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BLJ
02-26-2012, 04:23 PM
We have a 2011 Raptor. Its a year old this month, and since day one we have a a problem with carbon monixide. We have had the detector go off 3 times and the last time my legs were week and almost fell down the steps. We now purchased a detector that has digital reads(which all campers should have). We have had readings of 70 and 52 and in the 30's and Keystone says this is within the limits. We have had it to the shop and still we can't get the readings down. We finally took it to another dealer and we are now waiting to try it out once the weather breaks. I can be sitting watching TV and start getting headaches,(1 hour later) but Keystone says, I must be more inclined to having side effects from the carbon monixide. I feel we should always have 0 readings and Keystone disagrees. I have a house that is totally gas furance, stove, water heater and have detectors in my house that are reading 0. My brand new, expensive Raptor could be the death of us. I can't even take my grandson camping until this is resolved. We never camp in a campground we always boondock so we need the generator. We are never next to another camper of anything that would block the exhaust of the gen. Vents are closed and we personally have gone over the unit and plug holes(found big ones)that was letting exhaust into the unit. I waited to blog this problem for a year now, hoping they would get to the bottom of this, but what upset me latley is I called Carmen twice and left messages , and never got a return call. I think since our 1 year warrenty is running out, they just are not responding. My ATV club last night asked if we still are fighting about this problem and had to tell them yes. It was kind of embarassing. I hope Keystone has not foregotten us, but it seems that way. This camper was to be our retirement home to travel with, visit family and maybe do some camp hosting. We are not rich people, living paycheck to paycheck and now we are stuck with a possible death trap. I just want to be able to use it the way it is suppose to be used and not in fear. Is anyone out there getting high readings when they run their generator? EVERYONE GET A DIGITAL READ DETECTOR, if could save your life. BLJ

jrp
02-26-2012, 06:25 PM
under what conditions are you getting these high readings? do you mean with the generator running fulltime? or plugged into hookups with just the stove & furnace running?
The generally accepted level, where adverse effects can begin to occur (over several hours) is 10 PPM
I believe the OSHA workplace limit is 50 PPM avg over 8 hrs.
Any level of 100 or more PPM can cause unconciousness.
Your RV shouldn't come close to that reading unless something is seriously wrong or your genni exhaust is coming in the window.

BLJ
02-26-2012, 07:02 PM
This is when the generator is running. Keystone said OSHA standard is 50 and so this is not a problem anything under 50. I get headaches at 32 and have to get out of rv. I think OSHA standards are for commercial business or workplace, warehouse, not a living area or space. BLJ

BigCajun
02-27-2012, 07:43 AM
I've posted similar issues on another thread. Get the Genturi...it helps tremendously. Still hasn't eliminated the CO, but helped. I'm still fighting to get a replacement CO detector (since August 2011) from Quantum Group. They are a joke. I don't know how they stay in business.

BLJ
02-27-2012, 09:22 AM
We feel that this should not be a issue at all. I want the problem fixed. I understand we could get the attachment for the exhaust, but something is wrong. After $50,000. we need to invest more or have a hastle with an extention? I have not been camping that we have had full enjoyment with this camper. We have been out close to 20 times in one year with it, boondocking only and it is always on our minds and 95% of the trips a problem. We can't even watch a full dvd without the co detector raising over 30ppm. At that point we get out of camper. This is wrong We should be able to watch a movie and relax but it is impossible so far. Like I said, I want Keystone to return our calls and tell us they will back us with this problem. I wanted to take it to a onan certified person to make sure everything is OK with the gen and exhaust but Keystone said that is our bill and they won't stand behind it. This to me can be a life or death problem and Keysone won't return our calls now that our warranty is running out.. We have family in CA and we ATV. We can't go to the dessert because that would mean Air condition with gen running. We have never went camping in a campground so it is not someone elses gen we are getting fumes from. No one told us this unit is only to be used with full hook-ups so the gen would not be used. I wish I could find someone that could help us get this problem solved or guide us the right direction what to do next. BLJ

LeeMedic
02-27-2012, 09:22 AM
Carbon Monoxide is nothing to mess with. Carbon monoxide binds very strongly to the iron atoms in hemoglobin, the principal oxygen-carrying compound in blood. The affinity between CO and hemoglobin is 200 times stronger than the affinity between hemoglobin and oxygen. When CO binds to the hemoglobin it cannot be released nearly as readily as oxygen would be. The preferential binding of carbon monoxide to heme iron is the main reason for carbon monoxide poisoning.

