Wouldn't the circuit breaker trip?

[mikec557]

2020 Cougar 26RBSWE
Wouldn't the circuit breaker trip?

Here's what I think I know.

First clue is the refrigerator won't work on 120vac, at least not while plugged into the outlet behind the fridge, the outlet intended for it. But it does work on 120vac if plugged in elsewhere.

My $5 electrical tester (yellow with two amber and one red light) indicates that the outlet behind the fridge has the Hot and Ground reversed. Turns out every outlet on that circuit breaker reads the same. There's 4 outlets and one whip in the slide out, all on one circuit breaker labeled GEN. (I don't have a generator, nor is there anywhere you could have installed a generator.)

I visually checked the end of the whip in the slide out to see if wires were shorted to each other. They are not. That factory installed whip of 120vac is probably intended to feed a future outlet behind the two recliners, should the owner ever want to upgrade to theater seating.

The backs of the 4 outlets are going to be a bxxch to open. There are 4 separate spring loaded plastic fingers holding the back on each of them.

But for now, my question is, how is it possible that the Hot could be misplaced onto the Ground and neither this GEN circuit breaker trips, nor any other circuit breaker trips?

If the Hot is connected to the common Ground bar, wouldn't all circuits with their Neutral connected to the Ground bar short out?

Is my logic wrong here somewhere? If you were going to search for a mis-wired outlet, how would you approach this?

TIA
Mike

[flybouy]

From your description it sounds like you may have a string of “daisy chained” outlets on a gfi that’s miswired . Pull the gfi and look at the load side with the power off of course.

The "gen” is most likely short for general outlets not generator.

[bfam5]

I wonder if you have this situation.
https://youtu.be/0lrOjbDwvWQ

[mikec557]

From your description it sounds like you may have a string of “daisy chained” outlets on a gfi that’s miswired . Pull the gfi and look at the load side with the power off of course.

The "gen” is most likely short for general outlets not generator.

I assume they are daisy chained in away, but none of them are GFI. The 4 outlets and 1 whip are all on one circuit. The breaker panel is located about midway between the farthest forward and farthest rearward outlets.

If they were truly daisy chained, they would have "wasted" about 8ft+ of Romex or more to double back, say from the rear most outlet to go to the most forward outlets, going right past the breaker panel where the circuit began. I'm not saying they wouldn't do that, but if there was a way to make a junction box inaccessible it would save them on the wire and introduce a place to mis-wire hot and ground.

I think I have to start prying off the outlet backs, but we're on a trip and I don't really want to dig in until we'll be somewhere for awhile.

BTW, I didn't mention earlier, I also visually verified that the wires from the Romex do go to the proper locations. Hot to breaker, neutral to neutral buss bar, and ground to ground buss bar. I think the wires have to be crossed at an outlet (or unseen junction box like where the Romex connects to the stranded wire they run out to the slideout) or maybe shorted somehow in the wall or belly.

[mikec557]

I wonder if you have this situation.
https://youtu.be/0lrOjbDwvWQ

Well that's fascinating. I'm just thinking out loud here, but I think I'd have to have a load turned on somewhere for this to be the case. Which would mean there's more than the 4+1 outlets... that is, a 6th item on that circuit. I'll have to do some more investigating. We leave tomorrow morning for a campground in Pendleton Oregon. I'll see what I can discern while we're there.

Edit: that would also explain why no breaker trips when/if a hot wire was connected to the ground buss bar. And, I thought it would be tough to really cross wire an outlet, it would be easy to not get a good seating for one of the two neutral wires.

Thanks
Mike

[hankpage]

Does your unit have an outside fridge?? May be a GFIC outlet there or the load from the fridge itself??? JM2¢, Hank :confused:

[mikec557]

Does your unit have an outside fridge?? May be a GFIC outlet there or the load from the fridge itself??? JM2¢, Hank :confused:

Thanks Hank. As it turns out, there is an outside refrigerator (which we removed) and an outlet for it. But that's my work around. I made a short extension cord and plugged the inside refrigerator into that location. And that outlet has to be on a different circuit because I've been keeping the Gen circuit breaker off and the inside fridge is on.

[mikec557]

Finally got to where I can do further investigating...

After watching that YouTube in which a true open neutral is falsely reported as a Hot/Grd reverse, I decided to start back at the beginning.

I think I had the fridge plugged in when I tested the outlets before. This time I made sure that nothing was plugged into the 4 outlets. Yep, now the error is reported as an open neutral. When I plugged the TV into one of the 4 outlets, the error immediately changed to Hot/Grd cross. The TV drawing power took the place of the fan turning on in the video.

I feel better that the line worker probably made a bad neutral connection rather than confused a black wire for bare copper. Not that that changes what I have to do. I still need to crack open each outlet. While I will still try to test every connection in the outlet, I think I'll be looking for a bad neutral connection.

I don't know where they mated the Romex to the stranded wire whip for the slide out. I guess it has to be either in the inaccessible attic or in the underbelly. Here's to hoping the problem is in one of the outlets.

[flybouy]

The slide out 120v outlet feed is typically under the slide out. I'd go for the "easy" stuff first by pulling each outlet out and confirming connections.

[wiredgeorge]

To pull out a box, the screws holding the cover are meant to turn a half turn so the little plastic paddles that are spring loaded turn 90 degrees to vertical. There are probably no boxes; only the cover. It is also possible that wire(s) intended to be pressed into the blades on the outlet fixture are not inserted well. This is often the case with this type electrical outlet.

[Bill-2020]

To pull out a box, the screws holding the cover are meant to turn a half turn so the little plastic paddles that are spring loaded turn 90 degrees to vertical. There are probably no boxes; only the cover. It is also possible that wire(s) intended to be pressed into the blades on the outlet fixture are not inserted well. This is often the case with this type electrical outlet.

I've changed every outlet in ours to a residential outlet, eliminating the blade type (in my industry it's called an IDC, or insulation displacement connection, think ribbon cables in electronics). Too many problems over time with them for that kind of power. BTDT with bad connections. Son-in-law had one go bad over the kitchen sink while using the coffee maker... guess what got hot faster... Took it out, opened it up and showed him what was wrong and why. He has yet to go check the others or ask for help doing it. :banghead: Some just don't learn I suppose. ...Drag a horse to water... blah blah blah

[LHaven]

I feel better that the line worker probably made a bad neutral connection rather than confused a black wire for bare copper. Not that that changes what I have to do. I still need to crack open each outlet.

If every outlet is showing the same issue, the problem is almost certainly in the first bad or last good outlet starting at the breaker box. No reason to start with the ones at the end of the line, and once you have found the bad tap, you're done.

[wiredgeorge]

I've changed every outlet in ours to a residential outlet, eliminating the blade type (in my industry it's called an IDC, or insulation displacement connection, think ribbon cables in electronics). Too many problems over time with them for that kind of power. BTDT with bad connections. Son-in-law had one go bad over the kitchen sink while using the coffee maker... guess what got hot faster... Took it out, opened it up and showed him what was wrong and why. He has yet to go check the others or ask for help doing it. :banghead: Some just don't learn I suppose. ...Drag a horse to water... blah blah blah


A residential outlet box is designed for a 2x4 stud frame and is too deep for a camper. How did you use residential outlets? This would certainly be a desired upgrade if I knew how you did it.

[CedarCreekWoody]

A residential outlet box is designed for a 2x4 stud frame and is too deep for a camper. How did you use residential outlets? This would certainly be a desired upgrade if I knew how you did it.

I'm not the OP but hopefully he will give you an accurate answer. My guess is that outlets may be installed without the box. This is dangerous (and against code) as there are energized terminals exposed on the sides of the outlets.

[Roscommon48]

unless you know electrical you have a warranty, use it.

[JRTJH]

Lowe's has "old work shallow wall outlet boxes" which are 1.25" deep and will fit most wall spaces in travel trailers. There is an "issue" trying to dig out wiring and cut into the foam exterior walls, but I haven't seen but a couple of trailers that have outlets "in" exterior walls, most exterior wall outlets are "surface mount" not "cavity mount"....

https://www.lowes.com/pd/CARLON-1-Gang-Blue-Plastic-Old-Work-Shallow-Switch-Outlet-Wall-Electrical-Box/1000976020

[Bill-2020]

A residential outlet box is designed for a 2x4 stud frame and is too deep for a camper. How did you use residential outlets? This would certainly be a desired upgrade if I knew how you did it.

George,
The outlets inside my camper are not in the outer walls but rather in the cabinets or under the cabinets in the kitchen. The bunk outlets are on the rear wall where there is a cavity between the luan and the foam core wall that allows for trailer light wiring and romex to run through. As well as USB 12V outlet wiring.

I've added two outlets to the camper in areas where there should have been. One under the dinette seat, I tapped into the circuit for the outside outlet, ran the romex around to the under side of the seat where the bench and the camper wall meet, installed typical residential outlet box, the outlet and cover. The other one I installed is at the beginning of the bunks, near the floor. It too is in an interior wall that has ample room for a residential outlet box and outlet (what's behind that wall is the outdoor kitchen, water heater, etc.). As John said, there are old work boxes that work. In fact, the GFCI in the bathroom is sort of surface mount and sort of cavity mount. There's enough room in that interior wall where I removed the surface mount expanding ring and flush mounted the outlet. Keystone used the expanding ring to make it easy with less labor for them. I simply tucked the romex back and to the right making enough room for the GFCI to fit in a shallow box.

Woody - I'm not the OP of this thread, but as you'll see above there are proper boxes and everything is to up to code (and typically I go beyond what is required by code, example if you told me to use 14 AWG, I'd go with 12). The camper won't burn down because of my electrical work, if anything I've made it safer by getting rid of those IDC or blade type outlets that fail, been there and fixed that.

[wiredgeorge]

I'm not the OP but hopefully he will give you an accurate answer. My guess is that outlets may be installed without the box. This is dangerous (and against code) as there are energized terminals exposed on the sides of the outlets.


Have you removed one of the outlets in your RV? This is pretty much how they ALL are. The RV use blades where the installer shoves the wire into the blade and it cuts the insulation and makes contact. The difference in a residential fitting is that the wires are screwed onto the sides of the outlet and installing takes a bit more work as the wire needs stripped, twisted into a loop and hung over the appropriate screw which then needs tightened. The RV style outlets are also used anywhere that outlets are mass installed like mobile homes. In mobile homes (with 2x4 or 2x6 studs) they are in a box and the box has little half turn wings to hold it tight in the sheet rock.

[wiredgeorge]

George,
The outlets inside my camper are not in the outer walls but rather in the cabinets or under the cabinets in the kitchen. The bunk outlets are on the rear wall where there is a cavity between the luan and the foam core wall that allows for trailer light wiring and romex to run through. As well as USB 12V outlet wiring.

I've added two outlets to the camper in areas where there should have been. One under the dinette seat, I tapped into the circuit for the outside outlet, ran the romex around to the under side of the seat where the bench and the camper wall meet, installed typical residential outlet box, the outlet and cover. The other one I installed is at the beginning of the bunks, near the floor. It too is in an interior wall that has ample room for a residential outlet box and outlet (what's behind that wall is the outdoor kitchen, water heater, etc.). As John said, there are old work boxes that work. In fact, the GFCI in the bathroom is sort of surface mount and sort of cavity mount. There's enough room in that interior wall where I removed the surface mount expanding ring and flush mounted the outlet. Keystone used the expanding ring to make it easy with less labor for them. I simply tucked the romex back and to the right making enough room for the GFCI to fit in a shallow box.

Woody - I'm not the OP of this thread, but as you'll see above there are proper boxes and everything is to up to code (and typically I go beyond what is required by code, example if you told me to use 14 AWG, I'd go with 12). The camper won't burn down because of my electrical work, if anything I've made it safer by getting rid of those IDC or blade type outlets that fail, been there and fixed that.


You are correct; I do recall now that I added an old work shallow box in my slide which had 1/2 turn wings to retain it. There was no foam or anything to make it difficult as only a wisp of fiberglass insulation was in there (memory?). Had plenty of wire because the outlet had originally been installed inside a booth bench. I reinstalled directly to the wall. I also installed a full depth old work box inside the microwave cabinet with residential outlet as my bladed RV outlet had shakey connections.

[CedarCreekWoody]

Bill2020 I also just added an outlet on a dedicated 20 amp circuit for an electric heater. I used a cut-in box as well on a cabinet that had plenty of room, meeting all codes, so I know it can be done. But from what I've seen many times when people replace existing outlets and they take shortcuts. I have no idea how the OP replaced his, im not critizing him, I just wanted to caution people to do it correctly.

[mikec557]

Hi there. I'm the OP, and just wanted to clear up that I have not added any outlets (yet). My problem is the loose or open Neutral wire. Someone else posting in the thread added outlets and/or changed to residential boxes and outlets.

Don't get me wrong, I like side topics coming in. I've learned A-LOT from that in other threads. I just want to clear that up in case someone has a question for that person.

PS I will eventually add an outlet in our dinette bench seat. The factory ran the 120vac to that location, coiled up about 4 ft of wire and taped it off. I have no idea why they didn't just finish the job. When I put it in, it will be the only outlet in our slide-out, where there is the dinette and 2 recliners. But, there are other projects ahead of this.



Mike

[WJQ]

One Other Way to Mount an Outlet when there is not enough wall depth to install a box is as follows. I had a 2000 Bounder Motorhome befor my current Keystone. For a reason I do not remember, I had to replace the outlet over the dining table. It was located in an exterior wall.

There was not enough depth so I took a piece of hardwood and trimmed it to be an inch or so larger than a wall plate. I cut a rectangular hole in it for the outlet. So using this hardwood "spacer" , I effectively made the wall "thicker" and the outlet would now fit.

Thanks for the heads up from everyone on the blade outlets. I have not had one fail but they sure are of questionable quality/safety. Looks like I will start changing those out of my Keystone.

[mikec557]

One Other Way to Mount an Outlet when there is not enough wall depth to install a box is as follows...

There was not enough depth so I took a piece of hardwood and trimmed it to be an inch or so larger than a wall plate. I cut a rectangular hole in it for the outlet. So using this hardwood "spacer" , I effectively made the wall "thicker" and the outlet would now fit.

Clever solution. I'll keep that in mind for future projects.

[LHaven]

Thanks for the heads up from everyone on the blade outlets. I have not had one fail but they sure are of questionable quality/safety. Looks like I will start changing those out of my Keystone.

These outlets are standard in the manufactured home (singlewide/doublewide) industry, which has similar wall-depth issues. If installed conscientiously, they're quite solid and safe, even when they have to ride down the road. You may do just as well to simply inspect the ones you have and repunch them if necessary.

[Bill-2020]

These outlets are standard in the manufactured home (singlewide/doublewide) industry, which has similar wall-depth issues. If installed conscientiously, they're quite solid and safe, even when they have to ride down the road. You may do just as well to simply inspect the ones you have and repunch them if necessary.

Owners of trailers and manufactured homes can repunch all they want. Fact of the matter is the metal blade has still slightly deformed from the stress of the first punch-down at the factory. It’ll never be the same. For me, replace them and be done with the issue at hand and the issue that will eventually be at hand. I spent 10 years on the line in a rural and suburban fire department kicking in doors on burning houses and structures, pulling people and their pets out of that hell. I’ve seen what electrical fires do, trailers/campers and mobile homes go up fast and furious and the results are deadly. No thank you, my electrical is not going to be the reason I meet my maker before my time. This is the reason why I replaced my new a/c on a new camper due to a poor electrical connection from the Dometic factory. I checked the new ones and they were snug, but not tight. I fixed those before I installed it on the camper.

[mikec557]

Yup. That looks like an open neutral...

I missed the name of the member who suggested I start at the nearest to panel outlet. That made sense, so I did. Unfortunately, it was the furthest away outlet, yet must still be "first in line."

And what were they thinking?!?
Three pieces of Romex into one of these junkie outlets.

I'm not where I can effect the best repair. I'll either see if I can push the 3rd wire on or just leave the circuit breaker off until we get home.

I know somewhere there has to be a hidden junction to connect the stranded wire in the slide to the solid romex wire. But this? I have no idea why or to where this goofball Y-connection goes.

And per Murphy's Law, this was the 4th outlet of the 4 on this circuit... and of course it's in the hardest place for me to work in...

[wiredgeorge]

Owners of trailers and manufactured homes can repunch all they want. Fact of the matter is the metal blade has still slightly deformed from the stress of the first punch-down at the factory. It’ll never be the same. For me, replace them and be done with the issue at hand and the issue that will eventually be at hand. I spent 10 years on the line in a rural and suburban fire department kicking in doors on burning houses and structures, pulling people and their pets out of that hell. I’ve seen what electrical fires do, trailers/campers and mobile homes go up fast and furious and the results are deadly. No thank you, my electrical is not going to be the reason I meet my maker before my time. This is the reason why I replaced my new a/c on a new camper due to a poor electrical connection from the Dometic factory. I checked the new ones and they were snug, but not tight. I fixed those before I installed it on the camper.


I was a Texas State certified volunteer fireman with the Mico VFD and can never think of any instance for a rural fire department to ever kick in the door of a mobile home because by the time we would get there, the structure was fully engulfed. Your point about a camper is VERY well taken as I doubt they are even more likely to be a torch within seconds. Change the batteries on your smoke detectors often and don't rely on the pop out emergency windows in the bedroom (I doubt I could fit through mine).

[LHaven]

I missed the name of the member who suggested I start at the nearest to panel outlet. That made sense, so I did. Unfortunately, it was the furthest away outlet, yet must still be "first in line."

Probably me. You can never tell how the wires are run in these things. If you pop the nearest outlet to the panel and find only one romex in it, then start again at the other end. :dizzy:

[WJQ]

Mike557, I am following this blog as I generally learn something or can offer something on electrical issues. I may have found your problem.

I am in the process of installing an inverter in my 2018 Cougar and want to remove two circuits from the OEM power center so I can power them from to the inverter output. I want the microwave and all 120V outlets on the GFCI protected circuit to be powered by the inverter. Since I have a 280 W (Max) solar panel installed, I calculated that I could also power the refrig on the 120V circuit even though I normally run it on gas when camping.

In the process of trying to confirm that I had properly identified the circuits for the inverter, I discovered that the refrigerator 120V outlet (behind the frig) is connected to the "Conv/Gen” circuit in my Cougar. It is not connected to the GFCI circuit as I originally assumed it was.

So, check out your refrig outlet with a voltmeter as you may have an issue different than what you are chasing. When you are connected to shore power, check the voltage in the refrig outlet and then trip the Conv/Gen breaker. This will let you know if the frig is connected as mine is.

[mikec557]

Thanks for the tips. When I bought this used trailer I plugged it in and turned off every breaker. Then I turned on one breaker at a time and tested every outlet to identify which outlets were on each breaker. I also tested to see which were protected by a GFI and if so, which GFI. So, I have that mapped out. Keep in mind that this doesn't tell me how the circuit is strung (1st outlet, 2nd outlet, last outlet, etc).

Where I screwed up (almost went the whole year without that happening, LOL) was this: it was 100 degrees outside, and hotter inside, and I had my hand wrapped around the yellow tester. I only looked for a yellow light... So at that time I didn't notice all the outlets on one circuit had only one yellow, not two yellow, lights. I missed my chance to identify a problem early.

Later when the fridge wouldn't work right I test the outlet for the fridge, then all the outlets on that circuit per my earlier mapping, and I get the wrong result of red & yellow lights (hot and ground crossed). So I start chasing my tail on the question: how could anyone put the black wire where the bare copper should go, and bare copper where the black wire should go.

Then someone gives me a link to a short YouTube that demonstrates a false hot/ground test light result when the real issue is a loose or open Neutral.

Start investing that and I find the 3rd piece of Romex in the farthest outlet is the open neutral. Because it's not attached, it never fed any of the outlets, thus they're all dead. But at least I found the problem. When we get home I'll correct that spot with a household electrical box and standard outlet. Then I'll test all the outlets again and see where we're at.

If it were only two pieces of romex in that box, I could draw the circuit from breaker to 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th outlet. But there's 3 pieces of romex.

Problem is I have 2 wildcards.

1. Out of the underbelly I have a stranded wire cable going into the slide out, where they coiled it up for a future outlet install. It's on this problematic circuit. I found that half way through searching for the problem.

