That 10,000 lb limit on 3/4 ton TVs

[Rocketsled]

(as a followon to this (https://www.keystoneforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43903)thread)

After conferring with half the internet, I managed to get 10 links picked up on the Blue Ox WDH, threw the Kayak and 900 lbs of water in the trailer, filled the Truck's tank and went to Cat Scales.

Takeaways:
-Combo was transformed. I'm sure that's in no small part to the new tires on the trailer and the preload on the Hitch. Driving through the construction on I-25 between Denver and Monument was MUCH less stressful than it's been in the past.

-Cat Scales results:
Steer Axle: 4860 (limit: 5200)
Drive Axle: 5400 (6200)
Trailer Axle: 9960 (9500 UVW, 11,700 as loaded)
Gross Weight: 20220 (GCVWR 25,300)
Truck alone: 8500 (payload 1964, max tow 13,000)


Curiously enough, this matches well with the Better Weigh doodad, it registered right at 20k lbs. I then dropped the fresh water (106 gallons, 850 lbs) and it read 19,000 lbs. So for less than $100, it does a good job of showing relative weight and loading.

Now, crunching the numbers, facts and figures, all specs are well within all limits EXCEPT the sticker on the door for payload. It's overweight by 300 lbs.

Which brings me to the point of this thread. Payload is the number the truck can carry, People, gear, trailer hitch weight, based on how the truck is equipped.

But that number is stated for commercial/tax/governmental purposes. reference (http://cmvid.nisrinc.com/CMV_ID/GVWRClass.html)

If your vehicle and load weighs more than that, and you're a professional driver that places you in the next weight class requiring you to carry additional insurance and training.

It makes me think that the vehicle is safe, all things considered, and it's pretty much only an issue when packed to the gills. (I could see swapping out the water for my bike, which weighs nearly the same.) I'll be pulling some stuff out of the trailer that doesn't necessarily need to be there, some cast iron, the ladder, The big chunk of aluminum billet I rest the front pad on.

and 10 links gets a little bouncy when I drain the fresh tank.

[BrooksFam]

Good info as I'm interested in this system. I need to understand it better and what could affect its accuracy (if anything). Does TV suspension need to be stock, lift, air bags, tune, etc as it uses the VIN.

My OBD port already has one device plugged into it (power steps). Would a splitter/Y affect accuracy?

Links for good info?? I read some, but not enough I think.

[Rocketsled]

I have the better weigh and an OBD2 code reader, I just swap em out as I need them.

[KimNTerry]

If your GVWR on the federal safety certification is 10,000 then...
4860 Front + 5200 Rear = 10260 means you are 260 pounds over weight. If you are commercial and never get in an accident you could get fined or not be allowed to move until you are under 10K GROSS AND UNDER Trailer Gross. AFAIK, you can't register or pay more taxes for more than what the cert says. You can get a bigger truck.

If recreational and never get in an accident, you are pushing the bounds of controllability and safety. Suspension enhancements can help regarding controllability but not safety or ratings.

If you get in an accident, then "the Strongarm" or Mike Sawaya, or, or or, the multitude of Personal Injury Lawyers prevalent in Colorado may come after you "Get the picture"? Your insurance company will most likely pay what they are legally obligated to pay and then forget your name.

I recommend losing a few hundred pounds somehow. Move extras to the trailer or eliminate them. Passengers in a separate vehicle. I eliminated a bunch of tools I rarely or never use and an additional spare. I moved 25 pounds of tools and my compressor to the trailer. Now my truck has minimal tools, just me, the wife and our 20 pound dog.


This is just my 0.02 so take it however you want.

My next truck will be a 1 ton SRW (11,500 GVWR Not the 10K Package). I have to skip the dually as it won't fit in my garage and the HOA currently prohibits them unless garaged.

[LewisB]

(Partial quote...)

...Which brings me to the point of this thread. Payload is the number the truck can carry, People, gear, trailer hitch weight, based on how the truck is equipped.

But that number is stated for commercial/tax/governmental purposes. reference (http://cmvid.nisrinc.com/CMV_ID/GVWRClass.html)

If your vehicle and load weighs more than that, and you're a professional driver that places you in the next weight class requiring you to carry additional insurance and training.

It makes me think that the vehicle is safe, all things considered...

I don't understand how you can reach your stated conclusions and site the FHA "Law Enforcement Vehicle Identification Guide" as your authoritative reference. Yes, the GVWR and other items are used for identification and tax purposes. In some states, you CAN pay additional taxes and get approval for increased weight over your current class and into the next. However, this is a Tax issue, not a vehicle capability issue. Using your conclusions, a driver of a Class 1 vehicle could pay a whole lot more in taxes and tow as Class 8! Your saying with the same vehicle???