When we get Carbon Monoxide poisoning patients, we have to take them to a hyperbaric chamber in order to get rid of the high levels carbon Monoxide. (I am a paramedic)

For healthy adults CO becomes toxic when it reaches a level higher than 35 ppm (parts per million) with continuous exposure over an eight hour period.. When the level of CO becomes higher than that a person will suffer from symptoms of exposure. Mild exposure over 2-3 hours (a CO level between 35 ppm and 200 ppm) will produce flu-like symptoms such as headaches, sore eyes and a runny nose.

You are taking a chance living in that environment.

Check this out:

http://www.stopcarbonmonoxide.com/files/CO%20Levels_Risk%20Chart.pdf

BLJ
02-27-2012, 09:32 AM
Thank you for this info. When I told them I was getting headaches their response was I must be more prone to co effects than most people. I guess that means it is my fault. I told my family that is anything would happen to us they know what to do. It took everything we had financially to purchase this unit and now I feel Keystone just dropped us and don't care at all that we can get sick or even risk death with this unit. Again, I want them to stand behind this problem until it gets fixed, whatever it takes. I don't think I we are asking to much. Thanks again for your response. BLJ

LeeMedic
02-27-2012, 09:48 AM
Thank you for this info. When I told them I was getting headaches their response was I must be more prone to co effects than most people. I guess that means it is my fault. I told my family that is anything would happen to us they know what to do. It took everything we had financially to purchase this unit and now I feel Keystone just dropped us and don't care at all that we can get sick or even risk death with this unit. Again, I want them to stand behind this problem until it gets fixed, whatever it takes. I don't think I we are asking to much. Thanks again for your response. BLJ

BLJ, push the issue. Research CO effects and show them they are wrong. Your RV is NOT a working environment, but a living environment! They need to make it right. You have the evidence on your side.

Keep up updated please!

BLJ
02-27-2012, 09:58 AM
Thanks so much for forwarding that web page to us. I hope that Keystone reads it too. Again, I can't stress enough that evey camper should have a digital co detector with a peak level read on it. I have pictures of ours reading 70 and lots of people witness our co detector going off and high reading we have had. I have lots of backup if we decide to pursue this legally with Keystone. I'll keep you posted BLJ

mjhaa43
02-27-2012, 10:22 AM
Hi i am a fireman and 30 and above u should be concern:(

BLJ
02-27-2012, 10:41 AM
Thanks for responding to this concern. The fact that I was watching tv and started geting a headache, jump up and looked at the co read out and it was climbing above 32, I didn't think this was good for our health. It is wonderful to get these responses to verify our feeling on this issue. I started to think this was our imagination after taliking with Keystone and that we have nothing to worry about. Thanks again.

easternshorebilly
03-04-2012, 05:08 AM
Not only does CO cause serious health risks, and is cumulative in the blood stream. But take a look at the flammable range of CO. 12.5% is the lower range up to 74% by volume for the upper. That a big range, and it also means that at 12500 ppm , all it needs is an ignition source to burn. Cause for concern...I think so.
Did that 5er come with the generator or was it an add on?

jje1960
03-04-2012, 08:17 AM
Definitely a very frustrating experience. If one of the Genturi units eliminates or brings the co down to near zero, would it not be worth it for you to enjoy your unit and be done with this? From the sound of it, it may be your only option if you wish to continue using your hard earned gear. Good luck, hope you get this worked out.

BLJ
03-04-2012, 09:16 PM
The generator was intalled at the Keystone plant. It was not after factory. You would think that Keystone would be more concerned for our health.
We just did a underground mine tour today. One of my first questions was about carbon monixide. They told us that if the level of carbon monixide gets above 10 ppm everyone needs to get out of the mine ASAP. Keystone thinks it is OK for my family to be in our camper with readings between 30 and 70ppm, I ask how can that be?????

