First retirement trip trouble

[JimJan]

Well we just retired and made it to Florida. Had stored our camper since October here. Had plugged into 120 volts the whole time. Pulled the cover off and spent the night, all good. In morning showered using water pump but later in day 12 volt lights got dim. Checked batteries (2) and at 11.6 volts.
120 volt from breaker to converter is okay. Pulled battery cables and measured 9 volts DC and jumped to 13 volts back and forth.
With battery cables off I charged the batteries most of day and now at 12.7 volts.
So, bad converter?
Thanks for some input so I can go to RV store for fix.

[sourdough]

Did you go almost 5 months with the batteries running on the converter and not check water? Did you when you arrived?

[JimJan]

Whoops, I did not, will go have a look.

[JimJan]

Okay, water level was down 1/4" took 1.5 pints for the 2 batteries.
Will that hurt the converter?

[sourdough]

How old are the batteries? What type/size? I've never had a bad converter but have had bad batteries that do what you describe. Maybe take the batteries in and have them load tested?

The reading from the converter, if taken correctly, makes me wonder about the output, maintenance charge mode etc. But, going back to my experiences, I would surely have those batteries checked first. No need to get another converter to fight with faulty batteries.

[flybouy]

Like Danny stated, get the batteries load tested. My guess is they are done.

Edit: also did you fill batteries with tap water? Using anything other than distilled water will damage the battery.

[JimJan]

The batteries are 1.5 years old.
They are new when purchased the used camper.
Just normal 500 cca batteries.
I'll take to an auto store to load test tomorrow.
But why wouldn't the converter put out 12+ volts without batteries hooked up?

[JimJan]

Used purified bottled water.

[sourdough]

Here is a link for a little more insight;

https://www.trailerlife.com/tech/diy/power-up/

Realize that the converter (newer ones) have variable outputs to maintain the battery...not just "charge it up" and keep charging. At that point obviously it can't just keep pumping out 14vdc or it will cook the batteries - especially if they are left for months without replenishing the fluid level.

I would check those batteries which are what I suspect given the mtce. and past history. A new converter will not fix poor/marginal batteries but will be an opportunity to spend some "excess" money. :D

[JimJan]

Thanks for the article. It's a good read.
Will start with battery load test, if okay then see if the converter has fuses.
Okay, if batteries are bad what type to replace with?
Only have room for 2.

[flybouy]

Thanks for the article. It's a good read.
Will start with battery load test, if okay then see if the converter has fuses.
Okay, if batteries are bad what type to replace with?
Only have room for 2.

First question is how do you use your camper? Always connected to shore power? Sometimes "dry camp" with no shore power? Always camp "off the grid" and never or rarely have shore power?

[Roscommon48]

read the thread I just started on batteries. get 2- 6 volt batteries if you need new ones. And use 'distilled' water.

[JimJan]

We always camp connected to shore power. Plan to take longer trips and live in it for months now instead of just a week though.

[ctbruce]

If you are not dry camping, 1 12v battery group 27 is plenty

[JimJan]

read the thread I just started on batteries. get 2- 6 volt batteries if you need new ones. And use 'distilled' water.

Another good article, thanks.
I started looking for 6 volt batteries around 200 AH but cannot locate any in case my batteries are bad. Auto parts stores seam to have low AH ratings.
Any ideas, perhaps Camping World? There in one close by.

[flybouy]

What Chip recommended, anything more is overkill and a waste of money.

[travelin texans]

Sams or Costco sell both the 6 volt golf cart & true deep cycle group 27 12 volt batteries that I think would be much cheaper than CW.
Six months ago bought 6 - 6 volt gc batteries at Sam's for my golf cart at $89 each & bought 2 group 27s 2+ years ago for the 5th wheel about $150 each, all were Duracell brand.

[FlyingAroundRV]

Do you have an EMS on your trailer?
You mentioned that you left it for an extended period (unattended?) in FL. I grew up in south Florida and they get a lot of thunderstorms. Also in my experience with our TT, the converter is sensitive to AC power issues. A lightning zap on an unprotected trailer could (IMO) have fried your converter.

