F250 6.7 Diesel and Cougar 303RLS

[CANINE]

To the experts........am I figuring this correctly?

2012 F250 Crew Cab Lariat 6.7 short box
Steer Axle = 5000 (scale) Door shows 5200
Drive Axle = 3660 (scale) Door shows 6100
Gross Weight = 8660 GVWR 10,000
Curb Weight = 6787

2015 Cougar 303RLS High Country
Dry = 9735
Payload = 2365
GVWP = 12,100

Truck rated for 5th Wheel at 15,900.

Should be ok............correct.

My head is spinning on this, maybe I've read too many forums.

Thanks in advance

vic

[xrated]

To the experts........am I figuring this correctly?

2012 F250 Crew Cab Lariat 6.7 short box
Steer Axle = 5000 (scale) Door shows 5200
Drive Axle = 3660 (scale) Door shows 6100
Gross Weight = 8660 GVWR 10,000
Curb Weight = 6787

2015 Cougar 303RLS High Country
Dry = 9735
Payload = 2365
GVWP = 12,100

Truck rated for 5th Wheel at 15,900.

Should be ok............correct.

My head is spinning on this, maybe I've read too many forums.

Thanks in advance

vic

If your scale weights are correct and your truck weighs 8660, when you subtract that number from the GVWR of the truck, you are left with 1340 lbs for the payload number that you have available. The empty weight of the trailer is 9735...and probably in the real world, a bit more than that. Using that number and multiplying it times 20% will put the pin weight at 1950 lb. That is 600 lbs over your payload right there.....without the 5ver hitch weight being added in, passengers, anything and everything else you put in/on the truck. You will be grossly overloaded ......unless I am totally missing something here, but I am assuming that your truck weight is just the truck only, as the rear axle weight is way too low to have a 5ver hooked up to it.

[Logan X]

What Xrated said is correct. It looks like you will be over your trucks payload capacity due to the fifth wheel pin weight.

Typically 3/4 ton trucks, especially diesels (because the Diesel engine weighs about 1000 pounds more than a gas engine), can’t really handle a fifth wheel. This is because of the 10000 pound gross vehicle weight rating and the typically heavy pin weight sitting in the bed of the truck.

[mtofell]

Two numbers to keep in mind - what can the truck pull? (this is usually called "max towing"), what can the truck carry? (this is usually payload). Your truck can pull a house but can't carry much because, as others stated, the diesel engine eats up a bunch of your payload because it's heavy.

Ironically, the highest payload F250 would be a stripped 4X2 because every option adds weight and takes away from available payload.

I hesitate to even open this Pandora's box but, what the hell..... your axle weight ratings combined total well above the GVWR that you are calculating your payload from. The internet is FULL of arguments about legality and whether it's okay to forget GVWR (payload you are thinking of) and just abide by axle limits. I lean more towards just going by the axle limits (which includes tires, brakes, etc.) but it's up to you.

[Roscommon48]

forget the math...your truck is fine. You'll get a million responses but it'll work for you.

[JRTJH]

I "sort of reluctantly" agree with Matt's "go with the axle ratings and ignore the payload rating" for relatively new trucks. But, as "anything mechanical" ages, it also wears and the "breaking point of new steel, new hydraulic lines, new shocks, and other parts" decreases. So, what was "rated at 6100 pounds" when new, in 7 or 8 years of wear, 100,000 miles of wear, 7 winters of salt and 7 summers of wet/rust, will take their toll on the "overall strength before something breaks"...

So, a new truck might have a RAWR of 6100 pounds while that same truck after 7 or 8 years of use/abuse/careful care (we all treat our trucks differently) may not have that same "capacity before damage or failure"...

The OP's truck is already 8 model years old. Condition is honestly "unknown by any of us" so at best, going by the factory ratings may be "a far stretch for safety" or it may be that his truck has brand new axles under it ??? We just don't know....

The "scale weight" of his F250 is 8660. With a GVW of 10,000 pounds, that only leaves 1340 pounds of payload for all passengers, cargo, added equipment, fifth wheel hitch AND pin weight. The empty pin weight is about 600 pounds heavier than the maximum cargo capacity. THAT'S FOR A NEW TRUCK.... The actual mechanical condition of his truck might (or might not) meet those requirements....

I've got a 2015 F250 diesel with the same engine. My payload is nearly 2200 pounds and I tow a 30' Cougar XLite fifth wheel. The "advertised weight of my trailer is about 2500 pounds less than his and the advertised empty pin weight is nearly 700 pounds less than his. I have to "juggle/watch closely/leave things at home" nearly every trip. If my trailer was as heavy as his, I couldn't tow it with my truck and keep it "under the GVWR and payload limits. My truck would have ABSOLUTELY NO ISSUE PULLING his trailer weight, it's CARRYING the weight that's the issue.

Could I ignore the GVW rating and tow anyway? Yes, as long as I didn't exceed the axle ratings... However, I'm retired, financially secure with no desire to return to work to pay for taking chances, so for me, I'm not willing to jeopardize all that I've worked for to ignore the instructions in the Ford Owner's Manual and "risk it anyway"...

Others may not feel this way, that's OK, but I wouldn't suggest the OP tow his truck over the recommended ratings without fully understanding the potential risks involved "IF" something should happen "AND" he/his insurance company are sued in civil court...

[mtofell]

The "scale weight" of his F250 is 8660. With a GVW of 10,000 pounds, that only leaves 1340 pounds of payload for all passengers, cargo, added equipment, fifth wheel hitch AND pin weight.

I kind of missed this with my initial response - 8660# is crazy heavy for that truck without a bunch of stuff in it. I'd expect it closer to 7700# (which would then leave 2300# of payload before hitting the 10K GVWR). OP - what is accounted for in this weight?

My 2500 weighs right at 7000# (gasser) and with the hitch (225#) plus people (500#) and a few things in the bed (200#) I basically have 2100# in wet (loaded) 5th wheel pin to set into the hitch and stay under my 10K. My 5th weighs around 11,000# loaded and puts right at 20% on the pin.... so 2200# puts me right at (or a couple pieces of firewood over) my GVWR. My tires are rated at 3600# each and rear axle is listed at 6500# (but is reported to be the EXACT same as the 3500 in that year which is 7000#) so I don't feel I'm overloaded or dangerous.... but am right up against the max I should be carrying. When fully loaded my front axle runs about 4550# and my rear about 5550#. So, this puts we at the 10K GVWR but roughly 1000# under rear axle limit and potentially 1450# under actual rear axle limit (although this is assuming 7000# rear axle - even at 6500# I'm still 950# under. I believe the 6500# stock rating is due to the stock tires being the weak link AND it being a 2500 truck - I've upgraded the tires).

Because I am so close I am absolutely anal about running new-ish good quality tires and making sure they are properly inflated. I just know I don't have a huge amount of cushion. I am just a weekend warrior and don't get out nearly as often as I wish. If I were out more I'd certainly upgrade to a more capable truck. I just don't like using any tool at the upper limits of its ability.

OP - you're asking all the right questions... just keep researching and gathering info.

[notanlines]

At risk of taking this rat race into lap 37, let's assume (there's that word) that "GVW is the curb weight plus the weight of the passengers and cargo." How did the OP get 1900 pounds of passengers and cargo to leave such a small cargo capacity?
I also find it somewhat irresponsible to tell a person to go ahead and take the risks involved in towing while this much overloaded. Not cool...

[xrated]

Two numbers to keep in mind - what can the truck pull? (this is usually called "max towing"), what can the truck carry? (this is usually payload). Your truck can pull a house but can't carry much because, as others stated, the diesel engine eats up a bunch of your payload because it's heavy.

Ironically, the highest payload F250 would be a stripped 4X2 because every option adds weight and takes away from available payload.

I hesitate to even open this Pandora's box but, what the hell..... your axle weight ratings combined total well above the GVWR that you are calculating your payload from. The internet is FULL of arguments about legality and whether it's okay to forget GVWR (payload you are thinking of) and just abide by axle limits. I lean more towards just going by the axle limits (which includes tires, brakes, etc.) but it's up to you.

Combining the Axle Weight Ratings as a basis for the actual payload of the truck hasn't officially been used for years and years...maybe longer. Every single one of the truck manufacturers will clearly state in the truck's owner's manual to NEVER exceed ANY of the listed weight ratings.....GVWR, GCVWR, FAWR, RAWR, Payload or Cargo Carrying Capacity, and the tire load rating capacity. Manufacturers have teams of hundreds and hundreds of engineer type folks whose job is to engineer and come up with fitting all of the parts together that comprise the entire truck. This includes the components that make up the drive train, suspension, brakes, axles, etc, to come up with a number that will safely tow and haul loads based on engineering standards. In the end, they have determined the GVWR, Payload....etc, etc. and clearly state, "Never exceed any of the listed weight rating capacities". Will your truck fall to pieces and turn into a pile of junk if you tow overloaded? I guess depending on how overloaded the truck is, but certainly not a few hundred pounds over would be my guess. But doing that over and over on a continuing basis, in my opinion, is just asking for trouble....especially when you start getting into OMG overloaded. It's obviously up to the individual on how they feel about this, both from a safety and a reliability standpoint....and possibly a legal standpoint also. Myself, I've worked too hard my entire life for the past 50 years to see it all disappear right in front of me and therefore, I'm not willing to take the risk......from all three standpoints.

[xrated]

And just as a bit of information that may help (or stir more controversy), the order of progression as far as overload goes like this.

