days have close to or at 10,000# tow ratings. These can easily pull 8,K to 8.5k loads, and up to 10K just working harder.

What i am saying that once the Payload or CGVW are exceeded the risk are greater with a 1/2 ton compared to a 3/4 or 1 ton truck.

Russ, I completely agree with your observations. If you check my signature block, you'll see that I tow with an F150. I've carefully, Very VERY carefully looked at it from every angle I can imagine and I'm convinced there is no difference (other than pin weight) between towing 7200 lbs of bumper hitch trailer and 7200 lbs of fifth wheel. And, as long as the pin weight is within the limits of the truck's GVW, then the only "downside" I can see is the "emblem envy" (for lack of a better term) that some people seem to have when it comes to the numbers 2 or 3 .... Just sayin'...

I can't however wrap my head around your logic regarding safety between the two. To overload an an F250 by 20% can't be "safer" than overloading an F150 by 20%. Both have surpassed the engineering design limits by 20% and are potentially equally unsafe in that condition.

[smiller]

I don't think it's a safety issue because if you operate within the manufacturer's limits then you're probably going to be reasonably safe. It's just that 1500 and 2500/3500-class trucks tend to get used for different purposes and the manufacturers know it. The 1/2-ton pickup has been immensely popular and has been a good seller for many years but I'd hazard to say that while some of these are worked hard most end up doing primarily passenger duty or occasionally haul light loads. The HD pickups on the other hand are usually bought specifically to work... either for a commercial purpose or to tow an RV or heavy trailer (boat/horse/etc.) of some sort, in other words they are built knowing that they will likely be worked up to their limit and thus endure a very different life than the typical 1/2-ton truck. I know I sure wouldn't own a 2500/3500 if I wasn't going to tow with it, they're more expensive, get worse fuel mileage, and aren't a whole lot of fun to drive. They're built to work hard and as a result often end up performing better in that role.

[rhagfo]

:confused:
I sure hope the Max towing specs for your F150 make more sense than those for my 01 Dodge 2500 Cummins, it has a rather large range.
Based on the owners manual the GCWR can be as low as 16,000# to a high of 21,500# So we have a 5,500# difference based on Transmission, axle ratio, and if is was a SO HO engine.
Where is gets interesting is a 2WD standard cab, Long bed with a 5 speed and either a 3.55 OR 4.10 diff have a 20,000# GCWR, max trailer 14,150#.

The same truck in a 4X4 has the same GCWR of 20,000#, but the trailer drops to 13,700#, about the extra weight of the front drive axle and transfer case, that makes sense.

Now make that truck a Quad cab (extended cab with suicide doors) the GCWR drops to 16,000# and max trailer to 9,300. That makes no since, and really points out that these numbers, other than the Max are some what arbitrary!

[LC Hauler]

I just purchased a 33ft fifth wheel and am towing it with a 2011 Dodge Ram 1500, 6.5ft box with trailering package. I contacted Keystone directly to inquire about the towing capacity after our salesperson showed us the unit and stated it was built for 1/2tons specifically.

I gave them the specs of the truck and they said the trailer would be perfect for the truck and to expect a bit of sag. We loaded the trailer at the dealership and noted a bit of sag, not a major amount as many people were expecting. I did Purchase a bag kit which should help with the sag and but the trailer did look level and the 1hr 1/2 long drive home was fine at 120kms/hr on the highway.

you would be surprised to find what rv builders are doing to open up a bigger market to 1/2 ton owners. We were almost closing the deal on a 31ft bumper pull from another rv dealer before we saw the fifth wheel.

[rhagfo]

I just purchased a 33ft fifth wheel and am towing it with a 2011 Dodge Ram 1500, 6.5ft box with trailering package. I contact Keystone directly to inquire about the towing capacity after our salesperson showed us the unit and stated it was built for 1/2tons specifically.

I gave them the specs of the truck and they said the trailer would be perfect for the truck and to expect a bit of sag. We loaded the trailer at the dealership and noted a bit of sag, not a major amount as many people were expecting. I did Purchase a bag kit which should help with the sag and but the trailer did look level and the 1hr 1/2 long drive home was fine at 120kms/hr on the highway.

you would be surprised to find what rv builders are doing to open up a bigger market to 1/2 ton owners. We were almost closing the deal on a 31ft bumper pull from another rv dealer before we saw the fifth wheel.