[JimJan]

Took my Excide wet cell batteries to Interstate to check out. Said the batteries were at 80% charged and if put on 3 amp charge for a day will be fine. They put them on load and held okay. So no new batteries!
So I pulled the converter out and wired it to a battery direct. 12.56 volts without the converter, plugged in the converter and no change. Fuses on back were both good. Ordered a new 75 amp converter from the local CW.
Until then I have the batteries on a 3 amp charge for a day or so.
Were leaving the area in a couple days so should be good before we leave to the next location.
Let you know when all reinstalled.
Thanks for all the help.

[JimJan]

Do you have an EMS on your trailer?
You mentioned that you left it for an extended period (unattended?) in FL. I grew up in south Florida and they get a lot of thunderstorms. Also in my experience with our TT, the converter is sensitive to AC power issues. A lightning zap on an unprotected trailer could (IMO) have fried your converter.

Yes we have a hard wired EMS but it could be the problem. Odd it held the batteries pretty good for 4 months and we were able to run lights, water pump , furnace, etc. for an afternoon and overnight before the lights slowly got less bright.

[sourdough]

By your readings it does appear that your converter may be defective. I was looking at the age of the batteries and thinking the same of the converter. Looking a little deeper it looks like the converter is about 8 years old so it may have failed. A power surge or other anomaly can do that.

You said you have an "EMS"; what kind is it? Is it a true EMS or just a "surge protector"? Just wondering as previously mentioned if a surge of some kind may have damaged the converter due to inadequate protection?

[JimJan]

The EMS is a Progressive and hard wired, mounted behind the breaker panel.
Actually, I can remember our lights being dim on past weekend camping. Wonder if the damage was done prior to installing the EMS.
Well we should be good soon and not depend on the battery charger.

[JimJan]

Batteries seemed fully charged last night as measured 13.6 volts with charger on 15 amps. switched to 3 amps for overnight. Still showed 13.6 amps
Cold night for north Florida so heater ran 10 min. on and 10 min. off when I awoke at 4am to an odd heater fan noise.
Went outside and charger was in "Maintain" mode. My meter measured 9.6 volts!
Switched to 15 amps on charger and watched my meter climb to 12.6 volts (4am).
Checked this morning and charger was showing "maintain" again and meter showed 11.9 volts.
Thinking the charger not working right?
Could the furnace drop the batteries volts that fast?

[flybouy]

Batteries seemed fully charged last night as measured 13.6 volts with charger on 15 amps. switched to 3 amps for overnight. Still showed 13.6 amps
Cold night for north Florida so heater ran 10 min. on and 10 min. off when I awoke at 4am to an odd heater fan noise.
Went outside and charger was in "Maintain" mode. My meter measured 9.6 volts!
Switched to 15 amps on charger and watched my meter climb to 12.6 volts (4am).
Checked this morning and charger was showing "maintain" again and meter showed 11.9 volts.
Thinking the charger not working right?
Could the furnace drop the batteries volts that fast?

The furnace fan is the largest draw on the 12v system. Why did you turn the charger down overnight when the highest load would be drawing power for the most amount of time?

[JimJan]

Guess I thought the batteries would handle the load. Was concerned the constant 15 amps would damage the batteries. Interstate said 3 amp charge was better for the batteries also. In hind sight they probably meant when not connected to the camper.:facepalm:
Well I picked up a DC Amp meter to see what is going on.
Disconnected the charger and batteries are at 12.65 volts. Amp draw with no 12 volt lights or other items, except for the radio (DW), is 1.4 amps.
With furnace running was 8.1 amp - fan only was 7.5 amps.
Then after 10 minutes (1.4 amps) batteries are at 12.41 volts.
All sounds reasonable to me.
After 1 hour the batteries are at: 12.36 volts and 1.24 amps.
So I will be heading this afternoon to pick up the new converter, thoughts on needing new batteries?

[JRTJH]

You keep "measuring the voltage AT THE BATTERY.... Have you yet disconnected the batteries and measured the converter output AT THE BATTERY CABLE CONNECTOR ?????

