Upgrade rim size and tires

[traynoral]

Hi All,

I have a 2019 Keystone Cougar 32BHS. I am wanting to go to a larger wheel and tire size for several reasons, but the main reason is to gain a little height to level out the trailer with my truck. I have already had installed a two inch steel block under the leafs to get a little height which has also given me a little more wheel well clearance. My plan is to go from my 225/75 15s to 235/80 16s. As far as I can measure it looks like I have plenty of clearance to do this.

Has anyone done this on their Cougar Half Ton Fifth Wheel? If so, how did it work for you and what tire/wheel combo did you go with?

[bobbecky]

You will only gain 1.25” in height. Comparing specs on the Goodyear Endurance tires on Tirerack, the 15” tire is 28.3” in diameter and the 16” tire is 30.8” in diameter, so, for a difference of 2.5”, half of that isn’t much for what it’s going to cost to make the change, but that’s your decision if that’s what you want to do. It would have been cheaper to add another inch at your axles.

[gearhead]

Before you spend money on tires be sure you can find wheels for your lug bolt pattern.

[notanlines]

Al, can we maybe get a picture of your rig hooked up? Maybe tell us how much clearance you have at your truck bed right now...

[traynoral]

Thanks for your replies.

It is a 6 5-1/2 bolt pattern so that part is not a problem for a 16 inch rim. I do have to replace the tires anyway, so my only optional cost would be the rims. Also, I should be able to get a little money for selling the old alloys as they are fairly new. The place that put the blocks in said that I should not go higher than two inches. I did look at going with 235/85s over 235/80s, however that will only give me 1 to 1.5 inches of clearance between my tandem tires, which I feel is too close.

My other reason to upgrading is I want to go to a better grade of tire (most likely the GY Endurance's) and with the larger tire size I will have more weight capacity. I don't plan on overloading the rig but would like to have that tire capacity buffer to be on the safe side.

What I am really wondering is if anyone has done a similar upgrade and how well has it worked for you.

[flybouy]

Thanks for your replies.

It is a 6 5-1/2 bolt pattern so that part is not a problem for a 16 inch rim. I do have to replace the tires anyway, so my only optional cost would be the rims. Also, I should be able to get a little money for selling the old alloys as they are fairly new. The place that put the blocks in said that I should not go higher than two inches. I did look at going with 235/85s over 235/80s, however that will only give me 1 to 1.5 inches of clearance between my tandem tires, which I feel is too close.

My other reason to upgrading is I want to go to a better grade of tire (most likely the GY Endurance's) and with the larger tire size I will have more weight capacity. I don't plan on overloading the rig but would like to have that tire capacity buffer to be on the safe side.

What I am really wondering is if anyone has done a similar upgrade and how well has it worked for you.
You will not increase weight capacity changing tires, that number is based on the suspension system, springs, axles, bearings, spindles, etc. You will gain a larger percentage of "cushion" above capacity. You can put the wheels/tires from a 18 wheeler under it and it's won't change the load capacity.

[traynoral]

You will not increase weight capacity changing tires, that number is based on the suspension system, springs, axles, bearings, spindles, etc. You will gain a larger percentage of "cushion" above capacity. You can put the wheels/tires from a 18 wheeler under it and it's won't change the load capacity.

Thank you. Yes, I do understand that. I am just trying to make sure my tires are not the "weakest link" as far as capacity goes.

[CWtheMan]

I deleted my previous post. Your change in height is just to radical to do without certification. I don't have the experience to do it's math.

I will say this though. There are ST225/75R15 LRF all steel tires already on the market.

[JRTJH]

We've got a couple of members that have changed from 14" to 15" wheel/tire combinations. I don't remember offhand anyone that has converted from 15's to 16" that has reported their experience in previous posts. There have been a couple who "talked about it" but I can't remember anyone actually saying, "I changed from 15's to 16's and this is how it went"....

You may be in "uncharted waters" but that certainly doesn't make it impossible to do... Heck, people have been putting 24" wheels on Suburban SUV's for years now, some even with "spinning hubcaps"... They survived, I don't see any reason why you wouldn't survive too.

If you decide to do it, please document your experience and observations !!!

[traynoral]

We've got a couple of members that have changed from 14" to 15" wheel/tire combinations. I don't remember offhand anyone that has converted from 15's to 16" that has reported their experience in previous posts. There have been a couple who "talked about it" but I can't remember anyone actually saying, "I changed from 15's to 16's and this is how it went"....

You may be in "uncharted waters" but that certainly doesn't make it impossible to do... Heck, people have been putting 24" wheels on Suburban SUV's for years now, some even with "spinning hubcaps"... They survived, I don't see any reason why you wouldn't survive too.

If you decide to do it, please document your experience and observations !!!

I absolutely will. Thank you for your feedback.

[hornet28]

Do it. You know you can get the wheels and the difference in height has be taken care of by the 2" blocks. As far as naysayers some wouldn't change the wattage on a light bulb without an investigation

[fjr vfr]

I considered going to 16" wheels, but then I balked. When we are staying places I always walk around and see what other people are doing. If I see something interesting I'll often ask about it. Most everyone is happy showing their trailer mods.

With that said, I have seen a good number of raised trailers. Many owners welded up a sub frame and attached their spring mounts below. I've come across people in the south west that spend a lot of time boon docking on BLM land and wanted lots of clearance. Some trailers are very high.
So with that I'd say instead of blocking your axle maybe you could look into welding something to the frame so you can lower the whole suspension.
But before doing anything you should post some pictures here. Maybe you don't need to do anything? :)

[CWtheMan]

Does anyone read their vehicle’s certification label?

There is a list of equipment items in the vehicle certification regulation that can be changed without hindering the intent of vehicle certification without being certified. Tires, wheels, brakes, axles etc.. are on that list. Chassis modifications of any sort are not on that list.

"This vehicle conforms to all applicable US Federal motor vehicle safety standards in effect on the date of manufacturer."

See 49 CFR part 567, vehicle certification/modification.

[lunge motorsport]

Interesting post with a lot of differing viewpoints...


For me, safety is paramount. Someone mentioned changes that do not meet the regs regarding certification by the manufacturer.
The manufacturer of my rig is Keystone whose certification label was attached to a coach with a GVWR of 10,300 lbs. The 2 axles were rated at 4400 lbs each with 3 extraordinarily flimsy 3/16'' u brackets on each side supporting 2 axles. I've read many posts about these tearing off of the frame due to side load shear and I watched and heard my old leaf spring axles squeal in pain as I jack knifed the rig to get into a very tight camping space. Most rigs are certified with undersized wheels and tires , marginal axles, brakes, and leaf springs to locate the crappy mess.


Okay, there will be legal ramifications if your mods fail and you take an innocent out, not to mention the lifelong guilt that would accompany it. But I fully endorse well researched and executed mods that are superior in every way to the junk that is certified by the manufacturers. I raised my rig 3'' to obtain a level towing attitude and the mod included new 17'' rims. It was expensive even though I performed all the work. The coach now has real suspension, brakes, wheels and tires and tows like a dream. It is not certified by anyone but me but I will bet my life and yours on it!


Waiting for a reasonable argument...



Photos in my albums
Cheers

[Roscommon48]

you might want to go up a 'rating' while at it. make sure the wheels match the psi of the tires.

[notanlines]

Darrel, I'm curious how you feel you benefited by the 3" to tow level. Was this to add clearance to the bed of the truck?

[CWtheMan]

It is not certified by anyone but me but I will bet my life and yours on it!


Waiting for a reasonable argument...



Photos in my albums
Cheers

That's why we have rules and regulations to guide us.

You're probably in violation of federal vehicle certification regulations. Are you a certified vehicle modifier?

Refer to: 49 CFR part 567.6

[travelin texans]

That's why we have rules and regulations to guide us.

You're probably in violation of federal vehicle certification regulations. Are you a certified vehicle modifier?

Refer to: 49 CFR part 567.6

Highly doubt he is nor any of the rest of us that have made necessary modifications to improve ride or functionality of our rv. Apparently upgrading a load range or size on tires will/has already broken the regulations.
Plus I personally have NEVER been stopped nor questioned by anyone, whoever may have that responsibility, as to whether any of those modifications were done by a certified individual as per the referenced code mentioned above. I have however been asked by several how I've done some of the mods so that they can do the same.
Not trying to be argumentative, but if they would build them better, maybe 1 step above rather than just barely enough, to begin with these modifications wouldn't be necessary.

[flybouy]

The way I see it it's mainly a result of our society being over litigious and the accepted idea that someone must "pay" for your loss (either real or imagined). Combine that with an overzealous government that wants to regulate everything and doesn't understand how most of it works.