Well I would hope you don't have a major amount of sag with an empty trailer, and driving close to 75 mph, is a little insane.

Lets see how it weighs out once you get the "normal stuff" loaded in it you, DW, and the kids.

Looks like a crew cab, so looks lie you are close on several counts.
Crew cab

GVWR: 6,800 pounds (4x2 and 4x4) Payload: 1,650-1,690 pounds* (4x2), 1,430-1,470 pounds* (4x4)
4x2 maximum towing capacity: 6,150-7,200 pounds* (4.7-liter V-8), 5,700-10,200 pounds* (5.7-liter V-8)
4x4 maximum towing capacity: 5,950-7,000 pounds* (4.7-liter V-8), 7,400-9,950 pounds* (5.7-liter V-8)

Sorry but even with an ultra light, you are pushing the limits.

The part of a 1/2 ton and 5th wheels is the load on the rear axle, what is the load range of you tires, and max load on the rear axle?

[Festus2]

LC Hauler wrote -
".....the 1 1/2 hour drive home was fine at 120 kph..." :eek:

This works out to 74.5 mph. I hope the rest of your driving is on an isolated stretch of prairie road, you are alone in the truck and the only one on the highway! Whether you're towing with a 1/2 T, 3/4T or 1T, it is just way too fast. :dizzy:

[Big Boy w/ Big Toys]

A good first post for me. How long will it be before we see the Feds stop this insanity of big trailer, little truck syndrome.

People will continue to pull something way more then they should until Johnny Law gets them. I seen an older F250 (90's) pulling a mobile home (yes mobile home). I estimated it at 57 feet long and 10 feet wide. No signs, no chase vehicles, no trailer brakes, no mirror extensions, on the bumper of the truck. Local PD stopped him, DOT showed up and impounded everything. I heard after pleading out he walked away with forfeit of all equipment and $5000 in fines.

So it is just a matter of time before someone has an accident, hurts someone and sues the manufacturers, dealers and who every else can be included to get the Feds to stop this insanity.

Remember all the BS after Katrina and all those guys that were transporters moving things under "emergency conditions". Just a matter of time. Just a matter of time.

Trailer Life may make themselves liable by printing an article that endorses this practice.

[LC Hauler]

LC Hauler wrote -
".....the 1 1/2 hour drive home was fine at 120 kph..." :eek:

This works out to 74.5 mph. I hope the rest of your driving is on an isolated stretch of prairie road, you are alone in the truck and the only one on the highway! Whether you're towing with a 1/2 T, 3/4T or 1T, it is just way too fast. :dizzy:

you guys are forgetting that here in alberta we our posted speed limit is 110kms/hr on our major highways, 5-10kms more isn't rocket speed here folks, and we aren't climbing any hills, it's pretty much all flat highways in our parts, so I'm not being some hot rod.

the truck actually is a quad cab, not a crew cab with a 6.5box, i also had the truck built through dodge at the Brampton (Ont.) plant with a few upgrades to the suspension as I pull a 19ft deck trailer with it normally.

[SAD]

, i also had the truck built through dodge at the Brampton (Ont.) plant with a few upgrades to the suspension....

Interested. Please elaborate.

[fla-gypsy]

you guys are forgetting that here in alberta we our posted speed limit is 110kms/hr on our major highways, 5-10kms more isn't rocket speed here folks, and we aren't climbing any hills, it's pretty much all flat highways in our parts, so I'm not being some hot rod.

the truck actually is a quad cab, not a crew cab with a 6.5box, i also had the truck built through dodge at the Brampton (Ont.) plant with a few upgrades to the suspension as I pull a 19ft deck trailer with it normally.

What you failed to observe is that the tires on the that rolling house are only rated for 65 mph, SLOW DOWN

[rhagfo]

......... i also had the truck built through dodge at the Brampton (Ont.) plant with a few upgrades to the suspension as I pull a 19ft deck trailer with it normally.

