Gen need ground

[LarryL]

I just put in a Progressive EMSHW-50C in my 5ver with remote display.

When I use my Honda EU3000is do I have to ground the gen In the past

I have not things work fine will the EMS not let power go through because

of no ground and also there is a bypass switch on the remote display but

is it off up or down?

And if the gen is in the the truck bed and needs to be grounded would

I ground it to the truck or 5ver?

[jje1960]

I'm waiting for the electricians to answer this am interested. We have never grounded the GENSET, however recently thought about making a cable to attach to the water pipe at the camp site and attach to the GENSET ground point. We spend a week in Farmer Bobs field every year, pretty much run the GEN 24/7 for the week. Also, would be easy enough to ground while it's in the truck bed on other trips, just not sure if should.

[LarryL]

Just don't know in the Honda manual It said to consult a qualified
electrician But not why just for intended use

[ktmracer]

I just put in a Progressive EMSHW-50C in my 5ver with remote display.

When I use my Honda EU3000is do I have to ground the gen In the past

I have not things work fine will the EMS not let power go through because

of no ground and also there is a bypass switch on the remote display but

is it off up or down?

And if the gen is in the the truck bed and needs to be grounded would

I ground it to the truck or 5ver?

The EMS looks for ground/neutral bonding. Many (Most?) portable generators do NOT bond the ground and neutral. I won't start the debate on what is safest.

Here is ONE solution offered by PI. Call PI and they will give you several other solutions.

On my honda 2000i (and the other hondas this will also work) I install a temporary ground/neutral bond when using with my trailer. That way the generator normally doesn't have the ground and neutral bonded. What I did is buy a orange replacement 3 prong 120V 15A male plug (orange so it's easy to identify, that's all). Inside the plug I connected the ground and neutral with a short piece of #14 wire, then put the plug back together. Whenever I use the generator with the trailer, I plug the "bonding plug" into one of the 120V receptical outlets. Problem solved. Now the EMS Sees a ground neutral bond and no error.

Whatever you do, DO NOT bond ground and neutral in the trailer to allow the EMS to work. It's an NEC code violation and a potential safety issue.

[SteveC7010]

The 110vac side of things in the trailer should be grounded right to chassis ground as should the 12vdc side. If the trailer is wired correctly, and if you use a 3 wire extension cord from the genny to the trailer, you should already have all the ground necessary.

All of this is very easy to verify with a meter or test light.

I am running into more and more all plastic water piping in campgrounds which rules out clamping on a pipe. However, the power post is supposed to have a good ground. That would also need to be tested and verified before trusting it.

But what to do if one is dry camping? The trailer and genset are bonded to each other, but there's no ground to earth. Well, I have no clear answer to that one. Folks have been using generators with their TT's for an awful long time now, and the only problems I have ever heard of also occur when the TT is connected to shore power and can't be traced to the genny setup.

In a perfect world, we'd all carry two 8' grounding rods and the necessary wire and clamps to create our own reliable ground.

[jje1960]

I'm still confused, sorry.... Question - if a location has water pipes that are suitable (galvanized pipe) should I ground the generator (via the ground point marked on the generator) to it? Question - should one ground a generator in the back of a truck to the truck (via the ground point marked on the generator) with a cable? I'm not an electrician and just don't know if this is correct or necessary.

[ktmracer]

[QUOTE=SteveC7010;30020]The 110vac side of things in the trailer should be grounded right to chassis ground as should the 12vdc side. If the trailer is wired correctly, and if you use a 3 wire extension cord from the genny to the trailer, you should already have all the ground necessary.

QUOTE]

the ground in the trailer MUST NOT be connected to the NEUTRAL!!! It is a NEC code violation and a potential safety hazard. Ground and neutral should only be connected to each other and the power source, either the generator or the CG main panel.

So a 3 wire cord to the genny will NOT solve the problem with the EMS. A properly wired trailer will show an open ground/neutral connection when connected to most portable generators.