Don't get me wrong, if someone (individual or company) does undo harm then they should be penalized but good gracious the television just bombards use with Lawyer commercials telling us how to get rich. Regulations are necessary but what seems to be missing is the good old common sense.

Wasn't that many years ago that you could go to a welding shop and get a hitch made or a modification to "beef up" a suspension. There were "spring shops" that would re-arch or add a leaf. Those places are disappearing and I miss them. Typically it was owned and operated by a guy that wasn't an MIT engineer, may or may not have been a certified welder, but knew what you needed, could "rig it up" and if it was going to get you into trouble tell you no and refuse to do it. His most valuable skill was the implementation of common sense. They don't teach that at the "trade schools" or certification programs unfortunately. Now everyone must be "certified" and become "technicians or specialists" . That's a great word. I saw a news bit last night on "Certified Pre-Owned Cars" and how most of them are meaningless. By definition, they are certifying that someone bought the car, used it, and now it's for sale again. And people are eating it up.

I'll take a a person that's experienced that's got common sense but that's a rapidly dying breed these days.

JMHO

[JRTJH]

Since I got my first driver's license (at 15 years old) I've been "modifying vehicles" it started by changing out the 1950 Chevy turtleback 2 door coupe tires for whitewalls and changing those DAMN itchy wool OEM seat covers for plastic ones. Even my 1968 Plymouth Barracuda SS I installed a "mini-8 and two speakers" in addition to "huge redwall rear tires" called cheater slicks...

Almost every 4x4 from the first 1960 Ford F100 got 35" tires to replace the "bicycle tires from the factory". I think I supported Micky Thompson for most of my adult life.

The 1972 Dodge truck needed a 2" receiver, so the local welding shop "built one and welded it to the frame". When I bought our 1975 Blazer, that same shop "cut the hitch off the Dodge and welded it to the Blazer."

I can't count the number of times I've had a leaf added to the rear springs, or added "overload shocks" with spring packs attached, to lift the rear end so those "big Micky Thompson's won't rub the wheelwells when driving on a washboard gravel road"...

So, I'm not one to "be afraid" of putting 16" wheels/tires on a Cougar that came with 15" wheels that offered ZERO weight capacity beyond the axle ratings or the trailer GVW.

If this were catechism, I suppose I'd have my knuckles bleeding from that damn ruler.... But, living in a "free country" so far, I've never "bled for changing wheel/tire size".....

[CWtheMan]

Earlier in this thread I referenced the way to find this link. Remember, the following reference is out of context because it is .6 of 7.

https://www.govregs.com/regulations/title49_chapterV_part567_section567.6

Those of you that regularly read my posts know my agenda is to post it the way it’s supposed to be done.

Because most of the regulations and standards rely on user adherence, it puts a lot of pressure on enforcement and will not normally come into play unless an industry standard has been violated and found during some sort of vehicle inspection. When found in violation you’ll probably hear the comment “you shouldn’t have done that” just before judgment is rendered.

After many years of posting in threads like this one, it has become very clear to me that few consumers know how to read government regulations and standards. Here’s a Hypothetical: A vehicle certification label lists the installed tires to be ST225/75R15 LRD and they are mounted on rims 15X6. The recommended inflation pressure for the tires is 65 PSI cold. A NHTSA mandated entry to the vehicle’s owner’s manual states – in part – that the consumer needs to get approval from the vehicle manufacturer before changing the OE tires designated size. The trailer was built to minimum standards in accordance with FMVSS (standards). The vehicle manufacturer was not required to use wheels/rims with more certified inflation pressure than required by the OE tires. For the vehicle manufacturer to recommend tires with a higher PSI value than the OE wheels are certified to provide would require them to provide new wheels/rims.

Because tire load range is not part of a tire’s designated size, vehicle manufacturers may provide wheels certified to the highest load range within a designated size. I wouldn’t bet on that with the ST235/80R16 because there are 5 load ranges in that designated size and the vehicle manufacturer has an opportunity to notify NHTSA of the highest load range used for any particular fitment. Remember, load range, not load index, is the official load capacity indicator for LT & ST tires.

[Sarge2]

My new 2600 passport has 14" tires... can I go up to 15" or even 16" and would it be worth it? I really haven't checked the tire brand but I'm sure they are not "top of the line" lol... wonder if I should hold off until I'm actually doing some cross country traveling...Any input would be appreciated...
Sarge

[traynoral]

My new 2600 passport has 14" tires... can I go up to 15" or even 16" and would it be worth it? I really haven't checked the tire brand but I'm sure they are not "top of the line" lol... wonder if I should hold off until I'm actually doing some cross country traveling...Any input would be appreciated...
Sarge

If you can would depend on a few factors. Including but not limited to sidewall, height, and tire to tire (if tandem axle) clearances. Bolt pattern is also something that would need to be checked.

Unless you are looking for more ground clearance or if you feel the stock size does not offer a safe margin of weight capacity buffer compared to the GVWR of the trailer, then I do not believe that moving up in size would offer you much benefit.

That being said, moving to a better brand/model of tire is most likely a good idea, assuming (pretty safe assumption) that the stock tires are not that good.

[hornet28]

Lets see. 1941 Ford, Nova subframe, chopped top, other than stock size wheels and tires, shaved door handles, tinted glass, converted to 4 whl disc brakes, 454 BBC, 700R4 automatic, and the list goes on. In the opinion of some on here it's illegal. I have too wonder why then a well know old car insurance company has insured it for $60K +

[JRTJH]

My new 2600 passport has 14" tires... can I go up to 15" or even 16" and would it be worth it? I really haven't checked the tire brand but I'm sure they are not "top of the line" lol... wonder if I should hold off until I'm actually doing some cross country traveling...Any input would be appreciated...
Sarge

Your "limiting factor" I believe is finding wheels with enough weight capacity for larger tires. All the 14" wheels I've seen are 5 lug design. To "upgrade significantly" would require wheels with 6 lugs. That would mean a hub change (if you can find suitable hubs with 6 lugs to fit your axles) or changing out axles, wheels and tires....

You can "go up a bit" with 15" 5 lug wheels, but you'll be limited significantly until you can get into the 15" 6 lug wheels/hubs...

[CWtheMan]

Lets see. 1941 Ford, Nova subframe, chopped top, other than stock size wheels and tires, shaved door handles, tinted glass, converted to 4 whl disc brakes, 454 BBC, 700R4 automatic, and the list goes on. In the opinion of some on here it's illegal. I have too wonder why then a well know old car insurance company has insured it for $60K +

Probably because the owner found a certified modifier to approve it.

[fjr vfr]

Here's an example right on our forum of a lifted trailer. Form these pictures I would say it is every bit as strong as before and probably stronger than OEM.
I have seen many similar examples over the years. I wouldn't hesitate to do it, as long as it's done right.



https://www.keystoneforums.com/forums/album.php?albumid=972

[travelin texans]

Here's an example right on our forum of a lifted trailer. Form these pictures I would say it is every bit as strong as before and probably stronger than OEM.
I have seen many similar examples over the years. I wouldn't hesitate to do it, as long as it's done right.



https://www.keystoneforums.com/forums/album.php?albumid=972

Not every Tom, Dick & Harry would have the skills or mechanical knowledge even think about a project like that, which by the way is a very good modification. Plus there are companies that do exactly the same.
If the same folks that are "certifying" RVs now would look under that particular RV I'd bet most would never recognize the modifications or a change in tire/wheel sizes. Most need to look a little closer at some of the stuff they roll out the factory door that have been "certified".
I fully understand the regulations, but if it's certified for XX then the owner upgrades to XXX or even XXXX how could that in any way cause harm or be unsafe. Now if certified for XX & the individual changes to X then I can see that's a problem.
Usually the factory certifies at XX & installs XX not one tiny bit more than absolutely necessary. Example a 10k GVWR RV with "certified" tandem 4400lb axles = 8800, yes I know minus tongue weight, but why not use tandem 5200lb axles.

[hornet28]

Probably because the owner found a certified modifier to approve it.

No not required. I show this as an example that some don't know all they think they do. As I said in a previous comment, some here are so hung up on how they interpret what they read and are told they wouldn't change the wattage of the light bulb in a lamp. They continually preach from their supposed lofty knowledge about most anything and of course are never wrong.
I speak as owner and co-builder of the 41 Ford

[notanlines]

Hornet, very nice ride! Might I ask how many miles on it since your 'work' was completed? We try to make a number of shows every year, including the Back to the 50's in St Paul, world's largest. Certainly fun to walk around the 12-15,000 cars and gawk.