The WFCO troubleshooting guide (in the WFCO owner's manual) gives specific troubleshooting steps to test the converter/charger. With the batteries DISCONNECTED (and on shore power) the voltage AT THE CABLE CONNECTORS should be 13.4 - 13.6VDC.

In some WFCO owner's manuals, the above test is done at the converter DC fuse panel (by removing the reverse polarity fuses (which disconnects the battery bank) but it's easier to test the "converter AND the wiring to the battery" in one step. If there's a problem, then separate the wiring from the converter "at the fuse panel"....

I'd suggest you check your converter output to be sure it's "stepping through the charge phasing" properly before chasing any "long shots at the battery bank".

Using a "stand alone charger" will "defeat the converter/charger as the WFCO "senses voltage "on the battery line" to regulate the output. So, if you put an "artificial battery" (stand alone charger) connected to the battery, you effectively "trick the WFCO into believing the battery is fully charged". That makes your entire system "work in jeopardy" with no regulation of any DC source (since the stand alone charger is also sensing any WFCO output and regulating its "automatic output" based on the inaccurate voltage sensing of the WFCO....

In other words, only use the WFCO on your system and check its output to make sure it's working properly using the troubleshooting steps in the WFCO owner's manual....

Right now, I'd suspect you're making assumptions based on inaccurate measurements and mis-applied charging conditons…...

[flybouy]

Guess I thought the batteries would handle the load. Was concerned the constant 15 amps would damage the batteries. Interstate said 3 amp charge was better for the batteries also. In hind sight they probably meant when not connected to the camper.:facepalm:
Well I picked up a DC Amp meter to see what is going on.
Disconnected the charger and batteries are at 12.65 volts. Amp draw with no 12 volt lights or other items, except for the radio (DW), is 1.4 amps.
With furnace running was 8.1 amp - fan only was 7.5 amps.
Then after 10 minutes (1.4 amps) batteries are at 12.41 volts.
All sounds reasonable to me.
After 1 hour the batteries are at: 12.36 volts and 1.24 amps.
So I will be heading this afternoon to pick up the new converter, thoughts on needing new batteries?

12.6 v is about 85% charge, 12.36 is about 75% charge. This link may help you understand https://www.energymatters.com.au/components/battery-voltage-discharge/

The only sure way to check the "true state of charge" is to buy a simple battery hydrometer ($5-$10) and check the specific gravity of the electrolyte. A load test IF the person doing the test is knowledgeable is good, or at the least charge it fully, disconnect and let it set for an hour and see how much of a voltage drop there is with no load. That will tell you if the battery is only taking a "top charge"

The only spec you gave on your batteries was the "cold cranking amps". This sounds like a standard car battery or a "marine combination deep cycle starting" battery. Neither one is very good for use in a camper without shore power. You stated the batteries are about 18 months old (if well maintained they should last 2-3 years) however, leaving them unattended on a charger, resulting in a low electrolyte situation damaged the batteries. Filling with water that's not distilled and then discharging them severely again has only damaged them further. The question is how bad.

As suggested earlier, if your camping consists of having shore power then I'd recommend getting one deep cycle battery, the larger the better. I use a 105 ah 12v from NAPA and has served me well under these conditions. It works well to occasionally open slides, run the lp fridge, etc while packing up for a trip. Other options such as installing 2 6v batteries would be a waste of money and weight for they way I use the camper.
JMHO

[JimJan]

You keep "measuring the voltage AT THE BATTERY.... Have you yet disconnected the batteries and measured the converter output AT THE BATTERY CABLE CONNECTOR ?????

The WFCO troubleshooting guide (in the WFCO owner's manual) gives specific troubleshooting steps to test the converter/charger. With the batteries DISCONNECTED (and on shore power) the voltage AT THE CABLE CONNECTORS should be 13.4 - 13.6VDC.

In some WFCO owner's manuals, the above test is done at the converter DC fuse panel (by removing the reverse polarity fuses (which disconnects the battery bank) but it's easier to test the "converter AND the wiring to the battery" in one step. If there's a problem, then separate the wiring from the converter "at the fuse panel"....

