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jmlocklin
01-07-2021, 06:46 AM
I am looking to upgrade my camper to an Outback 330RL. My truck is a F-250 Diesel. Before I buy I would like to make sure my truck can pull it safely. I am attaching pictures of the stickers of the truck and camper. I am no good with numbers so asking for a little help and advice. Any thoughts are welcomed.

JDDilly
01-07-2021, 07:20 AM
You have a cargo capacity of 1750 lbs and the hitch weight of that camper is 1100 lbs (from online search). That leave you with 650 lbs for fuel, DEF (if needed), people, pets, tools and any other items you carry in your truck. IMHO, it is too close to going over the cargo capacity of that truck.

wiredgeorge
01-07-2021, 07:21 AM
Take a picture of your yellow/white PAYLOAD placard in your door frame. I couldn't read much on the pictures you posted anyway. Example of payload placard:

flybouy
01-07-2021, 07:25 AM
You need to post the yellow/white sticker from your truck with the payload number. Your deisel will "pull" anything but the truck's limitation is how much it can "carry". The listed trailer at gross weight will have a tongue weight close to 1,400 lbs. Add another 110 or so for a good WDH and you'll have a 1,500 lb load before you climb in.

The truck sticker you posted is fuzzy so I don't know what model it is. The diesel, crew cab, 4x4 , and higher end models all reduce payload. If you look at my sig MY F250 is under with a tongue weight around 1,000 - 1,100 lbs., me the DW and dog. That's MY setup, your's WILL BE DIFFERENT.

The best advice I can give you is to load up your truck just like your going camping with ice chest, food, fireworks, firewood, whatever you normally take in the truck. Also place your hitch and WDH bars in the bed of the truck and go to a CAT scale or other scale. Take that scale weight and subtract it from that 10k gvw and you'll find out what's left of your load capacity. Use the gvw of the trailer to calculate the tongue weight. Take that number and multiply by .13 (13%) for a realistic approximated tongue weight. You won't know the ACYUAL tongue weight until you load it up and weight it at a scale.

flybouy
01-07-2021, 07:30 AM
You have a cargo capacity of 1750 lbs and the hitch weight of that camper is 1100 lbs (from online search). That leave you with 650 lbs for fuel, DEF (if needed), people, pets, tools and any other items you carry in your truck. IMHO, it is too close to going over the cargo capacity of that truck.

That cargo capacity is from the trailer NOT the truck. The hitch weight you site is an unrealistic weight of an empty trailer from the factory and should never be used to calculate the actual hitch weight.

jmlocklin
01-07-2021, 07:32 AM
Here is the other sticker from the truck.

jmlocklin
01-07-2021, 07:37 AM
Truck is an F250 Crew Cab, 4 wheel drive, long bed

jmlocklin
01-07-2021, 07:49 AM
Forgot to add that it is only my wife and I and a fat yorkie in the truck. We never carry anything else in the truck when we go camping. The main reason is that the truck bed is too high for me to easily climb into it to unload something out of it. That plus my age, 71, means I should not be climbing on anything anyway.

Roscommon48
01-07-2021, 07:58 AM
you'll do fine.

jmlocklin
01-07-2021, 07:58 AM
GVWR from trailer sticker is 10500 lb.

JDDilly
01-07-2021, 08:29 AM
My mistake, didn't look close enough at the image. I know the 1100 lbs is not realistic, I just wanted to show that it was too close using the cargo capacity I read, witch is wrong. I should have said that in my original post!

flybouy
01-07-2021, 08:43 AM
Here is the other sticker from the truck.

A load rating of 2,233 - 1,400 = 833 lbs. Remains of your load capacity. That 833 get's reduced by the weight of you, DW, the Yorkie, fuel, and anything else you have put in the truck since you bought it including floor mats, bed liner, tool box, tools, etc.

So no, I don't see that "you'll be fine". That's very poor advice in my opinion. Is it doable? Yes, if you constantly manage the weights. If you start loading in a couple hundred pounds of stuff for the grandkids, grandkids themselves, generator, etc. then you will have a balancing act.

My truck is a low end super cab not crew cab and has several hundred more pounds of payload than yours. I also have a fiberglass cap so I keep a close eye on the weights myself. I use a Sherline tongue scale to monitor the tongue weight if I'm adding things to the trailer say for a long trip.

I will just add this. That's a very long trailer and I can tell you from experience that there will be some places that can be a challenge to get into. The advantage of a travel trailer over a fiver is less weight on the truck. The disadvantage is less maneuverable and overall longer. I haven't found a cg that I couldn't maneuver in hut have found some very challenging ones if there are tight turns with obstacles like trees or large rocks. It can require some extra effort in pre planning your trip.