I would really like to know who has in their RV a digital read on their carbon monixide detector and what are your readings, expecially the peak readings?
I would love to hear from you.

We have considered one of those Genturi, but I understand it would void the warranty on the generator. It sounds like people have good luck with them.
I would love to hear from those Genturi users too.

I really feel stong about everyone having a digital read with peaks readings on your carbon monixide detector in your RV. You could be having high readings without the alarm going off . I have had symptoms of weaks knees,
headaches, and feeling slightly dizzy. I now have 3 detectors in my raptor that I installed with digital read outs plus the plain one they installed. It is not a nice feeling to be concerned about this problem everytime we take it camping. Thanks for all your replies. BLJ

Festus2
03-04-2012, 10:18 PM
BLJ:
I understand your frustration and anger about not being able to use your newly-purchased RV the way you want to. For some reason, the carbon monoxide readings in your unit are abnormally high when the generator is running and causing you great discomfort and the gas is posing a danger to your health and safety. This issue is, as you have stated, " a matter of life or death" and "could be the death of us".
You have, without any success, tried to find the source of the problem and also have filled cracks and checked the slides to make sure gases are not entering your unit. Your efforts to find a resolution with Keystone have apparently been brushed aside leaving you with few, if any options, to eliminate or reduce the levels of carbon monoxide given off by the generator.

It appears as though you require a generator because of the type of camping you do so not using a generator isn't an option for you. As a possible solution, some members have suggested purchasing and installing a Genturi RV Generator Exhaust system. The
Genturi removes the fumes/gases by venting them above the roof and away from your RV.
This unit sells for less than $200 and, according to the ads, connects and disconnects very easily and quickly.

For this amount of money, it would seem to me that this is a small price to pay for a system that may provide you with a solution to your problem. If it reduces these gases to a level that you are comfortable and safe with, that would be great. If it doesn't decrease them to your satisfaction, then it isn't a huge financial loss either. You have 3 or 4 digital meters already in your unit so you should be able to get a good reading when you test out the effectiveness of the Genturi.

Camping season is fast-approaching and I wouldn't be waiting for Keystone to resolve your problem any time soon. The best route, in my opinion, is to be proactive and take control of the situation and get it fixed yourself.
If, as you say, this is a critical, life or death situation for you, surely the Genturi would be worth trying!

If the Genturi doesn't do what you want it to do...... have you thought about changing your camping habits so as to go to sites with hookups? Ones that don't require a generator? At least you will be able to get out, camp, and enjoy your unit rather than staying at home - afraid to go out because of the generator and the resulting carbon monoxide.

BLJ
03-05-2012, 08:46 AM
We belong to a ATV Club that only boondocks. We purchased a toyhauler just to do that and be with our friends. We don't have a desire to camp any other way. We live on the western slope of Colorado. We can drive 1/2 hour and be on BLM or on Federal lands and camp with the most beautiful views in the world. We never wanted to camp any other way. This is one of the reasons we live in this area. Someday we may use it to travel in our retirement but for now this is why we purchased this Raptor. This Raptor was suppose to be built for this kind of use. That is why we paid so much money for the enjoyment of boondocking(getting away) and ATVing. We had a truck Camper and pulled our ATV's. Only paid $6,000. for that. Wish I would of kept it. Never had a problem especially as dangerouse as this. Keystone has really left us down. It's to much for them to pick up the phone
and check in to see how we are doing. Again I have left messages and was ignored. We are hoping to camp this week-end, I'll be in touch. BLJ

JRTJH
03-05-2012, 10:52 AM
From reading this thread, it seems that the OP is not really interested in repairing his RV at his expense. Nor does it seem that he is prepared to add any items that could resolve his CO issue. Rather, it sounds as if his intention is to "force Keystone" to do the right thing.

The way I see it, there are three options for the OP:

ONE: As much as I dislike them, you might want to hire a lawyer to write Keystone a letter explaining the situation and what you expect (within your rights per Colorado law) for Keyystone to do for you. Be prepared, if you and your lawyer don't hear from them in a set time frame, or if Keystone refuses to negotiate with you, to "force Keystone's hand" by going to court.