First in the list of being overloaded is when you reach the payload capacity that is listed on the door post on the driver's side of the truck. And remember, that number was determined as the "payload capacity" on the day the truck was built, i.e. fresh off of the assembly line. Anything and everything that is added to the truck after that time, will cause the payload number to be lower. A toolbox full of tools....a bed cover...a hitch (unless it came from the factory with it installed), spray in bedliner.

Once you have reached the payload capacity, any additional weight added to the truck obviously causes it to be over the Payload number..AND it automatically causes the truck to be over the GVWR.

Next in line in the order of progression is the Axle Weight Ratings...if you keep adding weight to the truck.

Then the last item in the progression is the Tire Load Capacity rating. This assumes that the tires are new and properly inflated to the psi number that is stamped on the sidewall of the tire.

GCVWR is also a factor, but normally, when towing a 5th wheel camping type trailer, you will exceed your payload numbers long before you reach the tow rating of the truck and the GCVWR of the truck.

[rhagfo]

To the experts........am I figuring this correctly?

2012 F250 Crew Cab Lariat 6.7 short box
Steer Axle = 5000 (scale) Door shows 5200
Drive Axle = 3660 (scale) Door shows 6100
Gross Weight = 8660 GVWR 10,000
Curb Weight = 6787

2015 Cougar 303RLS High Country
Dry = 9735
Payload = 2365
GVWP = 12,100

Truck rated for 5th Wheel at 15,900.

Should be ok............correct.

My head is spinning on this, maybe I've read too many forums.

Thanks in advance

vic

Well CANINE, has two issues;
#1. with his listed weights he has only 1,340# to the listed GVWR of 10,000#

#2. Which is worse, he only has 2,440# before he exceeds his rear axle rating.

I tend to agree with Mtofell, 8,660# is heavy for a ready to tow weight for a 250/350 SRW.

It would help if Canine posted back what he has in the truck when scaled. Our old 2001 Ram weighed 7,800# ready to tow, that is with about 1,300# to 1,400# of people and stuff in it.

[CANINE]

Thanks for the info....btw, 5er information relates pin at 1705..... I guess I need to really weight the camper and get the 20% from the weight and not rely on documentation. Thanks again.... reading up on this there are so many directions.....

[CANINE]

Will be taking to scale today....to be honest, the weights were taken from like truck weights previously posted where I was reading. You would think similar vehicles would weigh closely similar......Thank you for the response and I'll confirm weights......lesson learned.

[rhagfo]

Will be taking to scale today....to be honest, the weights were taken from like truck weights previously posted where I was reading. You would think similar vehicles would weigh closely similar......Thank you for the response and I'll confirm weights......lesson learned.

The only way to know for sure is weigh. :D

Take the 5er and weigh with hooked up, and then drop and weigh again get individual axle weights for tow vehicle and the total axle weights for the 5er.

Let us know where you are after the scale trip.

[Ken / Claudia]

Just for comparing mine vs his. Mine is 1 ton, long bed, 2013. Unknown if his is a 4x4. Seems like all else is the same.
I scaled it right after the purchase at 8400 lbs, since I sprayed in a bed liner, got bigger tires, a rubber bed mat and soft bed cover. Last week it scaled at 8600 lbs. Both times full of fuel and only me inside.
The payload sticker shows 3178 lbs.

[flybouy]

" I am just a weekend warrior and don't get out nearly as often as I wish. If I were out more I'd certainly upgrade to a more capable truck. "

These type statements confuse and amuse me. Can anyone tell me how a hunk of iron setting on 4 rubber pads of road contact can tell that you " don't intend to drive more often"? Or how does it know you are only driving less than X amount of miles" I now I'm not the smartest guy around but I've never owned any vehicle with that type of intuition.

[JRTJH]

I had a 2013 F250 XLT gas truck before this diesel. If I remember correctly, the payload was either 3486 or 3684 ??? Anyway, somewhere slightly over 3400 pounds. We bought the current truck new, from a dealer in Detroit, "sight unseen" and I'd suspected we'd have "close to the same payload, minus about 400 pounds for the diesel.... That would have put it somewhere "around 3000 pound payload". That's "workable for our trailer"...

I was "super surprised and disappointed" to find the paltry payload sticker at about 800 pounds less than expected. I suppose there's a "significant difference between the "weight" of a supercab XLT and a crew cab Lariat...

So, depending on the "packages included", optional equipment and aftermarket additions, it's entirely feasible that the OP's truck weight comes in close to 8500-8700 pounds. We'd be there with a "bed tool box with 300-400 pounds of tools/junk.

[Logan X]

Not to stir up controversy, but anyone telling you to ignore any of the weight rating numbers is doing you a disservice. Anyone who makes statements like “you’ll be fine” or “your truck can tow it no problem”, while you are exceeding any weight rating, has never been sued by a greedy lawyer.

If you are in any type of accident, and an someone hires an accident lawyer, what do you think will happen if that lawyer can demonstrate you were overweight.

[rhagfo]

Not to stir up controversy, but anyone telling you to ignore any of the weight rating numbers is doing you a disservice. Anyone who makes statements like “you’ll be fine” or “your truck can tow it no problem”, while you are exceeding any weight rating, has never been sued by a greedy lawyer.

If you are in any type of accident, and an someone hires an accident lawyer, what do you think will happen if that lawyer can demonstrate you were overweight.

I go along with Logan on this, while I have towed well over my TV GVWR in the past, I knew it and was still within axle ratings.
To encourage those new to towing to tow over listed limits can set them up for a bad experience!
If one gets in an accident not their fault by rules of the road, they can still be taken to civil court if it can be showed that they were over weight limits.

[flybouy]

My DW was in a mva about 6 years ago (hit in an intersection). We hired an accident reconstructionist. I met him at the Ford dealership's body shop and helped him (held the dumb end of the tape measure) take the many, many measurements on sight line distances etc. He then "downloaded" the truck's (F150 KR). "black box" contents. Then it was off to the crash site where again I held the "dumb end". At the crash site the DW gave the investigator her story of what happened.

Long intro but with this info we met with him about 2 weeks later. The detail in his report amazed me. The exact time of impact, the speed of her truck and the vehicle that hit her. The exact weight and axle weights as well as outside air Temps and about 100 other measurements. I was waiting for him to tell what she ate that day. He also said all the info was "consistent" with her initial statement.

Point being, God forbid you get into a serious accident running "heavy". Any decent attorney will find out. And any decent attorney will dig into social media and if you have posted somewhere that you're "all good" with operating above the published maximums then you fall into culpability and responsibility because you can't plead ignorance, now you have evidence of knowing and deciding to ignore those operating maximum parameters.

JMHO, YMMV

[mtofell]

Combining the Axle Weight Ratings as a basis for the actual payload of the truck hasn't officially been used for years and years...maybe longer.

I never said otherwise.... I wasn't aware they ever did.

[mtofell]

" I am just a weekend warrior and don't get out nearly as often as I wish. If I were out more I'd certainly upgrade to a more capable truck. "

These type statements confuse and amuse me. Can anyone tell me how a hunk of iron setting on 4 rubber pads of road contact can tell that you " don't intend to drive more often"? Or how does it know you are only driving less than X amount of miles" I now I'm not the smartest guy around but I've never owned any vehicle with that type of intuition.

I assume this is directed at me - if you go through my posts I'm right at my 10,000# GVWR. I said if I towed more I would get a more capable truck meaning so I'd have a larger cushion.

Back in college I had some risk analysis classes and this line of thinking is a well established premise. It goes something like this:

Risk=Impact X Probability / Cost

Probability is directly correlated to the number of times a given event takes place.

Of course, an accident is not a risk we want to play around with but the fact remains that the more times a person tows the risk goes up. This is what ultimately motivates the decisions we all make.

Why don't we all tow popup trailers with DRW trucks? Why don't we all have bank vault doors on the front of our house? Because we are willing to accept the "risk" of using a lesser tool.

[sourdough]

My DW was in a mva about 6 years ago (hit in an intersection). We hired an accident reconstructionist. I met him at the Ford dealership's body shop and helped him (held the dumb end of the tape measure) take the many, many measurements on sight line distances etc. He then "downloaded" the truck's (F150 KR). "black box" contents. Then it was off to the crash site where again I held the "dumb end". At the crash site the DW gave the investigator her story of what happened.

Long intro but with this info we met with him about 2 weeks later. The detail in his report amazed me. The exact time of impact, the speed of her truck and the vehicle that hit her. The exact weight and axle weights as well as outside air Temps and about 100 other measurements. I was waiting for him to tell what she ate that day. He also said all the info was "consistent" with her initial statement.

Point being, God forbid you get into a serious accident running "heavy". Any decent attorney will find out. And any decent attorney will dig into social media and if you have posted somewhere that you're "all good" with operating above the published maximums then you fall into culpability and responsibility because you can't plead ignorance, now you have evidence of knowing and deciding to ignore those operating maximum parameters.

JMHO, YMMV



I wasn't going to comment on this thread because the important points have been made (don't exceed any weight limit) but this post brings up something that needs to be emphasized IMO.

When we tell a new person to towing, maybe never dropped a trailer behind a pickup in their life, that exceeding any/all ratings except either rawr or tire ratings (or any of them) is OK is setting the unknowing, inexperienced new RVer up for a possible catastrophic experience.