[CWtheMan]

No not required. I show this as an example that some don't know all they think they do. As I said in a previous comment, some here are so hung up on how they interpret what they read and are told they wouldn't change the wattage of the light bulb in a lamp. They continually preach from their supposed lofty knowledge about most anything and of course are never wrong.
I speak as owner and co-builder of the 41 Ford

As altered does it conform to all applicable Federal Motor Vehicle Safety, Bumper and Theft Prevention Standards?

You do know this is a RV trailer thread?

The regulations that were in place when the trailer was manufactured are much different than those for autos 75 years old.

[hornet28]

notanlines, it has 99600 mi on it. Never been to Back To The 50's. But the car has been driven to Ca. twice, Fla. 3 times and also to PEI & Nova Scotia

Cw I know it's a trailer forum. I was making a point that just because something is different than manufactured doesn't mean it's illegal. Will you ever understand that? I'm done and I think others understand why

[lunge motorsport]

Greetings
In response to Jim"s question...To tow level is a requirement for Torsion style axles. There is no equalization between for and aft axles on a tandem Torsion axle rig so un level towing would put a greater load on one of the axles. In my case since I upgraded from 4400lb axles to 7000lb axles it wouldn't probably matter too much unless it was an extreme attitude (hahaha extreme attitude, are you listening Calvin?).

I boondock a lot and get into some pretty rough areas at times. I have seen near contact with the frame rails at 7'' of clearance. I anticipated this during my calc's and built it into my design. My rig tows absolutely level on the highway and tracks even better due to the wheel, axle, and tire combo I have chosen.

Calvin...No I am not a certified modifier for the record. I'm curious though, did you even look at the photo's in the album I referenced before you made the comment? BTW, thank you for your service Sir.


Cheers

[CWtheMan]

Greetings
In response to Jim"s question...To tow level is a requirement for Torsion style axles. There is no equalization between for and aft axles on a tandem Torsion axle rig so un level towing would put a greater load on one of the axles. In my case since I upgraded from 4400lb axles to 7000lb axles it wouldn't probably matter too much unless it was an extreme attitude (hahaha extreme attitude, are you listening Calvin?).

I boondock a lot and get into some pretty rough areas at times. I have seen near contact with the frame rails at 7'' of clearance. I anticipated this during my calc's and built it into my design. My rig tows absolutely level on the highway and tracks even better due to the wheel, axle, and tire combo I have chosen.

Calvin...No I am not a certified modifier for the record. I'm curious though, did you even look at the photo's in the album I referenced before you made the comment? BTW, thank you for your service Sir.


Cheers

I really wanted to back out of this thread because I'm a "by the rules" writer and many that modify are not willing to go by the rules. Therefore I'm just a thorn in their butt.

Regardless of increased axle capacity, the vehicle certified GAWRs remain unchanged. Vehicle GAWRs and GVWR can only be changed by the vehicle manufacturer or a certified modifier.

Changing wheels/tires to something larger than what is depicted on the certification label is a misapplication if not approved by the vehicle manufacturer. (That's in the Keystone owner's manual).

It looks like you did some welding on your trailer's frame. That would require two certifications. Is the welder certified to do the welding and did the finished modification meet with the approval of the frame builder?

[gearhead]

Well, this was a good Management of Change meeting. Sounds about the same as the many I sat through. The same issue of common sense fighting change of someone else's design.
Just changing tires would seem like a no brainer. But, think about unintended consequences of other mods. Look for that new weak link.
Kinda like adding larger piping to a huge cooling water tower, until it collapsed. The look on that production managers face when I told him..."Russ the cooling water tower is falling down". That was a multi million dollar fix. Fortunately no injuries.
You have to take it seriously.
If I had some welding done on a critical component I would select the welder carefully and at least do a dye penetrant test and maybe a wet mag particle inspection. Lippert most likely doesn't, but I would.

[flybouy]

Gearhead I understand and agree about the unintended consequences. It mostly goes back to common sense. In my thinking, if an axel, let's say has a 3k rating with 14" rims. If that same axle is available with identical parts (I.e. breaks, bearings) with 15" rims then increasing from 14 to 15 should be acceptable. If not, then it warrants further investigating.

One of the most common mistakes among "back yard" modifiers is the mounting of the "big rims" (22" +) and huge tires on otherwise stock suspensions. The increased rotating mass often results in brake and bearing premature wear and failures.

The possible "unintended consequences" of amatures welding on frames can lead to catastrophic failure. A certified welder non't turn on a cheap "buzz box" and use a universal stick to apply some "bubble gum". He will know what metals he's welding, their thickness, the proper setting for the material (ac or DC, amperage,polarity, MiG or tig, etc) to get the proper penetration. He will also know if he can make a complete pass or if he needs to "stitch" the welds with spot welding to control the heat so that he doesn't compromise the metal strength, hardness, or malleability.

The "back yard" welder may do a fine job of fixing their lawn mower or creating some law art but I don't want to follow a 10k trailer lifted by someone who "thought they knew what they doing".

JMHO

[gearhead]

Yes sir, vendors welding procedures was one of our bigger issues in the previous life. From the initial Positive Material Identification to post weld inspection. We sat around a conference table many days with our in house welders, metallurgists, and rotating equipment engineers documenting weld procedures for vendors. We thought our own shop welders were unequaled in Houston's petrochem industry, but having work done in outside shops was always a worry. We did a lot of our own rotating equipment repair but depending on several factors we would also use outside shops. That required a lot of documentation and visits. A lot of the repair shops would send out, sub contract, the welding work and some other tasks. We had to prevent that from being "covered up" when the job was complete.
I was responsible for 400+ pumps of all imaginable sizes, 100+ steam turbines, 200+ forced air coolers, 4 big reciprocating compressors, and one high speed (14,000RPM+) centrifugal hydrogen compressor. Anywhere between 5-50 out of service at any one time. Flying by the seat of your pants regarding repairs would results in bad things happening and putting the surrounding public at risk. If my boss lady thought I was going cowboy on repair standards I would have retired from somewhere else.
Being fat dumb and happy modifying a RV can lead to bad things. But doing your own due diligence and seeking the advice of others could result in good things.

[JRTJH]

I really wanted to back out of this thread because I'm a "by the rules" writer and many that modify are not willing to go by the rules. Therefore I'm just a thorn in their butt.

Regardless of increased axle capacity, the vehicle certified GAWRs remain unchanged. Vehicle GAWRs and GVWR can only be changed by the vehicle manufacturer or a certified modifier.

Changing wheels/tires to something larger than what is depicted on the certification label is a misapplication if not approved by the vehicle manufacturer. (That's in the Keystone owner's manual).

It looks like you did some welding on your trailer's frame. That would require two certifications. Is the welder certified to do the welding and did the finished modification meet with the approval of the frame builder?

Calvin,

What you "postulate" may be "correct in the grand scheme of "bureaucratic bulls**t", it honestly bears little credence to reality.

Michigan, Colorado, Louisiana, Mississippi and Texas (the only states where I've actually registered and licensed a "home built trailer", do not require any "federal certification of "as built by the manufacturer".... In fact, building a trailer from bed frame rails, an old axle and a "cut off coupler from an old trailer" complete with wheels and tires of my choice has been registered and licensed in every one of those states. When I built them, obviously there was no serial number, so in most of the states, I had to go to the state police headquarters to have a serial number stamped on the tongue. Then, back to DMV where they processed a title, a registration and handed me a license plate... Perfectly "LEGAL" to tow it on any road in the USA. I've never had any "motor vehicle outfitter certification" nor have I ever been a "certified welder" (although I did take night classes at the local high school in Denver to learn how to weld).

While there may be some "grand bureaucratic scheme to control vehicle/trailer modifications", those burdensome requirements were completely ignored in every state in which I've "done my own thing and built a trailer" and NO state has had absolutely any reluctance to title, register and provide a license plate to hang on the back... In every case, the only requirement was to "prove that I didn't steal it before they would register it"...

Of course, as usual, I suppose I could have spent an "adult lifetime" trying to navigate the bureaucratic bulls**t, but I'd have to ask, WHY ?????

[CWtheMan]

Calvin,

What you "postulate" may be "correct in the grand scheme of "bureaucratic bulls**t", it honestly bears little credence to reality.

