Warning for Keystone Cougar 22rbs owners....

[rabbit59]

I need this to get to someone higher up in Keystone. There should be a recall as this is safety related. Me and the wife drove our Keystone Cougar 22rbs TT to camping world in Buffalo for a recall on wiring issue. They fixed it and we headed back south for the 80 mile trip. Half way home, where you get off 4 lane 219 back to 2 lane, we heard a clunk, and then a scraping sound. My wife crawled back to look out back window of Sequoia, and yelled the propane tanks were dragging!!! I got pulled over and found the 4 bolts that they bolted pan to frame broke off clean at frame!!! They obviously used cheap grade bolts that let whole assembly break loose. We took hose off fitting to main gas line, and disassembled the tanks from switch assembly. I did lose the black plastic covers from over tanks through all this. But Keystone should know about this!! I'm going to go take a picture and post also. You can see these are not grade stamped bolts and quite small I might add.

[sourdough]

You might read the disclaimer at the bottom of this page and every page; this forum is not affiliated with Keystone in any way nor do they monitor it as far as anyone knows. Your best bet is to forward your experience, complaint and pictures to Keystone and insist on their attention. You do not give the year of your trailer but age could/would have a bearing on their response I'm sure.

[rabbit59]

I did contact them. It is a brand new 2020 not even camped in yet. But I did contact them. Thank you

[flybouy]

As stated, your efforts to contact Keystone Corp. here will be in vain. That said, I would have turned around and gone back to the dealer. Looking at the pictures you posted I have 2 observations.
1, the tank tray appears to be intact. I would think a force strong enough to break 4 bolts would have distorted the tray.
2 looking at the marks on the tray left by the fender washers it looks like they used some very small screws (I assume self tapping).

Call the dealer, make them correct it. Also check the hoses and the tanks closely to make sure that the weight of the tanks bouncing around hasn't created an issue.

[JRTJH]

Looking at your photos, it looks like the propane tray was relocated (probably by the dealer/whoever installed your hitch). There are 4 holes where the screws were relocated that are visible in the top photo.

It's common for propane trays to need relocation and it's done every day to accommodate different length WD bars on different brands of hitches.

My guess is that your dealership did that, not Keystone. Now, if there weren't those "spare screw holes" I'd suspect that Keystone was responsible. With the 4 extra holes, that tells me that "somebody" in the delivery/PDI/hitch installation is who "treated you so well"......:facepalm:

[slow]

I am with John on this. The tray has been relocated by someone, most likely by the dealer to accommodate the hitch.

At work (acoustic silencer fabrication) I have witnessed the #14 self drilling/tapping screws used to mount the tray be over torqued without any immediate evidence of failure. Come back the next day and the screw heads are popped off. We did torque testing and found that most #14 screws, independent of source failed at 22 ft-lbs or slightly higher. So using an impact wrench/gun is a big no-no. A properly set clutched driver is the only thing that allowed us to avoid screw failures.

I would address the issue with the dealer.

[mullhaupt]

Heres my 2020 22rbs tanks seems like yours is weak for 60 lbs of propane can't believe some one did that


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/n1PRV6VKLCRwOYkxWwVASct1pVVX7Gb0CR565hDIW5HHXQixqy PXr4WwyRikUfKTy-_5E3a7BGkRJxdQfyJryz3IFplb5IZlZ1MeGU9mExo9WEW6KDps mHFr7TfeKOx_ZY-R8yUVnmPVA3noF8BC28fpyXe6S-HaKV9D0_7x5mBEeed5xdxiwn5r3suKvLFJqup9zGQC1tJHRsD7 ubM2t9XwC35QlaFkhFepj2GP0pWNNgY1Nu6wtv-ratkicpyxyJ1hepeL8_ZEzqHVBXwxel5KD2EZiY_j4pzZdcBTB CMqBges9e49OPMlULD7LezUgdahG_tZk3kjlC46Ti-1UjsC8Q_nWm45AxQTaZfu2PKM6kBJVPx8N_Lyz21MDOszIkHYW jkNkPmh8UW72Jk74DNS1yEWg8MkGXhZEk-WlB_rLh4JPryv-MDgBxGuov1gsJ9u8G_x145t9HWAZibpL_v65JTYg2D4r9SZOsg ABrhhXlaSo6c90iDk6SgmLNcc6bcUr8uiTom-NVO5CBb6r3RU2APPbJPhFIZzAxC7589uHDWXnWMwiEMvFWAbQ-4ANNusDU1SrYcCZapekJ4edClVnv7JYmUmbf9DXsXtW9qxFP6E 5GFs0OeoHJclYinUN2cTm9MF5OlDgs06FCUyOZExoI7oLo3E0o AXXp7Jd57alh4-s-g3z1KAljmY0g=w966-h1286-no

[rabbit59]

I cant view picture mullhaup. I'd like too but it's not there. Thanks anyways.