If you've towed multiple types and sizes of trailers you know that each of them has an effect on the way the TV operates - definitely not like driving around unloaded. Compound that with the presence of worn, broken or missing equipment and the picture just gets more bleak. But, the above holds true for even a brand new truck towing in an overloaded state. Now, when that person towing that 12,100 lb. trailer behind his 8 year old 10k+ lb. truck encounters something....anything, without a lot of towing experience and recognizing the precautions one should take prior to, or during, a panic situation, what might have been a near miss for an experienced person could very easily turn into catastrophe.

All trucks, trailers, drivers and equipment are not created the same and one needs to err on the side of safety and caution. When counseling someone with unknown experience or equipment it is even more important and given the extent of the information available nowadays to experienced investigators it's just asking for trouble to do it. JMO

[JRTJH]

Addressing the previous two posts, using black box technology to obtain vehicle status and recommending that someone "can ignore the manufacturer's instructions" think about this:

Curt just bought the "better weigh" technology and sells it as a "vehicle/hitch scale" used to visualize tongue weight, payload, vehicle weight, weight distribution and axle loading by using the vehicle's sensors to transmit that data to your "smart phone". https://www.curtmfg.com/part/51701

It shouldn't be a surprise that the same information is stored in the vehicle computer/black box. In fact, the Ford Owner's Manual states that "information stored in the vehicle computer may be obtained and may be shared with some law enforcement and investigative authorities".

Essentially, in this day and age, no longer are you "out there towing on your own and if you skip a step, nobody will ever know"... It's being recorded, in real time, not only to keep the data available, but trust me, if you decide to sue Ford because of a truck issue, they'll have most of that information already in their "VIN specific file, stored in Detroit and readily available to their legal team."...

Remember those "vehicle health reports" that we were sending via cell phone on a monthly basis? I'd suspect that much more than mileage and oil change status was being shared. Now, they don't even need us to send it to them, they can access the computer every time you go into the dealership for an oil change and if you NEVER even drive by the dealership, I'd not be surprised if they (all the auto manufacturers) don't have access to their proprietary data that's stored in your truck. Surely, even if they aren't "spying on you" they will obtain a court order to download your black box data in the event of any legal action.... Not to blame you, of course, but rather to "certify that what you did, wasn't their fault".....

ADDED: And, since most insurance companies offer a discount if a "driver device" is added to the vehicle, you can bet that all the information available to the auto manufacturer is also being monitored by your insurance company... The day of 'big brother is watching' is upon us.

It shocked me when I had my SlingShot in for an oil change that the service manager asked me what it felt like to be driving 97MPH in 4th gear. I look at him with a blank stare, he just replied, on "such and such a date, at such and such a time, you were in 4th gear, 6800 RPM and 97 MPH. Trust me, if Polaris can track that kind of information on a tricycle motorcycle, you know Ford, GM and Fiat also have that capability.

[xrated]

I never said otherwise.... I wasn't aware they ever did.

Your quote...."I lean more towards just going by the axle limits (which includes tires, brakes, etc.) but it's up to you."

And that is why I said what I did.

[JRTJH]

Why did I hear that in Rod Sterling's voice? :D:hide:

I know.... When I was chatting with the Polaris service manager and he made those comments, I had that "deer in the headlights look" and then, later, when talking about it with the service manager at Ford, he just smiled and said, "You can't do much with that truck that we don't know about before you bring it in for service"....

OOPS, so much for claiming I don't know what happened that caused the complaint....

Maybe not from the Twilight Zone, but Big Brother is watching... :hide:

[jsb5717]

Just for clarification, is everyone using the correct numbers for the calcs? Isn't Curb Weight the weight of the truck without cargo or passengers? At 6787 lbs Curb Weight that gives the OP a little more head room to work with depending on how he loads the truck.

[mtofell]

Your quote...."I lean more towards just going by the axle limits (which includes tires, brakes, etc.) but it's up to you."

And that is why I said what I did.

That's totally different from the quote of yours that I was replying to - that being that I said GVWR (and payload) is calculated by adding FAWR and RAWR. I know that's not the case and didn't say or imply it in anything I wrote.

The quote above is just my opinion on the matter and has nothing to do with how ratings are calculated.

[JRTJH]

Just for clarification, is everyone using the correct numbers for the calcs? Isn't Curb Weight the weight of the truck without cargo or passengers? At 6787 lbs Curb Weight that gives the OP a little more head room to work with depending on how he loads the truck.

Curb weight is "irrelevant" when it comes to a truck "as it sits in the owner's garage"... That's like using "shipping weight" for an RV. Once the dealership fills the propane tanks and adds a battery, installs the spare tire and rack, the "shipping weight" will never be relevant...

If, on the other hand, you're saying "curb weight" can be used in the same connotation as "vehicle weight", then they should be the same... But, to use the "curb weight" of 6787 pounds with scaled axle weights of 5000 and 3700, well something doesn't add up there....

The OP did post that his "scaled figures" were gleaned from another post and not from his own vehicle, so we're really "making WAGS or SWAGS" rather than dealing with reality...

[flybouy]

I assume this is directed at me - if you go through my posts I'm right at my 10,000# GVWR. I said if I towed more I would get a more capable truck meaning so I'd have a larger cushion.

Back in college I had some risk analysis classes and this line of thinking is a well established premise. It goes something like this:

Risk=Impact X Probability / Cost

Probability is directly correlated to the number of times a given event takes place.

Of course, an accident is not a risk we want to play around with but the fact remains that the more times a person tows the risk goes up. This is what ultimately motivates the decisions we all make.

Why don't we all tow popup trailers with DRW trucks? Why don't we all have bank vault doors on the front of our house? Because we are willing to accept the "risk" of using a lesser tool.

Not wanting to be argumentative just wanting to understand this. I stated that the quote was the type of statement. If your clarification for that is your formula then you are placing zero as your denominator (assuming no cost to buy another truck) then the risk equals zero. At least that's what I was taught in grade school , that any number multiplied by zero = zero and any number divide by, or into zero = zero. It's been over 5 decades since I was in grade school but I don't think the "new math" changed that.

[mtofell]

Not wanting to be argumentative just wanting to understand this. I stated that the quote was the type of statement. If your clarification for that is your formula then you are placing zero as your denominator (assuming no cost to buy another truck) then the risk equals zero. At least that's what I was taught in grade school , that any number multiplied by zero = zero and any number divide by, or into zero = zero. It's been over 5 decades since I was in grade school but I don't think the "new math" changed that.

I guess you've just disproved a well known and used theory taught and used throughout the world. Perhaps, someone should alert the universities.

[sourdough]

Curb weight is "irrelevant" when it comes to a truck "as it sits in the owner's garage"... That's like using "shipping weight" for an RV. Once the dealership fills the propane tanks and adds a battery, installs the spare tire and rack, the "shipping weight" will never be relevant...

If, on the other hand, you're saying "curb weight" can be used in the same connotation as "vehicle weight", then they should be the same... But, to use the "curb weight" of 6787 pounds with scaled axle weights of 5000 and 3700, well something doesn't add up there....

The OP did post that his "scaled figures" were gleaned from another post and not from his own vehicle, so we're really "making WAGS or SWAGS" rather than dealing with reality...




Yep but he did say he was hitting the scales today so hopefully we can find out what those actuals are. Figure it might be enlightening to all; particularly the OP.

[JRTJH]

Yep but he did say he was hitting the scales today so hopefully we can find out what those actuals are. Figure it might be enlightening to all; particularly the OP.

…………...http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/hand-gestures/thumbs-up-hand-gesture-smiley-emoticon.gif (http://www.sherv.net/)

[flybouy]

I guess you've just disproved a well known and used theory taught and used throughout the world. Perhaps, someone should alert the universities.

The formula is fine, if used for a project say, entering a simple business partnership. I have a BIL who is a Certified Insurance Fraud Investigator. Before getting that cert. he was an actuary at an insurance company for many years. I've seen the actuarial tables and formulas and they made my head spin.

The formula is a tool, if used correctly I'm sure it works. If I see someone use a flat blade screwdriver as a cold chisel I try to explain why it's not the proper tool for the application.

[sourdough]

I assume this is directed at me - if you go through my posts I'm right at my 10,000# GVWR. I said if I towed more I would get a more capable truck meaning so I'd have a larger cushion.

Back in college I had some risk analysis classes and this line of thinking is a well established premise. It goes something like this:

Risk=Impact X Probability / Cost

Probability is directly correlated to the number of times a given event takes place.

Of course, an accident is not a risk we want to play around with but the fact remains that the more times a person tows the risk goes up. This is what ultimately motivates the decisions we all make.

Why don't we all tow popup trailers with DRW trucks? Why don't we all have bank vault doors on the front of our house? Because we are willing to accept the "risk" of using a lesser tool.



Wouldn't we call that "risk analysis" equation "gambling"? Obviously a useful tool for many things but for towing overweight it wouldn't seem to apply. Sort of like putting 2500 lb. rated tires under a 5k load. You can do that analysis and it might say it's OK....for a little bit, but it is going to fail - you just don't know when. When it does, and what ever damage comes from it, could have been avoided. But that goes with any and all gambling. Just a different view of it I guess.

[Ken / Claudia]

I agree with Danny if we compare doing something wrong and hope we do not get caught or found at fault that is gambling, I do that at a casino not on the public roadways. I have used the idea of Risk vs Impact and Cost throughout my police officer job as all cops do who plan a mission and I suppose many do who plan a military mission. We would not use that idea when we know we are doing something wrong or illegal. It would prevent the mission as too much Risk, Impact and Cost.

