Next problem - Roof leak?

[Keystoned]

I am getting so pissed by what I am finding. I have a running list that is wearing me down but just noticed the bed was wet. We had rain and snow the day before so I'm thinking a leak near where the roof meets the cap. I didn't actually see the water path but there is evidence that this has been going on for a while. The wrapping has come loose and torn around some of the 'wood' pieces above the bed and closet.
So looking on the roof it appears a repair had been attempted before, with silicone! The PO swears up and down there were no leaks and everything worked and I'm calling BS. They are either ignorant, dumb or lying, maybe all 3.
Anyway. The silicone points to that joint and other areas where it was used.
Advice on repair is appreciated...

[sourdough]

The PO made a mistake with the silicone like many do, and, doesn't sound like he fixed anything.

I'd get the silicone off (it's not easy and takes some time) then inspect those seals CLOSELY. The smallest pin hole, tiny crack, lifting along an edge...anything, can let water inside and that appears to be what you are experiencing. If the existing sealant is bad or deteriorated remove it with a plastic spatula/putty knife (not metal - it will cut the membrane). Clean all the areas with alcohol thoroughly and let dry. Apply a new bead (liberally) of Dicor self leveling sealant made for your roof material (TPO/EPDM). It will stick to the old sealant if clean and self levels/smooths out. Inspect the entire roof, seams, caulk lines, around the windows...everything to make sure all sealants are good. If it has been left out in the elements since 2015 and not taken care of there's no telling what you will find. Good luck. Oh, my 2014 has EPDM not sure what the 2015 will have.

[roadglide]

It’s very possible if that joint is leaking water air can funnel into that loose area and lift the rubber roof while towing.

[Northofu1]

Search youtube for videos on leak detection or repair and dicor replacement.
If it seems too labour intensive or you're not comfortable doing it, check out RV armor.
Good luck Dan

[Keystoned]

Thanks all, I usually am up for challenges but often need some encouragement and helpful tips like these.
How do I tell what kind of material my roof is?
The brochure says one piece tpo roof, but I am leary of that info.
Here is an example of the fine work, lol

[Badbart56]

Not a professional opinion by any means, but that looks like a failed attempt at a roof repair that SHOULD have been done by a professional. I think you're in over your head personally. Did you buy from a dealer?

[Keystoned]

Bought from a neighbor, but a stranger. Swore up and down everything worked and no leaks capped by a no BS handshake. Yes, slime do slither about...
As long as I am able, I will not pay $100/hr for stuff I can do. But I appreciate your input and hope you are wrong. Maybe I'll consult another place here that does not charge as much per hour...

[Weekender 1]

Looks like EDPM to me.
Roof to cap seal I take it.
Silicone will never work so that must be removed and that should be easy.
Dicor self leveling would be the fix some will suggest to replace the silicon.
But not having it where I could see it, the amount used brings ????'s
I might suggest getting 6-12" wide eternabond and sealing this whole seam, then the dicor on its edges.
But that MY opinion, other will say once you do that you'll never be able to access underneath it. But the leak maybe fixed forever.
Again MY opinion dicor is temporary, mine new I did both ends like my suggestion. I dont want to wait for a leak, I wanted to stop it from happening and if I ever need to get underneath, I'll cut the rubber roof, remove whatever problem and put in a new piece and seal it the same way.

[roadglide]

Nothing will stick to silicone that is made for a rubber roof. I would scrape as much silicone off as possible let area dry out . I used thin sheets of aluminum 4 x 8 cut them to fit along the front seem . I think 10 inch by 8 ft 1/8 aluminum strip pre drilled holes I went ever 4 inches useing SS 1 in screws I ordered dicor caulk Sealing and exing the bottom plate . Silicone Has to be off the cap before the dicor will stick .

[roadglide]

Nothing will stick to silicone that is made for a rubber roof. I would scrape as much silicone off as possible let area dry out . I used thin sheets of aluminum 4 x 8 cut them to fit along the front seem . I think 10 inch by 8 ft 1/8 aluminum strip pre drilled holes I went ever 4 inches useing SS 1 in screws I ordered dicor caulk Sealing and exing the bottom plate . Silicone Has to be off the cap before the dicor will stick .

Looking at again I would cut all that back and use the aluminum technique . I have don’t it with good Success.

[sourdough]

The PO made a mistake with the silicone like many do, and, doesn't sound like he fixed anything.

I'd get the silicone off (it's not easy and takes some time) then inspect those seals CLOSELY. The smallest pin hole, tiny crack, lifting along an edge...anything, can let water inside and that appears to be what you are experiencing. If the existing sealant is bad or deteriorated remove it with a plastic spatula/putty knife (not metal - it will cut the membrane). Clean all the areas with alcohol thoroughly and let dry. Apply a new bead (liberally) of Dicor self leveling sealant made for your roof material (TPO/EPDM). It will stick to the old sealant if clean and self levels/smooths out. Inspect the entire roof, seams, caulk lines, around the windows...everything to make sure all sealants are good. If it has been left out in the elements since 2015 and not taken care of there's no telling what you will find. Good luck. Oh, my 2014 has EPDM not sure what the 2015 will have.


Roadglide brings up a good point that I failed to clarify. The highlighted statement above was assuming all silicone was removed which I failed to state. As Roadglide said, the Dicor will not stick to the silicone if left in place and just "cleaned".

[wiredgeorge]

Bought from a neighbor, but a stranger. Swore up and down everything worked and no leaks capped by a no BS handshake. Yes, slime do slither about...
As long as I am able, I will not pay $100/hr for stuff I can do. But I appreciate your input and hope you are wrong. Maybe I'll consult another place here that does not charge as much per hour...