Well the way I look at it is is still a 1/2 ton truck, 5 lug wheels, 1/2 ton tires (what rating), 1/2 ton frame, semi floating 1/2 ton rear axle, and pushing the weight limits. Then driving an what most on this site would consider an dangerous speed.

There are many who tow safely with 1/2 ton trucks, as they buy a trailer that safely fits within the Payload and tow capacity of the TV!

Why go to the effort of having the "Suspension Upgraded" just buy a 3/4 ton truck to start with.

[Festus2]

LC Hauler -
Having spent a bit of time on Alberta highways, I am aware of your higher posted speed limits and how flat and straight many of your roads are. Having said that, driving down a freeway, whether it be in Alberta or Alabama, uphill, downhill or on the flats at 120 kph or almost 75 mph pulling an RV is, IMHO, dangerous.
If the posted speed limit was for example, 130 kph (81 mph) -- 10 kph over what it is now, would you be driving at 140 kph -- just a few "klicks" over? What's to get excited about?
Mention has already been made about your tires but that poster is correct when he stated that you are driving beyond the speed rating of your tires. Something else to think about. And I haven't even mentioned the gas mileage issue yet with driving at that speed. Yes, I know, Alberta gas is cheaper.
Wouldn't it be easier and safer just to slow down?

[Jim & Kay]

you guys are forgetting that here in alberta we our posted speed limit is 110kms/hr on our major highways, 5-10kms more isn't rocket speed here folks, and we aren't climbing any hills, it's pretty much all flat highways in our parts, so I'm not being some hot rod.

the truck actually is a quad cab, not a crew cab with a 6.5box, i also had the truck built through dodge at the Brampton (Ont.) plant with a few upgrades to the suspension as I pull a 19ft deck trailer with it normally.

The posted speed limit should not and does not dictate for me the speed I drive when towing. When traveling out West some speed limits were posted at 75MPH but IMHO, no one should ever tow at that speed, regardless of the TV or RV. It is an accident waiting to happen, you are not only putting your life, your families lives, and other unfortunate peoples lives, who happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time! I know from experience, I was driving on I 64E outside of St Louis, MO, in a 35' motorhome - towing a Jeep Liberty - driving at 60 MPH - had a tire blow out and it was sure a white knuckle experience:eek: keeping it under control and out of harms way for my passengers and the others on the highway. Had no one passing me at the time, which saved being involved in an accident because with the blown tire, it took both lanes to get it under control but at 75MPH I would have been SOL. THINK

[jje1960]

smiller, The worst "white knuckle" experience I've had while towing RV's for the considerable time I've been behind the wheel was in a 3/4 ton superduty turbodiesel towing a 34' Holiday Rambler travel trailer. Trailer weight of 7600 lbs with a GVW of 10000 lbs. Properly set up weight distribution hitch, good tires, good sway control and excellent driving conditions on a new stretch of super highway at 65 MPH. A sudden gust of wind, a semi passing at the same time and I was all over the road, trying to control a trailer that desperately wanted to pass my truck. I got it stopped, quite shaken and not really wanting to drive any further. I've never experienced that kind of situation in a half ton truck. (I'm not suggesting it isn't possible, just that I've never experienced it)

So, to suggest that replacing a half ton truck with a 3/4 ton truck somehow will "improve quiet confidence while eliminating white knuckle driving" and decrease laboring engines is just not what I've found to be the situation. A "white knuckle" situation can --and does-- happen in 3/4 ton trucks, in fact, it probably happens regardless of the size of the truck being driven.

Last year we started to 'Dolphin' on a bridge over the James River on Rt 95. Mostly my fault for not getting the cruise control off fast enough, have had issues on this stretch of road before.... Anyway, a one ton dually can get pretty out of shape like anything else with the 'perfect storm' of conditions....

[mjhaa43]

HI I HAVE A F150 2011 ECOBOOST WE GO ALL OVER WITH R 327RES I GET 12.5 WITH CAMPER ON (tx)

[f6bits]

In California, regardless of posted speed limits, the maximum speed for Trucks and Cars w/trailers is 55 (VC Sec. 22406).