[Roscommon48]

All of the above are going way over what you need to know. You are fine, use your truck and life goes on. You have insurance and they will cover you.


Enjoy the travels.

[flybouy]

I enjoy the "broad brush" statements that imply EVERYONE ELSE that has commented is wrong, just ignore the facts, plod on and if you screw up someone else will pay for it. Sorry but I'm not that cavalier nor naiveté.

[Ken / Claudia]

I have challenged some on here to call their agent. Give them all the true weight ratings on the truck and the RV. If their over by any of the ratings will they still be covered. None that I asked have replied that they did and what the answer was.
I look at that answer like this, several times a year I stop and cite a person without a drivers license and after I hand them a ticket these folks ask me, "Can I just drive home?" Guess what my answer must be you choose what you would do.
#1 Yes, go ahead and break the law. I know your doing it. I will not make any attempt to stop you. I now have personal and dept. liability for your actions and am willing to be named in any law suit if you harm anyone.
#2 No.

[xrated]

All of the above are going way over what you need to know. You are fine, use your truck and life goes on. You have insurance and they will cover you.


Enjoy the travels.

Until it doesn't! :banghead:

[mtofell]

I find it amusing that the folks that throw caution to the wind don't post their RV and TV in a signature.

I'm not really throwing, "caution to the wind" but I'll bite anyways.... I've never filled out my profile completely because I don't spend much time here compared to other message boards I frequent. <deleted>... It kind of takes away from the experience but such as life.

Truck - 2014 Ram 2500 6.4 Hemi 4X4, Payload on the DOOR STICKER 3070#

5th Wheel - 2016 Keystone 308BHDS, dry sticker weight 9040# (don't worry, I've read ALL the comments and I know this doesn't matter).

Feel free to pass along this info to law enforcement so I can be arrested.:bow::bow:

[Ken / Claudia]

I gotta keep it real, it's not an arresting offense it's a violation. Law Enforcement is the least of your worries IF your found at fault in any major crash. It's the lawyers that can and will attempt to take your home not cops.
I have related to my cases on here and knew of many more. Cops do the crash investigation, you may get a ticket or not.
Months or years later cops get a subpoena to testify in a civil hearing and or trail, I have as most long time traffic cops. That's when you hear terms like Careless, Reckless, Knowingly unlawful etc etc. and they point at you when saying it.
In this country even when you do the right things lawfully, but someone feels you owe them and you own a house, have assets or are just plain wealthy. Some want to take that away. Limit your liability on public roads by following the laws, knowing the laws and not following them is gambling.

[xrated]

I'm not really throwing, "caution to the wind" but I'll bite anyways.... I've never filled out my profile completely because I don't spend much time here compared to other message boards I frequent. <deleted>... It kind of takes away from the experience but such as life.

Truck - 2014 Ram 2500 6.4 Hemi 4X4, Payload on the DOOR STICKER 3070#

5th Wheel - 2016 Keystone 308BHDS, dry sticker weight 9040# (don't worry, I've read ALL the comments and I know this doesn't matter).

Feel free to pass along this info to law enforcement so I can be arrested.:bow::bow:

With a trailer GVWR of 10,645 and the "normal" stuff that you put in the truck also....hitch, passengers, etc. you are more than likely not over the payload capacity of the truck....unless you've done other things like adding really heavy stuff to the truck. This whole discussion is and has been about the O.P.'s setup which IS CLEARLY going to be overloaded with his truck/trailer combo. If yours isn't, then no problems.

[wiredgeorge]

Wow. The OP was told right from the get go that he doesn't have enough truck for the 5ver. Some folks have replied to this thread about 23 times and have mentioned an angry mob of LEOs, insurance agents and lawyers. Seems the intensity of reaction to a common issue indicates a surplus of available time to folks who are confined. My sense is that after reading all this stuff, the OP is going to do what the OP wants and since he already owns the truck and 5ver, doubt he will fold and buy either a new truck or camper and just wing it. Anyway, I have to get into the shop as I am swamped with business and need to work on a Saturday.... yuck.

[CANINE]

I feel like I'm feeding sharks......although great thought, opinions, and comments.

My daddy always told me there are three (3) types of people in this world.

Those that can count and those that couldn't.

:)

Scale weights from this morning:
Steer: 4960
Drive: 3560
Gross: 8520

May I add....I do have airbags and super glide hitch......6.7 diesel and very clean no issue F250. I'll post pictures later.

Thanks for all the inquizative insight.

Vic

[rhagfo]

Can’t wait for OP to come back with scale weights! First doubt that as a weekend traveler he will be at the 12,100# GVWR of the 5er. I also believe his TV will come in at about 7,800# giving room for 2,200# of pin before exceeding the 10,000# GVWR.
On Edit: well did’t see scale weights before I started my reply. Looks like OP needs to make a decision as to towing slightly over GVWR.

[flybouy]

Wow. The OP was told right from the get go that he doesn't have enough truck for the 5ver. Some folks have replied to this thread about 23 times and have mentioned an angry mob of LEOs, insurance agents and lawyers. Seems the intensity of reaction to a common issue indicates a surplus of available time to folks who are confined. My sense is that after reading all this stuff, the OP is going to do what the OP wants and since he already owns the truck and 5ver, doubt he will fold and buy either a new truck or camper and just wing it. Anyway, I have to get into the shop as I am swamped with business and need to work on a Saturday.... yuck.

I think you are missing the reasoning for many of the responses. In my opinion, telling a "newbie" that towing with their overloaded truck (from their own numbers) is akin to telling a newly licensed driver to "don't worry about the laws and warnings, start calling your friends on the drive home!". The "new to towing" operator by definition has no experience. They don't know how it's supposed to react nor how to compensate for an issue that could arise that could be exacerbated by towing beyond capacity or improper load balance.

The comments and experiences on insurance companies, attorneys, and LEOs are accurate reflections of reality and intended to inform the OP of some of the POSSIBLE ramifications of taking the action of knowingly towing above the "published manufacturers maximum limits". The "23 comments by some" I can only address the reasoning behind my comments. I respond to challenging comments with facts when challenger offers none. I will call out someone that "seeks to impress" with erred logic or wildly exaggerated claims that can't be substantiated. There's a section for "fishing stories" they belong in the campfire chatter.

This debate, and the subsequent comments are certainly not new and I doubt they will end with this post. As long as "newbies" join, don't search or look around and post questions then you will get these types of posts. As long as some people misread or "read something into" a post this will happen. So if this taking up too much of your time, or leaves a "yuckie" aftertaste then I can only suggest ignoring them.

These are my opinions and we are all welcome to express our opinions *** long as they are within the "site rules". Enjoy working today and be thankful that you can still make money during these times.

[wiredgeorge]

I understand the topic as it has been hashed out a zillion times. I also believe the OP seems to be fairly lucid and caught the drift and said he was going to a weight scales and get the real numbers. Not sure how the gross weight of the truck plays but shouldn't he be looking at the stated payload on the yellow tire sticker on his door frame? His short bed and guzzied up Lariat model (not sure what cab type, rear axle or if it is a 4x4) but likely he will be at the low end of payload capacity; probably a shade over 3000 lbs. and his camper tongue weight should be a bit under 2500 lbs so depending on how chubby he and his dog are and how much junk (or passengers/tools, etc) seems he may be OK.

Someone might have suggested he drag his camper to the scales and get some real numbers with the camper as well and look at his payload.

And Marshall, I KNOW why you reacted to the fella who told him to ride off into the sunset and possibly overloaded. We get at least one of these type comments every time someone asks about loading. Rather than try and be diplomatic and explain why dumb is dumb, perhaps just saying (once) that you are a... well there is probably some forum rule about completing this sentance.

[flybouy]

Totally agree George, to "fill in the blank" would be a personal attack in my thinking but your thinking is "on track".

[sourdough]

I feel like I'm feeding sharks......although great thought, opinions, and comments.

My daddy always told me there are three (3) types of people in this world.

Those that can count and those that couldn't.

:)

Scale weights from this morning:
Steer: 4960
Drive: 3560
Gross: 8520

May I add....I do have airbags and super glide hitch......6.7 diesel and very clean no issue F250. I'll post pictures later.

Thanks for all the inquizative insight.

Vic


Thanks for getting back Vic. Yes, these conversations can get quite interesting, and sometimes kinda fun given some of the comments and directions they take.:D Hopefully you can take away that there are many folks that take towing, and towing safely, pretty seriously.

Your weights sort of surprise me as they seem pretty heavy for a stock 3/4 ton. My 14 was considerably less but it was gas, not diesel but even then it was still well under what yours runs. Just thought about it and I didn't carry a 5th wheel hitch either.

With the scaled numbers 10k gvw less the 8520 scaled weight only leaves you with 1480 in payload. If your trailer just runs at the unloaded weight only (not possible) the pin would be approx. 1947 lbs. (est. 20% pin) which is well above your available payload. Your situation is exactly why I have a new 1 ton.

Keep in mind that air bags don't help payload at all, just diminish it nor does any kind of hitch. All may seem to just fine....until it's not. I can tell you that it is absolutely NO fun to try to haul a big trailer down with a 3/4 ton. Combine that with the possibility of having to take some sort of evasive action and I think you can see where many of us come from.

Don't worry about "feeding the sharks", ask away with any questions. That "frenzy in the water" can be entertaining at times!:D

[CANINE]

So, will attempt to provide all the info I could obtain and also say thanks to both the informative reply's along with the not so informative.

To summarize:

Truck:
2012 F250 Crew Cab Lariate 6.7 Diesel
Hitch: Model 2700 Pullrite Superglide
Trailer: 2015 303RLS Cougar High Country
Ride Rite Air Bags

Truck Weights:
Steer Axle: 4960
Drive Axle: 3660
Gross: 8520
Truck was fully loaded with Diesel, Hitch in place, DW and Dogs in place, small toolbox, safety gear, ....and today's grocery's.
to add: maybe why it's so heavy is the 5th Wheel Tow Prep Package which includes 1 under-bed-frame crossmember and the Camper package which supposed to have front springs upgrade, rear stabilizer bar, slide-in-camper certification and auxiliary rear springs......this truck seems to be beefed up. Since I did not buy new, I have to rely on given information and visual information. Also, I know the truck is rated to pull 15,200...possibly increase with additional options??

5er Weights:
Dry Weight: 9735 (brochure)
Payload Capacity: 2365 (brochure)
Weight with our full camping loadout: 11,375

So, fully loaded and ready to roll out the truck is at 8520 and the trailer is at 11,375.

I'm pretty sure the axle weights are good and though I'm a little over on the GVWR....I think.

As previously mentioned, thanks for all you insight and input. I hope to contribute in the future and look forward to hauling down the road.

Our intentions are to stay within 3-5 hr drives and mainly camp local for the next 5-7 years.

With the added knowledge we would certainly be looking for a 1 ton at the time we intend to cross country.

Hope everyone is staying safe and have a great evening.

Thanks to those sending private messages.....valuable info and understood.

vic

[CANINE]

Adding Photo's as promised:

1) 2012 F250
2) 2015 Cougar 303RLS
3) Saying buy to old and hello to new

vic

[KRumm]

Scale weights from this morning:
Steer: 4960
Drive: 3560
Gross: 8520

Vic

Not to pour more rain on your parade but do these numbers also account for DW?...

[CANINE]

If I took that factor out of the equation, I'd be a Lot safer.

[travelin texans]

Just FYI!
The air bags nor any other option that wasn't on the truck from the factory do ABSOLUTELY nothing to increase your payload or carrying capacity, if they do anything it's subtract from your available payload due to the weight of those options.
The air bags ONLY use is to level the truck once hitched up, nothing more regardless of advertising or what someone may have told you.
You are now among the ever growing group of folks that are towing overweight, either knowingly or not, so just be aware & be safe. We are living in a RV park with folks coming/going everyday that are very obviously towing grossly over weight so just know you are not the only one on the highway now or in the future, just be willing to accept any adverse consequences.

[CANINE]

Understand on the Air Bags. Wonder about Tow Package and Camping package from the factory helps? If not why would there be options for those?

[rhagfo]

So, will attempt to provide all the info I could obtain and also say thanks to both the informative reply's along with the not so informative.

To summarize:

Truck:
2012 F250 Crew Cab Lariate 6.7 Diesel
Hitch: Model 2700 Pullrite Superglide
Trailer: 2015 303RLS Cougar High Country
Ride Rite Air Bags

Truck Weights:
Steer Axle: 4960
Drive Axle: 3660
Gross: 8520
Truck was fully loaded with Diesel, Hitch in place, DW and Dogs in place, small toolbox, safety gear, ....and today's grocery's.
to add: maybe why it's so heavy is the 5th Wheel Tow Prep Package which includes 1 under-bed-frame crossmember and the Camper package which supposed to have front springs upgrade, rear stabilizer bar, slide-in-camper certification and auxiliary rear springs......this truck seems to be beefed up. Since I did not buy new, I have to rely on given information and visual information. Also, I know the truck is rated to pull 15,200...possibly increase with additional options??

5er Weights:
Dry Weight: 9735 (brochure)
Payload Capacity: 2365 (brochure)
Weight with our full camping loadout: 11,375

So, fully loaded and ready to roll out the truck is at 8520 and the trailer is at 11,375.

I'm pretty sure the axle weights are good and though I'm a little over on the GVWR....I think.

As previously mentioned, thanks for all you insight and input. I hope to contribute in the future and look forward to hauling down the road.

Our intentions are to stay within 3-5 hr drives and mainly camp local for the next 5-7 years.

With the added knowledge we would certainly be looking for a 1 ton at the time we intend to cross country.

Hope everyone is staying safe and have a great evening.

Thanks to those sending private messages.....valuable info and understood.

vic

Well until you scale it with the 5er attached all the numbers about pin weight and how far over GVWR you will be.

Right now with a 20% pin you look to be 795# over GVWR.

The rear axle is guessed to carry the entire pin 2,275 + 3,560 = 5,835# so good even on a 6,000# rear axle rating.

In the end you are going to be over the GVWR of the current TV. While I don't condone towing over GVWR, I did it for about seven years with a 2001 Ram 2500 CTD, I was a lot more over than you.
It towed fine, never afraid of getting a ticket for being over weight, BUT the thought of a lawyer coming after me for being in a accident my fault or NOT due to the fact I was 1,700# over GVWR, still within all axles.

The other issue is that you will likely find the towing experience with the new 5er way better than your old TT. You won't notice passing semis, or cross winds, 5er is just far more stable.

I would be looking at stepping up to a newer 350/3500 SRW TV in the not too distant future.

[rhagfo]

Understand on the Air Bags. Wonder about Tow Package and Camping package from the factory helps? If not why would there be options for those?

Question on the bags, did you have them with the TT, or did you add for the 5er?
The other thing to look at is what do you carry in the truck besides you, DW and the dogs? Our current 2016 Ram 3500 Laramie CTD DRW had a payload sticker of 5,411# once my STUFF, me DW small dog (30#), we were down to 4,000# available for pin weight. DW and I are not slim, but also not large.

Don't remember you posting the payload off the yellow sticker on the door pillar.

[+Ruff Rider]

My 15 has a max loaded trailer weight of 16,100 pounds and a gvwr of 23,500. With 355's you can go 32,100

[travelin texans]

Understand on the Air Bags. Wonder about Tow Package and Camping package from the factory helps? If not why would there be options for those?

Anything that came from the factory is accounted for in the yellow sticker on the drivers door, anything you or the dealer added is not.

[CANINE]

Thank you.

[xrated]

My 15 has a max loaded trailer weight of 16,100 pounds and a gvwr of 23,500. With 355's you can go 32,100

Can you please explain exactly what you have and what all of your posted number are in reference to? Your reply just doesn't add up...mostly?

[CANINE]

I just about want to start another thread for my questions but may provide valuable info to others.

How does the Mfg identify Hitch weight and is it the same as pin weight?

The brochure shows Hitch weight at 1705, assuming at the 12,100 GVWR......again, 303RLS Cougar HC...2015.

Thanks in advance.

[flybouy]

I just about want to start another thread for my questions but may provide valuable info to others.

How does the Mfg identify Hitch weight and is it the same as pin weight?

The brochure shows Hitch weight at 1705, assuming at the 12,100 GVWR......again, 303RLS Cougar HC...2015.

Thanks in advance.

Are you referencing trailer manufacturer? Those numbers are based on empty weights which are never seen after the transport driver slams a battery in the battery box. Ignore those numbers, they aren't "realistic".

[rhagfo]

I just about want to start another thread for my questions but may provide valuable info to others.

How does the Mfg identify Hitch weight and is it the same as pin weight?

The brochure shows Hitch weight at 1705, assuming at the 12,100 GVWR......again, 303RLS Cougar HC...2015.

Thanks in advance.

The hitch weight listed is for the 5er at dry weight, it also will just go up as
You load the trailer. A reasonable assumed pin weight is 20% of GVWR of the trailer.

It is time for another ride to the scales with the 5er in tow, 5er loaded for a weekend trip. Loaded get TV front axle, TV rear axle, and trailer axles. Then drop the trailer and weigh the TV again TV front axles and TV rear axle. With those five numbers we can tell total trailer weight and pin weight.

Dry weight is useful only for figuring trailer payload if not listed. Many trailers and 5er have ridiculous low payloads.

Still wondering what the payload sticker is on your truck. This so we can tell how much stuff you are carrying.

[Ken / Claudia]

MFg, my example see trailer below, it is a TT. Keystone listed 560 lbs hitch wt.
I loaded it up for a 3 day camp trip for 2 people and a dog. Fresh water tank, propane tanks full, 2 12v batteries at about 100 lbs. Cargo storage is in the front.
The tongue wt. on the scale was 920 lbs.

[travelin texans]

Hitch weight is generally referring to the weight placed on the receiver hitch from the tongue weight of a TT usually in the 10-12% of the posted GVWR of a particular rv. Depending on the class of receiver the typical hitch weight is generally 10% of the weight rated class if the hitch, ie 3000lb rated = 300lb tongue weight.
Pin weight usually is the weight of a 5th/gooseneck RV placed on the bed of the truck. That weight is typically 20-25% of the posted GVWR of a particular RV.
These terms can be used in either case, but the above is usual meanings. Some of the newer vehicles are now listing both weights in their trailer towing sections, unfortunately they still post max towing numbers which mean nothing if it exceeds all other posted numbers before reaching max tow. And RV manufacturers still post dry weights which is also a useless number to the RV buyer.

[CANINE]

Thanks rhagfo....yellow sticker relates 2115 or 959 kg in regards to Tire and Loading Information.