Michigan, Colorado, Louisiana, Mississippi and Texas (the only states where I've actually registered and licensed a "home built trailer", do not require any "federal certification of "as built by the manufacturer".... In fact, building a trailer from bed frame rails, an old axle and a "cut off coupler from an old trailer" complete with wheels and tires of my choice has been registered and licensed in every one of those states. When I built them, obviously there was no serial number, so in most of the states, I had to go to the state police headquarters to have a serial number stamped on the tongue. Then, back to DMV where they processed a title, a registration and handed me a license plate... Perfectly "LEGAL" to tow it on any road in the USA. I've never had any "motor vehicle outfitter certification" nor have I ever been a "certified welder" (although I did take night classes at the local high school in Denver to learn how to weld).

While there may be some "grand bureaucratic scheme to control vehicle/trailer modifications", those burdensome requirements were completely ignored in every state in which I've "done my own thing and built a trailer" and NO state has had absolutely any reluctance to title, register and provide a license plate to hang on the back... In every case, the only requirement was to "prove that I didn't steal it before they would register it"...

Of course, as usual, I suppose I could have spent an "adult lifetime" trying to navigate the bureaucratic bulls**t, but I'd have to ask, WHY ?????

Home built is not the same as mass manufactured. Home built has to comply with their state's regulations and standards.

Mass built for the public/consumer use requires federal certification. That introduces another set of completely different rules and regulations.

[sourdough]

Well, this was a good Management of Change meeting. Sounds about the same as the many I sat through. The same issue of common sense fighting change of someone else's design.
Just changing tires would seem like a no brainer. But, think about unintended consequences of other mods. Look for that new weak link.
Kinda like adding larger piping to a huge cooling water tower, until it collapsed. The look on that production managers face when I told him..."Russ the cooling water tower is falling down". That was a multi million dollar fix. Fortunately no injuries.
You have to take it seriously.
If I had some welding done on a critical component I would select the welder carefully and at least do a dye penetrant test and maybe a wet mag particle inspection. Lippert most likely doesn't, but I would.




^^^^^This x2. "Welding" on a critical component isn't just "welding" like Billy Bob does down at the shop in Podunk. I learned that a long time ago....

Bought a new motorcycle back in about 1970. Just a regular street bike. Ran with a group that had big road Harley's, choppers....the gamut. Several had the foot pegs out front off the frame and I didn't have that. After a couple of road trips that looked like something I wanted. Went to a local welder to see what could be done and he said "sure", I can just weld a bar across those 2 front frame members and you'll have foot pegs, so we did. Fast forward a few months and took it into another shop for some unrelated issue and the VERY first thing the guy did was look at those welds on the 2 front frame members, how they were done, penetration etc. He told me it was a huge miracle those tubes had not just buckled going down the road due to the penetration of the welds. Scared the you know what out of me. Sold the bike with full disclosure to a guy that said he would "reinforce" it then bought another one.

The above is just an example of those unintended consequences from just doing something thinking "it's OK, it's doing what I wanted"; maybe, maybe not. Many things to consider when modifying equipment to achieve a certain goal - you have to think through every action taken to assure it has not affected something else in a negative way.

[Sarge2]

I appreciate all the responses in regard to the tire and wheel size, and since I'm a bit of a gear head myself, I also appreciate a good ride when I see it... :D
Stay safe my friends...
Sarge
by the way, probably take the advise to improve the quality of tire and not the size... thanks again

[traynoral]

I appreciate all the responses in regard to the tire and wheel size, and since I'm a bit of a gear head myself, I also appreciate a good ride when I see it... :D
Stay safe my friends...
Sarge
by the way, probably take the advise to improve the quality of tire and not the size... thanks again

Great. Let us know what you end up getting for tires and how well they perform.

[lunge motorsport]

So Calvin …I feel compelled to respond again to you.
My original reply to the original post was a because I believe that RV manufacturers have received certifications on big trailers with marginal suspension and brakes. I have owned a few and they have used marginal components throughout. So when someone is modifying a vehicle to meet the certification standard by the manufacturer, that is a minimum and should be considered as such. I also mentioned that there are those on the forum that are hung up on this certification as the gospel, never to be deviated from. Hello Calvin…
You, then cited a Federal regulation with a link to back up your claim about the certification standard held by the NHTSA. Here is the section as copied you’re your post. https://www.govregs.com/regulations/...7_section567.6
You failed to mention that this regulation applies to vehicles provided to 2nd party outfitters who receive chassis’ for modification and then desire to make changes to the GVWR rating. Those vehicles will then be resold as a motorhome or ambulance or some other type of vehicle. It wholly misleading to claim that those regulations apply to the end user. For a guy to claim he is a thorn in the side of others wishing to improve their vehicles because he is a rules guy that then misrepresents the rules is suspect behavior. What is the motivation for your withholding that critical piece of info from your post? Here is more text that should be of interest to those on the forum who are or have been influenced by “The rules guy” “

...The term GVWR is defined in 49 CFR Part 571.3 as ‘the value specified by the manufacturer as the loaded weight of a single vehicle.’ the GVWR informs vehicle owners how heavily the vehicle may safely be loaded. It also affects the vehicle’s loading and other tests conditions for the performance tests to ascertain whether the vehicle complies with applicable safety standards. NHTSA expects the GVWR to reflect a manufacturer’s good-faith evaluation of the vehicle’s size, weight, load carrying capacity, and intended use.”

“NHTSA’s regulations on GVWR only addresses the GVWR of new vehicles. This is because the agency’s safety standards apply only to new motor vehicles and new motor vehicle equipment. There is a provision, §108(a)(2)(A), in the Vehicle Safety Act that prohibits manufacturers, distributors, dealers and motor vehicle repair businesses from knowingly rendering inoperative in whole or in part any device or element of design installed in accordance with a Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard. These parties would be subject to this provision if they were to modify your vehicle’s suspension. However, the provision does not apply to individual owners modifying their own vehicles.”

“Because we do not regulate how individuals modify their own vehicles (and thus do not prohibit you from modifying your vehicle’s suspension), we are unable to advise you about the specific modifications that must be made to a vehicle for it to safely carry an additional 1,000 pounds. Among other things, however, you should carefully evaluate whether the vehicle’s axles, brakes, tires, and frame can adequately handle the additional load. We suggest you consult with the original vehicle manufacturer about this question. You may also wish to consult a local attorney concerning possible liability in the event your vehicle is involved in an accident.”

Now Calvin....maybe you can help me understand how this section of the regs applies to the end user? Maybe I’ve got this all wrong here?

There are a few more on this forum that cited their backgrounds making statements such as backyard mechanic, bubble gum from a buzz box, and that a guy that may be able to weld up his lawn more is not qualified to make a modification to a vehicle without the proper non-existent regulations. One poster said that he would not want to be around a coach on the highway with such mods. Wow! What blow hards you guys are. You have no idea about the qualifications that a guy may have to make upgrades.

So for me, I will continue to offer advice to those that request it, if I have the knowledge to help, and I will now try to understand what motivates members who wish to show authority on any subject here.
Darrel

[CWtheMan]

So Calvin …I feel compelled to respond again to you.
My original reply to the original post was a because I believe that RV manufacturers have received certifications on big trailers with marginal suspension and brakes. I have owned a few and they have used marginal components throughout. So when someone is modifying a vehicle to meet the certification standard by the manufacturer, that is a minimum and should be considered as such. I also mentioned that there are those on the forum that are hung up on this certification as the gospel, never to be deviated from. Hello Calvin…
You, then cited a Federal regulation with a link to back up your claim about the certification standard held by the NHTSA. Here is the section as copied you’re your post. https://www.govregs.com/regulations/...7_section567.6
You failed to mention that this regulation applies to vehicles provided to 2nd party outfitters who receive chassis’ for modification and then desire to make changes to the GVWR rating. Those vehicles will then be resold as a motorhome or ambulance or some other type of vehicle. It wholly misleading to claim that those regulations apply to the end user. For a guy to claim he is a thorn in the side of others wishing to improve their vehicles because he is a rules guy that then misrepresents the rules is suspect behavior. What is the motivation for your withholding that critical piece of info from your post? Here is more text that should be of interest to those on the forum who are or have been influenced by “The rules guy” “

You can't get out of context and provide a complete answer. This is the entire .6 you speak of... § 567.6
Requirements for persons who do not alter certified vehicles or do so with readily attachable components.
A person who does not alter a motor vehicle or who alters such a vehicle only by the addition, substitution, or removal of readily attachable components such as mirrors or tires and rim assemblies, or minor finishing operations such as painting, in such a manner that the vehicle's stated weight ratings are still valid, need not affix a label to the vehicle, but shall allow a manufacturer's label that conforms to the requirements of this part to remain affixed to the vehicle. If such a person is a distributor of the motor vehicle, allowing the manufacturer's label to remain affixed to the vehicle shall satisfy the distributor's certification requirements under the Vehicle Safety Act. …

The term GVWR is defined in 49 CFR Part 571.3 as ‘the value specified by the manufacturer as the loaded weight of a single vehicle.’ the GVWR informs vehicle owners how heavily the vehicle may safely be loaded. It also affects the vehicle’s loading and other tests conditions for the performance tests to ascertain whether the vehicle complies with applicable safety standards. NHTSA expects the GVWR to reflect a manufacturer’s good-faith evaluation of the vehicle’s size, weight, load carrying capacity, and intended use.”