[mullhaupt]

https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipNzaZLApFwIRKKE54ftDMnLpJdcPVNG3Qhm2bmS

[rabbit59]

Your pics are not posting mullhaupt.

[Ken / Claudia]

Its been a few days, what did the dealer say.

[rabbit59]

I'm talking directly to Keystone. And...they have not called me back yet. So, I drilled and tapped for 5/16 and bolted it down with grade 8 bolts, locktite, washers, and lock washers...very stout now. But still no cover that went bye bye. I'm hoping they will at least replace that!!!

[skids]

I'm talking directly to Keystone. And...they have not called me back yet. So, I drilled and tapped for 5/16 and bolted it down with grade 8 bolts, locktite, washers, and lock washers...very stout now. But still no cover that went bye bye. I'm hoping they will at least replace that!!!

Those look pretty good. Did you thread the holes in the frame for the new bolts?

[mullhaupt]

if you can't see my pics how are you posting your pics, maybe I can do it that way, do others see my pics if so let us know

[rabbit59]

Yes skids...I drilled it with a F size drill bit I believe for 5/16 course bolt. Then tapped it. I went bigger to get more thread surface area as the depth is only maybe 3/16 thick.

[rabbit59]

mallhaupt....when you click "go advance" , under where you write a reply is a button to manage attachments. Have the pictures on your phone or tablet or laptop where you know their location. Just attach pictures to response and they should post. See if that works....

[Ken / Claudia]

What was wrong with contacting the service manager at the dealer or another dealer. Unless it has changed that's the 1st contact and the dealer is who will gets the ear at keystone.
I hope you hear back from Keystone, but after being on this forum it sounds that is unlikely.

[Gumby52]

Okay, now you've got me wondering... I've got a 2018 22RBS, that I installed the wd hangers on, (dealer wanted $256.00 to install my brackets on my trailer - nevermind). I was able to locate them at the prescribed distance from the centerline of the ball without moving anything. But still, I'm going to pull both my tanks to see how the base plate is secured.

BTW - looking at your pictures, it looks like the original bolts were just sheared off - not even unscrewed? Is that right?

[chuckster57]

Most WD with chains use 30” from ball. A lot of trunnion styles use a lot less and can interfere with the propane tank plate. I have moved a few and always used the factory self tapping screws.

[Logan X]

I agree with John. It looks like you should talk to the dealer or whoever installed the WDH to see if they moved the tray. Because the tray was moved it doesn’t seem to be a factory issue.

I’m glad to see you got it fixed. That should be solid now.

[rabbit59]

Gumby52....yes they sheared off inroute....I believe they probably rocked a little bit from tank height and the bolts cracked one by one till they all broke. They were small, cheap, self tapping bolts. Maybe 1/4 at most.

[Capt Don]

Yep, same thing here. They did not even put washers on our mount plate. Only self tapping screws. Due to dissimilar corrosion and cheap screws I caught 3 of 4 snapped and repaired the problem. Not to mention the underlayment popping up under the TPO membrane that Keystone denied my claim... Love my camper Hate Keystone!

[JRTJH]

Gumby52....yes they sheared off inroute....I believe they probably rocked a little bit from tank height and the bolts cracked one by one till they all broke. They were small, cheap, self tapping bolts. Maybe 1/4 at most.

Yep, same thing here. They did not even put washers on our mount plate. Only self tapping screws. Due to dissimilar corrosion and cheap screws I caught 3 of 4 snapped and repaired the problem. Not to mention the underlayment popping up under the TPO membrane that Keystone denied my claim... Love my camper Hate Keystone!

From what I can tell, NOBODY has yet determined if the propane tray was relocated to install the hitch or if the screws being used were installed by someone "outside the factory". Far too many people are "quick to blame Keystone" with no earthly idea whether someone at a hitch installation shop or an RV dealership may well be the "guilty party"....

If you buy a new Ford (or GM) truck and someone at a "custom tint shop" screws up tinting the windows or the LINE-X installer screws up the bed coating, can you really "blame Ford (or GM) ????