[JRTJH]

Thanks rhagfo....yellow sticker relates 2115 or 959 kg in regards to Tire and Loading Information.

So, doing the "quick math" when your truck left the factory, with a GVW of 10,000 lbs, and a payload of 2115 lbs, it weighed 7885 with a full fuel tank, all fluids and a 150 pound driver.

Yeah, I know, "who weighs 150 pounds any more?" That's the "allowance" that was established by the government "years ago" and has not been updated... Anyway, math shows that your truck weighed 7885 "out of the factory" so any weight added since then is "aftermarket stuff" and people/cargo that you've added. If you weight 250, then "with the allowance" you're adding 100 pounds to the "curb weight" which is the same as 'deducting 100 pounds from the 2115 payload"...

Honestly, at this point, until you hitch the trailer to the truck, visit the scales, park front truck axle on pad#1, rear truck axle on pad#2 and trailer axles on pad#3, you won't know "fur shur" what the rig weighs. Then, to know "fur shur" what the trailer pin weight and trailer axle weight really are, immediately drive off the scale, unhitch the trailer and return to the scale, park the front truck axle on pad#1 and the rear truck axle on pad#2.

With, as posted previously, those 5 numbers, you can pretty much confirm "EXACTLY" where you stand when it comes to rig weight, truck axle weight, truck weight, trailer pin weight, trailer axle weight. Those are going to be your "determining factors" on how much overweight you are and how much of that risk you're willing to assume with the current truck/trailer combo and/or what you're plans will be for future truck/trailer purchases....

[CANINE]

Thanks John.

"Fur Shur" appreciate the time folks spent providing information.

Will continue to look for a reasonable 1 ton in the near future.

In the mean time, will enjoy local camp sites.


Everyone stay safe regarding Corona...…….vic

[Froglaw]

I have a F250 4x4 with a Premier Bullet 26 Bumper pull.

Salesman tried to convince me to buy a BLUE OX anti-sway system to compensate for load and weight.

Luckily, a good friend of mine (hunting buddy and Federal Park Ranger) said let's drive it out to your deer camp and see how it rides.

Sure enough, even with a heavy cross wind, I was fine.

In 2017 I drove my rig up the Dalton Highway to Deadhorse Alaska and back.

Only problem was a flat trailer tire that I had changed out in Deadhorse by the local tire shop there.

Rig it up like you want and take it on a short trip. See how it handles.

F350's are great, but may be over kill.

That Blue Ox is still sitting in the showroom at the RV Dealership.

[tomkat2]

What XRated said in the very first reply is spot on. If you are coming to this forum for information, you're smart enough NOT to ignore the math. His answer is a solid foundation when asking the question "Is it enough truck"? Remember, it's not about what the truck can pull, it's about not overloading your trucks GVWR. My only argument would be that the 20% average when calculating pin weight is conservative. i've had 3 5'ers (2 Keystones and a Heartland) and the pin weights always came in at around 22% when fully loaded to camp. but the industry standard is to figure about 20% of trailer GVWR. Oh well.
Contrary to some advice you will get on these forums, listen to the numbers...err on the side of safety...and get all the truck you can for your rig

[Froglaw]

I'm not saying to ignore the math. I'm saying before you accept or ignore the math, take a test drive and see if the loading is an issue.

An F250 is a great towing vehicle. Do the math. If your not sure, before you go out and spend $85,000 on a new F350 take a test drive with the F250.

[JRTJH]

I'm not saying to ignore the math. I'm saying before you accept or ignore the math, take a test drive and see if the loading is an issue.

An F250 is a great towing vehicle. Do the math. If your not sure, before you go out and spend $85,000 on a new F350 take a test drive with the F250.

I'd go "just a tad further" than your recommendation....

Where you say, "Take a test drive and see if the loading is an issue"... That test drive should be "to the nearest CAT scale" where the numbers will talk for themselves....

I agree with your statement, "An F250 is a great towing vehicle"... I own one and use it every time we tow, which is over 40,000 miles on this truck. I'd add, "back to the first point"... See what the CAT scale shows...… The simple fact that "it feels good, tires don't squiggle and the steering wheel is solid" doesn't mean a darn thing when you're grossly overloaded and "pretending" a F250 is really a F350 with different fender placards....

If you intended your statement, "Take a test drive" to include all of my points, then I apologize for stepping in. On the other hand, if your implications were, "If it feels good, it is"... Then I disagree.....

[kcordell57]

Never saw if this part was posted. I ran into the same issue with a new 5th Wheel. One trip out, I weighed after fueling. I didn't drop the trailer and reweigh to save $10, but I should have. After I got home I looked at the weights. I thought my camper was 1K over advertised weight. I went and weighed my truck and was shocked that it was 1K over what I thought it weighed. I have and F250, 6.7, 4x4, Platinum with 8ft bed. All I had in the truck was me, a full tank of fuel(48 gallons) and a few tools and my Anderson Ultimate Hitch. My truck was 8560lbs on the scale. With that new info, went back and looked at my weights and my camper was right on. That put me 1120lbs over GVWR. I was under everywhere else. All kinds of answers, RV dealers do not know or care what truck you have, they want to sell a camper. Most truck dealers have no idea either. Insurance, some say ok, some say NO. Facebook (and forum)weight police, look out. What it comes down to is can you pull it? Yes. Can you stop it? Yes/No. Trailer Life magazine comes out with a tow issue every year. One of things they put in and after what I have seen and talked with others, MOST 5th wheels on the road are overweight somewhere. And, there is no such thing as a "1/2 ton towable". You MUST weigh to find out where you are at. The only information from your truck door sticker is axle weight ratings and GVWR. To further this, I looked a the numbers for a new F350 SRW. GVWR is 11500. That would put me 300lbs under with not much of a load in the truck or camper or wife in truck. So now I'm over again. So now I'm off to the dealer later, found a great deal on a 2019 F450 DRW. Now I can LEGALLY tow a house.

[Frosty46]

To the experts........am I figuring this correctly?

2012 F250 Crew Cab Lariat 6.7 short box
Steer Axle = 5000 (scale) Door shows 5200
Drive Axle = 3660 (scale) Door shows 6100
Gross Weight = 8660 GVWR 10,000
Curb Weight = 6787

2015 Cougar 303RLS High Country
Dry = 9735
Payload = 2365
GVWP = 12,100

Truck rated for 5th Wheel at 15,900.

Should be ok............correct.

My head is spinning on this, maybe I've read too many forums.

Thanks in advance

vic

I have a 2007 Dodge Ram 2500 with Cummins 6.7 diesel, Air Lift bags, improved intake setup, Hardway tuner, full deletes and it's two wheel drive. I pull a 35' Raptor that I overload horribly. Empty we get around 30 mpg and hooked up 14.7 mpg. Pulls like a monster and rides sweet when hooked up or carrying heavy loads. 8' bed crew cab so it's L o n g! I researched till my eyes fell out but never got a clear answer as to ratings from any source. Thinking you should be fine. check temps with an infrared thermometer of transmission and headers after a good pull to know where you are. Could buy those cool but expensive gauge sets to know constantly whats up.

[skmct]

just a word of caution. Before you run out and buy a 3500 srw. Do your home work. I cant speak about your truck and a new 3500 . But when I bought my 2500 hd in 2007 the payload ratings between a 2500 and a 3500 srw where not be that different. In fact I even compared part numbers on the axles spring brakes frames and wheels and tires. the springs tires and wheels where the only parts that changed.

[wiredgeorge]

I was a little surprised to see the 2K payload on the OP's F250. An F150 with the "payload package" (reg cab, 8' bed, big wheels and 5.0 is 3270 lbs. Of course you will never see this truck in the real world but having an F250 called a super duty and a 2k payload is kind of strange.

[Rayray04]

Two numbers to keep in mind - what can the truck pull? (this is usually called "max towing"), what can the truck carry? (this is usually payload). Your truck can pull a house but can't carry much because, as others stated, the diesel engine eats up a bunch of your payload because it's heavy.

Ironically, the highest payload F250 would be a stripped 4X2 because every option adds weight and takes away from available payload.

I hesitate to even open this Pandora's box but, what the hell..... your axle weight ratings combined total well above the GVWR that you are calculating your payload from. The internet is FULL of arguments about legality and whether it's okay to forget GVWR (payload you are thinking of) and just abide by axle limits. I lean more towards just going by the axle limits (which includes tires, brakes, etc.) but it's up to you.



So my 2013 F250 sticker on door says rear GAWR 6100lbs and front GAWR 5940lbs
GVWR 10000lbs I’m confuse what’s my payload.. my truck’s 8ft bed 4x4

[skmct]

I think the problem with a lot of the new trucks is the weight of these high optioned crew cabs. His loaded weight was a 1000 lbs higher than my 2007.
Mine is a pretty low optioned crew cab with cloth interior. I scaled mine loaded with hitch, dw me and what we travel with minis the two cats it came in at a little over 7600 lbs.

[KimNTerry]

It's the diesel and a higher trim package killing the payload.

My F150 with HDPP has a sticker payload of 2330 (GVWR of 7850)

Actual available Payload is math problem =
Payload = GVWR - Weight of truck at a scale loaded with people tools mods, etc ready to go camping.

for my truck it's 1900 or so with me, wife, little dog, handful of tools I always keep in the truck, and the hitch.

