120V power

[Wchinchey]

Hi all! I talked my husband into a used camper 2 months ago. We are very new to RVing. We bought 2015 Keystone Hideout 260LHS. We know the people we got it from well and looked at it several times and they showed us all the ins and outs. We brought it home and parked it (not plugged in)and are now wanting to take it out for the first time this weekend. Everything was not working inside and battery completely dead when I went to get somethings ready. We plugged it into our generator and still nothing. Not even the microwave or other 120V components. We got some charge to the battery and the lights started working but now going dead again. So I know we need a battery, but why is the 120V stuff not working when plugged in? Where should we start?

[chuckster57]

Welcome to the forum!!

First off congrats on your new to you purchase, let’s see if we can get you enjoying it.

Very first thing to check is the output of the generator. If it’s producing 120VAC then the next stop would be the main breaker at the power distribution center. If your ok using a Volt/Ohm meter take the cover off the panel. Set the meter to VAC 200 scale, and put the black lead on the bar with all the bare wires and the red on the black wire of the MAIN breaker.

If you have power, then cycle all the breakers. If not then it’s time to back trace towards the gen.

[flybouy]

Some more info would help. is the camper a 50 or 30 Amp connection? What size generator and how is the camper plugged into the generator? Direct connection? Dog bone connection say a 50 to 30 Amp adapter?

[JRTJH]

There is a "phantom battery drain" in every trailer, even if you have an OEM battery cutoff switch. In about 4 or 5 days, that "phantom drain" will completely discharge your battery. Discharging it below about 50-60% level can damage the battery, causing it to not recharge or hold a charge.

It sounds like what happened is that you towed the trailer home, parked it beside the garage, the battery discharged beyond the level and shorted out inside. Now, when you plug in the generator, the converter/charger is trying to recharge the "dead battery" but can't overcome the damage within the battery...

The problem was caused by that "phantom drain"... Even if "everything" appears to be turned off inside the trailer, there is a LP gas leak detector, a CO detector, the memory circuit for the stereo, and if the refrigerator was left on, it also placed a 12 volt drain on the battery.

I'd suggest removing the battery from the trailer, trying to charge it on a "stand alone charger" and once it appears to be "fully charged" take it to an auto parts store and have them load test the battery. My guess is that it will have one or more "dead cells'.

If you intend to do much "dry camping" (using the RV without electric/water/sewer hookups) you'll want to replace the bad battery with a "true deep cycle battery". Don't be fooled by the "marine deep cycle/cranking batteries" at WalMart. If the battery you're looking at has the term "CCA" listed on it, it is NOT a "true deep cycle battery"...

On the other hand, if you do not intend to "dry camp" then nearly any "marine deep cycle/cranking battery will do what you need.

Until you determine the battery condition, DO NOT OPERATE YOUR SLIDES... Doing so may damage your converter/charger.

Once you have this problem resolved, in the future, if your trailer is going to be in storage and/or not connected to shore power, you'll need to disconnect the battery terminals to prevent discharging the new battery. You can install a battery cutoff switch, but that's something to consider after you get things operational again.

[Wchinchey]

30amp connection with an adapter plugged into the generator. I guess where I get confused, I think that since it’s plugged in, it should work. So even if you don’t have a good battery it won’t work plugged in? I apologize for my newness to all this. I will work oncharging the battery tomorrow or getting a new one. If that works, then I will make sure to disconnect it is we don’t leave it plugged in.

[chuckster57]

The battery condition shouldn’t have anything to do with the 120V appliances working or not. It will affect the 12V stuff and the converter.

Like I said, I would start at the generator making sure it’s producing 120VAC. Then I would check at the trailer. You may have a faulty adapter.

[JRTJH]

If your generator is producing 120VAC then you should have power in the trailer. You may have a situation where the generator is overloaded and the overload breaker is tripped (on the generator panel).

If the water heater electric element and the refrigerator is set to "AUTO" then you might be overloading the generator capacity when you include the converter/charger trying to provide "maximum output" to charge the dead battery...