The "Payload" is the manufacturer's CERTIFICATION of what your specific vehicle is specifically designed to carry safely. That number has nothing to do with identification, taxes, etc. It's not a number arbitrarily picked off of a chart - it is the manufacturer's certification for your specific vehicle. If you exceed that number, you can be held liable. Worse yet, you are placing your vehicle, your trailer, and others at risk by operating outside of the designed and certified capabilities of the vehicle.

If "all specs are well within all limits EXCEPT the sticker on the door for payload", then all specs are NOT ok. You can't pick and choose when you want to adhere to the law. As others have suggested, you need to either lose some weight or get a truck with more payload capability. JMHO

[notanlines]

“But that number is stated for commercial/tax/governmental purposes. reference

If your vehicle and load weighs more than that, and you're a professional driver that places you in the next weight class requiring you to carry additional insurance and training. “
Rocket, you find this info on Facebook I guess? You can’t come on a legitimate website forum and repeat this drivel. None of that is true.

[Rocketsled]

If your GVWR on the federal safety certification is 10,000 then...
4860 Front + 5200 Rear = 10260 means you are 260 pounds over weight.

The axle weight ratings are 5200 and 6200


“But that number is stated for commercial/tax/governmental purposes. reference

If your vehicle and load weighs more than that, and you're a professional driver that places you in the next weight class requiring you to carry additional insurance and training. “
Rocket, you find this info on Facebook I guess? You can’t come on a legitimate website forum and repeat this drivel. None of that is true.


Commerical Motor Vehicle Classification (from https://www.thebalancesmb.com/commercial-motor-vehicle-classification-2221025 )

Light-Duty Trucks
The light-duty trucks category includes commercial truck classes 1, 2, and 3.

Class 1: This class of truck has a GVWR of 0–6,000 pounds or 0–2,722 kilograms.
Class 2: This class of truck has a GVWR of 6,001–10,000 pounds or 2,722–4,536 kilograms.
Class 3: This class of truck has a GVWR of 10,001–14,000 pounds or 4,536–6,350 kilograms.
Medium-Duty Trucks
The medium-duty trucks category includes commercial truck classes 4, 5, and 6.

Class 4: This class of truck has a GVWR of 14,001–16,000 pounds or 6,351–7,257 kilograms....

They then go on to say:
If a vehicle has a GVWR of more than 10,001 pounds and is used for a business, including nonprofits, then it is subject to federal and state safety regulations for the safe operation of commercial motor vehicles. Vehicles over this weight are required to stop at state weigh and inspection stations, and drivers must follow regulations concerning hours of service and medical examinations.

A driver does not need a CDL to operate vehicles in Class 1 through Class 6, but each one with a GVWR over 10,001 pounds has to be identified with the name of the company and the USDOT number.

I saw the original comment in a BigTruckBigRV video where they mention the Big Three all cap 3/4 ton at 10,000 regardless of actual vehicle capability, for the reasons I listed.


In responding to you, I found this: https://rvlifemag.com/load-capacity-of-3-4-ton-trucks/

Which backs me up.

[Javi]

The axle weight ratings are 5200 and 6200





Commerical Motor Vehicle Classification (from https://www.thebalancesmb.com/commercial-motor-vehicle-classification-2221025 )

Light-Duty Trucks
The light-duty trucks category includes commercial truck classes 1, 2, and 3.

Class 1: This class of truck has a GVWR of 0–6,000 pounds or 0–2,722 kilograms.
Class 2: This class of truck has a GVWR of 6,001–10,000 pounds or 2,722–4,536 kilograms.
Class 3: This class of truck has a GVWR of 10,001–14,000 pounds or 4,536–6,350 kilograms.
Medium-Duty Trucks
The medium-duty trucks category includes commercial truck classes 4, 5, and 6.

Class 4: This class of truck has a GVWR of 14,001–16,000 pounds or 6,351–7,257 kilograms....

They then go on to say:
If a vehicle has a GVWR of more than 10,001 pounds and is used for a business, including nonprofits, then it is subject to federal and state safety regulations for the safe operation of commercial motor vehicles. Vehicles over this weight are required to stop at state weigh and inspection stations, and drivers must follow regulations concerning hours of service and medical examinations.

A driver does not need a CDL to operate vehicles in Class 1 through Class 6, but each one with a GVWR over 10,001 pounds has to be identified with the name of the company and the USDOT number.

I saw the original comment in a BigTruckBigRV video where they mention the Big Three all cap 3/4 ton at 10,000 regardless of actual vehicle capability, for the reasons I listed.


In responding to you, I found this: https://rvlifemag.com/load-capacity-of-3-4-ton-trucks/

Which backs me up.