[Logan X]

So my 2013 F250 sticker on door says rear GAWR 6100lbs and front GAWR 5940lbs
GVWR 10000lbs I’m confuse what’s my payload.. my truck’s 8ft bed 4x4

There is a white and yellow sticker inside the driver’s door which says “all occupants and cargo shall not exceed xxxx”. This number is your payload capacity.

[rhagfo]

I think the problem with a lot of the new trucks is the weight of these high optioned crew cabs. His loaded weight was a 1000 lbs higher than my 2007.
Mine is a pretty low optioned crew cab with cloth interior. I scaled mine loaded with hitch, dw me and what we travel with minis the two cats it came in at a little over 7600 lbs.

Well I think there is just more to the truck!
Our previous truck was a 2001 Ram Laramie 2500 CTD Quad cab long bed. Loaded ready to tow it scaled 7,800#.
Current truck is a 2016 Ram Laramie 3500 crew cab long bed DRW ready to tow we scale 10,000#. So part of that is the difference of the quad cab to crew cab, there is more to the Laramie trim level than in 2001, also SRW to DRW. The frame and rear axle in this truck is massive.

[JRTJH]

So my 2013 F250 sticker on door says rear GAWR 6100lbs and front GAWR 5940lbs
GVWR 10000lbs I’m confuse what’s my payload.. my truck’s 8ft bed 4x4

Your GVW is 10,000 pounds, your payload is what's left over after you weigh the truck with everything that's in it at the time. 10,000 - truck weight = payload.

Your payload (as the truck left the factory) is listed in yellow on your driver's door pillar. That payload changes as you use fuel, as you add passengers, as you add a hitch or accessories to your truck. In other words, the payload is an "always moving number" depending on what you have in the truck.

As for the 6100 pound rear axle rating and the 5940 front axle rating, that adds up to 12,040 pounds. The "typical 2013 F250 FAWR is 4800 and the RAWR is 6100. That adds up to 10,900 pounds... The way Ford explains the difference in max axle ratings and GVW is that the excess is to allow for load variability. What Load Variability means is that with "excess at both axles, the driver can load "heavier in the cab OR heavier in the bed" and not overload the axles. The excess is necessary to prevent the driver from violating the GVW depending on where he/she places the load.

[kcordell57]

True, but the bottom line is GVWR, may not even be close to what sticker says for payload.

[kcordell57]

Somebody finally mentioned "airbags". While airbags are a great addition to level out the load and smooth out the ride, they DO NOT add to payload capacity.

[CANINE]

Certainly would like to put this post to bed.

I picked up the trailer today and drove to the scales....had to wait for the capture plate to come in and get installed.

Was quite surprised by the weights.....

Both vehicles are fully loaded for camping with nothing to add except water.....it's carrying hitch(model 2700 pull-rite super-glide), airbags/toolbox, etc:

Truck is 2012 F250 6.7 Diesel, factory tow package:
Steer Axle: 4960
Drive Axle: 3560
Payload sticker relates 2115.

Trailer is 2015 303RLS Cougar High Country package:
Again, 5ver and truck loaded with everything from our old camper and we can't think of nothing else needing to add.

Truck and 5ver together:
Steer Axle: 4900 (where did the 60lbs go when unhooked??)
Drive Axle: 5640
Trailer Axle: 8720

Just wanted to share and provide some lessons learned.

1) Make sure you know your trucks weight ratio's prior to picking a camper. Understand how they are figured and the difference of axle ratings vs GVWR and the likes....
2) Don't assume because your truck is similar to another it weighs the same.
3) Understand Dealer salesmen don't have a clue or don't care to explain weight ratios vs what your truck can pull. Just because the trailer sticker says 12,100 and your truck says it can pull 15,200......it still may not be the trailer and truck combo you would want during a quick maneuver or road situation.
4) Pulling a camper is one thing.....getting it to stop is another!!

Utilize the knowledge within these forums and make the best choice for you and your family.

Doing this will allow you to make an informed decision and not have to fret for a month reading everything you already read and feel you need to reverse your decision....make the correct one first and then enjoy the road.

I thank all the opinions, valid and invalid discussions, words of wisdom, and advice.

Have a great eve, be safe wherever you're hunkering down at and let's get this camping season started soon.

vic

[JRTJH]

...
Steer Axle: 4900 (where did the 60lbs go when unhooked??
...

vic

I'm glad it worked out for you.. Now, as you said, when does camping season start ???

As for where did that 60 lbs go? If you rehitch, you'll probably notice that the rear of your truck "squats a little" with the weight of the fifth wheel hitch and that the headlights "point a tad more toward the sky"...

That 60 pounds was "unloaded from the front end and added to the rear end" with the weight of the trailer "shifting the truck's center of gravity"

[Trip]

We Have a 2004 F250 6.0 diesel crew cab with a 6 ft bed. We also have a Cougar 30 RLS
Which except for minor floor plan difference is about the same size as th Cougar 303 RLS.
Last summer we pulled ours from Tn to The Grand Teton NP. The truck pulled the RV through the Mtns. with no issues at all. Because of the six foot bed we we did get the auto slider fifth wheel hitch. I love it you never have to worry about turning to sharp the hitch slides as you turn so th RV never gets close to the truck cab.

[CANINE]

Love the hitch also. For DW and myself, we love this floor plan and really love this 5ver. Feel so lucky to run across this on a Sat where we were just getting our old TT
de-winterized. I just happened to see it on the lot and it was a recent trade-in, the day before. Immediately jumped at the opportunity and so glad we did. Understood there were 5 people scheduling to walk thru....it wouldn't have lasted another day. This 2015 is immaculate inside and out. Really matches my TV colors well and our lifestyle. Looking forward to many years ahead.

[Harried Harry]

Kcordell57, you may be able to tow a house but it should be a small house so you don't get stopped for being over wide.
A friend has the F450 which she uses to tow her 5er. She is very happy with it especially since she is an itinerant veterinarian who travels to various places in Texas, New Mexico and Alaska.

[Harried Harry]

One thing I learned the hard way is to maximize the capabilities of the truck when you buy it so if you change the way you camp you won't need to replace your truck. I have a 2008 Dodge Ram 2500 QuadCab 4x4 with the CT Diesel and long bed. I have a 2003 Cougar 276 trailer and a 2008 Lance 915 truck camper. The trailer handles very well and is a great rig for camping. However, all my kids are now gone from home so we don't need room for five in the trailer. Most of my camping is now done with the Lance. The problem is the truck camper is much heavier than I realized when I bought it. Fully loaded it is around 3200#. I did check all the weights at the CAT scales, but somewhere along the way, the tickets disappeared.

I've decided to upgrade to a 3500 or F350 truck. I'm torn between a SRW or a dually but I don't want another diesel since I don't drive as much as I did when working full time. After I retired, I got involved on other activities and then my wife got sick. We now average about 7,000 miles a year among three vehicles.

I've looked at the F450 truck and it is very nice but I have not been able to test drive it.
I almost bought a used Chevy 3500 with the diesel but my wife could not see through or around the outside mirror. We let it go, but I may rethink about the diesels. The real challenge these days is all the computers and electronics installed on board must be maintained by a certified mechanic. This is a skill set hard to find. If I had purchased a 3500 truck when I bought my Dodge Ram, I would not need to replace it now.

[travelin texans]

One thing I learned the hard way is to maximize the capabilities of the truck when you buy it so if you change the way you camp you won't need to replace your truck. I have a 2008 Dodge Ram 2500 QuadCab 4x4 with the CT Diesel and long bed. I have a 2003 Cougar 276 trailer and a 2008 Lance 915 truck camper. The trailer handles very well and is a great rig for camping. However, all my kids are now gone from home so we don't need room for five in the trailer. Most of my camping is now done with the Lance. The problem is the truck camper is much heavier than I realized when I bought it. Fully loaded it is around 3200#. I did check all the weights at the CAT scales, but somewhere along the way, the tickets disappeared.

I've decided to upgrade to a 3500 or F350 truck. I'm torn between a SRW or a dually but I don't want another diesel since I don't drive as much as I did when working full time. After I retired, I got involved on other activities and then my wife got sick. We now average about 7,000 miles a year among three vehicles.

I've looked at the F450 truck and it is very nice but I have not been able to test drive it.
I almost bought a used Chevy 3500 with the diesel but my wife could not see through or around the outside mirror. We let it go, but I may rethink about the diesels. The real challenge these days is all the computers and electronics installed on board must be maintained by a certified mechanic. This is a skill set hard to find. If I had purchased a 3500 truck when I bought my Dodge Ram, I would not need to replace it now.

If your DW can't see around the Chevy mirrors not sure what you'd buy that she could, all the big 3 HD trucks have huge mirrors.

[kcordell57]

Certainly would like to put this post to bed.

I picked up the trailer today and drove to the scales....had to wait for the capture plate to come in and get installed.

Was quite surprised by the weights.....

Both vehicles are fully loaded for camping with nothing to add except water.....it's carrying hitch(model 2700 pull-rite super-glide), airbags/toolbox, etc:

Truck is 2012 F250 6.7 Diesel, factory tow package:
Steer Axle: 4960
Drive Axle: 3560
Payload sticker relates 2115.

Trailer is 2015 303RLS Cougar High Country package:
Again, 5ver and truck loaded with everything from our old camper and we can't think of nothing else needing to add.

Truck and 5ver together:
Steer Axle: 4900 (where did the 60lbs go when unhooked??)
Drive Axle: 5640
Trailer Axle: 8720

Just wanted to share and provide some lessons learned.