I'd suggest checking the water heater to turn off the electric element, set the refrigerator to LPG, turn all the circuit breakers on the trailer power center OFF, then connect the generator, turn on the trailer power center main breaker, then turn on the MICROWAVE breaker, see if the microwave clock is flashing. If it is, then power it up and see if it will operate. Move on to the next circuit breaker, and continue until they all are turned on.

Remember, the REC/CON circuit breaker is the "receptacles in the trailer" and the "converter charger". W/H is the water heater. There is a GFI in the bathroom outlet. It will only reset if power is turned on to that circuit. The refrigerator, when set to AUTO, will always default to AC power if it is available and only switch to LP operation if the AC power is interrupted or if the selector switch is set to LPG.

[bobbecky]

What generator are you using? and does the trailer happen to have an EMS device installed? If you have a Progressive EMS and happen to be using an inverter type generator like a Honda, you will need a grounding plug in the generator so the EMS will allow power through to the trailer. Just a thought.

[Wchinchey]

The generator is a duromax 12000 watt dual fuel. Unsure on the EMS

[flybouy]

The generator is a duromax 12000 watt dual fuel. Unsure on the EMS

That's plenty of generator to run any trailer. If the converter partially charged the battery then you are getting 120 vac to the trailers electric panel. What I suspect happened is that during the drive home the truck partially charged the battery.

The EMS referred to references an Electrical Management System. They are far more than a surge protector. Not to throw more info at you but here's some of what they do. They check for proper voltage and will interrupt the circuit if the voltage is too low or too great. They check for proper wiring and will interrupt if any of the 3 wires in a 30 Amp circuit are not connected (line, neutral, ground). They have a delay when power is energized. The delay can be up to 2 minutes before the EMS connects the power to the trailer. The purpose of this is to prevent the air conditioner and other appliances from being damaged if power goes on and off rapidly (like lights going on and off during a storm).

Some generators need a "bonding plug" to satisfy the EMS. That's another discussion.

How familiar are you with the generator? If you are using either the 4 or 3 circuit connectors where the holes are in a circular pattern then they are "twist lock" and as the name implies you must plug in connector and twist it clockwise to make a connection.

Lengthy post but I don't know what your experiences are with these devices. If you start the generator connected to the camper (plugged in) with the main breaker off, let the engine run and "stabilize". Everything in the camper should be turned off, i.e. air conditioner to off, water heater off, etc. If you're not sure turn the individual breakers off in the camper.

Then turn the breaker on the generator to the on position. Wait 2 min (in case it is equipped with an EMS, then start turning on the breakers in the camper. As John stated when you flip the microwave on the clock should start flashing. Do not turn the water heater electric switch on if the water heater doesn't have water in it. Doing so will burn out the 120 vac heating element.

Do you have a VOM and know how to use it? If you do, then follow Chuck's advice in post #2 if you still aren't getting any 120 vac in the camper.

[GHen]

To start, My guess is there may be something simple wrong since they know the original owners.
Maybe all the 110 volt breakers were turned off, that would explain most of the issues.

As noted above, a battery can be damaged by allowing it to go dead. Need to get it tested or you will have problems on your trip.

Focus on getting the 100volt stuff running like the microwave, then the converter will hopefully start charging the battery. Can you get it plugged into regular power rather than the generator?

[Logan X]

Having no 120VAC power when connected to the generator sounds like there might be an EMS in the trailer that is stopping the power from coming in, like others have mentioned already. Do you have the ability to connect the trailer to actual 120VAC house power (like from a house) to see if that powers the trailer? The house power would not trigger the EMS device like the generator does.

[Wchinchey]

I appreciate all the feedback. Let me tell you what we did and what’s happening now. So originally we had the 30 amp plugged into an adapter which I guess is a 15 amp adapter. Wouldn’t work plugged to our shop or the generator. Today, purchased a new battery and a 30 amp to 30 amp adapter (3 prong to 4 prong). Plugged into the generator and we have lights, air conditioning, microwave, outlets. The radio doesn’t work and the fridge keeps the check, auto, gas and ac lights on. We checked the fuses and all seem fine except both 40s were blown. Reading, it doesn’t seem this would be a answer to the fridge or radio? We switched and plugged into the shop again (back with that 15 amp adapter) and back to only battery working?