I'd suggest you check your converter output to be sure it's "stepping through the charge phasing" properly before chasing any "long shots at the battery bank".

Using a "stand alone charger" will "defeat the converter/charger as the WFCO "senses voltage "on the battery line" to regulate the output. So, if you put an "artificial battery" (stand alone charger) connected to the battery, you effectively "trick the WFCO into believing the battery is fully charged". That makes your entire system "work in jeopardy" with no regulation of any DC source (since the stand alone charger is also sensing any WFCO output and regulating its "automatic output" based on the inaccurate voltage sensing of the WFCO....

In other words, only use the WFCO on your system and check its output to make sure it's working properly using the troubleshooting steps in the WFCO owner's manual....

Right now, I'd suspect you're making assumptions based on inaccurate measurements and mis-applied charging conditons…...

Thanks for the advice, I plugged in the converter with no camper connection, output was 13.46 volts.
I reconnected it to the camper and removed the cables at the batteries. Turned on breaker and the output jumps erratically from 9.3 to 13.3 volts and most other readings in between.
Ideas?

[JimJan]

Okay , since my slow typing the last response I rechecked the output on the loose cables by the battery. It is a steady 9.6 and in a few minutes is steady at 10.4 volts.

[JRTJH]

9.6 VDC is too low. There is an issue either at the converter or in the wiring from the converter to the battery cable terminals.

If the battery was COMPLETLEY disconnected from the battery cables, leave them disconnected, go inside the trailer and remove the reverse polarity fuses on the DC fuse panel and check the converter output at the DC connection lugs on the DC fuse panel.

The reverse polarity fuses are the two (probably red fuses) located just to the left of the vertical row of fuses on the DC panel. The lugs are the two "large connections" where the converter is connected to the DC panel.

With the reverse polarity fuses pulled, you are effectively removing ALL DC wiring except inside the fuse panel/converter assembly.

Measure the voltage at the lugs on the fuse panel. It should be 13.4-13.6 VDC. If not, the converter/charger is bad (or you have a corroded/loose connector on the converter or at the two lugs).

If that voltage is correct at the lugs, then you have a wiring problem "from the DC Lugs to the battery cable connectors. It may be a bad connection, a broken wire, a corroded twist connector, a screw through a cable, a bad DC mini-breaker (usually located where the battery cables split "just behind the battery") or possibly another issue....

With the voltage reading at the battery cable connectors, the next step is to measure the voltage "at the lugs" (which is the "source of DC power" to the trailer wiring system)

[JimJan]

Okay, there are no reverse polarity fuses inside the breaker panel around the incoming lugs or the series of 12 volt fuses. There are 2 red ones on the back of the converter though.
Before I pull those I rechecked the output at the battery compartment (they are still not connected to anything) an now read at 13.4 volts.
Nothing was touched after the 9.6 and 10.4 earlier readings.
Should I pull the fuses on the converter ?

[JRTJH]

No need to pull the fuses on the fuse panel. The reverse polarity fuses on "newer models" are on the fuse panel, on some "free standing converter/chargers" they are located on the converter (as yours appear to be). If you pulled them and the voltage at the lugs on the fuse panel is 13.4-13.6 VDC, then you have a wiring issue, the converter/charger is good.

I'd start back at the front of the trailer, follow the POS battery cable. It will lead you to either two or three "little boxes" with connections on the top. Those are the "DC Mini Breakers" and are used to protect the trailer wiring from "excess battery amperage caused by a short in a wire or component". They are "notorious for corroding" and causing problems.

They come in various amperage ratings and the amperage is stamped on the metal case or if the case is plastic, it's on a "ink stamp" on the bottom of the component. You'll need to remove the screws to turn it over and see the amperage rating. My guess would be one is 30 amps and one is either 40 amps or 50 amps. THOSE ARE GUESSES, so verify what's on the actual device.