Hood luck and travel safe.

wiredgeorge
01-07-2021, 10:18 AM
Your tongue weight will be about 1300 lbs with the trailer loaded so as far as payload, you should be OK. I personally would never want to drag around a 37' bumper pull but my driving stinks on the best of days. Make sure you have a real good hitch to limit sway and such. And quit spoiling that Yorkie by feeing it table scraps and that will keep you within your payload limit.

sourdough
01-07-2021, 12:54 PM
Just thought I'd add the link to the trailer;

https://www.keystonerv.com/product/outback/luxury-travel-trailers/floorplans/330RL

This has been said before in this thread before as I recall so it is probably a repeat but with a 1750 payload (per truck sticker) and a 1365 tongue weight (13% of 10,500 trailer gvw) plus a 120 lb. wdh/sway (equalizer) you have 1750 - 1485 (1365 + 120) = 265 lbs. for you, your family, your puppy, tools, bottle of water etc. - and NO safety cushion. That's cutting it pretty thin.

The above has been said previously. Payload on the trailer is 1781 and you said you travel light BUT I guess I don't know what "light" is in an RV. Once you put in bedding, food, cookware, load the fridge, propane tanks, toiletries etc., "light" went out the window somewhere back there.:) Just keep those things in mind.

Canonman
01-07-2021, 02:28 PM
You could look at a similar trailer with a smaller footprint. Maybe 2 slides instead of three. Each slide is about 1,000 pounds. Or perhaps you're just being a good chess player, having the DW find the floor plan she absolutely LOVES; then have the forum recommend a (new) bigger truck. She can't blame you, it's the forum's recommendation, and you'll be the hero with "whatever makes you happy sweetheart". Sly dog:D

wiredgeorge
01-07-2021, 02:29 PM
Just thought I'd add the link to the trailer;

https://www.keystonerv.com/product/outback/luxury-travel-trailers/floorplans/330RL

This has been said before in this thread before as I recall so it is probably a repeat but with a 1750 payload (per truck sticker) and a 1365 tongue weight (13% of 10,500 trailer gvw) plus a 120 lb. wdh/sway (equalizer) you have 1750 - 1485 (1365 + 120) = 265 lbs. for you, your family, your puppy, tools, bottle of water etc. - and NO safety cushion. That's cutting it pretty thin.

The above has been said previously. Payload on the trailer is 1781 and you said you travel light BUT I guess I don't know what "light" is in an RV. Once you put in bedding, food, cookware, load the fridge, propane tanks, toiletries etc., "light" went out the window somewhere back there.:) Just keep those things in mind.

Not sure where you got the payload number; his Payload Placard says 2233 lbs combined.....

rhagfo
01-07-2021, 03:12 PM
A load rating of 2,233 - 1,400 = 833 lbs. Remains of your load capacity. That 833 get's reduced by the weight of you, DW, the Yorkie, fuel, and anything else you have put in the truck since you bought it including floor mats, bed liner, tool box, tools, etc.

So no, I don't see that "you'll be fine". That's very poor advice in my opinion. Is it doable? Yes, if you constantly manage the weights. If you start loading in a couple hundred pounds of stuff for the grandkids, grandkids themselves, generator, etc. then you will have a balancing act.

My truck is a low end super cab not crew cab and has several hundred more pounds of payload than yours. I also have a fiberglass cap so I keep a close eye on the weights myself. I use a Sherline tongue scale to monitor the tongue weight if I'm adding things to the trailer say for a long trip.

I will just add this. That's a very long trailer and I can tell you from experience that there will be some places that can be a challenge to get into. The advantage of a travel trailer over a fiver is less weight on the truck. The disadvantage is less maneuverable and overall longer. I haven't found a cg that I couldn't maneuver in hut have found some very challenging ones if there are tight turns with obstacles like trees or large rocks. It can require some extra effort in pre planning your trip.

Hood luck and travel safe.

Payload on sticker allows 150# for driver and a full tank of fuel.
DW and are not small, we have a 30# Beagle and her bedding in the back seat. I also have a in bed tool box full of some heavy and not so heavy stuff AND a 5th wheel hitch and adapter frame and we used 1,411# of our payload. I see it as doable within numbers, but likely close.

flybouy
01-07-2021, 03:15 PM
Payload on sticker allows 150# for driver and a full tank of fuel.

