Battery relocation

[2011 keystone]

Is there any reason that I could not move the battery from the tongue to the front storage compartment.

[hankaye]

2011 keystone, Howdy;

Yes, it needs to breath. Batteries off gas Hydrogen gas and it is very explosive when allowed to accumulate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F54rqDh2mWA

hydrogen is what allowed the heindenburg to fly.

hankaye

[Bob Landry]

The battery charging/hydrogen gas thing is hyped almost as much as global warming. It is true that hydrogen is a very volatile gas. It is also true that when batteries are being overcharged, they give off hydrogen gas, However, the probability of a battery emitting enough ppm of hydrogen to cause an explosion is minimal to none. There are many marine applications where wet batteries are located under settees and under bunks with no venting other than the loose fitting tops on battery boxes, and in the 15 years that I have been in the marine industry, I have never heard of a hydrogen based explosion happening. Class B vans have their batteries installed inside. Where else are they going to ride?
From a close colleague and an ex submarine sailor, and those guys wrote the book on deep cycle battery charging, you would have to have dozens of batteries in a small closed space, all overcharging and gassing to emit enough of a hydrogen concentration to create an explosive environment.
That said, there have been hundreds of posts pertaining to this and no one is going to change anyone else's perception of the dangers of hydrogen gas, either real or percieved, so I suppose it will continue to generate a lot of campfire conversation.

PS. If anyone has knowledge of a hydrogen explosion that actually happened, please post a link to it.

[JRTJH]

There is no reason why you couldn't move the battery from the tongue to the front storage compartment. There, it would be warmer, probably work better in cold weather, be less visible for theft, protected better from the elements.

There is a concern, however. The battery, if stored in the front compartment would essentially be INSIDE the trailer. During charging, it produces hydrogen gas which is explosive and could cause a fire or worse. If you do decide to relocate it there, you'd need to get a leak proof battery storage box (not the kind sold at WalMart) and vent it through the floor and out the side wall of the trailer. That way, air could come in from the bottom and carry the hydrogen out the side of the trailer. Hydrogen is lighter than air and rises, so the outlet needs to be higher than the battery box. Don't forget, in order to get circulation in the battery box, you need to vent the bottom of the box through the floor of the trailer to the outside. A possible option may be to mount the battery box off the floor and vent the bottom to the side of the trailer also, but that would be difficult to do without building an elevated stand for the box. Bottom line: If you do move it, you have to enclose it in an airtight box and vent the box to the outside.

For clarity, in the last line, when I say "airtight box" what I mean is a box that is sealed so that no gasses from the battery can escape the box inside the trailer. On mine, the box is vented under the trailer and also vented out the side of the trailer. Where the battery cables enter the box, they are sealed with closed cell foam as is the flange between the top and bottom halves of the battery box.

I know this sounds like OVERKILL and it probably is, but I am reporting how Keystone installed my battery box and how I installed the second one both of which now sit side by side in my front storage compartment.

[Festus2]

John:
Not sure where in your 5th wheel your batteries are located, but in mine they are situated in the very front storage compartment - that area where the landing jacks are situated. I have two 6v batteries that are housed in a battery box that has a removable top with an attached vent hose that exits to the front/exterior of the storage compartment. This dual battery box does not have any holes on the bottom but does have voids where the wires to and from the batteries are. The battery case is certainly not airtight but rather vented on top and with holes on the sides to allow for wiring.
In your post you mentioned that you "need to vent the bottom of the box through the floor of the trailer" to allow circulation of air within the battery box. If you are talking about a "leakproof" and airtight battery box, how would this be possible?
I have no vents in the bottom of my battery box and there seems to be enough "holes" in the box itself where the wiring enters/exits to allow for adequate circulation.
Not sure how you can have an "airtight box" and; at the same time, allow for both the wiring and the venting to the outside. ???
While not dismissing the dangers of the hydrogen gas emitted by batteries, I also am of the opinion that it may be overstated. As a former boater, I have had some experience with large batteries and have lived in a separate but very close area to where we had a couple of 8D Cat batteries and were not as concerned about emissions from the batteries as we were about gasoline fumes. But we are talking about two different things here - I digress.
I think the key thing here is to make sure that the batteries are in an approved battery container, are properly secured and that the box is vented somehow to the outside.