It's ultimately "up to your dealership" to make sure the trailer was delivered to you "ready to use".... If some "third party" is removing and reinstalling components, that's NOT a Keystone factory issue......

[Ken / Claudia]

Yeah, he has remained silent about starting at step 1 to fix a problem before going to the last step.
My opinion, phoning the or any companies headquarters is a big waste of time. If you talk to anyone, they are office people not anyone who builds/repairs/sells their products. Their answers are about as good as the sales pitches they print on the booklets.

[JRTJH]

Customer support (phone answering employees) in almost every company are a part of the "public relations department". They are not a part of the engineering department, the manufacturing department or the quality control department. Often times, such as with Keystone and Dutchman, they aren't even a part of the same company....

Complaining to the "phone tree" about an issue with manufacturing or quality control is very much like complaining to the janitor at McD's about your hospital bill. Two different departments (often in two different companies) that typically only talk to one another at lunch or at the weekly "how goes it" meeting where conversations are limited to a maximum of 30 minutes on a Friday afternoon while checks are being distributed..... We all know how much "effective work" gets done on Friday afternoon in a "time limited meeting" while waiting for the pay clerk to drop off the checks and watching the clock to make sure everyone beats the bank drive through line closing time...….

The point is: Calling Keystone to complain about a propane rack failure is very much like "self inflicted punishment". After the bruising resolves, you've still got a busted propane tank and hopefully little scarring. It's for sure Keystone won't be sending a repairman to fix your propane tank rack. The best you can expect is a comment, "Please contact your dealership for any assistance"......

[rabbit59]

Actually jrtjh, I talked to a gentleman at keystone, Tom, that meets with a team of ac people. They know about it and maybe a recall will be issued.

[JRTJH]

Actually jrtjh, I talked to a gentleman at keystone, Tom, that meets with a team of ac people. They know about it and maybe a recall will be issued.

Don't hold your breath waiting for that recall, or on a return call from Tom to let you know the results of your talk with him. BTW, where does "Tom" work and who is on that "team of ac people"... I've never heard of that team....

[chuckster57]

Actually jrtjh, I talked to a gentleman at keystone, Tom, that meets with a team of ac people. They know about it and maybe a recall will be issued.


I’ll be curious to see what the “recall” is. It seems like I can spend 1/2 my day doing different recalls, TSB’s and such. Please post any further information.

[flybouy]

Sounds to me the most likely "recall" will be the OP "recalling" Keystone every day trying to get answer to a problem that no longer exists because he fixed it himself. Am I missing something?

[Capt Don]

I don't believe we will ever see one. With the lack quality I am starting to find (and repair myself) If they cared they would simply do a better job to start with. I understand Cost of product vs price sold... but some of these short sighted engineering is gonna get some people killed. And in fairness from what I read on other sights it is industry wide.... gggeeezzzzzz !!!!

[JRTJH]

I don't believe we will ever see one. With the lack quality I am starting to find (and repair myself) If they cared they would simply do a better job to start with. I understand Cost of product vs price sold... but some of these short sighted engineering is gonna get some people killed. And in fairness from what I read on other sights it is industry wide.... gggeeezzzzzz !!!!

It is an "industry wide problem". I was looking at a GD Reflection fifth wheel yesterday. The front passthrough doors are cut "lower than the top of the frame rails" to give a "bit more clearance and space" There is a plastic liner at the bottom of those cutouts. It appears sealed to the frame and the "J-wrap" and looks to be "water resistant". HOWEVER: If you push on the "plastic floor" with 2 fingers, it flexes and you can feel that "single layer floor" by putting your other hand under the "J-wrap". It's a "single layer plastic floor" about 1/16" thick. Put a 30 pound tool pouch in that area, "bounce down any interstate in America" and you'll be backtracking to find your tools.

Cougar, on the other hand, uses a solid floor over the outriggers in that area. Cougar, however, has elected to discontinue the "roof edge molding" located under the TPO that transitioned the OSB roof decking to the sidewall. That molding "rounded the edges" to prevent sharp edges from cutting the EPDM membrane. With TPO, apparently Keystone determined there's not enough "problem with cut roof membrane" to continue using the roof edge molding.

So, every RV manufacturer "takes weight reduction steps", some on the roof, some in the passthrough, some in other areas, but they ALL are building trailers "at the bare minimum" not "at with significant reserve strength".....