See my previous post on an easy and safe way to properly bond ground and neutral at a generator.

[LarryL]

Maybe will have to wait until tomorrow and call Honda gen people
and ask them

[ktmracer]

I'm still confused, sorry.... Question - if a location has water pipes that are suitable (galvanized pipe) should I ground the generator (via the ground point marked on the generator) to it? Question - should one ground a generator in the back of a truck to the truck (via the ground point marked on the generator) with a cable? I'm not an electrician and just don't know if this is correct or necessary.

yes, try connecting the generator to a metal water pipe, provided it is really a decent earth ground, it will satisfy the EMS test for ground/neutral bonding. And it's probably the safest setup. Now the generator and trailer are truly connected to an earth ground. If the EMS still shows "open ground" it means the water pipe is not a good enough earth ground.

Or just build the bonding plug I described in an earlier post.

I would advise that you do NOT ground the generator to your truck. First, it won't provide a ground path back to the panel, hence the EMS will still see an unbonded ground/neutral, and second, it is a potential safety hazard, A fault between hot and ground now potentially has your truck live, since the truck is likely not well grounded, being insulated from earth ground by the rubber tires.

[hankaye]

Howdy All;

A friend of mine, way back when CB was a big thing was looking for a good way to ground his base unit at home. What he came up with was a 5 gal. bucket with about 4 inches of rock salt in the bottom and filled it up with water. Into which he'd dropabout 20' of coiled up ground wire.
Another friend simply ran his ground wire (in a shallow trench), out to his pond and sank a bunch of feet of it into the water..
Both had exceptional broadcast and recption qualities with their radios.

of course your mileage/recption may vary...

hankaye

[LarryL]

Thats a good idea but we are talking about generators to power
a rv with power if they need to be grounded

[hankaye]

LarryL, Howdy;

A ground is a ground....

hankaye

[LarryL]

but do you need it is the question if you run power through
the EMSHW-50C

[X-Treme]

Just turn the switch off on the EMS. That's what I do. The gen is very clean power anyway.

[LarryL]

Thanks X-Treme that is what I wanted to know, so EMS won't let
power in without a ground?
I just put it in and was going to take the gen over to check it out
and make sure I had it hooked up right before I take the 5ver out
camping.
But guess I will have to wait until I hook up to shore power to see
if it is working is that right?

[ktmracer]

Thanks X-Treme that is what I wanted to know, so EMS won't let
power in without a ground?
I just put it in and was going to take the gen over to check it out
and make sure I had it hooked up right before I take the 5ver out
camping.
But guess I will have to wait until I hook up to shore power to see
if it is working is that right?

Correct, one of the checks is "open ground" with a portable generator you almost always have an open ground since ground and neutral are not bonded. Hence, it will not allow power to the trailer. If you check it with the generator, it will somewhat tell you if it is working right. What it should do is give you an error message code that corresponds to "open ground" when you try to power it from the generator. Make the bonding plug I described in an earlier post and you can verify that it is functioning correctly with a bonded ground as well. Remove the bonding plug and the unit should kick out an give the open ground error code.

this is not normally a problem with an on board generator. Most/all will have the ground and neutral bonded at the generator before the transfer switch.

If you have the unit with the external readout and switch, with the switch "off" you will get power, but you have a surge protector only. Once the switch is off, the over/undervoltage protection, open ground, open neutral, reversed polarity, out of frequency range functions and the delayed start are disabled. IIRC the voltage and current readout also are disabled.

that's why I made a grounding plug for my generator. Wasn't worried about open ground, open neutral, reversed polarity, but over/under voltage would be nice, along with the voltage, frequency readouts. And the delayed start is nice because after it sees power, it has a 30 sec delay allowing the generator to stabilize before it switches power to the trailer.

If you have the unit w/o the external readout, it is much more of an issue, since you need to open up the unit to disable the protection circuit.


