Unhappy ending to our first trip

[turbopilot51]

We took our new 3500RE on it's maiden voyage this past weekend. Everything work as it should except with some questions about the digital thermostat and heat pump. As we were packing up I was outside draining tanks and securing items in storage. I then hooked up the black tank flush and turned on the water. In less than five minuets the dw is calling me to come quickly inside. Water was coming under the kitchen pantry and sink area. I shut off the water and began to investigate. I removed the panel behind the breaker panel and noticed water all over the floor and wiring. Since we we would be close to our dealer I called and said I am dropping off the unit. We are now waiting for the dreaded phone call to let us know what the issues are. Since this was our initial outing there was no reason before to try the tank flush.The dw and I are just sick of what damage there may be and who is going to pay for all this!
:(

[Halibutman214]

I would want to see it when they gain access to whatever caused the problem so I could see just where the water got. They should have IMMEDIATELY put driers in. Don't want to scare you but once that water starts to penetrate it can cause major damage that you may not see next week but things seem to have a way of coming apart. This may seem a little overboard but depending how bad it is I would be demanding a new unit. I wish you the best and please let us know what happens.

[geo]

Turbopilot51 -

I am very sorry to hear about your water mishap! This was one of the "problems" I worried about in the past and have posted about. :( I would suspect that the vacuum breaker valve on the tank flush piping failed. We have had some posts concerning this subject and worry.

This vacuum breaker is a plastic fitting that seems to be shoved up and hidden in the wall. On my Alpine, it was located between the toilet closet and the bedroom. The breaker itself is placed higher than the bowl of the toilet. Again, on my Alpine, the piping ran through a drilled hole directly above the transfer switch - so if mine had failed, it would have soaked the transfer switch!

I trust your dealer will be able to fix the problem and the damage and restore your Alpine to "new" condition. I would also recommend to contact Keystone Customer Service directly to discuss this issue.

Ron

[Halibutman214]

Turbopilot51 -

I am very sorry to hear about your water mishap! This was one of the "problems" I worried about in the past and have posted about. :( I would suspect that the vacuum breaker valve on the tank flush piping failed. We have had some posts concerning this subject and worry.
I would also recommend to contact Keystone Customer Service directly to discuss this issue.

RonNot to get off the subject at hand here but looking back on this I see that the issue of the vacuum breaker valve is indeed not a new thing here. Does Keystone know about this? It would seem that with posts as far back as May of 2011 they would have addressed this.
I second the idea that you call Keystone. Let us know what they say.

[Festus2]

Does Keystone know about this? It would seem that with posts as far back as May of 2011 they would have addressed this.
I.

There seems to be some debate about whether or not Keystone monitors this site. You would think that they might since it would be in their best interests to do so. If Keystone is truly interested in getting feedback - positive and negative - about their RV's, they should be paying attention to our posts and trying to address these types of on-going problems that our members are having with certain items of their RV's. They are not isolated, rare occurences.
The best course of action would be, I believe, to contact Keystone directly and bring up these issues. Hopefully, if they receive enough concerns about the configuration and components of the black tank flushing system, they might finally realize that it needs improvement and will correct their mistake.
I wouldn't count on Keystone changing what they do based on any concerns that we discuss on our forum.

[allentx1]

ok, having lived through water leaks and severe mold in our stick house, I can appreciate the fear. However, I have soaked my RV more than once: once my son wanted to see if he could make a stand up swimming pool with the shower glass door... worked, mostly until opened... :(; and when our outdoor shower housing busted and sprayed all over the "behind the panel basement". In both cases, I cleaned up the water and left the areas open to dry out. Haven't seen any residual damage. So my point is, things happen. Don't get discouraged immediately. Like most of us here, you'll start "improving" on the product and eventually, you will be comfortable that there is nothing that could go wrong that you cannot handle. :wave:

[E597283]

I have the blank tank flush attachment on my new Passport 2910BH and the first time I used it there was water all over the bathroom floor. I don't think it does a good job anyways and continue to use the wand that attaches to a hose and goes right down the toilet in to the tank.

[sandy43]

Fortunately I've seen no leaks as yet. How exactly does the black tank flush system work and what does the vacuum breaker valve do? I have this thing and use it and it seems ok. I would like to know more about it. Thanks

[geo]

Fortunately I've seen no leaks as yet. How exactly does the black tank flush system work and what does the vacuum breaker valve do? I have this thing and use it and it seems ok. I would like to know more about it. Thanks

Sandy43 -

Glad you asked that question! :) We have a thread on that subject at:

http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4656&highlight=black+tank

complete with diagram! Actually, it's that darned vacuum breaker that sparks all the worries.