[rhagfo]

HI I HAVE A F150 2011 ECOBOOST WE GO ALL OVER WITH R 327RES I GET 12.5 WITH CAMPER ON (tx)

Here is another one that thinks is is safe to haul a 12,000# 5er with a 1/2 ton. Must be one heck of a 1/2 ton as that is more than I haul with my 3/4 ton Diesel! Don't know what your payload is, but even if it is 2,000# you are almost there with pin (DRY) and hitch!

327RES Specifications (2011)
Shipping Weight 10154
Carrying Capacity 1791
Hitch 1545
Length 36' 5
Width 8'
Height 12'
Fresh Water 60
Waste Water 38
Gray Water 76

[jje1960]

HI I HAVE A F150 2011 ECOBOOST WE GO ALL OVER WITH R 327RES I GET 12.5 WITH CAMPER ON (tx)

Dude, are you serious or winding us up? Your doing this with an F150?

327RES Specifications
Shipping Weight 10160
Carrying Capacity 1785
Hitch 1545
Length 36' 5"
Width 8'
Height 12'
Fresh Water 60
Waste Water 38
Gray Water 76

Just me, however I think this is pretty over the top, most likely illegal and not what I would subject my family (or anyone else) to with spec's. That unit is something that my F350 would be pulling "WE GO ALL OVER WITH R 327RES I GET 12.5 WITH CAMPER ON..." Just me, but I'd be worrying more about safety than fuel mileage.

[f6bits]

His photo gallery shows his setup. Payload capacity looks to be about 1900 lbs, so he’s cutting it close. Just about as close as he is with the towing capacity.

[rhagfo]

His photo gallery shows his setup. Payload capacity looks to be about 1900 lbs, so he’s cutting it close. Just about as close as he is with the towing capacity.

Well lets see
Payload 1,900 #

Pin 1,545#
Driver 175#
DW 100#

That leaves 80# Dry!

Well at least the F150 has 6 lug wheels!

[SteveC7010]

Pin 1,545#

And we all know that the actual pin is always heavier (usually by 15% to 25%) than manufacturer's spec which is a dry pin weight.

That leaves 80# Dry!

More likely it is over by several hundred or more.

Well at least the F150 has 6 lug wheels!

Noticed that yesterday. A friend was showing off his new F150 and the 6 lug wheels really caught my eye. Well done, Ford!

[f6bits]

The F150 HD package has 7-lug wheels.

[JRTJH]

The F150 HD package has 7-lug wheels.

7 lug 17" wheels. None of the 18" or 20" 6 lug wheels on the workhorse F150 (heavy duty payload package) GM has also had 6 lug wheels on their half ton "HD" trucks for a number of years. Ford has had 6 lug wheels since at least 2005.

As for towing a 327RES with an F150. I tow with a properly equipped F150 and I feel I'm at my max "safe load" with a 26' Springdale 242. I balked at the 253 which was only 800 lbs more total weight because I felt it was pushing my truck a bit more than I felt comfortable. I couldn't imagine feeling "comfortable" towing an extra 10' and almost 5000 lbs more than I currently tow....

All I can say is WOW, that's a load for any 3/4 ton truck, I'd never try it with my equipment !!!

[LC Hauler]

wow, what a great warm welcome from this group, gees if I would have known I was going to start a lynch mob, being canadian and friendly I would have supplied the pitch forks and torches, heck I'd even supply the band wagon to jump on, but I'm too afraid now that with everyone on board I'd be exceeding my weight limits.

bottom line here guys is in the past 5yrs, trucks in general have come leaps and bounds, with more towing capacity, pulling power etc...... and trailer manufactures are doing the same with lighter weight trailers. I'm not boasting about my unit, just excited I've come from a tent trailer to a full unit to share with my family.

if you feel that strongly that I'm out to kill everyone on the roads, well stay off them then when i come through, hell I'm so irrespnsible I may as well tow that damn thing with the propane tanks open and the dump tank cracked wide open.... woohoooooo

really guys?? can't we all just get along and enjoy the passion for the great outdoors? frankly those that welcomed me in the newbie section, thank you, those that just want to pick me and my unit apart, I think another site less stuffy in here would be more suited for me.

