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Maineiacs
01-22-2021, 07:17 AM
This is the information in my TT literature;
Shipping Weight 8416 lbs

Carrying Capacity 2084 lbs

Hitch 1165 lbs



I know I need to add the weight of water and waste and contents, etc. Just curious if they mean the hitch assembly that is welded or bolted to the trailer frame is extra weight and I'm really hauling 9,581 pounds? Or if that's their estimation of the tongue weight when the coach is properly balanced. What do you think?


And yes, I know I need to get on a CAT scale but the TT is in storage and I'm just idly wondering at this point.

flybouy
01-22-2021, 07:28 AM
This is the information in my TT literature;
Shipping Weight 8416 lbs

Carrying Capacity 2084 lbs

Hitch 1165 lbs



I know I need to add the weight of water and waste and contents, etc. Just curious if they mean the hitch assembly that is welded or bolted to the trailer frame is extra weight and I'm really hauling 9,581 pounds? Or if that's their estimation of the tongue weight when the coach is properly balanced. What do you think?


And yes, I know I need to get on a CAT scale but the TT is in storage and I'm just idly wondering at this point.


Ignore empty weight. Use the GVWR which from your numbers is 10,500 lbs. Take 13% of that for your hitch weight or 10,500 X .13 = 1,365 lbs.

Now add about 120 lbs for the weight distributing hitch. That's the part that goes into the truck reciever,. i.e. the hitch head with the ball and the weight distributing bars. So for this exercise we'll take the ESTIMATED 1,365 and add then 120 lbs for the hitch for a total hitch weight on the back of the truck of 1,485 lbs.

wiredgeorge
01-22-2021, 08:30 AM
The listed hitch of pin weight by the manufacturer is a mystery to me. Not sure why they claim such low weights as it smacks of disingenuous marketing. Most folks who weight their campers are no where in the neighborhood of manufacturer claims and the common number that is found from actual scale weights in 10-15 percent (of gross weight) for bumper pulls and 20-25 percent (gross weight) for 5th wheels. The sales person at a dealership runs with the manufacturers weights and spews them like gospel and if a sales person sees a diesel powered truck will claim it can tow anything on the planet.

LewisB
01-22-2021, 10:10 AM
The trailer GVWR is not provided in the OP nor is the make/model of the trailer. For an unknown trailer, the total weight of the trailer (GVWR) would be (Dry Weight) + (Payload/cargo Capacity) + (Hitch/pin Weight). So from his post #1, (8416)+(2084)+(1165)=11665.

I suspect this is a travel trailer from the OP, but not sure. So, to get a reasonable estimate of tongue/pin weight:

Use 13% of 11665 for travel trailer tongue of 1516
Use 23% of 11665 for 5th wheel pin weight of 2683


Then, as outlined by Marshall, add weight of weight distribution hitch (for travel trailer) or 5th wheel hitch as additional cargo weight on the truck's payload capacity.

chuckster57
01-22-2021, 11:52 AM
The trailer GVWR is not provided in the OP nor is the make/model of the trailer. For an unknown trailer, the total weight of the trailer (GVWR) would be (Dry Weight) + (Payload/cargo Capacity) + (Hitch/pin Weight). So from his post #1, (8416)+(2084)+(1165)=11665.

I suspect this is a travel trailer from the OP, but not sure. So, to get a reasonable estimate of tongue/pin weight:

Use 13% of 11665 for travel trailer tongue of 1516
Use 23% of 11665 for 5th wheel pin weight of 2683


Then, as outlined by Marshall, add weight of weight distribution hitch (for travel trailer) or 5th wheel hitch as additional cargo weight on the truck's payload capacity.

GVWR would be dry weight plus cargo carrying capacity. Tongue/pin weight are NOT part of this.

Maineiacs
01-22-2021, 12:06 PM
...." the GVWR which from your numbers is 10,500 lbs. Take 13% of that for your hitch weight or 10,500 X .13 = 1,365 lbs."

".... take the ESTIMATED 1,365 and add then 120 lbs for the hitch for a total hitch weight on the back of the truck of 1,485 lbs."


Yes, this matches my worksheet calculations as well as the Keystone weight certificate. Thanks.

LewisB
01-22-2021, 12:09 PM
GVWR would be dry weight plus cargo carrying capacity. Tongue/pin weight are NOT part of this.

Drive your trailer onto a cat scale, put down the landing gear, drive your tow vehicle off the scale. Where did the hitch/pin weight go? Trailer GVWR must always include hitch/pin weight. It doesn’t just disappear.

Maineiacs
01-22-2021, 12:11 PM
The trailer GVWR is not provided in the OP nor is the make/model of the trailer. For an unknown trailer, the total weight of the trailer (GVWR) would be (Dry Weight) + (Payload/cargo Capacity) + (Hitch/pin Weight). So from his post #1, (8416)+(2084)+(1165)=11665.


The GVWR of my travel trailer is 10,500. It appears that the 1,165 figure listed in the spec sheet as "HITCH" is probably a Keystone estimate of what the pin weight would be. And at only 11% of the GVWR, it's fairly low and imprecise.

LewisB
01-22-2021, 12:44 PM
The GVWR of my travel trailer is 10,500. It appears that the 1,165 figure listed in the spec sheet as "HITCH" is probably a Keystone estimate of what the pin weight would be. And at only 11% of the GVWR, it's fairly low and imprecise.