Also, in my post about Installing Tank Heaters, Part1, I have a picture of the black tank flush piping connected to the black tank. Not much to see, but it is there. It is mounted above the valve so as to spray the far part of the tank to rinse the "goodies" down toward the valve and out.

Ron

[blackty]

Mine failed the very first time I used it. Did some research and according to the post, no kidding, "remove dead stink bug from plunger". I thought at least someone has a sense of humor. My intention was to replace the anti siphon with a brass check valve. Had all supplies, removed original valve only to find a dead stink bug lodged in the mechanism. So either the original poster built my camper, or stink bugs really like anti siphon valves. Thought I'd share...Jim

[Comptech]

Ok, so this thread has me concerned as I have yet to use the black water flush system in our new Cougar 330RBK. I will check this when I get home today... I just need to figure out where it might be located on my model. Maybe i will send an email to Keystone and ask them...?

[Donegal Bill]

I just took delivery of my 2012 Raptor 395LEV and took it on a good shakedown trip (2500 miles). One of my concerns was the black tank flush system. I didn't want what happened to you, happen to me. I had the black water valve opened (like the directions said). I hooked up the black water flush system. Turned on the water, and NO extra water was coming out. So I would turn off the water after a few seconds (to avoid a flood in the rig) and close the black water valve, go into the trailer and flush and hold the toilet valve opened...Then go outside to pull valve...and get minimal waste coming out.( I have the clear dump couplings on my waste hoses.
I am concerned that there may be a blockage from the factory..You always hear of the tank "plugs" (from drilling the tanks) being left behind. Hopefully it is a quick fix, but for now, I won't be using the black tank flush system until I have the dealer look at it. The back "black water drain" works fine (2 bathroom unit). Someone from the factory said that the unit may have been used in the lot (some one taking a poop while parked in the lot)..Not sure what it is, but I won't be leaving the black water flush turned on while its unattended....Thank you for the heads up..May I suggest a clear coupling so you can see the sewage coming out?? If it isn't flowing good with flush on, Something probably isn't right..
Good Luck....
Bill

[SteveC7010]

Ok, so this thread has me concerned as I have yet to use the black water flush system in our new Cougar 330RBK. I will check this when I get home today... I just need to figure out where it might be located on my model. Maybe i will send an email to Keystone and ask them...?

It seems pretty common that Keystone locates the vacuum breaker about two feet above the trailer floor in a place that is sort of accessible. It needs to be up that high to work properly. On fivers with forward bathrooms in the elevated section of the trailer, they can usually be found under the sink.

Look for two mostly vertical runs of PEX tubing, side by side.

[Comptech]

Steve, Thanks...
I guess I still don't completely understand why the 5vers have these Atmospheric vacuum beakers... Any trailer I have owned in the past has had vent pipe for the black water tank to allow gasses and such to escape. Usually piped to the roof. So would that not prevent pressure build up and such?

[SteveC7010]

Steve, Thanks...
I guess I still don't completely understand why the 5vers have these Atmospheric vacuum beakers... Any trailer I have owned in the past has had vent pipe for the black water tank to allow gasses and such to escape. Usually piped to the roof. So would that not prevent pressure build up and such?

The vacuum breaker has nothing to do with venting the black water tank. There are already several extensive threads on the topic, but the short of it is that it prevents any back siphoning from the black water tank into the fresh water supply while you're hooked up to it for cleaning. For extensive details, I invite you to look back through the applicable threads.

Any trailer that has the factory installed black water flush system from Keystone will have the vacuum breaker installed in a similar fashion. It is not limited to fivers. I only pointed out that the fivers all seem to have the vacuum breaker located in nearly identical places. I don't know what they do for the TT's, but I am certain that the breakers are there.

All of our trailers still have the 1.5" black ABS vent stacks on each of the black and gray holding tanks.

[Comptech]

So I went home last night and found the Atmospheric vacuum beaker under the bathroom sink tucked way up towards the back of where the sink hits the counter top... hard to find as I was looking for something a bit larger. I ran the flush system to check for leaks and all went well...

[turbopilot51]

It seems pretty common that Keystone locates the vacuum breaker about two feet above the trailer floor in a place that is sort of accessible. It needs to be up that high to work properly. On fivers with forward bathrooms in the elevated section of the trailer, they can usually be found under the sink.