[bobbecky]

Those two 40 amp fuses are the reverse polarity protection fuses. The battery had to have been connected backwards which is why those fuses blew. That is also why you were not getting power from the converter. You must make sure that the cable attached to the frame of the trailer is connected to the negative terminal of the battery. The positive is connected the cable that goes to the 12 volt breakers and fuses. Hopefully everything will work when all is corrected.

[Sarge2]

I believe in starting with the basics when it comes to electrical anything...Start at the simple stuff first... don't think your friends would dupe you so I'd bet everything was working prior to you parking it...I'd go thru things like a flow chart... check this is good go to this...

I think checking to make sure the main breaker and other breakers are even turned on is a good start...as was mentioned by GHen.. if that's not an issue then
Making sure the connection between the Gen and TT wire is good.. Generator breaker good...using a Dog bone? Make sure it's good...and so on and so on... I'd not condemn any thing until you've done the basic checks... as was stated, it's probably the simple thing that got overlooked...
JMHO
Sarge

[Summergirl]

There is a fuse on the back of the radio. Ours was blown. Replaced and works fine now.

[flybouy]

I appreciate all the feedback. Let me tell you what we did and what’s happening now. So originally we had the 30 amp plugged into an adapter which I guess is a 15 amp adapter. Wouldn’t work plugged to our shop or the generator. Today, purchased a new battery and a 30 amp to 30 amp adapter (3 prong to 4 prong). Plugged into the generator and we have lights, air conditioning, microwave, outlets. The radio doesn’t work and the fridge keeps the check, auto, gas and ac lights on. We checked the fuses and all seem fine except both 40s were blown. Reading, it doesn’t seem this would be a answer to the fridge or radio? We switched and plugged into the shop again (back with that 15 amp adapter) and back to only battery working?

As previously mentioned the two 40 Amp fuses are reverse polarity. It only takes a split second of connecting the battery reversed to blow them out. They are There to protect the sensitive appliance boards that operate on 12 vdc from damage. The electrical systems in a camper are 120 vac (alternating current just like in your house) and 12 vdc (direct current just like your truck).

The appliances dependent on the 12 vdc to operate: furnace, refrigerator (control board & LP gas ignitor), water heater (LP gas ignitor), interior and exterior lighting, bathroom fan, ceiling fan if so equipped,radio, TV antenna booster which may also have a "cigar lighter" style plug receptacle.

The 120 vac appliances and or components that use this are : air conditioner, microwave and it's interior light (same as in your house), refrigerator ( when you choose the "electric" option it uses an electric heater instead of propane), the water heater (if you choose the "electric" option same as fridge), television, all 15 Amp electrical outlets (just like your house).

Now your post is confusing because if the battery works it should work without regard to where the 120 vac is coming from or if it's plugged in at all. Sounds like your 15 to 30 Amp dog bone is defective is not working for either but, check the garage outlet by plugging in something else to see if it works, a light, radio, fan, cell phone charger, anything to see if it works. I keep an outlet tester in the camper ( like this https://www.amazon.com/Gardner-Bender-GFI-3501-Receptacle-Extension/dp/B00170KUPC/ref=sr_1_3_sspa?crid=4N24MAO8UN8T&dchild=1&keywords=outlet+tester&qid=1588761273&sprefix=outlet+%2Caps%2C263&sr=8-3-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExRlVXQUpVWVJLM0NWJ mVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMzkzMzA0QTg4SjM4TzFNS0dSJmVuY3J 5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA3NzY4MzVVMkJJWkUyNEdaMEUmd2lkZ2V0T mFtZT1zcF9hdGYmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3R Mb2dDbGljaz10cnVl) for $8 it comes in handy.

Is the "good friend" you purchased the camper from available to help you guys find out if they had any issues?