Actually in Texas (where BigTruckBigRV is based) you don't need a CDL to operate even a CLASS 8 Truck.. I held a Class A CDL for years and now hold a Class A non-CDL driver's license and to drive a Class 8 truck pulling an RV trailer all I'd need is an air-brake endorsement... which is an easy thing to get..

And F450's are capped at 14,000 GVWR

That BigTruckBigRV fellow is one smart fellow, but sometimes he gets stuff wrong...

If you really want to know... look up the applicable laws in the state in which you reside, because they all vary some from another..

[Rocketsled]

Point being: 10,000lbs and noncommercial - it's not a physical limitation of the truck, it's regulatory compliance issue.

[Javi]

Point being: 10,000lbs and noncommercial - it's not a physical limitation of the truck, it's regulatory compliance issue.

No... it is a weight limit which the government requires the manufacturer to set upon the truck when it leaves the plant... You can argue against that till the cows come home.. but you'll lose every time..

[Rocketsled]

No... it is a weight limit which the government requires the manufacturer to set upon the truck when it leaves the plant... You can argue against that till the cows come home.. but you'll lose every time..

It's not a physical safety issue. And from a governmental compliance issue, If I leave some of the cast iron at home, and move some weight aft of the axles, it's not remotely close to a road hazard.

[Javi]

It's not a physical safety issue. And from a governmental compliance issue, If I leave some of the cast iron at home, and move some weight aft of the axles, it's not remotely close to a road hazard.
You do know that in a legal sense your opinion which is what the above statement is... has no validity whatsoever.

[KimNTerry]

The white sticker on your truck the "Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Certification" says GVWR 10,000 and has your axle ratings. Those axle ratings combined are greater than the GVWR, this allows for proportional loading AND provides the required load reserve capacity. GVWR is the Max allowable weight your truck can legally weigh with both axles combined and is established by the vehicle manufacturer.

I have busted GVWR before and my truck did not catch fire nor was Law enforcement notified when I went over. I have "gotten away with it" and not been involved in an accident. I also understand that if I violate weight ratings I'm on my own. If involved in an accident, the lawyers can/will feast and my insurance may/may not pay out.

Personally, I do my absolute best to stay below those ratings, they're not arbitrary to inconvenience me. They have those limits and ratings to ensure a safe loaded driving and towing experience.

If you feel good about being "slightly over" GVWR that's fine, drive safe, and have fun camping. Just so you know, it's on you if you knowingly exceed weight ratings and the worst case scenario occurs.

[Rocketsled]

At the very least it’s incumbent upon me to not drive with a full fresh tank and garage. This was an intentional worst case scenario test.

I can also see why people move to a Modern battery. Two big 6v batteries on the tongue add a sizable chunk of weight.

[kfxgreenie]

It's not a physical safety issue. And from a governmental compliance issue, If I leave some of the cast iron at home, and move some weight aft of the axles, it's not remotely close to a road hazard.

Bingo.

You do know a lot of the forum members drive 5 MPH under the speed limit, at all times, even when not towing to maintain a safety factor to the government imposed laws. :popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::whistling::whistling:: whistling::bow::bow::bow:

[Ken / Claudia]

Rocketsled, You did a lot of research , but faulty in some points.
I suggest you take time with a DOT employee and have them explain some of your ideas. Or read through their booklets. Many are not easy to understand even after being trained by them.
The comm/tax/governmental chart is made by national institute for safety reseach INC. not DOT. get your facts from DOT booklets. I have never seen those charts handed out or explained that way in any of my DOT classes.

Like any times some people cross the comm vehicle rules with non comm vehicle rules, it appears your using both. They are apples to oranges.

Bottom line any vehicle can be a comm vehicle, on the lighter side think of a common taxi. It was a passenger vehicle when built and now used to earn money thus a comm vehicle. DOT does not give a rap until style of truck used as a comm vehicle reaches 10,001 lbs. loaded or empty.

If the yellow payload sticker or federal VIN sticker said "This rating is for non commercial vehicles" or The rating is for commercial vehicles" than you would be right. They do not print that.
Print out a Ford document from Ford with a contact to verify your guess that the 10,000 lb weight rating is only placed on a truck to comply with tax reasoning.
BTY, NISR is a private not government company. They train cops on methods used to conduct crash investigations and reports. They have taught classes to many cops, including me on the subject. DOT is the final say, they make the laws and say how to enforce them.
Edit: Yes I am aware states also have they own laws in addition to DOT.

[sourdough]

These threads could, and would, be humorous if we didn't have so many folks new to towing/rving trying to figure out trucks, weights and the safe way to do things. When that is the case, as it certainly is now, these things need be set straight and the members are doing a great job.

There is an extremely easy way to look at these things; simple and accurate. Determine load, that determines the truck. The truck is determined by the placards placed inside the door. Payload = x? That's the payload. GVW = x? That's the total vehicle weight. Same goes for gawr and gcvwr. EXTREMELY simple.