[JRTJH]

Festus,

I agree venting to the outside is the big issue. I think that if we had access to the RVIA standards, it mandates venting, so to comply, Keystone follows guidelines. Now, my question would be, if we violate that standard and our insurance company finds out after an accident, could (or would) they refuse to pay the claim based on that???? I don't want to be the test case <G>

Now, to answer your question regarding the bottom vent. On my battery box that came installed from Keystone, there are two parts, a top and bottom. Both of them interlock together and have about 8 or 10 bolts holding the halves together. There are two small 1/2" holes in the side, one for the pos and one for the neg cable. These holes and the entire flange where the box halves join is lined with closed cell foam tape. The box halves are identical (I suppose like the top of your box) and the top is connected to a 1 1/2" flex hose which is joined to a circular vent near the top of my front compartment. The bottom of the box has an identical "hose connection" and it is inserted into a 1 1/2" hole cut in the metal floor of my front compartment. When I installed the second battery box, what I ordered and received from Keystone was the identical assembly, two of the same box halves. I used a hole saw, cut a matching hole in the metal floor, set the bottom half in that hole and after installing the battery and wiring it through the small holes, put the top on and joined it with the other vent hose at a homemade "T" fitting.

Essentially, both my original box installed by Keystone and my installed box are vented from the bottom, through the box and out the top. I suppose that gives some method of air circulation to help vent hydrogen buildup. When I installed my second box, I followed "EXACTLY" what Keystone did on the first. When reading your explanation of your box being a "plain bottom" I wondered if maybe Keystone made an error on installation, but then, when I ordered a box, I got the same thing they installed originally.... My only complaint is that it is a BEAR to check battery levels with all those screws, I've left about half them out the last few times I've checked.

I also believe that hydrogen is much more feared than it really needs to be, at least in my belief, but a neighbor burned his house down several years ago while charging the battery in his fishing boat. He hooked up the charger, apparently one of the cells was nearly dry, when the battery started producing hydrogen in that "dry cell" it was enough to cause an internal explosion, that blew the cap off the battery and the gas fumes in the well exploded and caught the garage on fire, the flames spread before they could get it extinguished. That caused me to not want anything to do with batteries in a closed environment. In my trailer, the propane tanks sit right beside the batteries. That's enough to warrant caution for me :)

I wonder what changed in how Keystone installs battery boxes from your model year to mine?

Anyone with a 2010 or 2011 fifth wheel, how is the bottom of your battery box configured?

John

[kingji]

Man, I might be sleeping right above a bomb. My two 30lb propane tanks set about 18 inches away from three 100amph batteries. I feel comfortable with the set-up though. My batteries are Power Sonic AGC's (sealed) and I always check for leaks around the valves of the bottles. I usually only open one bottle at a time and I make sure the valve that is opened is fully opened against the back seat. The compartment is semi sealed with a few holes for ventilation.

JK

[SteveC7010]

My primary worry would be a simple spill of the battery acid, regardless of cause. Your interior compartments just aren't designed to contain that.

Secondly, I like my batteries where they are rapidly accessible in case of an electric problem. On the TT, they were on the A-frame as usual. In the new fifth wheeler, they're in a vented battery box right inside the well ventilated and easy-to-access front utility compartment. If there is a short or other electrical issue at the battery, it is outside the living compartment and reachable.

I also like the idea that the batteries remain in the place they are expected to be in case the fire department or other rescuer needs to reach them for any reason.

On a boat, while not particularly well ventilated, if the battery is under a seat, again it is easily and rapidly reached by removing the seat bottom.

As I think about it, I find more reasons to leave the batteries in their traditional locations. I don't find any reasons to relocate them to an interior compartment of an RV. Must my $0.02.

[2011 keystone]

Lots of good points. my main reason for the move was the thought of theft. so does anyone no of a lockable battery box that can be bolted to the a frame.