[Capt Don]

Sorry, my problem is with the underlayment of the TPO roof membrane. and I understand your point. But for a 9 month old camper??? Simple, they did not fasten (correctly or not at all) the underlayment. That I would think from being a A&P +Pilot, that it is a structural component and they should correct it.... Thanks for the input.

[JRTJH]

Sorry, my problem is with the underlayment of the TPO roof membrane. and I understand your point. But for a 9 month old camper??? Simple, they did not fasten (correctly or not at all) the underlayment. That I would think from being a A&P +Pilot, that it is a structural component and they should correct it.... Thanks for the input.

A brand-new, off-the-line Cessna 172S Skyhawk has a manufacturer's suggested retail price (MSRP) of $398,000. A brand new Outback 210URS has a manufacturer's suggested retail price (MSRP) of $30,984, and often sells for less than $25,000. Hardly an "apples to apples" comparison.

That said, as long as people like you and I are standing in line with approved credit (or in rare cases, cash in hand) ready to buy the next one delivered from the factory, Keystone isn't about to change one stitch of their "cash cow profit machine".... Honestly, why should they, they can't make them as fast as they're selling them......

[Gumby52]

Okay, checked my base plate for the propane tanks today. Seems good and solid, just need to clean up a little and touch up with rustoleum rust-remover. Ill take care of that when I clean and touch up the wd hangers.

Gary

[JohnP]

I have a Passport 199ml and had the same setup as you have. I took everything off and had a custom aluminum plate made to hold the tanks , batteries and generator. You are right about the undersized bolts to anchor the plate down. Cheaply done as alot of stuff on the trailer , I am slowly improving on most things from factory install. A little at a time.

[rabbit59]

Those bolts are cheap, self tapping, around 1/4" bolts....no grade at all. So Gumby52, take and rock 60 lbs front and back and what are those skinny bolts going to do? Crack and break!! That's what....if I were you.....I'd replace them. Dont say you weren't warned!! Good luck!!

[rabbit59]

Nice JohnP....looks great!!

[Capt Don]

GUMBY52
Looks can be very deceiving. I would suggest backing out each screw and checking condition for corrosion. One or more may just snap off. Install 4 new screws (they do not cost a lot) & add some anti corrosion compound. Or go ahead and U bolt them.

[rabbit59]

Capt Don....Agree!! after seeing mine break, and my brother in law had one broken, I'd pull them all, drill and tap bigger, and put grade 8 bolts in....fix it right or you might regret it later....something like propane is nothing to mess with.

[JRTJH]

This is not criticism, anything you do to improve the attachment is better than what was used and failed. That said, from an engineering perspective, a grade 8 bolt must have a specific number of threads engaged "in the nut" to meet strength requirements. If you "tapped threads" in a 1/8" mild steel A-frame member, you may not have sufficient strength to hold the "grade 8 bolt" without failure of the threads or the ability to hold the bolt without loosening...

Typically, a 5/16" nut is at least 1/4" thick and most grade 8 nuts are at least 50% thicker than that minimum. There simply isn't enough "thickness in the A-frame channel to hold a large grade 8 bolt securely (without stripping out).

Unless you've installed nuts "on the underside of the grade 8 bolt" (I'd suggest lock washers as well) you may be "working with a false sense of security and a pending failure".

As I said, don't consider this as criticism, what you did has improved the tray security over what the factory did, but unless you've got nuts and lock washers under the tray/A-frame assembly, the threads in that mild steel A-frame probably won't hold a 1/4" or 5/16" grade 8 bolt "indefinitely"...….

[rabbit59]

JRTJH....understand what your saying. The frame is probably 3/16 " thick. A little more than 1/8 I'm guessing. The reason I went with grade is the bolt remaining above frame. I believe the tray allowed them to flex front and back, thus cracking ultimately. When you start and stop with minimum 60 lbs flexing above, I think that's the issue. Yes, the best fix is tacking tray front and rear to frame. They welded battery shelf. Why they didnt at least tack this tray is beyond me???

[JRTJH]

JRTJH....understand what your saying. The frame is probably 3/16 " thick. A little more than 1/8 I'm guessing. The reason I went with grade is the bolt remaining above frame. I believe the tray allowed them to flex front and back, thus cracking ultimately. When you start and stop with minimum 60 lbs flexing above, I think that's the issue. Yes, the best fix is tacking tray front and rear to frame. They welded battery shelf. Why they didnt at least tack this tray is beyond me???