The sticker in the photo does not state that.

JRTJH
01-07-2021, 05:32 PM
The sticker in the photo does not state that.

Marshall,

The yellow sticker in Post #1 is the trailer sticker. The yellow sticker in Post #6 is the truck sticker. I did the same "double take" when I first read the initial post.

sourdough
01-07-2021, 07:08 PM
Not sure where you got the payload number; his Payload Placard says 2233 lbs combined.....

George you're right. Looked at the first placard and thought it was from the truck...my bad - and I am now past my bedtime....and puppy wants to go out...:)

flybouy
01-07-2021, 07:38 PM
Marshall,

The yellow sticker in Post #1 is the trailer sticker. The yellow sticker in Post #6 is the truck sticker. I did the same "double take" when I first read the initial post.

I know the the truck is post #6. What you quoted was my reply that the sticker does not say the payload includes a 150lb driver and full fuel tank. Seems like a lot of confusion in this thread.

sourdough
01-07-2021, 08:40 PM
I know the the truck is post #6. What you quoted was my reply that the sticker does not say the payload includes a 150lb driver and full fuel tank. Seems like a lot of confusion in this thread.

Seems to fit....and I was headed to bed....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9poCAuYT-s

SummitPond
01-08-2021, 07:25 AM
A load rating of 2,233 - 1,400 = 833 lbs. Remains of your load capacity. That 833 get's reduced by the weight of you, DW, the Yorkie, fuel, and anything else you have put in the truck since you bought it including floor mats, bed liner, tool box, tools, etc.
<snip>

Payload on sticker allows 150# for driver and a full tank of fuel.
DW and are not small, we have a 30# Beagle and her bedding in the back seat. I also have a in bed tool box full of some heavy and not so heavy stuff AND a 5th wheel hitch and adapter frame and we used 1,411# of our payload. I see it as doable within numbers, but likely close.

I thought I had read elsewhere on this forum (and as stated immediately above) that the curb weight included a 150# driver and a full tank of fuel.

I am not good at web searches, but I did find this: [citation (https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/571.110)]

Curb weight means the weight of a motor vehicle with standard equipment including the maximum capacity of fuel, oil, and coolant, and, if so equipped, air conditioning and additional weight optional engine.

This particular Code of Federal Regulations I cited above only applies to GVWR of 10K# or less; I did not go digging for the one applicable to GVWR greater than 10K#.

The Code of Federal Regulations, IMHO, is a spiderweb of interconnected and not-well-referenced laws. While I did not find any allowance for the driver's weight, I'm not saying it might be found somewhere else in this rat's nest of regulations. My hat is doffed to those who are clever enough to dig out the nuggets of information that are out there, but it appears to be beyond my current tolerance level!

Northofu1
01-08-2021, 07:59 AM
Just my opinion.
I personally would not tow a 37' / 38' bumper pull (especially) or 5er with my 2500.
I like some cushion in my numbers.

JRTJH
01-08-2021, 09:05 AM
Payload calculations, towing capacity and much of the "other stuff found in large print in advertising material" is a marketing tool and does not reflect any "standardized computation formula". How the payload is determined varies from manufacturer to manufacturer and from year to year. From what I can "SWAG" it's based more on "how do I beat the competition" or "how do I claim the best in class trophy"...

Here are a couple of quotes from the RAM Towing Guide 10/14/2019: https://www.ramtrucks.com/BodyBuilder/service/Image?imageId=MtQrP%2FFqLY5r%2Fest8MtGjGgHzAHGUTU0 WB3rWuqSY7YmQ2vEhuBWBHq1D%2BFDNq7c%0A

"Note: The truck curb weight values shown in
the Body Builders Guide represent the lightest
available version of that truck configuration
with no optional equipment. Actual produced
trucks frequently weigh several hundred
pounds more than the published values.
Note: The Maximum Trailer Weight and Payload in
the Towing Tables are based on one driver
weighing 150 lbs."

"These ratings must be
decreased by the weight of any optional
equipment, trailer hitch, cargo in the tow vehicle,
and passengers other than the driver. To
determine the GTW, subtract the tow vehicle curb
weight and 150 pounds (allowance for the
driver) from the GCWR"

In the 2019 Ford F-150 Owner's Manual, page 280:

"You decide
to go golfing. Is there enough load
capacity to carry you, four of your
friends and all the golf bags? You
and four friends average 220
pounds (99 kilograms) each and
the golf bags weigh approximately
30 pounds (13.5 kilograms) each.
The calculation would be: 1400 -
(5 x 220) - (5 x 30) = 1400 - 1100
- 150 = 150 pounds. "

In these examples, RAM does include 150 pounds for the driver and Ford does not as seen in the example of obtaining passenger weight (220x5) with no allowance to deduct as in the RAM calculations...