[SteveC7010]

Lots of good points. my main reason for the move was the thought of theft. so does anyone no of a lockable battery box that can be bolted to the a frame.

Google is your friend.....

http://www.b-drvbatterylock.com/
http://www.americanrvcompany.com/Curt-52024-Lockable-Battery-Box-with-Punched-Holes-for-Wiring-Camper-Trailer-RV_p_10229.html

Dozens more out there.

[mhs4771]

This is all very interesting,especially since CW just threw a battery info my front utility compartment without a box. I asked about a box so they gave me one, but there is nothing or anyway to connect a vent hose to said box. I guess we're living on the edge.

[SteveC7010]

This is all very interesting,especially since CW just threw a battery info my front utility compartment without a box. I asked about a box so they gave me one, but there is nothing or anyway to connect a vent hose to said box. I guess we're living on the edge.

They do sell a vented battery box, but it has to be installed by drilling a hole in exterior wall of the compartment and hooking up the vent hose to it.

http://c.adventurerv.net/a/thumbs/images/Vented-Battery-Box.jpg.thumb_popupprod_info_250x228_d84157d35b429 dc1c00cfcafac997a44.jpg

http://www.adventurerv.net/vented-battery-box-large-white-p-4085.html

I bought a second one at a Priority RV outlet, and I am quite certain that CW offers them. PPL MotorHomes has them, too.

[JRTJH]

The description on the box Steve listed is:

Battery boxes inlude ventalation kit (wall connector, outside vent and 9" hose) for inside installations. The bottom also has a vent hole. Meets RVIA Code. Internal dimensions: 7" W x 13-1/2" H x 10" D. Outside vent: 4-1/2" diameter. Priced each

This one costs about twice what the Keystone box costs. I think I paid $14.88 for mine and it was shipped from Keystone to the dealer in another RV so no additional charge for shipping.

[JRTJH]

This is all very interesting,especially since CW just threw a battery info my front utility compartment without a box. I asked about a box so they gave me one, but there is nothing or anyway to connect a vent hose to said box. I guess we're living on the edge.

When you bought your trailer and found the box missing, was there a round vent similar to the one shown in Steve's link that had already been installed in the front wall of your trailer and is there a 2" hole in the compartment floor under the battery? If so, then probably the assembly was installed when it left Keystone and wasn't there when it was delivered.

[Festus2]

John:
To further clarify my battery box ........ Initially when I purchased the 5th, it came with a single battery which was contained in a box with a 2" hole in the bottom which sat directly over a 2" pre-drilled hole in the compartment floor.
Since I did not want a single, 12 V battery I had it switched out for 2 6v which required a bigger box. This new box did not come with any pre-drilled hole in the bottom although I could have drilled out one myself but chose not to.
It was during the course of this battery modification/upgrade that the single battery box was changed and replaced with a new one that held 2 batteries. So I am not sure whether a battery box that is designed to hold 2 batteries comes with pre-drilled hole(s) in the bottom. Actually, I am not sure how much additional air would enter the box seeing as how there is a battery sitting over that hole and essentially blocking it.
It seems that Keystone assumes that there will be just 1 battery with a battery box that has a single hole in the bottom of it to fit over the pre-drilled hole that lines up with the hole in the battery box.
In any case, I am not about to drill any more holes in the battery box as I am sure there is adequate ventilation in that compartment coupled with the vented battery box cover.
My battery box is a moulded one-piece unit (with removable top) that is large enough to hold 2 6v batteries.

[SteveC7010]

The description on the box Steve listed is:

Battery boxes inlude ventalation kit (wall connector, outside vent and 9" hose) for inside installations. The bottom also has a vent hole. Meets RVIA Code. Internal dimensions: 7" W x 13-1/2" H x 10" D. Outside vent: 4-1/2" diameter. Priced each

This one costs about twice what the Keystone box costs. I think I paid $14.88 for mine and it was shipped from Keystone to the dealer in another RV so no additional charge for shipping.

I only quoted that one because it came up nearly first on a google search, and it had a pic that was snaggable for the post. By no means am I recommending that anyone purchase the one I pointed at in my post. I used it because it came up first or nearly first and was a good visual example.

