Lippert Level-Up system

[midmo]

Hello, Quick question for the group...has anyone had an issue with their control panel powering off during any (up/down) movement? Mine started early last year and reported it to the dealer...it didn't do it for them (of course). I now have the panel powering off during manual movements every time (within 5-10 seconds) and it does it intermittently during auto level or all retract. It will turn back on when I press the power button but then repeat the cycle issue. I have good batteries (even does it when connected to shore power) and made sure all electrical connectors are clean and used dielectric grease when reconnecting to prevent water/dirt intrusion. I am not bashing Lippert or complaining about the Level-Up system...it's electronics and these things happen...been around these type of issues throughout my career in aviation. Sometimes it just helps to ask around to get ideas. Thanks in advance for your help with the brainstorm...

2019 Fuzion 369

[JRTJH]

It sounds like a voltage issue. If the battery voltage drops below a specific point, the system will "go into lockout".

It may be that your batteries are the issue, it may be the batteries are not the problem, but a loose connection, a "mis-crimped connector" or corrosion on a terminal is causing the issue.

I'd start with a good battery check, then move to checking the 2-3 "mini DC breakers" near the batteries, all their connections, especially the grounds on the leveling system.

It may be something else, but many threads on here have documented similar problems and it usually winds up being a low voltage issue, caused by one of may problems.

[midmo]

Thanks! Should be a nice day tomorrow so I'll start running with those ideas.

[bobbecky]

This is the classic issue with these rigs where they used a 40 or 50 amp auto breaker on the battery circuit feeding the hydraulic pump, where Lippert recommends using an 80 amp breaker. Find the wire that comes off the hydraulic pump motor going to the batteries, and replace the breaker it goes to with an 80 amp breaker, and all your problems will go away. Pictured, the old breaker, usually with a red plastic insulating cover, an 80 amp breaker to replace the small breaker, and the last photo of how our rig was set up, with the new breaker installed where the small breaker used to be. Also included, the Lippert pdf document about changing the breaker.

[ChuckS]

Since you’ve got good DC voltage and from your post it would seem the connections at battery are good I’d also take a few minutes and pop out the level up control panel and reseat the plug on back side...

Also locate front controller indicated in pic and remove and reseat connections I’ve circled. On the front remote sensor you will see a single red wire plugged in..

Follow this downstream and there will be a small fuse holder..remove fuse and clean holder contacts and reinstall fuse

This single red lead supplies ALL 12 vdc power to level up control panel as well as front controller and remote rear sensor.

And as other fella stated.. if you still have OEM 50 amp resettable breaker upgrade to 80 amp to stop breaker from tripping during high current draw from pump motor

[midmo]

Outstanding! I will definitely replace the 50A breaker will the Lippert recommended 80A, I have not done that yet. I have cleaned/protected the electrical connections of the system but will verify I got them all using the diagram. The batteries have always been on a trickle charger when parked (not camping) and water level checked semi-annually but I have not load tested them since new...maybe one has a bad cell allowing voltage to drop...I'll test that. Didn't even think of the in-line fuses since the system would power right back on. Gonna scrub the whole system! Great advice all! Thank you

[LewisB]

...Also locate front controller indicated in pic and remove and reseat connections I’ve circled. On the front remote sensor you will see a single red wire plugged in..


I found one connector on the front controller that was not making good connections and gave intermittent power problems like you describe...in my case it would work one day and not the next...seemed to be temperature related...reset the 4 connectors on the front controller and have not had problems since.

Good luck - don't you just love intermittent electrical problems! :banghead:

[midmo]

Just an update... I cleaned/protected/reset all connectors on the front sensor and control panel. Ordered the 80A circuit breaker so I'm waiting for that to come in. Didn't have to much time to work on it due to other projects but was able to verify the cleaned connectors were not the issue. Thanks for the continued advice.

[flybouy]

A "good voltage reading can be deceptive. Read voltage at the battery, then at the switch or relay. If they are not the same then there is a connection issue. Then repeat that process while operating the motor. If you have a large drop, say from 12.5 down to 10 AR less volts than Either the battery isn't holding a charge or the motor is causing an issue drawing high amps (shorted winding, mechanical binding, etc).