You're out of context again. "Gross vehicle weight rating or GVWR means the value specified by the manufacturer as the loaded weight of a single vehicle." That's the full extent of the definition. Compliance with vehicle safety is a series of all sorts of other things and the vehicle manufacturer attested to them with a sworn statement on the vehicle certification label.

“NHTSA’s regulations on GVWR only addresses the GVWR of new vehicles. This is because the agency’s safety standards apply only to new motor vehicles and new motor vehicle equipment. There is a provision, §108(a)(2)(A), in the Vehicle Safety Act that prohibits manufacturers, distributors, dealers and motor vehicle repair businesses from knowingly rendering inoperative in whole or in part any device or element of design installed in accordance with a Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard. These parties would be subject to this provision if they were to modify your vehicle’s suspension. However, the provision does not apply to individual owners modifying their own vehicles.” You're overlooking industry standards.

“Because we do not regulate how individuals modify their own vehicles (and thus do not prohibit you from modifying your vehicle’s suspension), we are unable to advise you about the specific modifications that must be made to a vehicle for it to safely carry an additional 1,000 pounds. Among other things, however, you should carefully evaluate whether the vehicle’s axles, brakes, tires, and frame can adequately handle the additional load. We suggest you consult with the original vehicle manufacturer about this question. You may also wish to consult a local attorney concerning possible liability in the event your vehicle is involved in an accident.”

Now Calvin....maybe you can help me understand how this section of the regs applies to the end user? Maybe I’ve got this all wrong here?

There are a few more on this forum that cited their backgrounds making statements such as backyard mechanic, bubble gum from a buzz box, and that a guy that may be able to weld up his lawn more is not qualified to make a modification to a vehicle without the proper non-existent regulations. One poster said that he would not want to be around a coach on the highway with such mods. Wow! What blow hards you guys are. You have no idea about the qualifications that a guy may have to make upgrades.

So for me, I will continue to offer advice to those that request it, if I have the knowledge to help, and I will now try to understand what motivates members who wish to show authority on any subject here.
Darrel

GVWR is the ultimate limiter. The vehicle is built to standards that insure it is safe to operate when the GVWR has not been exceeded.

What is a modification?

Welding something to the frame of your vehicle is a modification. Is it legal and safe? If so, by who's standards?

What is a misapplication?

Replacing Original Equipment wheels and tires that are 15" with some that are 16" is a misapplication without the approval of the vehicle manufacturer. Says who? Industry standards, it's even in the Keystone vehicle owner's manual.

[fjr vfr]

The way I interpret all these Reg's is that they apply to manufactures selling or distributors of motor vehicles. Once a vehicle is sold and titled as a private vehicle they do not apply.
In Virginia as in some other states we have an annual safety inspection. When I take my trailer in for inspection they check that it is safe to operate on the highways. They check brakes, suspension, lights, etc. and anything that might make it unsafe to operate out on public streets. They do not check whether it conforms to any new vehicle Regulations. It is a private vehicle. I am not a manufacturer selling new vehicles.

Once they affix a sticker on my vehicle I have met all state requirements...period. In states that don't have annual safety inspections the owner is still required to operate their vehicle safely and insure the maintenance of the vehicle is kept up. In all cases they do not require private owners to maintain vehicles to new vehicle regulations.
We are not selling standardized new manufactured vehicles to the public.
The federal government controls their manufacturing certifications.

We are private owners and only need to insure the safe operation of our private vehicles.

[CWtheMan]

The way I interpret all these Reg's is that they apply to manufactures selling or distributors of motor vehicles. Once a vehicle is sold and titled as a private vehicle they do not apply.
In Virginia as in some other states we have an annual safety inspection. When I take my trailer in for inspection they check that it is safe to operate on the highways. They check brakes, suspension, lights, etc. and anything that might make it unsafe to operate out on public streets. They do not check whether it conforms to any new vehicle Regulations. It is a private vehicle. I am not a manufacturer selling new vehicles.

Once they affix a sticker on my vehicle I have met all state requirements...period. In states that don't have annual safety inspections the owner is still required to operate their vehicle safely and insure the maintenance of the vehicle is kept up. In all cases they do not require private owners to maintain vehicles to new vehicle regulations.
We are not selling standardized new manufactured vehicles to the public.
The federal government controls their manufacturing certifications.

We are private owners and only need to insure the safe operation of our private vehicles.

The minimum standards for any state vehicle inspection is found in 49 CFR 570. Here is one reference to those standards. IMO it's the easiest one to read.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/part-570

[JRTJH]

The minimum standards for any state vehicle inspection is found in 49 CFR 570. Here is one reference to those standards. IMO it's the easiest one to read.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/part-570

While it may be the easiest to read, it also defines the applicability of the federal guideline:

§ 570.3 Applicability.
This part does not in itself impose requirements on any person. It is intended to be implemented by States through the highway safety program standards issued under the Highway Safety Act (23 U.S.C. 402) with respect to inspection of motor vehicles with gross vehicle weight rating of 10,000 pounds or less, except motorcycles or trailers.

§ 570.53 Applicability.
This part does not in itself impose requirements on any person. It is intended to be implemented by States through the highway safety program standards issued under the Highway Safety Act (23 U.S.C. 402) with respect to inspection of motor vehicles with gross vehicle weight rating greater than 10,000 pounds, except mobile structure trailers.

So, in the "easy to read parts", these guidelines are for the STATE to consider including in their "STATE INSPECTION" process. Many states have not implemented an inspection program and those that haven't "are in violation of the federal guideline" (if there is any violation) The guidelines apply to setting up a state inspection program and are guidelines on what to check IF an inspection program is established. It is not a requirement for any specific vehicle inspection/compliance by any owner of that vehicle... Citizens of the 50 states are not the "subject of/scope of" these guidelines. At any rate, in the "under 10K GVW" trailers and motorcycles are specifically excluded and in the "over 10K GVW" mobile structure trailers (I don't know of any motorcycle with a GVW in that range) are specifically excluded.

Now, for the definition of "mobile structure trailer": Mobile structure means a factory assembled structure or structures equipped with the necessary service connections and made so as to be readily movable as a unit or units on its (their) own running gear and designed to be with or without a permanent foundation. Mobile structure does not include manufactured homes. https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/mobile-structure

If we "research manufactured homes" (we've had many discussions about this on the forum) RV's are a type of trailer that is specifically excluded from the "manufactured home" designation. There are specifically defined exclusion criteria, formulated by RVIA and approved by the federal government and all state governments in their motor vehicle code. The "inclusion of RV's in the manufactured home designation has long been a "DON'T TOUCH OUR PRODUCT" by RVIA and so far, the federal government and all 50 states have not moved to include RV's in the manufactured home category...…

It's sort of like saying, "All apples will be inspected for compliance" and since you own an orange, you'll need to be inspected".....

[flybouy]

I agree with what John posted and with the theory or reality (no data to prove either one) of what Calvin has said. While the regs are what they are here's the the thing as I see it. Your opinion may differ and that's fine.

Here in Maryland where I reside there are state required inspections only when yo sell a vehicle, other states have annual inspections. BUT, and here's the big but. those inspections are based on a list of items that the state mandates. Typically "normal wear safety items" such as brakes, lights, suspension (mostly cars i.e. tie rods, ball joints, steering play, damaged windshields, etc).

I don't personally know of a traffic stop for other than the obvious lights not working or windshield being broken. Where the rest of the "regs" show up is in some attorney's legal clerks computer during a civil suit or a DA's assistants computer when seeking a legal penalty for a fatal MVA.

Don't think for a moment that if someone is involved in a "wrongful death" suit that they wouldn't be looking for that. Regardless of the intent, any attorney would be pleading to a jury that the alteration of "bla, bla, bla" was a factor and the defendant "willing and knowingly" made, or had made these alterations. These arguments would be submitted to a jury that doesn't know an RV from a construction portable office from a mobile home. These jurors would decide culpability and damages. So it boils down to 2 major factors, the jury and how much time and money the attorney is willing to spend on pretrial discovery.