TWO: Suck it up and fix the RV yourself.

THREE: Trade it in on one that you feel better suits your needs, regardless of the loss you might sustain in the trade. You may possibly get Keystone to agree to this, but I doubt they will help, expecially after legal representation has been obtained.

I don't think there's much of an alternative except those above. Anyone else have any ideas?

BLJ
03-05-2012, 11:38 AM
I guess I was brought up to do right by people and asking Keystone to do the same.

Suck it up? We have spent so much time and are own money trying to fix this problem and still when I call Keystone they don't return the call.

We have a mortgage on this unit and can't trade it. We don't have excess cash(does anyone)?

If anyone else have or had a carbon monixide problem and now use a Genturi with 100% satisfaction, I would really like to hear from you. BLJ

jbsmith
03-05-2012, 02:06 PM
Have you had the generator itself inspected for an exhaust leak or other problem that may be contributing to the excessive CO build-up?

I don't have a generator built into my trailer, but the Genturi product looks like a good idea, regardless of whether you're getting CO inside or not. I think any way to get the exhaust as far away from the living space as possible is a good idea.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

BLJ
03-05-2012, 02:16 PM
Genturi use. Onan says it voids their warranty and if installed wrong, it could do more harm than good. I agree with you to get exhaust far away, but what is wrong? We have had it looked at by 2 different dealers and I believe it was looked at closely by one of them. They don't understand it either. I hope that we can solve this problem with a gentrui, but I think it could be the generator that was installed by Keystone. BLJ

jbsmith
03-05-2012, 02:45 PM
I'd recommend you try to work closely with Onan. It sounds like you've done everything possible to seal up potential entry points. However, it still doesn't explain why CO is accumulating in such high concentrations.

I'm not familiar with the Raptor or the installation of the genny, but I'd take a good hard look at the possibility the generator is dumping CO, possibly from a crack in the exhaust manifold into the generator compartment. Sometimes these cracks aren't visible or don't open until the exhaust gets hot.

The root cause of the CO is the generator...and how many thousands of trailers like yours don't have problems? I feel its more likely the source of your problem than the trailer fab or installation. That's where I would start. This all may be remedied by a simple warranty claim through Onan...who if you play your cards right may be very interested in helping you investigate more thoroughly.

There are hand held meters that you can use to quickly measure the concentration of CO. You might be able to find a shop..maybe a furnace repair business that could loan you one or help you. This could help you isolate the point of entry or determine if there are abnormally high levels of CO in the generator compartment...indicating an equipment problem.

Good luck and hope you get it resolved.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

BLJ
03-05-2012, 02:54 PM
The hand held meter sounds like that should be our next move. What a geat idea. I really want to get to the problem and not mask it. Thanks for your idea and I'll locate one for our next camping trip. BLJ

BLJ
03-05-2012, 04:15 PM
the handheld meter sounds like a great idea, but does anyone know where I could rent one or what company may use them. I see they go for sometimes hundreds of dollars. BLJ

jbsmith
03-05-2012, 06:04 PM
Rentals are probably rare/expensive. Most professional rentals will cost you more per day than an inexpensive handheld meter costs.

I recommend you talk to a local HVAC shop. Any worth their salt should be fully equipped to check for CO leaks in home furnaces. They'll have necessary suction bulbs and probes to check around hot engine/exhaust. I'm guessing they'll charge you $50 to $75 for the service call...maybe less if you're willing to take your trailer to them.

A home inspector may be willing to help...but most use cheap handheld units for spot checks of CO around furnaces, gas water heaters, etc. You can do the same for less by just buying your own meter.

For ambient monitoring, assuming your genny checks out, you'll probably want to buy your own meter. Suck it up and just buy one through Amazon.com. Having a handheld meter might not be a bad idea for anyone with an onboard genny for frequent spot checks around seals, doors, windows, etc. Prices range from $100 up to $200 and beyond for professional units.