Now, is that 10k limit a commercial limit? A misleading, tax related limit? I would challenge anyone anywhere to find that in their documentation on their vehicle. It is there to classify that vehicle weight wise. Once classified it is what it is and that is what you are buying knowingly. Got a 5,6,7,8k load? Buy that 10k gvw truck. Got a 10k - 12k load? Get that 14k truck. Nowhere will you find any exclusion that says "doesn't apply if you aren't commercial", "doesn't apply if you add air bags or etc. etc. etc.".

Those numbers are put there for you to know and abide by. I've seen any number of state regs that always say it is the owners responsibility to know and abide by them. They don't say anything about "if you agree", or "unless you think it's a different value". They say you must adhere to them period. And they don't ask your opinion.

The payload sticker is a federally mandated sticker placed on a vehicle by the manufacturer. It is placed to TELL you what that truck is and what it can do. Your load too big for that 10k gvw/xxx payload? Buy a bigger truck. They are everywhere - get the truck that fits the load - they all have a sticker inside the door that tells you their capabilities and it's your responsibility to find it. You don't make the truck TRY to fit the load by skirting limits, making up excuses or dreaming up reasons that don't exist.

In the end, the government mandates the stickers. The manufacturer determines what the vehicle is capable of and places the stickers. Everything is now placed on the shoulders of the consumer. It is their job to KNOW those numbers and ABIDE by them. There are countless reams of regs, laws and associated documents explaining end user requirements. Reading an article in Bubba Knows Trucks, or RedBook or USA Today won't cut the mustard if/when you have a situation where law enforcement gets involved and sifts through all the "who did whats and why". As for me, I'm not betting my way of life, or my life (or DWs) because I feel I need to disregard a federal sticker that says I "must not exceed" when there's a truck sitting out there in the lot that won't put me in that position.

[Rocketsled]

I think y'all are missing something kinda critical.


It's over the payload limit.

By an amount that's easily rectified.

On a trailer that's loaded to its gills.

And determined by testing.

Because I cared enough to find out.


Do I sound like the guy that's 1000 lbs over without a WDH pulling a grade in a 1/2 truck? Because that's not how I'm trying to sound.

I have an engineering background. I have an automotive background. I'm looking at the various numbers involved and I specified the truck, after purchasing the trailer, to have a factor of safety.

Rearranging and removing some of the load will get the trailer within the legislated capabilities of the truck, which are well within the physical capabilities of the truck. If you don't think I'm going to do that, you haven't been paying attention.

But ask yourself:
All of the manufacturers use 10,000 lbs as the max GVWR, regardless of motor, bed length, engine, cab and initial curb weight.

Don't you think that's odd?

(FWIW, I think I got in trouble because I emptied the tank for the toy fuel station....hanging nearly 200 lbs of gas way out on the caboose end of the trailer would surely take an equivalent amount of weight off the hitch.)

[sourdough]

As far as the 10k gvw being "odd"...it's a government mandated, binding limit. It is there and is what it is. If I don't like it (because it will be there when I buy it) I can buy a truck with a different one. Sort of like - do I understand why some highways in FL straight as far as the eye can see will have a speed limit of 45 - no I don't. I do know however that the trooper sitting out there in those trees will surely take my money if I decide to whiz thru there at a TX speed of 75. It is what it is.

In your initial post you started off questioning the validity of the 10k gvw limits and talked about it for several posts. Then you did change the direction of the conversation to removing weights to eliminate the 260lbs. excess weight. THAT is the answer to your situation. Like you have mentioned, the removal of 260lbs., especially if you are carrying lots of liquids, shouldn't be difficult. At that point you would be within your weight specs. Realize removing 200lbs. from the "caboose" of the trailer won't transfer 200 lbs. off the tongue and that gasoline weighs 6.3lbs per gallon for calculation purposes.

You said you want to be within all the numbers and you are trying to get to that point; that's a good thing. Good luck on finding and removing that 260.
I also believe I will look into the better weigh if it is that accurate.

[Javi]

I think y'all are missing something kinda critical.


It's over the payload limit.

By an amount that's easily rectified.

On a trailer that's loaded to its gills.

And determined by testing.

Because I cared enough to find out.


Do I sound like the guy that's 1000 lbs over without a WDH pulling a grade in a 1/2 truck? Because that's not how I'm trying to sound.

I have an engineering background. I have an automotive background. I'm looking at the various numbers involved and I specified the truck, after purchasing the trailer, to have a factor of safety.

Rearranging and removing some of the load will get the trailer within the legislated capabilities of the truck, which are well within the physical capabilities of the truck. If you don't think I'm going to do that, you haven't been paying attention.