1) Make sure you know your trucks weight ratio's prior to picking a camper. Understand how they are figured and the difference of axle ratings vs GVWR and the likes....
2) Don't assume because your truck is similar to another it weighs the same.
3) Understand Dealer salesmen don't have a clue or don't care to explain weight ratios vs what your truck can pull. Just because the trailer sticker says 12,100 and your truck says it can pull 15,200......it still may not be the trailer and truck combo you would want during a quick maneuver or road situation.
4) Pulling a camper is one thing.....getting it to stop is another!!

Utilize the knowledge within these forums and make the best choice for you and your family.

Doing this will allow you to make an informed decision and not have to fret for a month reading everything you already read and feel you need to reverse your decision....make the correct one first and then enjoy the road.

I thank all the opinions, valid and invalid discussions, words of wisdom, and advice.

Have a great eve, be safe wherever you're hunkering down at and let's get this camping season started soon.

vic
So after weighing you were surprised (I was too with mine) and you are over on GVWR by 540lbs(if your truck is 10K GVWR). I am in the same situation and looking at an F450.

[rhagfo]

So after weighing you were surprised (I was too with mine) and you are over on GVWR by 540lbs(if your truck is 10K GVWR). I am in the same situation and looking at an F450.

Keep in mind while the F450 is a more stout truck, it has a smaller payload than a a F350.

[notanlines]

Kevin, keep in mind the 14K number seems to generally be a licensing limit put out there by states for some arbitrary reason. It is a favorite of 350/3500 owners to talk up their vehicle of choice. Buy what you can afford and what serves your purpose best. All things considered, I'd be driving an M2 sport chassis. It is only a matter of my wife and $25,000 difference that keeps me from it.:D

[kcordell57]

Keep in mind while the F450 is a more stout truck, it has a smaller payload than a a F350.

Well, I would beg to differ.

F350, 6.7, SRW, 8ft bed, 11,500 GVWR, truck weighs 8300lbs, that leaves 3200lbs payload.

F450, 6.7, DRW, 8ft bed, 14,000 GVWR, truck weighs 9200lbs, that leaves 4800lbs payload.

Again, payload is what's left after GVWR minus weight of truck, not what is on sticker.

[kcordell57]

Kevin, keep in mind the 14K number seems to generally be a licensing limit put out there by states for some arbitrary reason. It is a favorite of 350/3500 owners to talk up their vehicle of choice. Buy what you can afford and what serves your purpose best. All things considered, I'd be driving an M2 sport chassis. It is only a matter of my wife and $25,000 difference that keeps me from it.:D

I would have to agree, although my current F250 does just fine, I am a bit concerned about being over on GVWR, F350 is a nice upgrade, but not enough wiggle room in my mind. That's why I think the F450 DRW is the way to go. From what I've been told, NOTHING compares to pulling a 5er with a dually. My other issue is that it would be my daily driver too.

[tech740]

Well, I would beg to differ.

F350, 6.7, SRW, 8ft bed, 11,500 GVWR, truck weighs 8300lbs, that leaves 3200lbs payload.

F450, 6.7, DRW, 8ft bed, 14,000 GVWR, truck weighs 9200lbs, that leaves 4800lbs payload.

Again, payload is what's left after GVWR minus weight of truck, not what is on sticker.

I am guessing the original reference of this was a F350 DRW compared to a F450. You just compared a SRW to a DRW. Thats apples to oranges.

[rhagfo]

Well, I would beg to differ.

F350, 6.7, SRW, 8ft bed, 11,500 GVWR, truck weighs 8300lbs, that leaves 3200lbs payload.

F450, 6.7, DRW, 8ft bed, 14,000 GVWR, truck weighs 9200lbs, that leaves 4800lbs payload.

Again, payload is what's left after GVWR minus weight of truck, not what is on sticker.

Apples to Oranges!

F350 DRW to F450, same trim level the F350 will have more payload!

[rhagfo]

I would have to agree, although my current F250 does just fine, I am a bit concerned about being over on GVWR, F350 is a nice upgrade, but not enough wiggle room in my mind. That's why I think the F450 DRW is the way to go. From what I've been told, NOTHING compares to pulling a 5er with a dually. My other issue is that it would be my daily driver too.

This makes me think you really don’t know what Ford offers in one tons. There is both an F350 SRW and an F350 DRW.
I believe the current F350 SRW has a GVWR of 12,300#+/- the F350 DRW and F450 both have a GVWR of 14,000# so for the same trim level the more stoutly built F450 weighs more so will have less payload!

[JRTJH]

In Lariat trim,

The current F350 DRW 4x4 with a 14,000 GVW payload is 7210
The current F450 DRW 4x4 with a 14,000 GVW payload is 5900

So yes, the F350 DRW has significantly greater payload.

https://www.ford.com/trucks/super-duty/models/f350-lariat/

[rhagfo]

In Lariat trim,

The current F350 DRW 4x4 with a 14,000 GVW payload is 7210
The current F450 DRW 4x4 with a 14,000 GVW payload is 5900

So yes, the F350 DRW has significantly greater payload.

https://www.ford.com/trucks/super-duty/models/f350-lariat/

I find it hard to believe that an F350 Lariat DRW weighs less than 7,000#, I know they have aluminum bodies, but that is extremely light for a
DRW.

[xrated]

In Lariat trim,

The current F350 DRW 4x4 with a 14,000 GVW payload is 7210
The current F450 DRW 4x4 with a 14,000 GVW payload is 5900

So yes, the F350 DRW has significantly greater payload.

https://www.ford.com/trucks/super-duty/models/f350-lariat/

John, that Dually with the 7210 payload is a very stripped down model....maybe even a gasser. My 2016 F350 Dually King Ranch Diesel has a 5270 lb payload. The newer ones with Aluminum everything will definitely have a bit more payload, but not 7210 worth.

[JDDilly]

On the RAM site you can put in the VIN and get all the capacity info.

[rhagfo]

On the RAM site you can put in the VIN and get all the capacity info.

That is not 100% accurate, it list my payload about 200# higher than the yellow sticker 5,411#.

[JRTJH]

I find it hard to believe that an F350 Lariat DRW weighs less than 7,000#, I know they have aluminum bodies, but that is extremely light for a
DRW.

John, that Dually with the 7210 payload is a very stripped down model....maybe even a gasser. My 2016 F350 Dually King Ranch Diesel has a 5270 lb payload. The newer ones with Aluminum everything will definitely have a bit more payload, but not 7210 worth.

Click on the link, go to the specs on the Ford site, scroll down to payload. The Lariat F350 regular cab 8' bed DRW 4x4 payload is 7210. There is no indication of which engine it is. My guess would be the 6.2L, but that's a guess.

The F450 is also a regular cab 8' bed DRW 4x4.

The crew cab trucks are heavier, so with the same GVW, payload will be less than with the trucks I posted....

The data is directly from the specs sheet for the Lariat trim level, regular cab trucks... https://www.ford.com/trucks/super-duty/models/f350-lariat/

ADDED: I think I see where the confusion is....

The Ford chart, although it lists "Lariat trim" uses the same "base model specs"..

Those specs list the base curb weight for the regular cab, 7.3L (gas) 4x4 DRW truck at 6713 pounds.

The F350 base regular cab, 6.7l (diesel) 4x4 DRW curb weight is 7427.
The F450 base regular cab, 6.7l (diesel) 4x4 DRW Curb weight is 8012.

So, doing the math at 14,000 GVW, the 350 payload is 6573 and the 450 payload is 5988.

So, the point I was trying to make remains the same, the F350 has a larger payload than the F450 in "comparably equipped base model trucks".. If you start adding equipment, changing up models, trim packages and options, then that "base model data" wouldn't apply to some other comparison..

[Badbart56]

https://www.ford.com/trucks/super-duty/models/f450-limited/


And here is the specs for 350 and 450.

[xrated]

My Dually, by itself weighs just under 9400 lbs, but that also includes a crossbed toolbox with stuff in it, a Companion 25K hitch, and a 42 gallon Aux. Tank loaded with diesel fuel.

[rhagfo]

My Dually, by itself weighs just under 9400 lbs, but that also includes a crossbed toolbox with stuff in it, a Companion 25K hitch, and a 42 gallon Aux. Tank loaded with diesel fuel.

Is that with you in it or nobody in the truck just the truck?

Our 2016 Ram Laramie DRW with hitch prep and hitch and adapter, DW, me, dog and cross bed tool box scales at 10,000#. It has a listed yellow sticker payload of 5,411#.
This should be a reminder to those that look at "Payload" as what is available for pin weight. So I have used about 26% of available payload before hitching up the 5er.

[Roscommon48]

Ken, I did call my insurance agent and he said an accident, like discussed, if it happened, would be covered by insurance. This thread remains of the 'tire' or 'which truck is best' threads that go one and on forever.


Common sense and even stupid sense are covered by insurance. But that is why you need to talk to your own insurance agent in your state.

[xrated]

Is that with you in it or nobody in the truck just the truck?

Our 2016 Ram Laramie DRW with hitch prep and hitch and adapter, DW, me, dog and cross bed tool box scales at 10,000#. It has a listed yellow sticker payload of 5,411#.
This should be a reminder to those that look at "Payload" as what is available for pin weight. So I have used about 26% of available payload before hitching up the 5er.

That includes me in the seat. Add in my wife and OMG....it goes up drastically.......105 lbs. :D