BTW, the current reading on the EMS is very inaccurate. can be off by as much as 200% high in some cases. As far as I know it will never read low, but often will read much higher than actual current. PI will acknowledge that if you call them.

[mespro]

Here is a link to confirm and explain ktmracer's neutral to ground plug

http://www.noshockzone.org/generator-ground-neutral-bonding/

Also a link to a list of Generators and whether or not they have a bonded neutral or not

http://www.generlink.com/CompatibleGenerator.pdf

[b.d.m]

Some of these reply on this thread scare me. As someone who is an EE via far to many years of school, and several years in practice let me give some advice.

DC Power wants to get back to the battery, or DC power supply and will do so using the path of least resistance.

AC Generated Power / AC Grid Power wants to return to Ground (Earth) If you are running a Gen, the neutral and ground must return back to the Gen for it to be safe. The Gen must be grounded or stray current could build up and will return to Earth. This could be through any conductive material. This includes your body. Step one foot onto the step, and another on the ground and you've completed that circuit and you get either a slight tingle, or you get a hell of a shock. Now if you are wearing rubble soled shoes you don't complete the circuit, maybe a child does, or pet, or other person.

My trailer runs a 50A 110v power cable. the very first thing that the power goes into is a surge and power protector that insures the correct wire is hot, a good netral is found and a good ground is found. If it doesn't find those it doesn't send power to my trailer because I don't like getting shocked.

It doesn't require a 8' copper rod to get a decent ground connection. I use a Yamaha 2000 Gen and ground it with a really long aluminum tent spike.

[JRTJH]

Some of these reply on this thread scare me. ....

It doesn't require a 8' copper rod to get a decent ground connection. I use a Yamaha 2000 Gen and ground it with a really long aluminum tent spike.

As an EE, can you tell me the difference in the "ground potential" by sticking a really long aluminum tent spike in 8" of Louisiana gumbo mud vs sticking it in 8" of really dry Nevada sand?

[b.d.m]

As an EE, can you tell me the difference in the "ground potential" by sticking a really long aluminum tent spike in 8" of Louisiana gumbo mud vs sticking it in 8" of really dry Nevada sand?

This is very true, sand even damp sand makes a bad ground. But in that situation, the aluminum tent stake will still be a better conductor than your bear feet and body. So any stray current if its not going into the sand from the tent stake isn't going to hurt you.

[Pmedic4]

There has always been a lot of confusion about grounding generators, and actually OSHA has provided information regarding that subject.

Grounding Requirements for Portable and Vehicle-mounted Generators
Under the following conditions, OSHA directs (29 CFR 1926.404(f)(3)(i)) that the frame of a portable generator need not be grounded (connected to earth) and that the frame may serve as the ground (in place of the earth):
• The generator supplies only equipment mounted on the generator and/or cord and plug-connected equipment through receptacles mounted on the generator, § 1926.404(f)(3)(i)(A), and
• The noncurrent-carrying metal parts of equipment (such as the fuel tank, the internal combustion engine, and the generator’s housing) are bonded to the generator frame, and the equipment grounding conductor terminals (of the power receptacles that are a part of [mounted on] the generator)
are bonded to the generator frame, § 1926.404(f)(3)(i)(B).

Thus, rather than connect to a grounding electrode system, such as a driven ground rod, the generator’s frame replaces the grounding electrode.
If these conditions do not exist, then a grounding electrode, such as a ground rod, is required.
Search for OSHA "grounding_port_generator.pdf" or the above sections.

As a firefighter, we always had thatargument:rolleyes: discussion, as the Chief always said it was required to have the vehicle mounted generators grounded by a stake driven into the ground. Even when someone pointed out the OSHA definition, he always required it to be grounded by driving a 4' long stake into the ground connected via a heavy copper wire.
Guess we just followed orders of the Chief - the short answer was no one saw any danger in driving in the ground stake. :D