Look for two mostly vertical runs of PEX tubing, side by side.

Does anyone know where the vacuum breaker is on the 3500RE?

[Comptech]

Like Steve has said, it has to be located higher than the most possible black water over flow location, which in most 5ver models is the bathroom and toilet, look under the bathroom sink way in the back. It was obvious for mine as I had several water pipes running into the sink cabinet....

[geo]

Does anyone know where the vacuum breaker is on the 3500RE?

Turbopilot51 -

Since we don't have the same Alpine model, this is just a guess. Based upon the location of your toilet and where your WaterWorks area is probably located, I would say that your waste tanks are probably located in a similar fashion as mine. That would mean that your Black Tank is located in the forward area beneath the storage basement on the port side. So, my guess is that your vacuum breaker is probably located, as others have mentioned, beneath or behind your sink in the bath, or possibly within the wall between your shower and bedroom.

You can probably find it in about 10 minutes. There is a carpeted luan panel immediately behind your WaterWorks area in the storage basement. It probably has about 10 square drive screws holding it in place. Get a #2 square drive screwdriver and just quickly back those screws out. The panel will easily drop forward. If you look behind it, besides a mess of other items, you will see two parallel Pex pipes ascending into the wall area immediately behind and aft of the WaterWorks. One of these Pex pipes will be connected with a flexible hose to the Black Tank Rinse fitting in the WaterWorks. Here's a picture of what mine used to look like to help - the two Pex pipes running next to and above the Iota ATS are the feed and return to the vacuum breaker. The breaker itself is about 3 feet above where the pipes disappear into the wal - basically 6" above the bowl of the toilet.

Ron

[jje1960]

I just took delivery of my 2012 Raptor 395LEV and took it on a good shakedown trip (2500 miles). One of my concerns was the black tank flush system. I didn't want what happened to you, happen to me. I had the black water valve opened (like the directions said). I hooked up the black water flush system. Turned on the water, and NO extra water was coming out. So I would turn off the water after a few seconds (to avoid a flood in the rig) and close the black water valve, go into the trailer and flush and hold the toilet valve opened...Then go outside to pull valve...and get minimal waste coming out.( I have the clear dump couplings on my waste hoses.
I am concerned that there may be a blockage from the factory..You always hear of the tank "plugs" (from drilling the tanks) being left behind. Hopefully it is a quick fix, but for now, I won't be using the black tank flush system until I have the dealer look at it. The back "black water drain" works fine (2 bathroom unit). Someone from the factory said that the unit may have been used in the lot (some one taking a poop while parked in the lot)..Not sure what it is, but I won't be leaving the black water flush turned on while its unattended....Thank you for the heads up..May I suggest a clear coupling so you can see the sewage coming out?? If it isn't flowing good with flush on, Something probably isn't right..
Good Luck....
Bill
I must say, lot's of this post is going over my head with regard to the "vacuum breaker"... However, one reason I can think off that immediate sight of flush would not be observed is a unit that is not level or off-level toward the opposite side of the drain. With our unit, when using the black flush, we can distinctly hear the water flowing into the tank, however if the unit is not level it may take a bit for the water to start draining if the tank was just dumped.

[turbopilot51]

Update:

We found out that the water leak was caused by a "loose fitting" between the hose attachment and the black tank. One would think this would have been noticed at the PDI when "everything" was checked for proper operation. :bfart: I was assured that there was NO water damage and everything looked fine. The dealer even pressure tested the flush for about fifteen minuets. I was told that we have the cleanest black tank around. We will keep an eye on things and keep copies of the tech's repair report. Best part is no cost to me! :bdance:! I was told that my concern about the digital thermostat and heat pump was valid. There are new parts on order from Dometic.

[mikell]

They are still having problems with the thermostat?

[turbopilot51]

They are still having problems with the thermostat?

There is an issue with the outdoor air temp sensor and some control boards for the heat pump. New parts are on order from Dometic and should be here in a week or two. The furnace still works which is what we need in the soggy Northwest right now!

[Festus2]

The OP's problem with the leak has been found and repaired. New replacement parts enroute for the thermostat and heat pump. Sounds like a happy ending - especially since there was no cost involved. :bdance:

On that happy note ..... thread is now closed.
Thanks to everyone who offered suggestions about a leak fix to the OP. :thumbsup:

:wave: