PDA

View Full Version : Water Line Plumbing Diagram for 326 MKS


W5WI
11-02-2011, 03:27 PM
Hello All,

While most of the water line routing is self explanitory I have some questions on how the water lines are routed to the water pump.

I recently winterized the 5er, but I cheated because I took the city water line loose and used it to pump the RV antifreeze throughout the system. I want to install a bypass valve and a permanently installed line for winterizing instead of having to disconnect the city water line each time I do it.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Thanks in advance!

SteveC7010
11-02-2011, 04:21 PM
I recently winterized the 5er, but I cheated because I took the city water line loose and used it to pump the RV antifreeze throughout the system.

When you did that, you didn't get any antifreeze into the pump itself and the line from the pump to the tee where the city water intake joins the system. The lines are probably not much of an issue as they are made out of flex hose, but the tee's and the pump itself are both prone to breakage if there is freeze expansion. You may want to take a closer look at that on your rig.


I want to install a bypass valve and a permanently installed line for winterizing instead of having to disconnect the city water line each time I do it.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Thanks in advance!

Better to install the standard winterizing valve kit in its normal location on the line between the fresh water tank and the pump. That way, antifreeze is pulled through the pump, protecting it, and then the rest of the system. You are using the pump to move the antifreeze into the system, displacing any residual water.

And there is no disconnecting of any of the plumbing involved.

The key to getting antifreeze into the city water line and connection itself is to close all the faucets and let the pump come up to pressure and shut off. Then take a key or screwdriver, remove the filter screen on the city water connection, and VERY BRIEFLY press the little button in the center. What you are doing is over-riding the check valve, letting the pump push fluid backwards into the city water connection and out onto the ground. A couple of presses should get nice pink stuff coming at you.

Oh yeah, remember to stand off to one side when you do this. Or wear a rain coat.... :)

Jim W
11-03-2011, 05:40 AM
The key to getting antifreeze into the city water line and connection itself is to close all the faucets and let the pump come up to pressure and shut off. Then take a key or screwdriver, remove the filter screen on the city water connection, and VERY BRIEFLY press the little button in the center. What you are doing is over-riding the check valve, letting the pump push fluid backwards into the city water connection and out onto the ground. A couple of presses should get nice pink stuff coming at you.

Oh yeah, remember to stand off to one side when you do this. Or wear a rain coat.... :)

Another way to winterize is too use air to blow out the water lines and than add the RV anti-freeze.
My way, is to open all three low point drains and blow out the water lines with 40 PSI air. I have an air hose with a quick connect and pipe threads that screws into the fresh water inlet. I than hook-up the air compressor to blow out the water. This way the fresh water check valve is not damaged in anyway by pushing on it to open it up for back flow. After the water is blown out removed the air line and close the low point drains. I will then open up the bypass valve and pump the RV anti-freeze through the pump and the rest of the system.
This way I am totally sure that the entire water system is winterized. The added step to blow out the water takes all of 10 Min's. Mainly to round up the air hose and connect to the fresh water inlet.
Jim W.

W5WI
11-03-2011, 05:55 AM
When you did that, you didn't get any antifreeze into the pump itself and the line from the pump to the tee where the city water intake joins the system. The lines are probably not much of an issue as they are made out of flex hose, but the tee's and the pump itself are both prone to breakage if there is freeze expansion. You may want to take a closer look at that on your rig.




Better to install the standard winterizing valve kit in its normal location on the line between the fresh water tank and the pump. That way, antifreeze is pulled through the pump, protecting it, and then the rest of the system. You are using the pump to move the antifreeze into the system, displacing any residual water.

And there is no disconnecting of any of the plumbing involved.

The key to getting antifreeze into the city water line and connection itself is to close all the faucets and let the pump come up to pressure and shut off. Then take a key or screwdriver, remove the filter screen on the city water connection, and VERY BRIEFLY press the little button in the center. What you are doing is over-riding the check valve, letting the pump push fluid backwards into the city water connection and out onto the ground. A couple of presses should get nice pink stuff coming at you.

Oh yeah, remember to stand off to one side when you do this. Or wear a rain coat.... :)

Thanks for your thoughts. On the 326MKS the city water line connects to the input side of the pump. When the line is taken loose from the area it's in the check valve remains attached to the panel and the line is a direct feed to the pump. The pump is used to pump the RV antifreeze through the system.

I totally agree with you on having the postive bypass valve and separate hose I purchased one and had planned on using it but took it to the dealer for another problem and they did the winterizing... I mispoke when I said I did it. I'd started the process but they finished it. I had forgotten that detail in my initial post above as I was and still am focused on finding a plumbing diagram... But, the process was as described by me... :)

W5WI
11-03-2011, 05:58 AM
:)Another way to winterize is too use air to blow out the water lines and than add the RV anti-freeze.
My way, is to open all three low point drains and blow out the water lines with 40 PSI air. I have an air hose with a quick connect and pipe threads that screws into the fresh water inlet. I than hook-up the air compressor to blow out the water. This way the fresh water check valve is not damaged in anyway by pushing on it to open it up for back flow. After the water is blown out removed the air line and close the low point drains. I will then open up the bypass valve and pump the RV anti-freeze through the pump and the rest of the system.
This way I am totally sure that the entire water system is winterized. The added step to blow out the water takes all of 10 Min's. Mainly to round up the air hose and connect to the fresh water inlet.
Jim W.

Thanks Jim, excellent advice. I have used the air valve before and it works great. I still poured RV antifreeze into the holding tanks and drains also.

I just like the more positive feeling of seeing pink coming out of the faucets and in the low point drain lines. :)

SteveC7010
11-03-2011, 06:24 AM
On the 326MKS the city water line connects to the input side of the pump. When the line is taken loose from the area it's in the check valve remains attached to the panel and the line is a direct feed to the pump. The pump is used to pump the RV antifreeze through the system.

Not on mine. The city water inlet is connected to the water system after the pump. The pump is essentially a check valve and pressurized water in the system can not flow backwards through the pump.

If the city water is connected prior to the pump, it would flow continuously, filling the freshwater tank to overflowing and beyond. There can not be a check valve on the line between the tank and the pump because the pump is not strong enough to pull the check valve open and then pull water from the fresh water tank.

Simple diagram with ASCII (the vertical bars are actually down arrows - could not find down arrow on keyboard :) ):

FRESH WATER TANK
|
WINTERIZING VALVE <----SUCTION HOSE FOR WINTERIZING
|
PUMP
|
TEE <------- CITY WATER INLET AND CHECK VALVE
|
SYSTEM

W5WI
11-03-2011, 06:33 AM
Not on mine. The city water inlet is connected to the water system after the pump. The pump is essentially a check valve and pressurized water in the system can not flow backwards through the pump.

If the city water is connected prior to the pump, it would flow continuously, filling the freshwater tank to overflowing and beyond. There can not be a check valve on the line between the tank and the pump because the pump is not strong enough to pull the check valve open and then pull water from the fresh water tank.

Simple diagram with ASCII (the vertical bars are actually down arrows - could not find down arrow on keyboard :) ):

FRESH WATER TANK
|
WINTERIZING VALVE <----SUCTION HOSE FOR WINTERIZING
|
PUMP
|
TEE <------- CITY WATER INLET AND CHECK VALVE
|
SYSTEM

Okay, I may have misunderstood what I was told (not hard to do these days...:) ).

Since you have the same 5er you can relate. The city water connection is inside the rear basement door in an enclosed space that also has the shower connection. The city water connects here. They told me that by removing the line from the inside of the connection at that panel you could pump the RV antifreeze through the system.

My initial thought was when I followed that line to the pump was that there was/is a check valve at the pump where the fresh water tank line and the city water line enter the pump. To me, this is where I'd install the bypass valve and fill line for the RV antifreeze.

Is this your thought as well?

thanks,

SteveC7010
11-03-2011, 08:47 AM
Okay, I may have misunderstood what I was told (not hard to do these days...:) ).

Since you have the same 5er you can relate. The city water connection is inside the rear basement door in an enclosed space that also has the shower connection. The city water connects here. They told me that by removing the line from the inside of the connection at that panel you could pump the RV antifreeze through the system.

My initial thought was when I followed that line to the pump was that there was/is a check valve at the pump where the fresh water tank line and the city water line enter the pump. To me, this is where I'd install the bypass valve and fill line for the RV antifreeze.

Is this your thought as well?

thanks,

There is a small panel behind the city water hookup box. It is diagonal from the edge of the box over to the back wall of the basement. It should be held in place with just two screws.

If you remove the panel, you can then see the water pump. My pump faces me at an angle with the motor further to the rear. The intake from the fresh water tank is on the left side of the pump. The right side of the pump is pressurized water out to the system. Easy to trace if yours is different.

The connections to the pump are quick connects. Slide the little tab away from the fitting and it pops out. Press the fitting all the way in and slide the tab back to reinstall. I pull the line off the pump for ease of working on it.

To install the winterizing kit, just cut the line on the intake side a few inches away from the pump. Whatever is convenient is OK but put it somewhere that you can reach in there and connect the suction line and then flip the valve. My winterizing kit needed the supplement of a pair of brass 1/2" NPT to hose barbs and two small clamps. The kit was for older style plumbing so I did not need or use any of the gray plastic fittings for PEX that came with it. All of that plumbing in the Cougar is now flex hose. Much easier to work with and fittings readily available everywhere - no need to go to the RV store. Some teflon tape on the threads, connect the adapters to the valve, press the cut hose ends on the barbs and tighten the clamps.

If you blow the system out with air before pumping in the pink antifreeze, it is not necessary to perform the check valve press. I have the standard RV air fitting - male garden hose with a tire valve on the back - hook that to the city water connection and it will clear all the water out of the city water connection, check valve, and short piece of hose into the water system.

Full info on winterizing with air is in several other posts and threads.

webslave
11-03-2011, 11:50 AM
What the dealership told you (disconnect the shore water line inside) is correct... What they left out is that you then have to connect a hand pump to that hose you removed and pump the antifreeze through the system manually. You can't use the 12v water pump to do it :) Most any RV supply can sell you the hand pump as well as CW and other webfront RV parts stores.

I discovered this when talking to my dealer when I purchased my 318SAB and found that it didn't have a winterizing kit. I asked him how they did the winterizing without it; assuming that they winterize quite a few at the shop there. That's when he explained their system. Seemed rather labor intensive to me, but, I guess in the fall if you've got mechanics standing around, it is a "busy work" type of thing. Once they've run the 12v pump dry, they throw the bypass valve at the base of the water heater, they then pull the shore water line from the back of the "docking bay panel" and hook up the hand pump. Pump antifreeze through the system and call it a day. I asked why they didn't just make up a threaded hose for their hand pump and attach it to the shore water inlet that way...seems easier to me. He looked at me like I was a little dense and said "they have to access that panel anyway to throw the water heater bypass...a simple screw driver and the hose is off". To each their own ;)

I bought a winterizing kit and installed it last week. I use air to winterize my system, but, should the need arise, I'd want one already installed. Unfortunately, my unit came winterized and since we just took delivery a week and half ago, it doesn't look like I'll get to take it out before next spring :(

SteveC7010
11-03-2011, 12:20 PM
I asked why they didn't just make up a threaded hose for their hand pump and attach it to the shore water inlet that way...seems easier to me. He looked at me like I was a little dense and said "they have to access that panel anyway to throw the water heater bypass...a simple screw driver and the hose is off". To each their own ;)

Your write-up about the hand pump explains it all!!

BTW, on the 326MKS (and other models I am sure), the backside of the water heater is not reachable through the panel that gets at the backside of the city water inlet. That kinda blows his "have to access the panel anyway" logic clear out of the water.

Hand pumping into the system via the city water line (less the connector and check valve if you wish) still does not get antifreeze into the 12vdc pump. Curiouser and curiouser!

Festus2
11-03-2011, 12:57 PM
To ensure complete winterization, would it not be possible to use a combination of:
a) blowing out the lines at the black tank flush and at the city water connection, OR
b) using the handpump to get the pink stuff into those sections of plumbing that the water pump can't, and/or
c) using the usual RV antifreeze winterizing kit or an adaption of that to get the pink stuff in all of the pipes serviced by the FW pump ???

There may not be just one way to get the RV antifreeze into all of plumbing throughout the entire unit. By using two of the above methods, I think you will be able to get the pink stuff into it all of it or at least have the lines clear of any water.
Silly me - I thought that winterizing was pretty straight forward until now. Just when I thought I had it down pat ----- someone comes along and confuses me more than I already am! Did someone mention a party? A pink one, that is.

SteveC7010
11-03-2011, 01:10 PM
Would it not be possible to use a combination of:
a) blowing out the lines at the black tank flush and at the city water connection, OR
b) using the handpump to get the pink stuff into those sections of plumbing that the water pump can't, and/or
c) using the usual RV antifreeze winterizing kit or an adaption of that to get the pink stuff in all of the pipes serviced by the FW pump.

My personal preference is a, followed by c and then push the little dooder in the city water connection until it flows pink. That should account for every inch of the fresh water system including the pump plus it avoids getting antifreeze in the FW tank. My personal preference is not to have to do the extra flushing needed to clear the tank of taste and odor.

But there are other ways to do it all that will get the job done.

SteveC7010
11-04-2011, 01:40 AM
A close friend of mine on another forum reminded me that there can be some issues with pushing the button on the check valve when the system is under full pressure.

Some of the lower quality check valves can self destruct by blowing back the O-ring that is the seal in there. They are not repairable.