But ask yourself:
All of the manufacturers use 10,000 lbs as the max GVWR, regardless of motor, bed length, engine, cab and initial curb weight.

Don't you think that's odd?

(FWIW, I think I got in trouble because I emptied the tank for the toy fuel station....hanging nearly 200 lbs of gas way out on the caboose end of the trailer would surely take an equivalent amount of weight off the hitch.)
Frankly, the vibe (if you would) you give off is that you think you can do whatever you want and conventional wisdom or legality be damned.. If indeed you do have an engineering background and/or an automotive mechanical background I doubt that you'd feel that way.

Good luck in your endeavors, I feel that you might need it...

[LewisB]

(partial quote....)
Which brings me to the point of this thread. Payload is the number the truck can carry, People, gear, trailer hitch weight, based on how the truck is equipped...But that number is stated for commercial/tax/governmental purposes....If your vehicle and load weighs more than that, and you're a professional driver that places you in the next weight class requiring you to carry additional insurance and training...It makes me think that the vehicle is safe, all things considered...

In your original post #1, you tell us you are over your payload weight and YOU brought this up because YOU think payload is a tax issue, not a vehicle capability issue. And you conclude your vehicle is safe because you think that is how it should be interpreted. You have disagreed with most responses to your original post. Now, you want us to think you are being "reasonable" and "we just don't get it"?

I suspect you know this is not a complex issue. Vehicles are certified by the manufacturer to be able to handle a specific load. The numbers that apply to you in this case are the certification labels (payload) on your vehicles certification stickers. In order to be legal, you must use your vehicle without exceeding ANY of the manufacturer's certification levels; Gross Vehicle Weight, Gross Combined Weight, Front & Rear Axle Weights, etc. must all be in compliance. It doesn't matter "what you think" about this and there is very little "interpretation" needed. You have actually done what is needed by weighing the vehicle then looking at the numbers. They are either over or under!

Yes, local/state tax codes and license requirements will be impacted by the manufacturer's certifications. Those codes and requirements will vary widely by location. It doesn't matter what you think about that, how creatively you try to interpret it, or whether or not you agree with them. NONE of this changes the vehicle's capabilities associated with the manufacturer's certification.

You are either within all the physical design requirements and certifications; or you are not. The Payload Certification stickers are the final arbitrator between legal and illegal - it is not the tax code or anyone's opinion. Your most recent post should have been your first post. You weighed your vehicle, found it over weight, and need to reduce some weight. That's a good story and one we all can associate with!

No, it is not odd that the manufacturers attempt to make their vehicles fit within certain tax codes; it's called competition and marketing. But what you call the "legislative" requirements have nothing to do with determining your specific vehicles' capabilities - those are simply government's way of getting their pound of your flesh. Again, something we either live with or move to a new area. Just sayin'...

[Ken / Claudia]

3/4 tons having GVWR all at 10,000 GVWR maybe not be odd at all. Currently if that is the case it could be a only target number they want. Or what the build stats they are wanting as a goal.

Look back a few years.

Just a few years ago Fords were 8600/8800 range in 3/4 tons ,1 ton SWR 9900.
Now my 2013 truck is lower than a 2020. The 2013 is a f350 at 11,500.
I beleive my buddies 2017 is above 12,000 GVWR. It's still a pickup, used as a personal pickup and licensed as a personal pickup. If he was hauling new RVs to dealers as a job. It would be reclassified as a comm truck.
RVs have gotten much bigger in my life as too the pickups that pull them. What's the next 3/4 ton GVWR. I bet more and not less.

[Rocketsled]

My demeanor over the course of the thread has changed from 'I think it's a BS number' (It is, from a purely engineering capabilities and Safety Factor standpoint), but that's academic. It's overweight and the options are:

1. Buy a bigger truck...which is a non-starter seeing as how I can easily
2. Lighten the load for free.

Please note I have not mentioned anything about airbags and other bandaids. The goal is to have a sorted trailer and TV.

And the main issue is the weight of the trailer pressing down on the hitch, all other weights and measures are well within spec. So you can remove weight from the front, and you can also add weight to the back of the trailer (within reason, I've seen the youtube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mW_gzdh6to)), (e.g. 30 gallons of fuel) will reduce the weight on the hitch. Loading all of our luggage in the back of the trailer, rather than the bed of the truck, will help things. I hate to do it, because I just dropped a ton of money on two 6v batteries, but a LiFePO4 battery would lighten the weight.

The Better Weigh has seen the total rig weight fluctuate nearly 2000 lbs between 'fully empty winter storage' and 'fully loaded for a multistate trip', so there's definitely some experimentation to be had.