[rhagfo]

Well I would hope you don't have a major amount of sag with an empty trailer, and driving close to 75 mph, is a little insane.

Lets see how it weighs out once you get the "normal stuff" loaded in it you, DW, and the kids.

Looks like a crew cab, so looks lie you are close on several counts.
Crew cab

GVWR: 6,800 pounds (4x2 and 4x4) Payload: 1,650-1,690 pounds* (4x2), 1,430-1,470 pounds* (4x4)
4x2 maximum towing capacity: 6,150-7,200 pounds* (4.7-liter V-8), 5,700-10,200 pounds* (5.7-liter V-8)
4x4 maximum towing capacity: 5,950-7,000 pounds* (4.7-liter V-8), 7,400-9,950 pounds* (5.7-liter V-8)

Sorry but even with an ultra light, you are pushing the limits.

The part of a 1/2 ton and 5th wheels is the load on the rear axle, what is the load range of you tires, and max load on the rear axle?

So this is the 1st post I made, I did forget to state nice looking trailer, but I still stand by my concerns about the safety of the TV and the trailer.

In a thread under 5th Wheels you posted the specs for your truck.

I can appreciate the concerns from everyone here, trust me I spent 2 days online, at my dodge dealership and on the phones with several rv dealerships, Keystone directly and even had my brother (D.O.T officer) do homework before we committed to this thing, i would have never put myself, nor anyone else in any danger nor risk a new 2011 Dodge Ram truck over a fifth wheel.

The other thing to keep in mind is the truck is an 11', which means it has the coil independent suspension,

here are the ACTUAL specs on my truck direct from Dodge:

2011 Quad Cab 4x4 - SPORT
Tire: P275/60R20
Engine: 5.7L V8 Hemi (EZH)
Transmission Type: A5
Transmission: 545RFE (DGQ) 5 SPD AUTO
Axle Ratio: 3.92
GVWR: 7,200
Payload: 1,610

Base Weight:
Total:5,343
(Front:3,107)
(Rear: 2,235)

GAWR
(Front: 3,900)
(Rear: 3,900)

GCWR: 15,500

MAX TRAILER: 11,950

now with everything there, i have gone further to ensure the saftey of my family and my rig, I have a Total Load Control system being installed this week as well.

So some of the math doesn't add up!
MAX GCWR = 15,500 - Base weight of 5,343 = 10,157 this is your MAX trailer (this is assumed this is a scaled weight of the base truck). Then that you need to subtract weight of you, DW, children, fuel, and hitch. You stated that passengers weighed a total of 267 lbs, hitch weighs about 150 lbs, and 20 gallons of gas weighs 121.43 lbs. (6.073 lbs per gallon), so that takes the Max trailer down to 9,619 lbs. Take those and the DRY pin weighs 1,120 lbs. so pay load is at least 1,658 lbs. Stated payload is 1,610 lbs.

Assuming that all of the pin and all of the fuel weight is on the rear axle, you have not exceeded the max rating of the axle.

All I know is I would not be driving 75 mph, on five lug wheels, with P rated tires, with that load.

We just want to keep you safe.

[jje1960]

wow, what a great warm welcome from this group, gees if I would have known I was going to start a lynch mob, being canadian and friendly I would have supplied the pitch forks and torches, heck I'd even supply the band wagon to jump on, but I'm too afraid now that with everyone on board I'd be exceeding my weight limits.

bottom line here guys is in the past 5yrs, trucks in general have come leaps and bounds, with more towing capacity, pulling power etc...... and trailer manufactures are doing the same with lighter weight trailers. I'm not boasting about my unit, just excited I've come from a tent trailer to a full unit to share with my family.

if you feel that strongly that I'm out to kill everyone on the roads, well stay off them then when i come through, hell I'm so irrespnsible I may as well tow that damn thing with the propane tanks open and the dump tank cracked wide open.... woohoooooo

really guys?? can't we all just get along and enjoy the passion for the great outdoors? frankly those that welcomed me in the newbie section, thank you, those that just want to pick me and my unit apart, I think another site less stuffy in here would be more suited for me.

Well, just ones perspective (mine) however wow....., your pretty defensive here. Most have just plain read the numbers, weighed these against experience, laws and various reg's, that simple. If the advise is passionate, there is a reason. Over rated towing is a problem, legal and otherwise. What would you expect the forum to respond? Would you prefer an endless stream of "heck don't worry about it", "it's ok, limits, reg's, law's are made to be broken..." "Go for it dude!" Not sure what you expect when you post information that is going to provoke responses from experience and well, common sense. Just a thought.... How about.... "Wow, real eye-opener, thanks for your experience, maybe time to rethink our setup, thanks again!"

[cmssorrell]

Well, just ones perspective (mine) however wow....., your pretty defensive here. Most have just plain read the numbers, weighed these against experience, laws and various reg's, that simple. If the advise is passionate, there is a reason. Over rated towing is a problem, legal and otherwise. What would you expect the forum to respond? Would you prefer an endless stream of "heck don't worry about it", "it's ok, limits, reg's, law's are made to be broken..." "Go for it dude!" Not sure what you expect when you post information that is going to provoke responses from experience and well, common sense. Just a thought.... How about.... "Wow, real eye-opener, thanks for your experience, maybe time to rethink our setup, thanks again!"

Amen brother!!

Mark

[SteveC7010]

One of the more troubling aspects to all of this is the RV dealers. Several years ago, I was at a major RV show looking at new rigs. We were in one that weighed well over 11K# dry. I commented to the salesman that my truck would not be a good tow vehicle. The salesman wanted to know why. I told him that it is rated to pull a 12K trailer and that this model is too heavy. He insisted that it was not. I pointed out that the GVWR needs to be considered, not the dry weight. His reply was that no one carries 1,100# of stuff with them. I replied that most of us carry a lot more than that and left.

When we bought the Cougar, the salesman would not talk about GVWR insisting that dry weight was all that they considered. Luckily, I do my own math on this kind of thing. That was almost a deal breaker.

Why is it so difficult to believe that clothing, food, camping gear, personal items, firewood, spare propane tanks, ez-up shelters, bikes, canoes and kayaks, and all the other stuff we all take with us for two weeks in the mountains or at the shore can actually weigh something?

Sales people will tell us anything to make the sale. They'll swear that the pin weight is actually a lot less. They will tell you that whatever truck you own is more adequate for the trailer you want.

[SAD]

One of the more troubling aspects to all of this is the RV dealers. Several years ago, I was at a major RV show looking at new rigs. We were in one that weighed well over 11K# dry. I commented to the salesman that my truck would not be a good tow vehicle. The salesman wanted to know why. I told him that it is rated to pull a 12K trailer and that this model is too heavy. He insisted that it was not. I pointed out that the GVWR needs to be considered, not the dry weight. His reply was that no one carries 1,100# of stuff with them. I replied that most of us carry a lot more than that and left.

When we bought the Cougar, the salesman would not talk about GVWR insisting that dry weight was all that they considered. Luckily, I do my own math on this kind of thing. That was almost a deal breaker.

Why is it so difficult to believe that clothing, food, camping gear, personal items, firewood, spare propane tanks, ez-up shelters, bikes, canoes and kayaks, and all the other stuff we all take with us for two weeks in the mountains or at the shore can actually weigh something?

Sales people will tell us anything to make the sale. They'll swear that the pin weight is actually a lot less. They will tell you that whatever truck you own is more adequate for the trailer you want.

We should start a "dry/curb weight vs scale weight" thread showing how different (or similar) these weight vary from how we as consumers option out and pack our rigs.

[Festus2]

Another and equally troubling aspect to this is Keystone and other RV manufacturers who boast that this or that model is "1/2T towable" and stick a sign on it to let everyone know that it is. I would suspect that Keystone and others know full well that the majority of people who are looking for an RV already own a 1/2T and probably an F150, the best selling pickup in NA. And what weight do they use to justify their claim? You bet, the dry weight.

So here we have a potential buyer who already has a 1/2 truck and is being told by either Keystone, the dealer or both that this RV will work for you! A day later, we have a new, very pleased and proud owner driving off in his F150 with RV in tow.