2. There are 3 pieces of romex in what we have to call the first outlet of the problematic circuit. One line brings power into the outlet, one line exits and daisy chains to the remaining 3 outlets...

And one more line goes who knows where? Probably, it feeds the stranded wire cable in the slide out, but if so, where is the junction of solid wire to stranded wire?

I don't know. I just hope that connection was made properly so I can install an outlet in the slide later this fall.

But, one step at a time. First I have to fix that jammed up mess by the passenger side nightstand.

[Bill-2020]

I was a Texas State certified volunteer fireman with the Mico VFD and can never think of any instance for a rural fire department to ever kick in the door of a mobile home because by the time we would get there, the structure was fully engulfed.

On the two or three that I vividly recall we arrived on scene to small oven fires and one bathroom bathtub fire where someone was trying to get rid of evidence. Melted mess. Kicking in doors is more of a term rather than an action. My beloved halligan bar did most of the work versus my 14 boot... but there were times on interior doors. Bernalillo County FD/VFD. To me,
VFD was the only way. I was 1 minute away from the station and lived to run calls at 3am. Some of the best 10 years of my younger years. Miss it sometimes.

[wiredgeorge]

On the two or three that I vividly recall we arrived on scene to small oven fires and one bathroom bathtub fire where someone was trying to get rid of evidence. Melted mess. Kicking in doors is more of a term rather than an action. My beloved halligan bar did most of the work versus my 14 boot... but there were times on interior doors. Bernalillo County FD/VFD. To me,
VFD was the only way. I was 1 minute away from the station and lived to run calls at 3am. Some of the best 10 years of my younger years. Miss it sometimes.


80 percent of our calls were wildland; mostly grass fires but a lot of burning scrub cedar or controlled burns by a rancher our of control. 10 percent were car fires where someone in the big city would steal a car (maybe joy ride?) and dump the car on a remote rural road and set it on fire to cover incriminating evidence and the other 10 percent were meth houses blowing up. Actual structure fires were rare and access to many homes was very difficult due to distance from the station, locked gates, extremely curvy and narrow drives up very steep inclines, etc. Bexar County would call us in if they had wildland fires on the west or north side of their county as they didn't have the equipment or training and we had a fleet of deuce and a halfs equipped for the job. That type of action was extremely tiresome with fires worked for many hours.

[WJQ]

At the risk of telling you what you probably know, the first outlet in a GFCI circuit is the GFCI breaker. It is designed so that when properly connected, it will protect any "downstream" outlets. Then, if all downstream outlets are wired properly with the hot, neutral and ground connected where they should be in the daisy chain, they will all be GFCI protected.

My house residential wiring created a GFCI circuit in the basement utility room where he daisy chained all garage and outside circuits -- probably 10 or more. He was too cheap to create GFCI circuits on a more logical basis.

[mikec557]

At the risk of telling you what you probably know, the first outlet in a GFCI circuit is the GFCI breaker. It is designed so that when properly connected, it will protect any "downstream" outlets. Then, if all downstream outlets are wired properly with the hot, neutral and ground connected where they should be in the daisy chain, they will all be GFCI protected.

My house residential wiring created a GFCI circuit in the basement utility room where he daisy chained all garage and outside circuits -- probably 10 or more. He was too cheap to create GFCI circuits on a more logical basis.


Thanks. I think the odd thing is, there is no GFI on this circuit. Granted, the outlet behind the fridge is not on the exterior of the camper, but it is just inside the plastic grate. I guess technically rain shouldn't splash in there. But it surprised me there was no GFI.

Wow, 10 outlets down stream of the GFI at your house. I would have thought code would limit to a lesser quantity.

I'll post pics when I get it fixed/configured.

[WJQ]

My GFCI breaker in the Cougar is in the bathroom. It is more than half the length of the trailer away from the power center. I think all of your outlets are daisy chained from that location.

Unless someone intentially removed your GFCI breaker, it will be somewhere.

Note, in a residential installation, one can buy expensibe GFCI circuit breakers that are protect the entire downstrean outlets. I don't think Keystone would spend the money on one of that type of circuit breaker.