I think I paid about $16 over the counter for mine (exact same box with vent hose and fitting) at Priority RV (Alpin Haus) in Amsterdam, NY. They didn't stock them, but ordered it for me and it came in in less than a week.

Everyone is encouraged to do their own searching and find the best deal possible on items like this.

[JRTJH]

John:
To further clarify my battery box ........ I am not sure how much additional air would enter the box seeing as how there is a battery sitting over that hole and essentially blocking it....
.....I am sure there is adequate ventilation in that compartment coupled with the vented battery box cover.

I agree with you, I don't think I'd start cutting holes in the bottom of a nonvented box either. At least with what you currently have, you can contain any leaking acid that might spill. Like you, I wonder just how much air flow there is past the battery bottom that sits over the hole essentially blocking airflow... If your front compartment is like mine (and I'm sure it's pretty close) then there are so many holes and so much air leakage, it's hard to imagine any vapors being able to linger for very long. With the boxes I have, it's either cut off the bottom flange and risk any leakage spilling onto the compartment floor or install them like I did. As I said before, IF we could get ahold of the RVIA standards, I'd really like to see what the "real requirement" is for battery venting. I've tried to get them and as far as I can get is to either buy them (must be a member of RVIA) or try to keep doing Google searches for bits and pieces.

John

[Camp I am]

I wonder if two vented boxes could share one common vent line? So if I doubled my batteries (2 vented boxes) I could just T into the existing vent line and not have to drill an additional hole in the trailer?

[Festus2]

I would think that you could utilize a single vent hose for your two separate batteries and their boxes by using a "T" as you described. This setup, while slightly different than mine, would accomplish the same thing. I have a single vent hose for two batteries in a single box --- you would end up with, by using a "T", a single hose for two batteries in two separate boxes. You shouldn't have to drill any extra holes.

[jje1960]

On our last TT I fabricated two brackets, one to relocate the existing battery and the other to add a battery. I'll try and find a picture to post, it worked out very well, the batteries were still outside, one on each side of the front hitch rails, just in front of the trailer body itself. This free'd up space for a flat plate that our 1k mitsubishi inverter was mounted on.

[jje1960]

On our last TT I fabricated two brackets, one to relocate the existing battery and the other to add a battery. I'll try and find a picture to post, it worked out very well, the batteries were still outside, one on each side of the front hitch rails, just in front of the trailer body itself. This free'd up space for a flat plate that our 1k mitsubishi inverter was mounted on.

This is the only pic I could find... However shows the reposition.

[SteveC7010]

I would think that you could utilize a single vent hose for your two separate batteries and their boxes by using a "T" as you described. This setup, while slightly different than mine, would accomplish the same thing. I have a single vent hose for two batteries in a single box --- you would end up with, by using a "T", a single hose for two batteries in two separate boxes. You shouldn't have to drill any extra holes.

I am going to take a closer look at all that in the spring when I get the trailer out of storage. I bought the battery box and did not have a chance to install it before the trailer had to go to its winter home.

IIRC, the new box has a bottom vent, and since the floor of the front utility compartment is a single layer of aluminum (I think), drilling the bottom hole should not be an issue. Even if it is a layer of wood and aluminum, still not much of a concern.

The upper vent is more so, although where the existing one is located above the door is an open area without too many layers of wall so it may end up being much easier to just drill the second hole.

I'll document the mod when I do it and post it on the forum.

[JRTJH]

I wonder if two vented boxes could share one common vent line? So if I doubled my batteries (2 vented boxes) I could just T into the existing vent line and not have to drill an additional hole in the trailer?

I joined both top vents on my battery boxes with a T. The vent hose on your battery box is a unique size. If I remember correctly, it's closer to 2.25" so when you go to the big box store to get a T, none will fit. What I finally did was get a schedule 20 (thinnest wall available) t and then put some 1/4" foam insulation tape around it to build it up. so the hose would fit tighter against the ends of the T.