If the voltage drops considerably then have batteries load tested by competent shop. If they are good then look at the motor and mechanical attachments to that motor.

[JRTJH]

Just an update... I cleaned/protected/reset all connectors on the front sensor and control panel. Ordered the 80A circuit breaker so I'm waiting for that to come in. Didn't have to much time to work on it due to other projects but was able to verify the cleaned connectors were not the issue. Thanks for the continued advice.

I know, suggestions "after the work is done and the panels are buttoned up" is always "welcomed".... :facepalm:

That said, I always apply silicone di-electric compound on all connector pins after cleaning. The "leveling system" is "somewhat protected from the elements and it may not be as important there as on the 7 pin umbilical plugs, the battery cable connections at the mini-breakers and the BCO switch contacts, but if you've still got access, maybe a liberal application of di-electric grease might be beneficial ???

Some people swear by it, some people swear at it... Depending on which "camp" you're in, it's a consideration.....

[ChuckS]

If you put the red meter lead from multi meter to each of the two wires I’ve circled on the dual polarity solenoid... Green and then yellow.. with black meter lead to ground and measure the voltage present at solenoid while someone operates level up control the voltage must stay above 11.5 volts at all times while pump motor runs

You should see 13 plus volts DC with shore power connected while doing this test.

If voltage drops below 11.5 volts DC the level system will error out every time

[Mikendebbie]

I installed the 80 amp circuit breaker (as suggested by bobbecky in post #4) and solved the problem on my unit.

[midmo]

I truly appreciate all the detailed diagnostic/validation steps offered so far! I also used dielectric grease on every connection after cleaning...just something I've always done (not just the RV):). It was raining here all day today...again...so I'll look into them soon and report back.

Taking the RV out of winter hibernation has been "interesting" this past week. I knew I had the Level-Up issue to address when I parked it in its enclosed area but during the winter I noticed the generator wasn't supplying power to the rig when I was doing the monthly run/warm-up/load cycle. After I got our rig home I started troubleshooting, turns out I have a bad internal neutral switch in my auto transfer switch. Got in contact with WFCO, the maker of the switch, and they've been helpful starting the warranty claim. And thennnn.....once I connected to house power I realized the radio didn't turn on. Tore that open (not the radio) and verified good voltage in the harness and good fuses, got authorization to send the radio off for repair/replacement, ASAElectronics were great to work with. It's been a sudden crash course in RV maintenance, but I'm getting to learn where things are located, how they work and gaining some valuable experience (bonus: I'm figuring out what I need for my RV toolbox:D.)

I am SO READY for the parks to open up and camping to begin. :party:

[midmo]

Latest update...I installed the 80A breaker today. Made this the dedicated Lippert system breaker as it was previously sharing the 50A with another lead. Made a new 4ga positive lead wire, battery to 80A, and ohm'd it out to ensure good current flow. Since I had the batteries out, I cleaned, inspected the water again and preformed a load lest with a tester I have. I did keep the old 50A breaker installed due to the unknown lead previously sharing space with the Lippert lead. The old 6ga positive battery lead became the jumper from the 80A power in to the 50A power in, mirroring the set-up in the battery bay already.

Hooked everything up, took a deep breath and hit the power button. The system powered on. Another deep breath...retracted the rear leveling jacks, all good. No power cycles...would have had about three a couple days ago. Whelp...nothing left to do but do it...autolevel engage. Landing gear go down, start the climb back up and I start to hear a valve rapidly cycling (sounded like a grinding), the control panel dims but does not power down, and a "Low Voltage" error is displayed. Crap...hook up the trickle charger (started at 90+% charge), have a drink and move to other projects. Couple hours later I check the batteries, good to go, run the system and the same error. Go manual, the system wants to and can retract the gear but extending causes the pump to rapid cycle. Disconnect everything I had my hands on to validate continuity, all good. The one thing I did not do was check voltage readings off the dual polarity solenoid. I couldn't get a reading from the yellow wire but I was able to verify solid voltage from the green wire as my wife miraculously extended the leveling gear. At least the rig is solidly sitting on 4 tires and 5 jacks now...the 6th didn't quite make it down all the way.

Good news is the control panel is solid but now there is this new development. Have anyone experienced an issue similar or have a suggestion. Maybe I am missing something right in front of my face, I don't know. Thanks again to all for the advice and help.