So, IMHO, every "payload sticker" from a different manufacturer will include THEIR version of the maximum and there is no "clearly defined set of rules" that mandates what they put on the sticker.... Or, if there is a "set of rules" it's not being applied equally by every manufacturer.....

Another example of "apples and oranges" depending on the marketing department's needs as much as the engineering department's capacities....

I'd imagine the 150 pound criteria applies "somewhere" just not "everywhere"...

Imagine for a moment, building a 60 passenger school bus. Using a 150 pound passenger criteria for "every seat" would be a "reasonable standard. If there were no standard and Blue Bird Bus Company built a 60 passenger bus with a payload of 3000 pounds (50 pounds per passenger seat) how would you define it suitable for use (based on seat capacity) for high schools ??? (Although it would likely be "ok for kindergarten)

I think, at least for me, it's a "given fact" that there is NO CRITERIA in how manufacturers rate their products in advertising brochures as long as they meet the minimum requirements for the class vehicle..... Beyond that, it's fair game to claim whatever the public will be gullible enough to believe.....

sourdough
01-08-2021, 09:46 AM
My thinking is that if you are close enough to payload max that 150lbs. is make or break....you're too close and need to be looking at a different plan.

jmlocklin
01-08-2021, 10:14 AM
Thanks for all the comments. I have decided to go ahead and get the camper. We only travel short distances to the two campgrounds we like. This trailer is only 3 ft longer than our present camper. As for maneuverability, I try my best to never backup. I can't even back up a boat trailer. I am envious of those who can, but I never learned how to do it. My plan is to get an F-350 once my 250 is paid for. Our present camper is a bunkhouse model that could sleep 9. Reason for buying it was that we thought our grandkids would love to go camping with us. We now know that will never happen because they are all too involved with their activities, sports, swimming, etc. Wishful thinking on our part. So we are getting a camper for just my wife and I, with the space that another couple could join us if we wanted them to. I'll add that our favorite campground is Desota State Park in Alabama. Lots of pull through sites. Easy access to hiking trails if that is some thing you like to do. We try to spend a few days there every month. The other park we like is Cheaha State park. Maybe we like those for the pull through sites. Did I mention that I hate to back up any trailer? Thanks again for all the comments.

flybouy
01-08-2021, 10:38 AM
Thanks for all the comments. I have decided to go ahead and get the camper. We only travel short distances to the two campgrounds we like. This trailer is only 3 ft longer than our present camper. As for maneuverability, I try my best to never backup. I can't even back up a boat trailer. I am envious of those who can, but I never learned how to do it. My plan is to get an F-350 once my 250 is paid for. Our present camper is a bunkhouse model that could sleep 9. Reason for buying it was that we thought our grandkids would love to go camping with us. We now know that will never happen because they are all too involved with their activities, sports, swimming, etc. Wishful thinking on our part. So we are getting a camper for just my wife and I, with the space that another couple could join us if we wanted them to. I'll add that our favorite campground is Desota State Park in Alabama. Lots of pull through sites. Easy access to hiking trails if that is some thing you like to do. We try to spend a few days there every month. The other park we like is Cheaha State park. Maybe we like those for the pull through sites. Did I mention that I hate to back up any trailer? Thanks again for all the comments.

Just a few thoughts when reading this. First, your truck doesn't know if you are 50 miles from home or 5,000 miles away. I just don't understand why folks say that. As for not backing up I think it would be in your best interest to learn how to do that. Chances are, some day you will be FORCED to back up and perhaps to make a reversal of direction.

Travel enough and some day you end up on a road where a bridge is out, or a fire is blocking the road, a serious accident where the road may be blocked for months. I've seen this on I95 in Philadelphia years ago when a gas tanker caught fire under a bridge. Personally I think that if you can't back the trailer up, not like a pro but at least with some proficiency then you shouldn't be towing it. JMHO

I wish you all the best. Stay safe.

Gegrad
01-08-2021, 11:17 AM
You should be good. Your payload is 2263. At fully loaded, that TT has a hitch weight of around 1365 lbs. That gives you plenty of cushion. Especially since you said you have been camping for awhile and don't carry anything in the bed due to your age and limitations. Not sure why others are thinking you are a newbie and will all of a sudden start carrying 500 lbs around in the bed after you stated you haven't carried anything in the bed for years, and the grandkids don't go with you due to their schedules. Carry on.