The reason they didn't "tack weld" the tray in one position is because the "engineers at Keystone" KNOW that in more than 80% of the hitch installations, the propane tray will need to be moved to allow clearance for the hitch attachments. If "they" tack welded the tray in place, everyone would be raising hell because "my dealer had to cut the tray off the damn tongue to install the hitch, What were those idiots at Keystone thinking when they welded the tray in place?"...…. On the other hand, if they installed them "permanently" with 5/16" bolts, think of all the "extra holes that weaken the tongue assembly" that would be "drilled by Keystone, knowing they were in the wrong place"... What were those "engineers at Keystone" thinking ??? Certainly, not that dealerships would "take shortcuts" and leave temporary hardware in place …..

Maybe, if Keystone "just threw the propane assembly in the front passthrough" and made it clear to the dealerships that THEY were responsible to do the job right when they remove the assembly from the passthrough ????

DEALERSHIPS (not Keystone) are to blame for trailers leaving their lot with "temporary hardware in permanent applications".... DEALERSHIPS (not Keystone) are responsible to install the hitch AND the moved propane assembly properly. It ain't happening and it ain't the "engineers at Keystone" that are to blame.

PS: They (Keystone) also doesn't install the towel bars and TP rack "where they think you want it".. Lazy workers on the line, "Just throw them in a sack under the bathroom sink"....

PSS: If you tack weld the tray in place, consider that you can't easily change to an "improved hitch" if the hitch doesn't "fit in the space you left for the hitch"... So, if you weld it in place, drill "extra large holes in the frame (weakening the A-frame) you may be making for a "bad situation" down the line when you "mod your trailer with an improved hitch"....

[skids]

Now that you mention it, I don't like additional holes in the frame. I would prefer a couple of squareish u-bolts around the frame. I wonder how my propane assembly is mounted...

[JRTJH]

Now that you mention it, I don't like additional holes in the frame. I would prefer a couple of squareish u-bolts around the frame. I wonder how my propane assembly is mounted...

I have two utility trailers, both with storage boxes mounted on the tongue. One, the dual axle trailer I use to transport heavy items like my diesel tractor, is attached with 4 U bolts around the tongue. THERE ARE NO holes drilled in the tongue anywhere.

The other, a "light duty aluminum single axle trailer" I use to transport the slingshot behind the fifth wheel. GVW is 3000 pounds, dry weight is 760 pounds. The tongue is all aluminum rectangle tubing. I'd be extremely reluctant to drill any holes in the tongue AT ALL !!!! The box mounted on that tongue is also held in place with U bolts, inserted with the "U" under the tongue, through two holes in the floor of the box with a strap over the U bolt, then lock washers and nuts, followed with a liberal covering of the entire attachment point with silicone to seal the entire U bolt area (inside the box)…

None of my trailers have any "extra holes" drilled in the tongue. Admittedly, there are some on the steel trailer, placed there to attach the tongue jack, the breakaway switch, the wiring guides, etc. There are NO voluntary holes drilled by me, anywhere on the "weight carrying part of any trailer I own.

That includes the fifth wheel. My "vinyl post cover sewer hose box" is mounted with "HD clamps on the I beam, not holes drilled in the I beam.

[QCMan]

I might be a little late on this one but mine had the same issue. I don't know your build date but mine was built 10/30/19 and had three snapped bolts holding the tank tray in place. I do not trust others to set up my wdh/sway control as the last time I allowed that to happen the tongue had eight extra holes where they kept "adjusting" the brackets. Did not discover this until I sold it and removed the brackets to install on the new unit.
Managed to get the stumps of the snapped screws out with little effort as they had not rusted yet. Needed them out to get them out of the area that the tray needed to be for my hitch setup. Drilled the holes from the screws just one drill size bigger to get clean material and filled them with jb weld and relocated the tray using the 1/4" self drilling and tapping screws (three per side) used to assemble carport structures with the rubber washer under them. OP's issue was extreme with the whole assembly falling off. I knew at delivery the tray was loose but still marginally held in place. 20 miles or so to home on 30 mph roads caused no such issue. Holes in the tongue do not scare me unless they are at or very close to a corner as I don't think anything I can do will bend a 6" box channel and the last tt was only 500 pounds lighter and had a 4" tongue with swiss cheese holes where they messed up installing the hitch and that never bent.
The factory might be better off using bug zip ties to hold it on until the hitch hardware is installed.