I guess if you want to be really cheap, you could put one of your plugin digital CO detectors on a extension cord and just poke around with that. However, I seriously doubt these units will have the response time to provide useful results and would be useless to check your genny.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

BLJ
03-05-2012, 06:18 PM
Thanks you for your thoughts. I do know a house inspector. Hopefully he has one of them.
I just talk with a onan certified mechanic. On the 14th of this month he will check it out for $250.00. If it is a Onan problem, it could be under warranty.
If it is Keystone I will have to collect it from them. Hopefully, they will stand behind it and pay the costs. Hopefully they will return my calls. I'll keep you updated. We have put more miles on our truck and RV trying to get to the bottom of this problem then we have camping. Hopefully the end is near. BLJ

Oscar
03-05-2012, 08:55 PM
I'd be shopping around for an attorney who will take this case and be confident enough that he or she can make Keystone pay for it.

Festus2
03-05-2012, 10:04 PM
Let us know on the 14th what the Onan certified mechanic finds out. We too hope "that the end is near".

BLJ
03-06-2012, 07:45 AM
I will keep you posted on what Onan finds and says about it. Your right the next step may be a lawyer. This unit should be an enjoyment and were not confortable taking our grandson(one reason we purchase this unit was to use the back of the toyhauler as a playroom while he was so little). Never happened. It is unbelievable Keystone won't return our calls. We have left 2 messages and they just blew us off. BLJ

rebelfan
04-01-2012, 06:58 PM
Wondering if you ever had a response from Keystone. After all the talk went & purchased a digital CO detector.

Festus2
04-01-2012, 07:44 PM
BLJ seems to have disappeared as we have not heard anything further from him about the results of the visit from the Onan tech or from Keystone. It appears as though he joined the forum to let us know about the problems he was having with carbon monoxide and then vanished.

SAD
04-02-2012, 02:51 AM
This thread got me to thinking. I wonder how the exhaust exits on his Raptor?

I have seen toyhaulers where the exhaust exited forward of the generator compartment - i.e. pointing towards where the truck would be. I thought this was bizarre. Exhaust would be placed directly below the bedroom.

On my previous camper (2008 Weekend Warrior Toyhauler), the generator exhaust exited to the driver's side (street side) of the camper.

We used the generator for hours and hours on end without issue. As a matter of fact, in 2007 when we had the big ice storm, the generator ran for 4-5 days straight (about 120 hours without interruption). All we had was the (probably cheap and ineffective) CO2 detector that WW installed at the factory. Never got any alerts from it and never had any of the typical, flu-like symptoms.

If it were me with the Raptor and the problem, I would want it fixed and be able to use my RV without any special contraptions or band aides.

I guess it's a careful balance between what it may cost to pursue with an attorney VS getting some professional help on my own.

BLJ
04-05-2012, 01:08 PM
Your Wrong Festus 2, I have not dissappeared, I am not like Keystone. We, personally think we found the problem. If this is the case, it was missed and never checked by Keystone and can't believe they over looked this. We are waiting to go camping with it the next 2 week-ends to be sure it is fixed. Keystone told us, months ago, if we took it to Onan, it was our bill @ $125. per hour and 4 hour round trip. We decided to really dig into it and look for the problem ourselves. Keystone installed the generator, if we fixed the problem , it happened at the plant where the generator was installed. We have a 2 year warranty. Why was it our bill? I'll be in touch and I am glad to hear that people are purchasing the digital read CO detector. This could be a life saver. I will let all of you know exactly what the fix is, if we actually solved the problem. Be in touch. BLJ

CampDestinations.com
04-05-2012, 07:22 PM
BLJ, not sure if you are a Good Sam Club member, but they do have a consumer resolution hotline that you might reach out to for help with Keystone. You won't be able to access if you're not a member though -- http://www.goodsamclub.com/memberbenefitdetails.aspx?f=0&catid=21

BLJ
04-09-2012, 01:30 PM
Thanks for the info, not a member, but may join.