Some say you should always be way below your limits- the max limits were designed so that as long as you are below the thresholds you will be within the factory of safety that is built in. You certainly don't need to have anywhere near 1000 lbs of cushion; anywhere below the max payload and you will still be within the engineers' factory of safety. Its only when you go overweight are you encroaching on the factor of safety that is built in.

jmlocklin
01-08-2021, 12:13 PM
Okay I lied. I can back up the trailer, if I have to. I've even stayed in some back-in sites at a couple of places. Before I added a special driveway for my camper I would have to make 3-point turns in the front yard to park my present camper by the house. Was it easy? Heck no but given enough time I can do it. As I get older my frustration level maxes out quickly when I try to back up. There seems to be a mental problem between turning the front wheels of the truck and making the trailer go where I want it to. Some of that is compounded by the turning radius of my truck I think. Thanks again!

wiredgeorge
01-08-2021, 12:47 PM
Okay I lied. I can back up the trailer, if I have to. I've even stayed in some back-in sites at a couple of places. Before I added a special driveway for my camper I would have to make 3-point turns in the front yard to park my present camper by the house. Was it easy? Heck no but given enough time I can do it. As I get older my frustration level maxes out quickly when I try to back up. There seems to be a mental problem between turning the front wheels of the truck and making the trailer go where I want it to. Some of that is compounded by the turning radius of my truck I think. Thanks again!


Check out this gizmo:
https://www.towgo.com/homepage.html

Beast2017
01-10-2021, 05:57 AM
I am looking to upgrade my camper to an Outback 330RL. My truck is a F-250 Diesel. Before I buy I would like to make sure my truck can pull it safely. I am attaching pictures of the stickers of the truck and camper. I am no good with numbers so asking for a little help and advice. Any thoughts are welcomed.
Did you end up getting the 330rl? How is it on the road pulling that long a trailer? Reason I ask is I have that same trailer but I have an F350 6.7 CCSB - Plenty of payload 3476

jmlocklin
01-14-2021, 08:58 AM
Sorry I have not been back on in a couple of days. I will definitely check out the towgo. I also have not picked up the new camper yet, but will probably do it next week. My wife is really looking forward to our first trip in it. Compared to my present camper it is only an arms length longer and has so much more room. For us the bunk beds in our old camper was totally wasted space and no room for more than two people to sit. The new camper will be a welcomed change.

rowehg
01-14-2021, 10:49 AM
I almost never post, but I might be closest to your situation. 2017 F250 diesel and a 2017 328RL (GVWR of 10,500 lbs). I weighed, loaded up for camping, with these results:

TV only 7800 lbs (only carry clothes and groceries in the TV with us). The TV door sticker suggests 10,000 GVWR minus 2181 max cargo capacity = 7819, so close agreement with the scales I used.

TV+TT 17,560 lbs (TV 9060, TT axles 8500)

I use an Equalizer hitch, which transfers some pin weight forward to the steer axle and backward to the trailer axle, leaving an effective hitch weight (measured) of 1260 lbs. That is 13% of the (unhitched, loaded for camping with propane tanks, battery, gear and a rear mounted toolbox) 9,760 total trailer weight.

TV drive axle weight is 4780 lbs, well within the Rear GAWR of 6340 lbs. And steer axle loaded weight is 90% of unloaded weight (4280 vs 4680) so no adverse steering effect.

It pulls very stable, with no significant "push" from 18 wheelers or wind, and the standard full-size bed length gives a wheelbase that is pretty solid IMHO.

These numbers are all without 2 passengers weighing around 500 lbs combined (call it 403 for me, 97 for the DW, to make sure I don't have to sleep in the dog's house!). But with the 10,000 GVWR minus 9060 measured weight = 940 lbs remaining available payload, we can stay within the manufacturer specs with ourselves, groceries and clothes. I don't argue with those who advocate for the most safety margin possible, but I'm okay with using the sticker weight limits given the manufacturer's built-in safety margin and my experience with this setup over the past 3 years. And my speed cap is 65 mph no matter what.

I have upgraded the TT tires to give more safety factor, though.

I'm no expert but by analogy I suspect your F250 will suffice if you can achieve similar weights.

wiredgeorge
01-14-2021, 01:51 PM
Your premise about built in safety margins may be off the mark by a long shot but you explanation of cabin occupant weights shows you are a genius in wife. A little pandering goes a long way. While honesty is a virtue, so is making your missus smile.