In the case of a civil trial it boils down to the money available (either in insurance or assets) and the how the jury in that particular court typically finds.

In the DA's side, they pretty much have "unlimited funds" in comparison to the citizenry or PD's office and all the time in the world if they want.

Again these are my opinions based on my observations. My observations are these:
When we moved to the county we live in it was still very rural but growing rapidly. Everyone was pretty much called for jury duty in regular fashion. I served several juries over the first 15-18 years until the population was sufficient for a larger jury pool. During the late 1990's I had the "privilege" of serving on the Fed Grand Jury in Baltimore twice, each time was an 18 month stint which required 1 8 hr. day per week. I think I witnessed ham sandwiches and small dogs get indited.

These are my experiences, yours may be very different.

[Jerry S]

Jeez, I built my own airplane and certify it legal and safe to fly.

The way I see it it's mainly a result of our society being over litigious and the accepted idea that someone must "pay" for your loss (either real or imagined). Combine that with an overzealous government that wants to regulate everything and doesn't understand how most of it works.

Don't get me wrong, if someone (individual or company) does undo harm then they should be penalized but good gracious the television just bombards use with Lawyer commercials telling us how to get rich. Regulations are necessary but what seems to be missing is the good old common sense.

Wasn't that many years ago that you could go to a welding shop and get a hitch made or a modification to "beef up" a suspension. There were "spring shops" that would re-arch or add a leaf. Those places are disappearing and I miss them. Typically it was owned and operated by a guy that wasn't an MIT engineer, may or may not have been a certified welder, but knew what you needed, could "rig it up" and if it was going to get you into trouble tell you no and refuse to do it. His most valuable skill was the implementation of common sense. They don't teach that at the "trade schools" or certification programs unfortunately. Now everyone must be "certified" and become "technicians or specialists" . That's a great word. I saw a news bit last night on "Certified Pre-Owned Cars" and how most of them are meaningless. By definition, they are certifying that someone bought the car, used it, and now it's for sale again. And people are eating it up.

I'll take a a person that's experienced that's got common sense but that's a rapidly dying breed these days.

JMHO

[CWtheMan]

Jeez, I built my own airplane and certify it legal and safe to fly.

You left out the details.

https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/ultralights/amateur_built/amateur_regs/

[Jerry S]

Nonsense that is not the way it works rebuilding and modding old cars.

Probably because the owner found a certified modifier to approve it.

[jwldmn1]

I had hoped to hear more on this thread about equalization of the 5th wheel to the lifted truck. I too have a lifted truck and would like my 5th wheel to be more level. Without getting into all of the fab work that has caused so much drama on this thread, is there a safe way to lift the 5th wheel a bit? So much weight has shifted to the rear that the front one is super light and it causes the kingpin to bounce the truck around a bit.

**sorry, I have no idea why the one picture is upside down, it wasn’t taken that way but every time I upload it here it does that.

[Jerry S]

Which detail did I leave out? I built my airplane and I am the one that certifies it safe to fly. Yes a inspector looks at it when it is completed but he is not the one that certifies it safe, he could not care less if you take a tin can and make it fly it is up to me to make sure that tin can is safe. I do that by writing a statement in my log book that I certify this aircraft is safe. I have the repairman's certificate and can do all the work on my aircraft. I only bring this up because of the absurdity of saying someone cannot make a change on their vehicle to make it safer, we all know that the trailer manufacturers use the cheapest products they can find from tires to axles to electronics etc..

You left out the details.

https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/ultralights/amateur_built/amateur_regs/

[flybouy]

Which detail did I leave out? I built my airplane and I am the one that certifies it safe to fly. Yes a inspector looks at it when it is completed but he is not the one that certifies it safe, he could not care less if you take a tin can and make it fly it is up to me to make sure that tin can is safe. I do that by writing a statement in my log book that I certify this aircraft is safe. I have the repairman's certificate and can do all the work on my aircraft. I only bring this up because of the absurdity of saying someone cannot make a change on their vehicle to make it safer, we all know that the trailer manufacturers use the cheapest products they can find from tires to axles to electronics etc..

I think you are missing the point. You certified it "safe" and someone who was obviously qualified and certified agreed that it was "safe". Was this "homebuilt" certified to take up passengers or was it classed as "experimental"? Was the aircraft built from a kit, plans, or was it solely your design/build?

I think you are comparing apples to oranges. JMHO

[flybouy]

I had hoped to hear more on this thread about equalization of the 5th wheel to the lifted truck. I too have a lifted truck and would like my 5th wheel to be more level. Without getting into all of the fab work that has caused so much drama on this thread, is there a safe way to lift the 5th wheel a bit? So much weight has shifted to the rear that the front one is super light and it causes the kingpin to bounce the truck around a bit.

**sorry, I have no idea why the one picture is upside down, it wasn’t taken that way but every time I upload it here it does that.

Most likely you second photo was taken with your phone rotated 180 deg. You can open it in most any viewing software, rotate it and save it.

[Tireman9]

Does anyone read their vehicle’s certification label?

There is a list of equipment items in the vehicle certification regulation that can be changed without hindering the intent of vehicle certification without being certified. Tires, wheels, brakes, axles etc.. are on that list. Chassis modifications of any sort are not on that list.

"This vehicle conforms to all applicable US Federal motor vehicle safety standards in effect on the date of manufacturer."

See 49 CFR part 567, vehicle certification/modification.


Yes but owners are not prohibited from modifyiont their RV in the US. They just need to be sure to always go up in component strength.

[Tireman9]

When changing tire size don't forget the distance between the tires in mylti-axle trailers. You might be able to go up but the distance between the tires is reduced by 1" for each 1" in tire OD

[Jerry S]

Just for your information all homebuilt aircraft build by an individual are registered as a Experimental and can take up passengers if you have two seats or more. Also it does not matter if it is built from a kit or plans or my own design. Sorry to the op as this is not a homebuilt aircraft forum but after having built 4 aircraft I do know what I am talking about when it come to building and certifying a homebuilt aircraft. Done

I think you are missing the point. You certified it "safe" and someone who was obviously qualified and certified agreed that it was "safe". Was this "homebuilt" certified to take up passengers or was it classed as "experimental"? Was the aircraft built from a kit, plans, or was it solely your design/build?

I think you are comparing apples to oranges. JMHO

[CWtheMan]

When changing tire size don't forget the distance between the tires in mylti-axle trailers. You might be able to go up but the distance between the tires is reduced by 1" for each 1" in tire OD

Why do you suppose this is an industry wide mandate?

Tire Size

To maintain tire safety, purchase new tires that are the same size as the vehicle’s original tires or another size recommended by the manufacturer. Look at the Tire and Loading Information label, or the sidewall of the tire you are replacing to find this information. If you have any doubt about the correct size to choose, consult with the tire dealer.

[flybouy]

SO, we have gone from the OP's question to building hot rods, building airplanes, so how did we miss boat construction? Anyone build a boat that they want to share? As long as we are comparing apples to oranges to tangerines we may as well throw grapefruit in the mix.

[CWtheMan]

I had hoped to hear more on this thread about equalization of the 5th wheel to the lifted truck. I too have a lifted truck and would like my 5th wheel to be more level. Without getting into all of the fab work that has caused so much drama on this thread, is there a safe way to lift the 5th wheel a bit? So much weight has shifted to the rear that the front one is super light and it causes the kingpin to bounce the truck around a bit.

**sorry, I have no idea why the one picture is upside down, it wasn’t taken that way but every time I upload it here it does that.

I changed the name and flipped it. Click on it to enlarge and see new pix name.

27103

[larryflew]

Lets see. 1941 Ford, Nova subframe, chopped top, other than stock size wheels and tires, shaved door handles, tinted glass, converted to 4 whl disc brakes, 454 BBC, 700R4 automatic, and the list goes on. In the opinion of some on here it's illegal. I have too wonder why then a well know old car insurance company has insured it for $60K +

Sounds like a MAJOR problem. GM parts for a Ford that is. Sounds like NASCAR, looks like a Ford but....................

[crowbar]

Now after burning out 3 pairs of glasses, I vote that the most sensible post worth taking home was #14 by Darrel!

[jwldmn1]

Thanks!!! Anyone have thoughts on this?

[JRTJH]

Thanks!!! Anyone have thoughts on this?

If you've read the entire thread, all 7 pages of it, and are asking for "more thoughts on the topics covered ad nauseum" then it must really REALLY be a boring day where you're located !!!!!