[sourdough]

My demeanor over the course of the thread has changed from 'I think it's a BS number' (It is, from a purely engineering capabilities and Safety Factor standpoint), but that's academic. It's overweight and the options are:

1. Buy a bigger truck...which is a non-starter seeing as how I can easily
2. Lighten the load for free.

Please note I have not mentioned anything about airbags and other bandaids. The goal is to have a sorted trailer and TV.

And the main issue is the weight of the trailer pressing down on the hitch, all other weights and measures are well within spec. So you can remove weight from the front, and you can also add weight to the back of the trailer (within reason, I've seen the youtube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mW_gzdh6to)), (e.g. 30 gallons of fuel) will reduce the weight on the hitch. Loading all of our luggage in the back of the trailer, rather than the bed of the truck, will help things. I hate to do it, because I just dropped a ton of money on two 6v batteries, but a LiFePO4 battery would lighten the weight.

The Better Weigh has seen the total rig weight fluctuate nearly 2000 lbs between 'fully empty winter storage' and 'fully loaded for a multistate trip', so there's definitely some experimentation to be had.


You are where I was once. I was 200lbs. over payload and it drove me crazy because that's the way I am. You are also proposing to do exactly what I did; weigh, remove, weigh, remove...go on trip - Man I wish we had the xyz, repeat. Go home unload. Next trip repeat. Did that twice and it was a no brainer for me, the answer was sitting on the truck lot and all they wanted was a check and the weight issue went away....until DW wanted a change:facepalm: I'm still in good shape but I like a 10-15% cushion on payload and not sure what will be required to achieve that since I've not had it long enough to scale it...:(

[JRTJH]

At the very least it’s incumbent upon me to not drive with a full fresh tank and garage. This was an intentional worst case scenario test.

I can also see why people move to a Modern battery. Two big 6v batteries on the tongue add a sizable chunk of weight.

People do that all the time... (drive with a full fresh tank and garage or with two big 6v batteries on the tongue)....

They "almost always have (or buy) a bigger truck" especially after they tow across a CAT scale.....

[markcee]

You are where I was once. I was 200lbs. over payload and it drove me crazy because that's the way I am. You are also proposing to do exactly what I did; weigh, remove, weigh, remove...go on trip - Man I wish we had the xyz, repeat. Go home unload. Next trip repeat. Did that twice and it was a no brainer for me, the answer was sitting on the truck lot and all they wanted was a check and the weight issue went away....until DW wanted a change:facepalm: I'm still in good shape but I like a 10-15% cushion on payload and not sure what will be required to achieve that since I've not had it long enough to scale it...:(

Waaaaaay off topic, but happy belated anniversary Danny & Susan! (I noticed your counter went up a year). Thank you for all the great advice you provide!

[sourdough]

Waaaaaay off topic, but happy belated anniversary Danny & Susan! (I noticed your counter went up a year). Thank you for all the great advice you provide!


Thank you Mark. Been a blessed, happy, wonderful ride.

[Rocketsled]

Oh we’ll upgrade, eventually, we say it’s 10 years out, but that was 2 years ago. The goal now ;because I’m a cheap bastard. :) ) is to make the status quo work. It’s easy to dismiss the costs when upgrading one or the other or both. Sales taxes, hitch gear, personalizing the trailer.

[sourdough]

Oh we’ll upgrade, eventually, we say it’s 10 years out, but that was 2 years ago. The goal now ;because I’m a cheap bastard. :) ) is to make the status quo work. It’s easy to dismiss the costs when upgrading one or the other or both. Sales taxes, hitch gear, personalizing the trailer.


I completely understand where you are...BTDT more than once. And, cheap? I'm a bang for the buck kind of guy and things have to prove their worth to me for me to consider spending my money....I am cheap, about some things. Others I don't care.

Safety, peace of mind, happiness; those things don't have a bang for the buck, they just are. I open the checkbook accordingly. Mull that over while you worry, repeatedly, about what to remove, what you'll miss, wish you had, at what point are you're going to be illegal...unsafe? Watch DW and the kids while driving....is that cargo worth riding the razor's edge??

[dutchmensport]

I personally think the listed weights on any vehicle (as far as payload and towing capacity go), is simply the manufacturer's attempt to COYA. Granted, there may be some federal regulations for posting as such, but by posting the weights, the manufacture is saying, ...

As long as you stay within this limitation, your vehicle is safe from failure. So if something goes wrong, yes ... we the manufacturer are liable. However, we all know the vehicle is capable of handling more. But (more) brings the weights closer to the edge of failure. Exactly where that failure is, well,... it's out there. But we're not saying, because we know, whatever weights we post, we know the owner may go over. So, if they go over the "safe" weight and then there is a failure, we are not going to take responsible. It's all on the owner now. (But in reality, we all know the vehicle can handle much more.)