[Wchinchey]

I’m thankful I found this forum. You all are extremely knowledgeable, having dealt with some of these issues before. Again, I appreciate all the help. Changed the two 40 amp fuses, changed a 7.5 amp fuse in the radio and a 3 amp fuse on the fridge. The friend we bought the camper from felt terrible and gave us money for the new battery. All is up and running. Not sure where our initial problem began? Maybe like some of you said, a faulty adapter or something with our outlet. Or just something we did, being newbies, and didn’t know. I know this will be a learning experience. On to our first journey this weekend with our kiddos.

[Wchinchey]

Wanted to add, we thought we checked all the fuses when we were looking in the breaker box and when I posted yesterday. Then learned there were more throughout. As stated before....Newbies

[flybouy]

Well now you have your first "story" to tell. Enjoy the camper and have fun!

[GHen]

Glad to hear you figured it all out!

Don’t let that new battery get below 12.2 volts, unhook it when you’re not using the rig or keep monitoring it weekly. On many rv’s parasitic items like smoke detectors will drain it quickly.

[Camp CA]

Congratulations on getting it resolved!!

When I left the battery connected there were sufficient parasitic power consumers that would drain the battery resulting in either recharging or replacing it. Solved that on my last 2 trailers with a battery switch at the battery terminal (or you can disconnect the battery's positive lead). Our new trailer has a solar panel that continuously charges the battery so we do not risk draining the battery with it still connected.

[Whutches]

Just went through something similar with my 5th wheel. I found that the battery wasn’t charging so I pulled it and found it needed almost a gallon of distilled water. Fortunately I caught it in time and the battery wasn’t ruined. I had my battery on a constant charge while parked. I’ve since quit that practice. Make checking the battery water level a routine maintenance item.

[flybouy]

Just went through something similar with my 5th wheel. I found that the battery wasn’t charging so I pulled it and found it needed almost a gallon of distilled water. Fortunately I caught it in time and the battery wasn’t ruined. I had my battery on a constant charge while parked. I’ve since quit that practice. Make checking the battery water level a routine maintenance item.

You boiled out all the water and you think there's no damage? I'm guessing you haven't had it tested.

[Whutches]

Well I believe it’s okay anyway. I bench charged it, reinstalled it and it seems to be holding a charge. All my 12 volt items, including the slides seem to be working now so I’ll keep my fingers crossed.

[flybouy]

Well I believe it’s okay anyway. I bench charged it, reinstalled it and it seems to be holding a charge. All my 12 volt items, including the slides seem to be working now so I’ll keep my fingers crossed.

You sound confident in your knowledge and decision so good luck with that.

[Roscommon48]

start with plugging into 'real' electric and see what happens.


then get your batteries checked out.


in the future, if you are leaving the trailer out and not using it either keep it plugged in or disconnect the batteries....you can just disconnect the neg. side of the battery.

[sourdough]

Well I believe it’s okay anyway. I bench charged it, reinstalled it and it seems to be holding a charge. All my 12 volt items, including the slides seem to be working now so I’ll keep my fingers crossed.



When a battery has had the water boiled out of it it's not OK. A typical deep cycle battery should never be discharged below 50%. I have posted previously, and had new batteries replaced by a dealership free of charge, because they had let them totally discharge one time. They were skeptical until I sent them the Interstate publication on the batteries that said 1 (ONE) total discharge reduced the ability of the battery to recharge and hold a charge by 83% - one time.

If you choose to use your trailer and run it without outside power to augment the battery(s) and it does not put out full power your equipment will pay the price; your slides depend on 100% power to operate properly and efficiently without damage due to low voltage. Same goes for all the other 12vdc equipment. It's much larger than "it held a charge". I wouldn't keep it for a minute....the future costs to other equipment, and then a new battery, far outweighs the minimal cost of a new battery.