Like Steve, my trailer is in storage about 30 miles away, so I can't run outside and take a picture, but essentially, my boxes sit side by side. The original box has a vent hose that runs to the outside vent which is located just above the front compartment door. When I installed the second box, I placed it right beside the original box, made a new bottom vent hole so it fit flush to the floor, cut the original hose about 1' above the boxes, installed the T and ran my new vent hose to the T. Now, both boxes vent through the same opening on the front wall of the trailer just above the front compartment door.

One thing that Keystone failed to do was secure the hoses to the box and to the vent opening. I used a couple of square drive screws (same as those used everywhere in the trailer) and ran them through the hose/battery box flange, the T that I installed and also up at the vent above the door. Now the hoses don't slip off the box or the vent any more. Just makes it seem more secure not to keep finding loose vent hoses laying on the floor after every tow :)

[Camp I am]

This is the only pic I could find... However shows the reposition.


That's cool. I did this on our last TT, welded a tray together using expanded steel and some small 1/2" angle iron so I could hold 2 marine batteries. Worked well, just bolted it then onto the original angle iron that the single battery was sitting in, and this gave me a place to set hitch pins and such while working in front of the TT. In this picture you can also see the cable lock I used to make sure they stayed there:cool:

http://www.keystoneforums.com/attachments/photobucket/img_24589_0_bdfc0454a1298e9fd0ca12b7f9647af0.jpg

[Camp I am]

I would think that you could utilize a single vent hose for your two separate batteries and their boxes by using a "T" as you described. This setup, while slightly different than mine, would accomplish the same thing. I have a single vent hose for two batteries in a single box --- you would end up with, by using a "T", a single hose for two batteries in two separate boxes. You shouldn't have to drill any extra holes.

Where did you find the larger vented box that would hold two batteries? I did a search and can only find the singles. I supose I could make one out of a plastic bin that would fit nicely also if I can't buy one. Seems that would be a cheap way to do it to.

[trucker LOU]

Hey all, I installed 4/6's to replace orig 2/12's and vented with T . after install which was done by sliding/dropping into boxes in compartment I got to wondering how the *#@%^ am I going to get them out if needing replacement. just finished "battery hoist" lift battery out of box, slide plank under,and slide battery out where you can get at it to lift. JRTJH this is the same model trailer as yours. Pics to follow if I get lucky.---LOU---

[Festus2]

LOU
Have you tested you hoist to see if it works? Looks like a great idea - especially trying to lift and move around those heavier 6volts! It looks like you have welded a couple of supports for your pulley system......????

I was thinking the same thing -- "How am I ever going to get them out?"

[JRTJH]

LOU, ingenious, now when I do move to the 6V battery system..... So far, we're still getting 3 or 4 days off a full charge on the dual 12V system. So, I can't justify buying new batteries as long as these are working. BUT--- Once they start giving us problems, I'm looking to do the swap. Where did you get those battery boxes?

Festus2, There are two frame stringers running fore/aft right over the batteries. It looks like Lor drilled holes in them and bolted the blue angles to those stringers. I don't think there was any welding to do.....

[trucker LOU]

Festus & John, no welding on pulley mount only on lifter jig for battery. I bought the boxes from interstate batt. I have also seen them online. Avail. for side by side or end to end. If I can remember site for boxes I will post later--LOU-- ps: John, to fit 4/6's I moved the propane bottles over. Festus, tested OK.

[Comptech]

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/65346-DIY-vented-battery-box-what-to-use

FYI this site kind of has some of the same info...

[Comptech]

I would think that you could utilize a single vent hose for your two separate batteries and their boxes by using a "T" as you described. This setup, while slightly different than mine, would accomplish the same thing. I have a single vent hose for two batteries in a single box --- you would end up with, by using a "T", a single hose for two batteries in two separate boxes. You shouldn't have to drill any extra holes.

Does anyone know what size the vent hose is? If I went to Home Depot to by a T and a short length of hose to vent off my second battery box.

[Comptech]

So to add to the ventilation talk, I really don't see the need to add the hose etc.. for the second battery install. I looked inside my front compartment and by each front jack are huge gaps a coupe of inches long by an inch or so wide, right to the outside air. With the new battery box being well vented it seems over kill. I can understand why there are the RV regulations for this, but it seems over kill to me...