It's exactly the same way speed limits are posted on the highway. It's posted 55, but everyone drives 70 and the police let everyone get away with it. However, IF a mishap occurs, then you can be ticked for speeding too. The road is highly capable of handling 70 mph traffic, but 55 is the "safe" speed. Yet, folks speed over the posted limit all the time.

Your truck can probably handle an additional 300 pounds with no issues ever. But, in the long term, if issues do arise, just remember, you stepped outside the manufacturers "safety" numbers. You can't lay fault at the manufacturer. And yes, eventually there is truly a limit where too much weight is simply too much. Where that is, is truly anyone's guess.

[Rocketsled]

Sure. We're all adults here (at least superficially) and I'll take the blame for failure there. I learned that racing cars a time or two ago.

I let this peter out because most everything's been said. It's not like I'm going to swap the truck before the weekend is out, I'll just leave some stuff at home while I sort out what really truly can stay at home.

[dutchmensport]

..... It's not like I'm going to swap the truck before the weekend is out, I'll just leave some stuff at home while I sort out what really truly can stay at home.

On my current fifth wheel and tow vehicle, I am well, well within weights. But your comment here got me to laughing a bit (about myself), because it seem every trip we go on, week-end or longer, I'm juggling things in and out of the trailer or bed of the truck to keep from having so much junk hauled around all the time.

For example, we have a 35 gallon extra water container with a water transfer pump for times when we know we will not have access to water. We have 2 generators for those times we anticipate no shore power electricity. We have a Blue Tote for hauling waste from the holding tanks when we don't have full hook-up. The list is quite extensive of all the "junk" we've got.

Our's is not because of weight, it's driven by the type of camping we do for the next trip. Someday, I may own a Semi Truck flat bed and simply put the camper on top of it. Then I can bring ALL my junk!

Just a parting FYI: Rotating the "junk" keeps the "junk" to a minimum. And face it, space in any RV sells at premium prices!

[Rocketsled]

Bumper-pull toy haulers don't have a lot of space...which means the stuff gets pitched in the garage....which means I have to unload the garage when we get to camp and when we clean up. which makes me crabby if I have to move too much of it.

[dronning]

A person's (mis)interpretation of the law will never hold up in court. If you misinterpreted the law on what GVWR means or how it is applied then if you are overloaded then you are open to litigation if you are involved in an accident.

Even turning your 1500 into being 3/4 or even 1ton capable with all the spring, axle, tire upgrades even boxing the frame WILL NOT change your GVWR. You might be capable of hauling considerably more - even safely. BUT unless you're the proprietor of a certified coach builder, legally speaking there's no way to increase your truck's gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR). This rating comes from the vehicle manufacturer, and is equal to the truck's curb weight plus towing capacity plus cargo capacity.

- Dave

[QCMan]

To the OP: do you realize that you have now documented your overweight condition and willingness to flaunt maximum weights? A statement given publicly can and may be used in a court of law as it is not here say and given willingly. Think about that as you are giving a statement at the accident scene. Even if the accident is not your fault.
Please post any future itinerary on here so we can make sure we are not on the road with you. Good luck.

[Rocketsled]

Good lord, let’s all just live in ignorance then. Because asking the dealership sure didn’t result in the transfer of knowledge.

I think it’s been determined in this thread that, while the vehicle is physically capable of handling the load, that it’s still breaking the law due to an arbitrary 10,000 threshold, it would result in legal liability and that the thread opener (me) is working to make it legal, but by all means, add more fuel to the fire.

[wiredgeorge]

Good lord, let’s all just live in ignorance then. Because asking the dealership sure didn’t result in the transfer of knowledge.

I think it’s been determined in this thread that, while the vehicle is physically capable of handling the load, that it’s still breaking the law due to an arbitrary 10,000 threshold, it would result in legal liability and that the thread opener (me) is working to make it legal, but by all means, add more fuel to the fire.


Everyone who tows with a truck not up to snuff seems to take a rationalization road. I don't think it is illegal to pull a camper over the manufacturers stated payload limit but as others have pointed out, if there is an accident, the potential for you falling victims of predatory lawyers isn't worth the risk. Do what you like Rocketsled, I personally don't really care but to keep defending an indefensible OPINION is a waste of breath as you will do what you wish and those that don't agree will do as they wish.

[markcee]

Good lord, let’s all just live in ignorance then. Because asking the dealership sure didn’t result in the transfer of knowledge.

I think it’s been determined in this thread that, while the vehicle is physically capable of handling the load, that it’s still breaking the law due to an arbitrary 10,000 threshold, it would result in legal liability and that the thread opener (me) is working to make it legal, but by all means, add more fuel to the fire.

Arbitrary means random or on a whim. I don't agree that the manufacturers just choose a GVWR number out of a hat and run with it. And even if they did, IT'S REQUIRED not suggested that it be followed. I've been on the short end of this conversation before and to me it appears that this one is simply an attempt to justify a particular truck is plenty for the job even though the numbers don't back it up.