[xrated]

Latest update...I installed the 80A breaker today. Made this the dedicated Lippert system breaker as it was previously sharing the 50A with another lead. Made a new 4ga positive lead wire, battery to 80A, and ohm'd it out to ensure good current flow. Since I had the batteries out, I cleaned, inspected the water again and preformed a load lest with a tester I have. I did keep the old 50A breaker installed due to the unknown lead previously sharing space with the Lippert lead. The old 6ga positive battery lead became the jumper from the 80A power in to the 50A power in, mirroring the set-up in the battery bay already.

Hooked everything up, took a deep breath and hit the power button. The system powered on. Another deep breath...retracted the rear leveling jacks, all good. No power cycles...would have had about three a couple days ago. Whelp...nothing left to do but do it...autolevel engage. Landing gear go down, start the climb back up and I start to hear a valve rapidly cycling (sounded like a grinding), the control panel dims but does not power down, and a "Low Voltage" error is displayed. Crap...hook up the trickle charger (started at 90+% charge), have a drink and move to other projects. Couple hours later I check the batteries, good to go, run the system and the same error. Go manual, the system wants to and can retract the gear but extending causes the pump to rapid cycle. Disconnect everything I had my hands on to validate continuity, all good. The one thing I did not do was check voltage readings off the dual polarity solenoid. I couldn't get a reading from the yellow wire but I was able to verify solid voltage from the green wire as my wife miraculously extended the leveling gear. At least the rig is solidly sitting on 4 tires and 5 jacks now...the 6th didn't quite make it down all the way.

Good news is the control panel is solid but now there is this new development. Have anyone experienced an issue similar or have a suggestion. Maybe I am missing something right in front of my face, I don't know. Thanks again to all for the advice and help.

I have a different brand trailer than yours, and the 6 point hydraulic leveling system. After less than a year of use, mine started "kicking out" when operating the landing gear legs up front. Mine is a 2018 model and came from the factory with the 50 amp auto-reset breaker and that was tripping when the temperatures got a little colder. I requested an 80 amp from Grand Design to replace it and I installed it in the trailer. You stated that you replaced the feed wire from the battery to the breaker, and I did the same thing. But I didn't see where you said that you replaced the Black wire from the pump to frame ground. If you didn't replace this wire, it needs to be done also. If you think about it, every electrical circuit requires a completer circuit to operate. The feed from the battery to the breaker, the breaker to the pump reversing contractor...AND the Black wire from the pump motor to ground. That smaller size wire from the pump motor to ground is like a bottleneck in the circuit since it is still smaller gauge wire. I replaced all the power wires....Red And Black and I've not had anymore issues.

And just as a reference point....the hydraulic pump when running and operating the landing gears on my trailer is pulling right at 70 amps, so the 80 amp breaker needs to be there instead of the 50A breaker. Not changing the ground wire from the pump to a larger gauge wire can cause a voltage drop which will affect the entire system and cause the battery voltage to drop. Hope this helps.

[Roscommon48]

have you talked to lippert about this? they can help you while you are at the panel. and if it is a 2019 you still have a warranty...get it back to service.

[midmo]

Thanks for the additional information about the ground wire. I bought the trailer in 2018 so I'm just outside the warranty window. I did contact Lippert and they have been helpful as well, so far all the companies I've contacted these past two weeks have really stepped up to help. The system is still faulting, unfortunately, I got a lot of pans in the fire and I am running out of time I can dedicate to this to get this corrected before a big trip we have planned (still holding our breath that we can go) so I've made contact with a dealer to have them look at it. I do appreciate the time everyone took to share. I'll close the loop on this thread when I hear what the fix was so it may help someone in the future.

[JJaxon]

Listening, for future reference. Thanks all for the detailed posts.
John.
2020 Fuzion 369 owner...

[pdaniel]

Hello, Quick question for the group...has anyone had an issue with their control panel powering off during any (up/down) movement? Mine started early last year and reported it to the dealer...it didn't do it for them (of course). I now have the panel powering off during manual movements every time (within 5-10 seconds) and it does it intermittently during auto level or all retract. It will turn back on when I press the power button but then repeat the cycle issue. I have good batteries (even does it when connected to shore power) and made sure all electrical connectors are clean and used dielectric grease when reconnecting to prevent water/dirt intrusion. I am not bashing Lippert or complaining about the Level-Up system...it's electronics and these things happen...been around these type of issues throughout my career in aviation. Sometimes it just helps to ask around to get ideas. Thanks in advance for your help with the brainstorm...