So, looking at the Keystone valve on my trailer, I am thinking it may be better to either blow that section of the line clear with air pressure applied the at city water connection before pumping in antifreeze via the onboard pump or,

Shut the pump off after antifreeze is in the rest of the system, relieve the pressure at a faucet, and then press the button allowing a small amount of liquid to drain back out. If you open the kitchen faucet before you press, gravity will do its job.

The hand pump method will work just fine here too, but remember that it doesn't get antifreeze back into the pump.

JRTJH
11-04-2011, 04:04 AM
Steve, a third solution would be to use air to blow water out of the system. then, as a first step once the antifreeze is hooked up to the fresh water tank side of the pump would be to have someone hold the check valve in the city water supply open and have a second person turn the pump on. As the pump builds pressure, it would flow to the city water supply first (at low pressure) and as soon as pink flows, release the check valve. That would provide antifreeze through the pump and out the city water supply and check valve. Then, after the valve is released, the system would build pressure which would force antifreeze through the remainder of the plumbing.

SteveC7010
11-04-2011, 04:28 AM
Steve, a third solution would be to use air to blow water out of the system. then, as a first step once the antifreeze is hooked up to the fresh water tank side of the pump would be to have someone hold the check valve in the city water supply open and have a second person turn the pump on. As the pump builds pressure, it would flow to the city water supply first (at low pressure) and as soon as pink flows, release the check valve. That would provide antifreeze through the pump and out the city water supply and check valve. Then, after the valve is released, the system would build pressure which would force antifreeze through the remainder of the plumbing.

That would work pretty well, I think. The high pressure is the potential problem so getting just an "ooze" of pink in some fashion would be just fine.

webslave
11-04-2011, 05:49 AM
I've always winterized with just air...no antifreeze in the freshwater lines, just the drains. To clear the pump, while the air is running and with the low point drains open, I just turn the pump "On" for a few seconds. It doesn't hurt most modern water pumps to run them dry for short periods (a few seconds is all it takes) and it will "self clear" itself and the lines associated with it of any water while the air coming in through the shore connection will flush it away to the low points.

JRTJH
11-04-2011, 07:43 AM
I've always winterized with just air...no antifreeze in the freshwater lines, just the drains. To clear the pump, while the air is running and with the low point drains open, I just turn the pump "On" for a few seconds. It doesn't hurt most modern water pumps to run them dry for short periods (a few seconds is all it takes) and it will "self clear" itself and the lines associated with it of any water while the air coming in through the shore connection will flush it away to the low points.

When we were in Louisiana I did the air only also, but in northern Michigan, as cold as it gets, I'm concerned that the pump may sit in a "low spot" and any water left in the lines after using air could migrate back to the pump. It only takes a couple of teaspoonfuls to fill one of the pump's chambers, and if that happens and a hard freeze occurs, it could crack the pump housing. While this "may never happen" the potential is just great enough and the price of a new pump or pump head is high enough for me not to want to gamble that it won't happen.

Better safe than sorry really applies here, expecially as difficult as it is to get the pump out and another one installed when you're 75 miles from the nearest pump source (assuming they have one in stock) LOL

In really cold climates, I just like the extra advantage of having the pink stuff just in case..... ;)

W5WI
11-04-2011, 03:03 PM
Your write-up about the hand pump explains it all!!

I looked at the water pump and I was/am wondering if I can attach the fitting that came with my winterizing kit directly to the pump. The kit has a 1/2-inch FIP coupling that screws to the pump and the bypass valve attaches to it and then the water lines to it.

I'll double check to make sure the city water inlet is purged of water. But, since it is way higher than the inlet side of the pump I assume gravity drained it when the dealer winterized it...

BTW, on the 326MKS (and other models I am sure), the backside of the water heater is not reachable through the panel that gets at the backside of the city water inlet. That kinda blows his "have to access the panel anyway" logic clear out of the water.

Hand pumping into the system via the city water line (less the connector and check valve if you wish) still does not get antifreeze into the 12vdc pump. Curiouser and curiouser!

Steve, since we have the same model Cougar I'm sure you discovered as I did that to reach the WH you don't have to remove the panel. Just open the sink cabinet and you can reach the back of the WH and the bypass switch for the tank.

SteveC7010
11-04-2011, 03:20 PM
Steve, since we have the same model Cougar I'm sure you discovered as I did that to reach the WH you don't have to remove the panel. Just open the sink cabinet and you can reach the back of the WH and the bypass switch for the tank.

Yup! Spotted that on the first visit to the sales floor. It was kinda handy having it indoors and all lit up which helped us find all kinds of things like that.

But the ease of reaching the entire water heater in the 326 leaves me mystified why it is so difficult to find it in other models.