[Rocketsled]

Do what you like Rocketsled, I personally don't really care but to keep defending an indefensible OPINION is a waste of breath as you will do what you wish and those that don't agree will do as they wish.

What I've done, is measure and adjust so I'm not overweight. But folks gloss over a now overlong thread and assume I haven't taken the advice to heart.

My last Cat Scale verified weight has the Front and Rear Axle weight at 10020.


Arbitrary means random or on a whim. I don't agree that the manufacturers just choose a GVWR number out of a hat and run with it. And even if they did, IT'S REQUIRED not suggested that it be followed. I've been on the short end of this conversation before and to me it appears that this one is simply an attempt to justify a particular truck is plenty for the job even though the numbers don't back it up.

As I've said, All three manufacturers use 10,000 regardless of equipment. It doesn't mean exceeding it doesn't violate the law.

[sourdough]

What I've done, is measure and adjust so I'm not overweight. But folks gloss over a now overlong thread and assume I haven't taken the advice to heart.

My last Cat Scale verified weight has the Front and Rear Axle weight at 10020.




As I've said, All three manufacturers use 10,000 regardless of equipment. It doesn't mean exceeding it doesn't violate the law.


Rocketsled sounds like you are aware and doing what you can to mitigate the issue of being overweight. However one wants to look at the established weights for a vehicle, they are there and binding.

I did not re read all the posts but I believe you said a different vehicle was not in your future for 10 years or something like that (been a while). If that's the case the scale needs to be your close friend and juggling ("stuff"/"load") a way of life. Good luck. It is a true PITA I can guarantee.

[Rocketsled]

Paradoxically, loading the (back of) the trailer heavier gets the numbers to work better...takes weight off the tongue.

[sourdough]

No matter where you put the weight you need to keep the correct percentage on the pin/tongue and then maintain gvw, payload etc. to maintain stability. In theory you could actually load everything in the rear of the trailer and reduce the actual truck only weight.....but I wouldn't go anywhere....or maybe you couldn't with the rear tires in the air? Just sayin..

[Rocketsled]

No matter where you put the weight you need to keep the correct percentage on the pin/tongue and then maintain gvw, payload etc. to maintain stability. In theory you could actually load everything in the rear of the trailer and reduce the actual truck only weight.....but I wouldn't go anywhere....or maybe you couldn't with the rear tires in the air? Just sayin..

Oh yes. But we’re dealing with relative percentages here, it’s still a 11,500 lbs trailer, it’s just putting ‘only’ 1600 lbs on the tongue instead of 1750...and with 10 links on the WDH instead of 9, which makes it harder to judge as well.

I just threw $4000 worth of axle, MORryde parts and tires at it. I’m going to treat it carefully.

[travelin texans]

Paradoxically, loading the (back of) the trailer heavier gets the numbers to work better...takes weight off the tongue.

Paradoxically RVs don't have sufficient storage areas on the rear to load significantly to affect the tongue/pin weight. Even toyhaulers with toys loaded behind the axles it's not pound for pound off the hitch.
If you're talking utility trailers such as the manufacturer uses to arrive at the overly inflated max tow weights published then yes you can shift weights around front to rear to come up with whatever hitch weight you want, but can't do so in the rv towing world.

[Rocketsled]

You’re telling me 300 lbs worth of gas, 6 feet behind the rear axle won’t have an effect 20 forward of the axle? (I guess it could just get sucked up in the axle/weight equalization...)

[sourdough]

Oh yes. But we’re dealing with relative percentages here, it’s still a 11,500 lbs trailer, it’s just putting ‘only’ 1600 lbs on the tongue instead of 1750...and with 10 links on the WDH instead of 9, which makes it harder to judge as well.

I just threw $4000 worth of axle, MORryde parts and tires at it. I’m going to treat it carefully.


Watch sucking those links up. Used one of those chain things on my first 2 trailers. Once, when I thought I wanted to "lighten the load" I sucked those links up. Hit a bump in the road and my back tires just started spinning because I had shifted TOO much weight.

[Rocketsled]

Interesting. Dealership said “use 8, 9 if you load a bike in back”, I found that didn’t leave the 3-4 links between the springs and trailer the documentation recommended. Tried 10 with a full fresh tank (100 gal) and everything ran GREAT. With the tank empty, 9 links seemed to work well.

I’ll revisit after the suspension upgrades in the spring (heh)

[gearhead]

I was over payload with a previous truck and 5th. I experimented with weights a bit. I weighed with a full tank of water, 50 gallons at the rear. Lets call it 400# of water. I parked and drained the water tank dry. Re-weighed and lost 100# off the pin. It's not a 1:1 ratio.