Don't get me wrong. There are some TT's and 5ths that can be safely towed with a 1/2 T - Ford, GMC. Dodge or Toyota. The buyer has to do his/her own homework and research and essentially forget about what the dealer or Keystone is telling you.

Often, many potential buyers turn to forums such as ours to ask questions and get input from fellow RVers. Some have already made up their minds and hear but don't listen to the any advice given by members. Others will weigh the forum advice and make their own decision based on their own research. A few will rely totally on what advice they find here.

In this particular case, the member had his truck and his 5th wheel and, as was pointed out, volunteered other information about his setup which incidentally included his speed while on a 1 1/2 hr trip home. Many members thought that his stated speed (120 kph/75 mph) was excessive and dangerous and said so. His statement did provoke a response from a number of members, including myself, which basically said, "Slow down." I think that most people would consider towing at 75 mph to be hazardous. I would expect that someone who indicated that safety is a priority would have recognized this and should not have been surprised by the responses.

Other members commented about his combination as being close to or pushing the limits, cutting it close, or overloaded. All of these comments were made, I believe, with everyone's safety - including the poster and his family - in mind. They were not made, IMHO, with the intent of jumping all over a new member.

Hopefully we can, as was mentioned, "enjoy the great outdoors".

[rhagfo]

We should start a "dry/curb weight vs scale weight" thread showing how different (or similar) these weight vary from how we as consumers option out and pack our rigs.

Do you really expect us to unload the 3,000# of stuff out of our second homes so we can find the "Dry" weight??? LOL!

I may be tempted later this summer as the "Factory Specs" on my 05 Copper Canyon 293 FWSLS state the length as 31' 11" and as measured by DW and myself was more like 33' 6".

I think that if anyone that has had their rig more than one season and have gone out about six times, emptied their rig, they would be amazed at what they are hauling extra!
:confused:

[SAD]

Do you really expect us to unload the 3,000# of stuff out of our second homes so we can find the "Dry" weight??? LOL!


No. I mean comparing the published dry weight to how they're loaded when we actually use them. :)

[rhagfo]

No. I mean comparing the published dry weight to how they're loaded when we actually use them. :)

Well that makes it a whole bunch easier. :thumbsup:

We are still adding stuff, I would hate to take it all out!

I thought you were looking for what the "real" dry weight of the trailer was compared to the book dry weight.:banghead:

[f6bits]

I may be tempted later this summer as the "Factory Specs" on my 05 Copper Canyon 293 FWSLS state the length as 31' 11" and as measured by DW and myself was more like 33' 6".

It’s nice when you brag to your wife how long it is only to have her help you measure it and find out it’s even longer.;)

[2011 keystone]

:surprise:It’s nice when you brag to your wife how long it is only to have her help you measure it and find out it’s even longer.;)

:surprise: LOL

[rhagfo]

.......

Bottom line here guys is in the past 5yrs, trucks in general have come leaps and bounds, with more towing capacity, pulling power etc...... and trailer manufactures are doing the same with lighter weight trailers. I'm not boasting about my unit, just excited I've come from a tent trailer to a full unit to share with my family.

..........

LC Hauler Trust me I like Canadians, but your statement got me thinking!....

How did they do it?

Well a little comparison between your 2011 1/2 ton Hemi and my 2001 3/4 ton Cummins. Some of these numbers surprised me.

This is long and has a lot of figures, but has some interesting facts. I believe that yesterday's and today's load ratings have/had more to do with HP than component capacity.

2011 Ram 1500 Hemi
Tire: P275/60R20: Load rating 2,601 lbs.
Engine: 5.7L V8 Hemi (EZH): Power (SAE): 390 hp @ 5,600 rpm; 407 ft lb of torque @ 4,000 rpm

Transmission Type: A5
Transmission: 545RFE (DGQ) 5 SPD AUTO
Axle Ratio: 3.92
GVWR: 7,200 - 5,343 = 1857 - 150 (driver) = 1,707 (Payload)
Payload: 1,610 ??

Base Weight: (is this actual scaled weight)?
Total:5,343
(Front:3,107)
(Rear: 2,235)

GAWR
(Front: 3,900)
(Rear: 3,900); 3,900 - 2,235 = 1,665 (Max load on rear axle before axle Over Load)

3,900 + 3,900 = 7,800 7,200/7,800 = 92.3% of total max axle load.
Total max axle divided by stated GVWR = percentage of axle max.