Yup, my mistake - Sorry! For some reason I guess I had you confused with a Montana owner. My bad...

Maineiacs
01-22-2021, 01:02 PM
Yup, my mistake - Sorry! For some reason I guess I had you confused with a Montana owner. My bad...


No reason to apologize, this stuff is confusing to everyone. That's why I keep worksheets and cheat sheets on everything! Have a great day:)

chuckster57
01-22-2021, 01:55 PM
Drive your trailer onto a cat scale, put down the landing gear, drive your tow vehicle off the scale. Where did the hitch/pin weight go? Trailer GVWR must always include hitch/pin weight. It doesn’t just disappear.

When on the landing gear/axles the ENTIRE weight of the trailer is on the gear and axles.

When hitched to your truck, the specified pin weight is on your truck and the rest is on the axles.

CWtheMan
01-23-2021, 04:39 AM
The trailer manufacturer MUST establish a recommended tongue weight for vehicle certification purposes. Once the consumer takes control of the trailer all tongue weights are a result of trailer loading.

These are the two FMVSS standards the vehicle manufacturer MUST pass at vehicle certification.

Trailer GVWR 10K or less; 49 CFR 571.110 paragraph S9.2 On RV trailers, the sum of the GAWRs of all axles on the vehicle plus the vehicle manufacturer's recommended tongue weight must not be less than the GVWR.

Trailer GVWR 10K and above; 49 CFR 571.120 S10.2 On RV trailers, the sum of the GAWRs of all axles on the vehicle plus the vehicle manufacturer's recommended tongue weight must not be less than the GVWR.

Schbobby
01-24-2021, 06:00 AM
GVWR is normally tied to the tire pressure and axils and how much they can support without being overloaded on a camper. Many go over that amount and cause there own issues but blame the manufacturers and sales people!

LewisB
01-24-2021, 06:56 AM
When on the landing gear/axles the ENTIRE weight of the trailer is on the gear and axles.

When hitched to your truck, the specified pin weight is on your truck and the rest is on the axles.

Chuck,
Absolutely correct from a "payload" perspective. I'm not doing well at expressing it, but my point was that the pin weight is part of the GVWR of the trailer. When you are hooked up, it is true that the truck supports the pin weight as payload, but the total GVWR of the trailer INCLUDING the pin weight must be pulled by the truck. The truck hitch must be sized based on the full GVWR of the trailer, even though some of that weight will also be part of the truck's payload.

My Raptor, for example, has a GVWR of 17000. It has two 7000 axles and 3000 pin weight (numbers rounded off for example). From a payload perspective, the truck must support 3000 lbs of payload, but from a towning perspective, the truck must pull the entire GVWR of 17000.

Hope that makes sense. Thanks!

flybouy
01-24-2021, 08:20 AM
Let me see if I can simplify this a bit

Let's take the number 100. 1/4 of 100 is 25. The 100 would represent the TOTAL weight or GVW, the 25 represents 25% of the TOTAL GVW supported by the pin when hitched to the truck. If the GVW of the trailer is 100 and the pin is the 25 then there's 75 remaining from the total of 100 and the TOTAL is still 100 not 125.

In this example the 25 being the pin weight then the axles are supporting the remaining 75. Add the two together to get the 100.

chuckster57
01-24-2021, 08:24 AM
GVWR- the maximum designed weight of the entire trailer.

Pin weight- the amount of weight the trailer places on the truck. It is not part of the GVWR as it can change based on loading, GVWR doesn’t change.

My previous trailer had a 60 gallon fresh tank at the rear, and if it was full the pin was lighter. The GVWR never changed.

Hope this clears it up, if not then I guess we will agree to disagree.

jimborokz
02-07-2021, 02:31 PM
The listed hitch of pin weight by the manufacturer is a mystery to me. Not sure why they claim such low weights as it smacks of disingenuous marketing. Most folks who weight their campers are no where in the neighborhood of manufacturer claims and the common number that is found from actual scale weights in 10-15 percent (of gross weight) for bumper pulls and 20-25 percent (gross weight) for 5th wheels. The sales person at a dealership runs with the manufacturers weights and spews them like gospel and if a sales person sees a diesel powered truck will claim it can tow anything on the planet.

George, the specs on my 5er list pin weight as 20% of shipping weight. When I load it near the max and scaled it the pin weight came out to 20% of total trailer weight right on the button. I still would recommend using 22-23% when estimating just to be safe.

CWtheMan
02-07-2021, 05:49 PM
49 CFR 573.1 --- Definitions --- GVWR = The value specified by the manufacturer as the loaded weight of a single vehicle.

Weights are more simple when the proper nomenclatures are used. Tongue Weight is exclusively used in FMVSS standards is that portion of the trailer that is connected to a tow vehicle's bumper/bed ball.

The vehicle manufacturer MUST establish a recommended tongue weight for vehicle certification purposes. It's a test they must pass. Their recommended tongue weight when added to the vehicle's total certified GAWR values MUST NOT be less than GVWR. From then on, tongue weights are the responsibility of the owner/consumer.

Ballpark figures from whomever are guesstimates. If an owner wants an accurate tongue weight some scales will be needed to measure the tongue weight at various loads.

Since 2010, cargo must be properly documented. Great leeway has been given to trailer dealers to insure the trailer leaves the lot with the correct cargo capacity shown on the CCC label.

If you're interested in reading about cargo documentation it's explained in FMVSS 571.120 starting in paragraph S10.4.