2019 Fuzion 369
As someone previously recommended, change the automatic circuit breaker from 50amp to 80 amp.

[Rob 1204]

I just purchased a 2020 Raptor and I’m having the same issue

[Todd 423]

I have a similar issue, but only happens when it is cold. After it looses power can you hear an audile click? That is the breaker reseting. I haven't replaced anything on mine yet, but will replace the breaker first if it continues.

[Rob 1204]

Mine is a 413 and it’s doing the exact same thing but it does it even if it’s not cold out

[PKraus29]

Yes, I had the same problem. It took a while to diagnose but with persistence my repair shop figured it out. Turns out per Lippert, that Keystone is the only manufacturer that adds resettable breakers to the leveling jacks. Turns out they wear out every few years. Fortunately they are only a few bucks each. My Raptor had 3 of them on the ceiling right above the jack controls in the battery bay. They look like posts that are direct connect to the battery. They also had in line fuse for each one.

[Beachside]

I have the same issue. After tracing the wire from the solenoid it goes to what I imagine is a 50 amp breaker. There is a second wire same diameter going to the breaker which I do not know where it comes from. My question is: I have three breakers which are tied together. Will it be ok to just change the one to an 80 amp? In the picture, the breaker in question is the far right one.

[bobbecky]

Yes. The breaker that has a cable going to the hydraulic pump motor is the only one you need to replace with an 80 amp breaker. The second cable coming off the terminal that has the pump cable is the cable that goes to the main electric panel inside. They can do that because you have no load on that breaker from the panel while you are running the level system, and once leveled, your load off the inside panel is the only load on that breaker.

[Rob 1204]

Where did you purchase the 80 amp breaker?

[midmo]

Alright...this will hopefully close the loop on the issue I was having with my Level-Up system. Took it to the dealer for an unrelated issue and asked them to scrub the system for me while it was there. I provided a detailed list of all the items I checked and replaced, along with the Lippert Sheet 058 provided earlier in the thread. The dealer looked over the system, he liked the 80A set-up (thank you for making me aware of that) and quickly validated my list. He did say that the list helped to shorten the time he needed to spend on it, which is good. Here's what he did. Cleaned the system grounds (not on the battery) and had to order a replacement control panel. My old panel was not responding to inputs consistently and he had a panel available to confirm his theory. The system now works flawlessly!

Thank you again for all your suggestions and advice! I learned a lot about this system and appreciate all the help!!

[midmo]

Where did you purchase the 80 amp breaker?

I got mine from Amazon....search for " BP/CB185-80 "

[midmo]

I have the same issue. After tracing the wire from the solenoid it goes to what I imagine is a 50 amp breaker. There is a second wire same diameter going to the breaker which I do not know where it comes from. My question is: I have three breakers which are tied together. Will it be ok to just change the one to an 80 amp? In the picture, the breaker in question is the far right one.

My bay looks really similar to yours. I kept the three original breakers from Keystone installed, just took the Lippert lead and routed it to the newly installed 80A breaker (I installed mine towards the back wall) so the Lippert lead curls down and back. New battery cable went to the 80A. Old battery cable is now the jumper from the 80A to the 50A I just removed the Lippert lead from. I kept the unknown lead attached to the 50A breaker. Not saying it's the best way...just what I did.

The 80A breaker will probably require different size terminal ends. Mine did (quick trip to NAPA)

Side note: While I was chasing wires around the outside of the coach trying to figure out flow paths, I wrapped same color electrical tape (different patterns) on the two ends of one wire once the path was found. For example: red wire-yellow tape/dual polarity solenoid power to red wire-yellow/80A breaker, this will hopefully help reduce the troubleshooting effort in the future by having the paths pre-identified.

[cmazda]

Amen on the Bob & Becky breaker solution listed above, I had the same issue, replaced as directed; works like a charm!

[ACJCF2]

What he said. 2020 Carbon.