GCWR: 15,500: 15,500 - 5,493 (truck and driver) = 10,700 max trailer
GCWR-GVW = Max Trailer

MAX TRAILER: 11,950 ???


2001 Dodge Ram 2500 Cummins Quad Cab With Tow and Camper packages

Tire: LT 265/75 16 E: Load rating 3,415 lbs.
Engine: 5.9L I6 Cummins: Power (SAE): 235 hp @ 2700 rpm; 460 lb-ft (from 1600 to 2700 rpm)
The engine has a small chip " Power Puck" so I now have about 285 HP and 510 lb-ft of torque.

Transmission Type: NV4500
Transmission: NV4500 5 speed manual
Axle Ratio: 3.55
GVWR: 8,800 - 7,000 = 1,800 With driver (Payload)
Payload: Searched could not find a "stated Payload" 1,800 actual caculated.

Base Weight: (This actual scaled weight, with driver 200#)
Total:7,000
(Front:4,250)
(Rear: 2,750)

GAWR
(Front: 5,200)
(Rear: 6,080): 6,080 - 2,750 = 3,330 (Max load on rear axle before axle Over Load)
5,200+ 6,080 = 11,280 8,800/11,280 = 78.0% of total max axle load.
Total max axle divided by stated GVWR = percentage of axle max.

This is where it get interesting, according to the owners manual!
2500 Quad cab 4X4 GCWR = 16,000#
2500 Reg Cab 4X4 GCWR = 20,000# ??? The added weight of the Quad Cab should come off Max trailer not GCWR.

GCWR: 16,00 16,000 - 7,000 (truck and driver) = 9,000 max trailer
GCWR: 20,000 20,000 - 7,000 (truck and driver) = 13,000 max trailer

So when I scaled on the 1st two nigher, with 3 adults, 2 small dogs, and too much food in the refer, and about 95% of our "stuff" these are my scale weights.

Front axle 4,650#: (4,650/5,200 = 89% of max axle rating)(4,650/6,830 = 68% of max tire rating) (Darn heavy Cummins!)
Rear axle 5,050#: (5,050/6,080 = 83 % of max axle rating)(5,050/6,830 = 74% of max tire rating)
Total Truck 9,700#
Trailer axles 8,400 #
GCVW 18,100#

So am I over loaded by the book? Yes
Are my axles overloaded? NO
Are my tires over loaded? NO
If I used the 92.3% of max axle weight the GVW could be 10,400#, and I still would not be exceeding the max load on the tires.

I tow this rig between 55 and 60 based on the speed limit, on the flat if not paying attention to speed and going with the flow a bit, it will easily creep up to 70 (too easily!), I can pull most grades in the Oregon Coast range at 60 mph which is 5 over the limit (I don't like holding up traffic, and it is a sweet spot for RPM). I can also accelerate to the speed limit going up those grades. I will continue to go with this combination, as it feels solid and stable. When we picked it up our tow home was 250 miles, in less than favorable weather, and I had no issues.

So now you can pick on the Yank. :D

[LittleJoe]

What DOT cares about is that no axle in combination is overloaded, as well as no tires are over there max weight carrying capacity. If these are all good and you are pulling an _RV_...... then there will be no issues, as far as weight goes.

The well laid out numbers are indeed something to ponder.

The HEMI as most V8(newer) gas motors needs to REV to get anywhere near its torque peak. It will not hurt them, that how they are built.

The beauty of the Ford V6 turbo is that it has the torque output of a V8 (approx 400 ftlb IIRC)but at a much lower(usable) 2400rpm. My hat is begrudgingly :D off to this new engine + powertrain.

[kiwi2000]

SteveC7010 wrote

Sales people will tell us anything to make the sale. They'll swear that the pin weight is actually a lot less. They will tell you that whatever truck you own is more adequate for the trailer you want.

I could not agree more. I actually had my truck salesman state I could add another 1500lbs to the payload and still be safe even though I am at or over the limit now.