[jwldmn1]

If you've read the entire thread, all 7 pages of it, and are asking for "more thoughts on the topics covered ad nauseum" then it must really REALLY be a boring day where you're located !!!!!
No, If you read my previous post you would know that I asked for opinions on lifting my 5th wheel to equalize with the lift on my truck. Someone replied and fixed the picture I posted, but no comment on the actual question.

[notanlines]

Jason, I'm a little confused as to what your question is. If you are under the impression that lifting your RV 2" would shift any weight onto the king pin, you are mistaken. You might find that the front axle on the RV would weigh 30 pounds more, but that's about it.
I would be curious to know what your numbers are on the CAT scale. The little bit your RV rides nose high is certainly not something to worry about.
And maybe expound a little about the king pin tossing your truck around.

[jwldmn1]

Jason, I'm a little confused as to what your question is. If you are under the impression that lifting your RV 2" would shift any weight onto the king pin, you are mistaken. You might find that the front axle on the RV would weigh 30 pounds more, but that's about it.
I would be curious to know what your numbers are on the CAT scale. The little bit your RV rides nose high is certainly not something to worry about.
And maybe expound a little about the king pin tossing your truck around.
Maybe I am mistaken, I don’t know, that’s why I posted the question in the first place. The best way I can describe what it doing to the trailer is to compare it to when I had adjustable hitch too high on my bumper pull. The weight of the camper caused the hitch to bounce around (best way I can describe it) and I turn my truck to “shutter” frontwards and backwards. That is what’s happening now due to there not being enough tongue weight due to the front being so much higher than the back. I’ve never heard of anyone lifting a 5th wheel, and I’m not sure how I’d feel about the safety factor, in just trying to come up with options. I put my generator in the front storage of the camper, but that didn’t help much. BTW I have a 2019 Keystone Sprinter 32FWBH.

[notanlines]

Now I see what you're talking about The shimmy on the front end of your truck is very likely caused by the 4" lift coupled with a pin weight of probably in the 2200 pounds or better. It wouldn't surprise me if your payload has gone well beyond that. The one way we can all give you some guidance is to see the ticket from the CAT scale and the picture of the yellow sticker on the pillar of your truck.

[jwldmn1]

Now I see what you're talking about The shimmy on the front end of your truck is very likely caused by the 4" lift coupled with a pin weight of probably in the 2200 pounds or better. It wouldn't surprise me if your payload has gone well beyond that. The one way we can all give you some guidance is to see the ticket from the CAT scale and the picture of the yellow sticker on the pillar of your truck.
I’m 90% sure it is not an issue of too much tongue weight. And it isn’t the “front end shimmy” it’s the entire truck shifting front/back and/or the kingpin “bouncing” up and down. Honestly the camper doesn’t make the truck squat at all.....maybe an inch? It’s like when you are towing any trailer and your weight is predominantly behind the axles....it causes the front end to be too light and Boyce. The cant to the rear of my setup is causing the same things

[flybouy]

I’m 90% sure it is not an issue of too much tongue weight. And it isn’t the “front end shimmy” it’s the entire truck shifting front/back and/or the kingpin “bouncing” up and down. Honestly the camper doesn’t make the truck squat at all.....maybe an inch? It’s like when you are towing any trailer and your weight is predominantly behind the axles....it causes the front end to be too light and Boyce. The cant to the rear of my setup is causing the same things

Are you describing "chucking"? More noticeable transitioning bridges? In my opinion lifted trucks, especially on "fat" off road tires don't make good tow vehicles. Changing the geometry of the suspension and large aggressive tread tires add to instability. You can raise the trailer to match the truck and then you have both truck and trailer with a higher center of gravity. JMHO

[lunge motorsport]

Again Calvin…


Read the ENTIRE section…most importantly “Purpose” and “Intent”, and then explain to me how I am taking any of this out of context. Your posts show that “you specifically” are taking regulations out of context.


The rules about regs are simple. Read all that apply and then apply all of the regs using purpose and intent as the guidelines. If they don’t apply, it doesn’t matter how YOU spin it, it doesn’t matter.


Now stop telling people who want to upgrade wheels and tires or raise the ride height of their rigs that they need to get Federal certifications to perform end user mods. Not once did the OP, nor I for that matter, indicate that the reason for the mods were to increase GVWR. Not once did anyone say that they wanted to reclassify their rig to a higher GVWR.



I, as an end user of my trailer, are under no obligation nor am I required to obtain, any Federal certifications, welding or otherwise, to modify my trailer. Unless, and here is where I bring it home Calvin, I want to recertify it at a higher GVWR. Period!


For Chrissakes!:banghead:

[hornet28]

Sounds like a MAJOR problem. GM parts for a Ford that is. Sounds like NASCAR, looks like a Ford but....................

A major problem doesn't reach 99K mi. Besides Henry built them with GM motors in mind that's why they fit better than Fords.:lol::yes:

[sourdough]

Are you describing "chucking"? More noticeable transitioning bridges? In my opinion lifted trucks, especially on "fat" off road tires don't make good tow vehicles. Changing the geometry of the suspension and large aggressive tread tires add to instability. You can raise the trailer to match the truck and then you have both truck and trailer with a higher center of gravity. JMHO


I think Marshall has hit the nail on the head. Lifted trucks, lifted RVs are just unstable. You can't keep raising the center of gravity, and all the suspension components, then apply large amounts of weight to them, the laws of physics when in motion etc. and think all is going to "feel right"....it won't, and don't. Nor is it safe. Lifted trucks and large RVs are a nemesis.

[traynoral]

I changed the name and flipped it. Click on it to enlarge and see new pix name.

27103

I had a trailer place put 2 inch steel blocks between my axles and my leaf springs. That made a huge difference and I have at least 5,000 miles on that with no issues.

[traynoral]

Again Calvin…


Read the ENTIRE section…most importantly “Purpose” and “Intent”, and then explain to me how I am taking any of this out of context. Your posts show that “you specifically” are taking regulations out of context.


The rules about regs are simple. Read all that apply and then apply all of the regs using purpose and intent as the guidelines. If they don’t apply, it doesn’t matter how YOU spin it, it doesn’t matter.


Now stop telling people who want to upgrade wheels and tires or raise the ride height of their rigs that they need to get Federal certifications to perform end user mods. Not once did the OP, nor I for that matter, indicate that the reason for the mods were to increase GVWR. Not once did anyone say that they wanted to reclassify their rig to a higher GVWR.



I, as an end user of my trailer, are under no obligation nor am I required to obtain, any Federal certifications, welding or otherwise, to modify my trailer. Unless, and here is where I bring it home Calvin, I want to recertify it at a higher GVWR. Period!


For Chrissakes!:banghead:

Yes, correct. I am not trying to increase GVWR or anything like that. I just want the trailer to ride a little more level and have tires on there that are not so close to their max load riding on them.

[traynoral]

So it is officially done. I upgraded from 225/75/R15 to 235/80/R16 Goodyear Endurance Tires on 16 inch steel wheels. See before and after pictures below. I have not driven with them yet but will post as soon as I do.

[CWtheMan]

I, as an end user of my trailer, are under no obligation nor am I required to obtain, any Federal certifications, welding or otherwise, to modify my trailer. Unless, and here is where I bring it home, I want to recertify it at a higher GVWR. Period!


For Chrissakes!:banghead:

That is mostly true, as long as you don't violate safety standards.

Basic, allowable modifications, are defined in the vehicle certification regulation.

Precedents cannot be overlooked because they form the basis for all future actions. It's one of the reasons I referenced the "Vehicle In Use Inspection Standards" regulation. It's not binding unless it's applied. However, it provides minimum compliance actions once applied.

A simple example: A consumer is replacing all their tires on an RV trailer. The OE size depicted on the vehicle certification label is ST225/75R15 and the vehicle manufacturer's recommended cold inflation pressure for all of those tires is certified at 65 PSI which sets the minimum load capacity for any subsequent/replacement tires. The consumer want's a little more load capacity reserves from the replacement tires and has higher load capacity tires installed as replacements. IF the replacement tires have a designated size of ST225/75R15 and will provide an equal or greater load capacity than the OE tires, there is zero size upgrade. Just tires of the same basic size as the OE tires with a little more load capacity. Load Range is not part of a tire's designated size.

A reader of government regulations must first determine who the regulations are addressing. For instance, the FMVSS (standards) are mandatory minimum compliance standards the vehicle manufacturer MUST comply with.

One of the most widely misunderstood FMVSS standard is about tire load capacity. The standard says tires fitted to RV trailer axles must provide a load capacity equal to vehicle certified GAWR (s). That statement is not directed at the consumer. It's sets the starting point for vehicle manufacturers selection for tires they deem appropriate for that vehicle. Once they select and fit the OE designated tire size and recommended cold inflation pressures they become the minimum standard for that vehicle. That information is then placed on the vehicle certification label.