They look like this:

[JimJan]

Okay, found 3 mini breakers. First cable from battery is a 30 amp, it is connected to the "bat" , there is a heavy gauge from the bat to a second mini breaker "bat" , a 50 amp and from there thru a lighter gauge to a 30 amp.
Took all apart and all were clean. Replaced and tightened.
Turned converter on and have jumping voltage readings from 9 to 12 or so. After several minutes checked volts at panel lugs 10.4 volts, again in several more minutes lugs are at 12.4 volts.
The cables at the batteries are still not connected to anything and read same 12.4 volts.
I sure appreciate your help but feel bad for all the time you are using.
Now about 10 minutes later the lugs read 12.63 volts , still slowly climbing.

[JRTJH]

If the reverse polarity fuses are out and the voltage is 13.4-13.6 VDC at the lugs (and is steady) and you install the reverse polarity fuses (apply power to the battery wiring from the lugs to the battery cable clamps) and the voltage drops to 10.4 - 12.4VDC, I think you have a problem in the wiring from the DC fuse panel to the battery cables.

If the voltage at the fuse panel lugs (with the reverse polarity fuses removed) is less than 13.4 VDC or is varying, then the converter is bad.

On the three "mini-breakers" is the voltage on each terminal to ground the same on each breaker? If so, the internals of that breaker are OK. If there's a difference in voltage between the "input terminal/ground" and the "output terminal/ground" on the same breaker box, there is a "high resistance/corroded contact" in that box, even if the terminals are clean and tight. Remember, you're working backwards, from the converter to the battery with these voltage measurements, not from the battery to the trailer wiring, so the "input" will be closest to the converter. Once the battery is connected and shore power disconnected, the "input" will change to the terminal connected to the battery side. For these tests, "input" is closest to the converter.....

Looking at my photo above, there is a bright steel and a brass colored steel terminal on each mini-breaker. The voltage from each to ground should be identical.

Note: The voltage on each breaker should also be the same 13.4 VDC.

But, going back to the start of this post, if there is "varying voltage" on the fuse panel lugs with the reverse polarity fuses removed, the converter is bad and needs to be replaced.

[JimJan]

JRTJH. Thank you for your help! Using all the previous posts I believe the converter is bad.
Picked up a replacement 75 amp converter and installed.
At last a good solid 13.4 volt output!
Amp draw is 12.2 amps as I imagine the batteries are being charged from 12.4 volts.
Much appreciated everyone's help, now we can get back to enjoying our retirement.
Jim

[JRTJH]

That's good news !!! It's always nice when things come together and work correctly

[sonofcy]

Well we just retired and made it to Florida. Had stored our camper since October here. Had plugged into 120 volts the whole time. Pulled the cover off and spent the night, all good. In morning showered using water pump but later in day 12 volt lights got dim. Checked batteries (2) and at 11.6 volts.
120 volt from breaker to converter is okay. Pulled battery cables and measured 9 volts DC and jumped to 13 volts back and forth.
With battery cables off I charged the batteries most of day and now at 12.7 volts.
So, bad converter?
Thanks for some input so I can go to RV store for fix.

The batteries are dead. Either buy real deep cycle like Trojan T105's that will last for a few years as long as you don't discharge them more than 50%. Get a Trimetric TM-2030-RV or equivalent to determine the 50%

[blubuckaroo]

I'm new to some of this too.
Bought a new Pathfinder last year it has a built in converter, and two of the cheap RV/Marine batteries, so many new trailers are sold with. (not deep cycle)

I have been leaving the trailer plugged in while stored. Is that a good idea?
The batteries have a label on the top that covers the caps. It says "Removal voids warranty." For that reason, I haven't checked the electrolyte level.

Our other "little old camp trailer" is much simpler. It has one group 27 true deep cycle battery with a pair of solar panels. It has no converter, so I put the battery in the garage on a battery tender for the off months.

I need advice about leaving our new trailer on the converter. I plan to replace the cheap RV/Marine batteries, but I sure don't want to ruin the deep cycle batteries I replace them with.

[CaptnJohn]

If you have a residential fridge I’d have 2 batteries, I use group 31.