BLJ
04-09-2012, 01:41 PM
Thanks SAD for your input. We have not been able to use our TV and watch a DVD without feeling sick for the first year of ownership. We had one time with a reading over 50 this past week-end which we really think it was our fault for having the bathrm vent open. We had family with us and didn't know they opened it. Think we are going camping again this week-end so I'll keep everyone informed how this week-end goes. Wish us Luck, BLJ

BLJ
04-16-2012, 06:35 AM
It snowed this past week-end and didn't have a chance to check it out to see if it is fixed. It will be May till we get to camp. I will keep everyone posted because this is a serious problem. Hope everyone has purchased a digital read CO detector with peaks level read on it. Be safe BLJ

BLJ
05-10-2012, 07:21 AM
Hi Everyone, I know it's been a long time, but we just, this past week-end went camping again. For the first time in over a year I enjoyed our Raptor. I felt better and my daughter really notice the difference too. We were no longer being poisoned. Hopefully, only trying it once, since we fixed it ourselves, it is totally fixed now. We, through JB SMITH, took his advice and found a friend of a friend who had a handheld CO meter. Amazing what we discovered. Where the exhaust pipe goes into the gen, there is groves in this pipe to I guess expand for a tight seal(my husband could explain better) hopefully you can follow me. The pipe from the factory was never put together the way it should of been. When we stuck the meter up in that area, underneath the Raptor, the meter shot up to over 1500. Now we have it at 60. (This is outside the unit, underneath) We took it apart and put it back together. Put sealing stuff around it and a clamp. I can't believe this was never checked by Keystone or Tarply. There was carbon on the outside of the pipe, telling us there was a leak. My husband and I feel stupid we never noticed it but we are not educated at all in this kind of thing. I want to thank JB SMITH for his advice. Because of this blog, my husband and I can now start to enjoy camping again. Keep your fingers crossed, since it was only tried once, boondocking. FYI Never heard anything from Keystone since I started this blog. BLJ

SAABDOCTOR
05-10-2012, 08:49 AM
WOW!!! What an incredible story. One thing is you should not feel stupid! you are not mechanics! The mechanics should feel stupid what did they think the black soot was spray paint? well let the manufactures play it's the other guys fault. your patinace is to be commended. and your post here may very well save someones life. OUTSTANDING JOB WELL DONE!. By the way if i let acustomer down like that i would be so embarrased, I hope in 43 years of repairing cars i haver never done that to some one.;)

Festus2
05-10-2012, 08:52 AM
BLJ -
Good to hear that the problem has been found and solved. Now you can finally camp and stay in your unit knowing that it is safe. Enjoy.

randy69
06-30-2012, 06:48 PM
Have you checked to see where the exhaust is leaking from ?? Before or after the muffler. And there is also a 1/2 pipe plug in the muffler for soot clean out maybe the plug is missing. And also make sure any windows on the generator exhaust side are closed. Just a thought.
Ps. Had to replace my Carbon Monoxide unit 1 year after I bought the trailer. And yes First Alert brand said 5 year guarentee. I just bought another one. Randy69

JAT2460
09-14-2012, 06:46 PM
I just purchased a 2013 Raptor 310 model. Used the generator and around 1:00 am my CO alarm went off.

Took it back to Camping World and they said they had to put a testing device in it to find how many PPM there was while the gen was running. I did notice the gen was working very hard and acted like it wanted to stall. They still have it @ Camping World for testing.

More to come.....

randy69
09-14-2012, 08:37 PM
I've posted similar issues on another thread. Get the Genturi...it helps tremendously. Still hasn't eliminated the CO, but helped. I'm still fighting to get a replacement CO detector (since August 2011) from Quantum Group. They are a joke. I don't know how they stay in business.

I thought the geturi would exhaust above the roof. So why doesn't that eliminate all carbon monoxide comming in from your slide out seals or comming through a open window on the exhaust side.

JAT2460
09-18-2012, 05:31 AM
I heard back from Camping World, They said a seal on the left front slide needs to be replaced. I told them about a post I read here on the exhaust pipe near the header area sometimes it's not sealed properly, they said they will investigate.

More to come....

JAT2460
09-23-2012, 07:27 AM
Appears the Carbon Monoxide detector was bad. They tested and there was only.25 PPM inside the living area, we are purchasing our own Carbon Monoxide detector to make sure nothing else happens. We'll be purchasing a Gen-Turi as well.