[Tireman9]

So it is officially done. I upgraded from 225/75/R15 to 235/80/R16 Goodyear Endurance Tires on 16 inch steel wheels. See before and after pictures below. I have not driven with them yet but will post as soon as I do.




It might help some to become more educated if you could post the full information (Size, Load Range, Tire load capacity, plus GAWR and inflation level as seen on your certification label) So we can see the increase in reserve Load you gained by applying tires the RV company should have selected originally.

[traynoral]

It might help some to become more educated if you could post the full information (Size, Load Range, Tire load capacity, plus GAWR and inflation level as seen on your certification label) So we can see the increase in reserve Load you gained by applying tires the RV company should have selected originally.

Absolutely. Old tires were e rated 10 Ply with a weight capacity of 2,860. New tires are also 10 Ply e rated and have a weight capacity of 3,420 lbs. Wheels are 16 steel dexstar with a weight capacity of 3,050 My fifth wheel has dual 5,200 lb axles and has a gross vehicle weight rating of 11,500 lbs.

[Tireman9]

That is mostly true, as long as you don't violate safety standards.

Basic, allowable modifications, are defined in the vehicle certification regulation.

Precedents cannot be overlooked because they form the basis for all future actions. It's one of the reasons I referenced the "Vehicle In Use Inspection Standards" regulation. It's not binding unless it's applied. However, it provides minimum compliance actions once applied.

A simple example: A consumer is replacing all their tires on an RV trailer. The OE size depicted on the vehicle certification label is ST225/75R15 and the vehicle manufacturer's recommended cold inflation pressure for all of those tires is certified at 65 PSI which sets the minimum load capacity for any subsequent/replacement tires. The consumer want's a little more load capacity reserves from the replacement tires and has higher load capacity tires installed as replacements. IF the replacement tires have a designated size of ST225/75R15 and will provide an equal or greater load capacity than the OE tires, there is zero size upgrade. Just tires of the same basic size as the OE tires with a little more load capacity. Load Range is not part of a tire's designated size.

A reader of government regulations must first determine who the regulations are addressing. For instance, the FMVSS (standards) are mandatory minimum compliance standards the vehicle manufacturer MUST comply with.

One of the most widely misunderstood FMVSS standard is about tire load capacity. The standard says tires fitted to RV trailer axles must provide a load capacity equal to vehicle certified GAWR (s). That statement is not directed at the consumer. It's sets the starting point for vehicle manufacturers selection for tires they deem appropriate for that vehicle. Once they select and fit the OE designated tire size and recommended cold inflation pressures they become the minimum standard for that vehicle. That information is then placed on the vehicle certification label.


Safety standards are one sided. Stating a MINIMUM load capacity or a MAXIMUM level of loading.


For tires it is a MINIMUM load capacity that should be meet or exceeded. For something like a ladder that says "MAXIMUM allowable load of 250# means there should be no greater load applied.
I have never heard of any Safety standard that prevented doing something that was more safe than the requirement. If there is such can you provide the reference.

[CWtheMan]

Safety standards are one sided. Stating a MINIMUM load capacity or a MAXIMUM level of loading.


For tires it is a MINIMUM load capacity that should be meet or exceeded. For something like a ladder that says "MAXIMUM allowable load of 250# means there should be no greater load applied.
I have never heard of any Safety standard that prevented doing something that was more safe than the requirement. If there is such can you provide the reference.

You seem to be baiting. What is a standard? For original equipment tires the vehicle manufacturer set a minimum standard. Why, you might ask? Because the selection standard told the vehicle manufacturer how low they could go and to insure the OE tires are appropriate for that fitment. NHTSA mandated that standard with this quote; "Tire Size, To maintain tire safety, purchase new tires that are the same size as the vehicle’s original tires or another size
recommended by the manufacturer. Look at the Tire and Loading Information label, or the sidewall of the tire you are replacing to find this information. If you have any doubt about the correct size to choose, consult with the tire
dealer."

You and I both know that "tire size" is officially "designated tire size" and the FMVSS states it that way in 571.110 & 571.120.

[Tireman9]

Absolutely. Old tires were e rated 10 Ply with a weight capacity of 2,860. New tires are also 10 Ply e rated and have a weight capacity of 3,420 lbs. Wheels are 16 steel dexstar with a weight capacity of 3,050 My fifth wheel has dual 5,200 lb axles and has a gross vehicle weight rating of 11,500 lbs.






Thanks. The "Reserve Load" I would like to calculate is


GAWR as stated on vehicle Tire Placard (AKA Certification label




(tire load capacity at placard inflation) - (GAWR) = Reserve Load


The Reserve Load is often stated as the absolute number of pounds but sometimes a percentage is more meaningful when looking at a variety of different vehicles.



Grose vehicle rating is not simply GAWR x 2

[Tireman9]

You seem to be baiting. What is a standard? For original equipment tires the vehicle manufacturer set a minimum standard. Why, you might ask? Because the selection standard told the vehicle manufacturer how low they could go and to insure the OE tires are appropriate for that fitment. NHTSA mandated that standard with this quote; "Tire Size, To maintain tire safety, purchase new tires that are the same size as the vehicle’s original tires or another size
recommended by the manufacturer. Look at the Tire and Loading Information label, or the sidewall of the tire you are replacing to find this information. If you have any doubt about the correct size to choose, consult with the tire
dealer."

You and I both know that "tire size" is officially "designated tire size" and the FMVSS states it that way in 571.110 & 571.120.




Sorry, no "baiting" intended. I am interested in learning Reserve Load on various RV trailers as I have found numbers for vehicle Reserve Load from a negative 2% to as high as +40% on some motor vehicles. RV trailers tend to run below 10% assuming the GAWR has not been exceeded AND that the tire is fully inflated to Placard. But we both know that in the real world a majority of thousands of RVs that have been weighed have discovered one or more tire and/or axle is in overload.


RE the -2% yes I filed a complaint with NHTSA on that one.

[CWtheMan]

Sorry, no "baiting" intended. I am interested in learning Reserve Load on various RV trailers as I have found numbers for vehicle Reserve Load from a negative 2% to as high as +40% on some motor vehicles. RV trailers tend to run below 10% assuming the GAWR has not been exceeded AND that the tire is fully inflated to Placard. But we both know that in the real world a majority of thousands of RVs that have been weighed have discovered one or more tire and/or axle is in overload.


RE the -2% yes I filed a complaint with NHTSA on that one.

Over the years I've attended at least 3 major RV shows per year. I take pictures and discus specifications with dealers and sales people.

Here are a couple of examples of just how far trailer manufacturers will push the minimums with tires.

27851

27852

[wiredgeorge]

:horse:

Geesh... Does anyone have ANYTHING to do out there in this ol' country? He made his rim/tire swap and all looks good for him and I think I am the only one to notice. Don't recall seeing a thread that has been so thoroughly hijacked! :whistling:

[notanlines]

George, I usually buy into what you're saying (odd as that may sound), and this time I'd like to double up on the comment. CW and Tireman, please take this repeated discussion to the PM section. Normal folks can't begin to even scratch the surface of the information given. We all know that tires were y'all's lives. But enough is enough, please. CW has made every effort over the last many weeks to introduce other subjects. Tireman, surely you know about something else other than tires.....
I don't want this to sound as a personal attack by any means. I can personally attack Coors Light beer drinkers instead. Just let this thing go, please.

[sourdough]

George, I usually buy into what you're saying (odd as that may sound), and this time I'd like to double up on the comment. CW and Tireman, please take this repeated discussion to the PM section. Normal folks can't begin to even scratch the surface of the information given. We all know that tires were y'all's lives. But enough is enough, please. CW has made every effort over the last many weeks to introduce other subjects. Tireman, surely you know about something else other than tires.....
I don't want this to sound as a personal attack by any means. I can personally attack Coors Light beer drinkers instead. Just let this thing go, please.


Whaaat!!! Jim, JIM...PLEASE say it ain't so!! Attack Coors Light drinkers?? No, no. Do you not remember that Mark Harmon, head of NCIS, promotes Coors???? Careful...:lol::lol:

But, yes, trying to push the discussion into the minutia when no one really cares I doubt is helping much. Cal has done his best to open up other areas of interest which I've found very interesting and beneficial.

Not pushing or taking sides but we've gone thru the Tireman vs CW dialogue before, and, back then, it reached the same point. If one has refuting evidence of something stated or posted (FMVSS) then by all means post those facts. If not, .......