[notanlines]

Let me blunt: (Yeah, there's a first) You can afford an RV, you can afford a TV, you certainly afford a hundred bucks for a new battery to replace one that boiled a gallon of water out of it. Consider it one of life's little lessons. These guys wouldn't steer you wrong....well, Marshall might if you rubbed him the wrong way! :D:hide:

[chuckster57]

As a tech that has seen this too many times to count. Get a new battery, before you end up buying new parts that are much more money and much harder to access.

[flybouy]

Let me blunt: (Yeah, there's a first) You can afford an RV, you can afford a TV, you certainly afford a hundred bucks for a new battery to replace one that boiled a gallon of water out of it. Consider it one of life's little lessons. These guys wouldn't steer you wrong....well, Marshall might if you rubbed him the wrong way! :D:hide:

I'd never steer anyone wrong at least knowingly. Just not in the mood to argue with someone who's convinced they have the answer.

[Folkie]

When a battery has had the water boiled out of it it's not OK. A typical deep cycle battery should never be discharged below 50%. I have posted previously, and had new batteries replaced by a dealership free of charge, because they had let them totally discharge one time. They were skeptical until I sent them the Interstate publication on the batteries that said 1 (ONE) total discharge reduced the ability of the battery to recharge and hold a charge by 83% - one time.

Is there any chance you have a link to that publication? A friend of mine could use that. He had the dealer install a 2nd battery in his new camper. The dealer tech left the lights on in the camper and when my friend came in to pick up his rig both batteries were dead.:banghead:

[sourdough]

Is there any chance you have a link to that publication? A friend of mine could use that. He had the dealer install a 2nd battery in his new camper. The dealer tech left the lights on in the camper and when my friend came in to pick up his rig both batteries were dead.:banghead:


Here it is:

https://www.intechtrailers.com/images/info/PDF/Interstate-Battery/Interstate-Battery-Marine-Grade-Battery-Maintenance-Manual.pdf


Figure 3 bottom of page 4. 1st line says if you deplete the battery to 25% then recharge it will recharge 2200 times. If you deplete it one time 100% the remaining charges left is only 250. That means you lost 1950 charges of that 2200 due to the 100% discharge = 88.6% reduction. So yeah, the dealership can say, as mine did, they charged just fine all is OK....no, it's not. The damage they incurred just got transferred to the owner to have to deal with at a later time....just not a lot later. After I explained it to the SM & GM I got 2 new Interstate batteries to replace the new ones I had put in. They in turn got 2 "new looking" Interstates that I hope they disposed of but......

[Folkie]

Thanks a lot. I know taking them below 50% was not good, but it is nice to see some numbers to show the impact to performance life.

[mikz86ta]

Their generator appears to have 2 15a, 1 50a, 1 30a/240 and 1 30a/120 plugs.
They should not need any adapter for it. Just plug their 30a ship to shore cable in.

https://www.duromaxpower.com/products/duromax-xp12000eh-dual-fuel-portable-gas-propane-generator

[skids]

Thanks a lot. I know taking them below 50% was not good, but it is nice to see some numbers to show the impact to performance life.

Yeah, it is an eye opener.

[flybouy]

Their generator appears to have 2 15a, 1 50a, 1 30a/240 and 1 30a/120 plugs.
They should not need any adapter for it. Just plug their 30a ship to shore cable in.

https://www.duromaxpower.com/products/duromax-xp12000eh-dual-fuel-portable-gas-propane-generator

The OP has a 30 Amp shore power which requires a 30 Amp RV receptacle (TT-30), hence the adapter.

[GHen]

I don’t understand why there are different 30amp plug arrangements, I’m sure there is a good reason that I’m not aware of.....
In my shop have a 30 amp welder plug and a 30amp rv plug...

[flybouy]

The 30 amp RV plug was originally for electric dryers. It did not provide a ground when wired for 220 v service so a separate ground was required to connect the dryer to the outlet box. This caused issues when old timers first started wiring home RV service outlets when they were unaware of the 30 amp 120 volt usage.

A grounded 30 amp 220 volt plug was made to accommodate a ground pin and the 4 conductor 30 amp plug was born.

[GHen]

Thanks for the explanation