[JRTJH]

Comptech,

I tried to do what you're suggesting. Lowe's and HD have 1.5" and 2" hose. The battery boxes in my RV are 1.75" hoses. Yeah, I know, but the only place I found the correct size hose was at an RV parts house. I did try to use the 2" and wrap some foam insulation tape around the vent. It worked for a while but after removing the box cover a couple of times to check battery water levels, it didn't hold up well. So I just bought the right size hose for a couple bucks more and it's been working well since I changed the hoses out.

As for battery box ventilation, it is my understanding that RVIA stipulates that the battery gasses must be vented to the outside of the RV. If you look at battery boxes for travel trailers with batteries mounted on the tongue, they have several vents molded into the top cover. These boxes are OK for mounting on the tongue, but should not be used in closed spaces such as the front storage compartment on a fifth wheel.

Battery gasses are primarily hydrogen, a "lighter than air gas" that is highly explosive. If you used the "tongue box type" in a closed compartment with open spaces near the floor, you conceiveably will release hydrogen that would float to the top of your storage space and remain there until you opened the door or until a spark ignited it. Having ventilation spaces around the bottom of the compartment won't effectively ventilate a "lighter than air" gas which accumulates near the top of the compartment.

The reason for air tight battery boxes and venting to the outside is to prevent the accumulation of hydrogen in the storage compartments. Will it happen? probably not, could it happen? Yes it could. Remember the Hindenburg......

[Comptech]

Jrtjh,
Yea Home depot was a bust nothing I could find would fit right... I guess for safety I will see about ordering a proper vented box like the ones shown in this thread... The front compartment is huge and seems anything but air tight and is well ventilated... IMHO

[JRTJH]

Comptech, I totally agree with you, there's enough ventilation in the front compartment on my fifth wheel that I'm sure nothing could accumulate there (except dirt). But there's always that crazy "off chance" one in a million..... I just don't want to be out a bizillion miles from anything and have a spark cause a problem that I can't control. Just my luck that I'd be the only one "ever" to lose an RV like that..... :eek:

[rrflorida]

PS. If anyone has knowledge of a hydrogen explosion that actually happened, please post a link to it.

Hi,

Saturday morning, 9/28/2013, everybody around the camp was talking about the gunshot they heard at 5am. The consensus was that it was at least 40 caliber. I didn't hear it(!), but my wife did. Turns out the gunshot was my battery exploding less than 2 feet from the head of our bed, and inches from the 2 propane tanks, in our 2010 Passport 2910BH. Blew to pieces the top of the battery box, blew the 2 caps off the battery and separated the top of the battery on 3 sides - I'll post a picture of that soon. Cowabunga!

Although I don't yet fully understand the mechanism of failure, I believe this was my fault and preventable. I left my camper plugged in for 2.5 years in my driveway and never once checked the water level in the battery. My inside camper lights had been surging for several months, with me thinking "huh, wonder why they are doing that?", but taking no action. Am now investigating battery technologies and explosion proof boxes.

I thank God that there were no injuries.

[Festus2]

Hi,

!

Although I don't yet fully understand the mechanism of failure, I believe this was my fault and preventable. I left my camper plugged in for 2.5 years in my driveway and never once checked the water level in the battery. My inside camper lights had been surging for several months, with me thinking "huh, wonder why they are doing that?", but taking no action. Am now investigating battery technologies and explosion proof boxes.

I thank God that there were no injuries.

Yes, you were very lucky! If you were plugged in for that long and didn't check the water level in the battery, they would have dried up and if they continued to be charged --- well, you witnessed the result.

I'm not sure if there is such a thing as an "explosion proof" battery box. The box is there to keep the terminals protected from accidental contact with other conductors - screw drivers, tools and FINGERS, to contain any spills that might occur, and to vent any gasses emitted from the batteries if they are housed inside an RV compartment. I don't believe the box is meant to be explosion proof.

Glad to hear that no one was injured or no damage was done. A reminder to all of us not to neglect our batteries!