I am a professional in the motorcycle world and when someone tells me "The previous owner told me"... well, same thing. They were selling and you are buying and many sellers are folks with no character or moral compass.

Eternabond was mentioned. I would try and get the silicon up before putting the Eternabond on if you go that route. Found this on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Brf7Hcx4nr0

Guy in the video likely had less patience than me even (hard to ever find someone with less). He likely should have cleaned the area and let the remover sit for awhile rather than start poking at it immediately. The website for the product may give a customer support number if the directions weren't clear. I would also ask them how the stuff reacts with your type of roof and do a SMALL test spot as it might not be good for your roof.

[Weekender 1]

Any way he chooses as a solution, the silicone must be removed. I dont think anyone said otherwise. And that should be pretty easy since it doesnt stick well.

[Keystoned]

All good suggestions, I appreciate them. This will become priority 1 with silicon removal then go from there. I can use a tarp when weather moves in

[JRTJH]

First, I've NEVER seen a beige EPDM roof on any Outback. The EPDM roofing material used on Outback trailers is white. The last EPDM membrane I've seen on any Outback is in model year 2012, although I heard that some trailers were produced in 2013 with EPDM. All of the 2014 and newer Outbacks that I've seen have all had TPO membrane on the roof. The ONLY beige roofing material I've ever seen is TPO.

That said, you can pull the plastic molding from the bathroom exhaust fan (4 #2 Roberts screws) and you'll find the roofing material stapled to the wooden framing for the exhaust fan. Pull the couple of staples and you can see the back side of the roofing membrane. If the membrane is BLACK with a white coating on top, it's EPDM. If the roofing membrane is the same color on both sides, it's TPO. Easy to check and be certain what is on your trailer, however, there is virtually no difference in the sealant used for EPDM and TPO membrane patching. Both can be used, but the EPDM sealant has a "tad bit more dispersant agent" in it. That is the agent that keeps the sealant "pliable and flowing" from the tube. As soon as it is applied, the dispersant begins to evaporate. The additional dispersant can (not will) cause the TPO membrane to swell slightly. Once the dispersant evaporates, there is no difference in the two sealants. However, the TPO membrane "MIGHT" (not will) bulge and/or "ripple" from the additional dispersant.

The "rippling" is cosmetic only, there is NO damage to the membrane function, so there is no reason to "fear" using either type of DICOR sealant on either type of membrane.....

That said, if the silicone was applied over the DICOR sealant, then using a plastic scraper you can remove all of the silicone by removing the DICOR under it. Then, apply a fresh layer of DICOR (or Alpha-Systems) self leveling sealant, being sure to apply the new coating to FULLY cover the old coating and also overlap the edge margins by about 3/8" or 1/2" on all edges. That overlapping will provide for a fresh adhesion beyond where the old layer was applied. This is one time when "more is better". As the sealant cures, it will flatten and level itself to fully cover all of the old sealant surface PLUS overlap to fresh areas, completely sealing the entire surface.

If there is no mechanical damage to the area, the above should be all you need to do. If there is damage to the TPO membrane or to the "joiner strip" between the roof and the front cap, then you'll need to work on that before applying any sealant. My guess is that if the screws are intact, tight and there is no visible damage, then the joiner strip "should" be OK. In that case, all you'll need to do is spend "lots of sweat-equity" in removing all the old silicone, a portion of the underlying DICOR sealant (so you know all the silicone is removed) and then clean thoroughly, apply new sealant and wait for it to cure (48 hours or so)… However, it will be "sticky and roll under your finger" for probably 6-8 weeks after application...

[CedarCreekWoody]

I strongly urge you to consider Eternabond. It is powerful stuff and easy to apply (after proper surface preparation. )

[JRTJH]

I strongly urge you to consider Eternabond. It is powerful stuff and easy to apply (after proper surface preparation. )

Eternabond won't stick to the silicone that is currently on the roof. ANYTHING he does will first require cleaning ALL of the silicone off the roof structure. At this point, "slapping a strip of eternabond over what's currently there" will just make for a "goatroping event" while he's trying to "catch a greased pig at the rodeo"... Yes, that's exactly the kind of frustration he'll face if he "cleans the surface and uses that "powerful stuff that's easy to apply"..... As soon as a bit of moisture works up from below the surface, the eternabond is going to release adhesion at the silicone surface and he's going to "start all over again with wet trim boards inside his trailer....

[CedarCreekWoody]

Hence the "after proper surface preparation " comment.

[chuckster57]

Hence the "after proper surface preparation " comment.

Not here to poke, prod or argue, but after proper surface preparation, I would think the factory original install would be best. I’ve done my share of roof repairs and Eternabond is the last “fix” considered. Once it’s applied, it doesn’t lend itself to repairs. You can apply several tubes of Dicor or Alpha systems sealant and it will all come back off with little effort compared to the tape.

To each their own, but after years in the RV business, when I see eternabond and a leak in the same area, I cringe.

[JRTJH]

Hence the "after proper surface preparation " comment.

As Chuck just stated, anyone who has been around RV's for any length of time AND has had to repair a roof with eternabond on it will tell you that using that crap (thinking it's a good way to fix a roof quickly and easily) will make the subsequent repairs significantly more difficult.

Put another way, getting eternabond off a roof to fix a leak will make even a preacher cuss....

From a marketing perspective, eternabond sounds "real good" but from a repair perspective, it's the VERY LAST DAMN THING you want to be working with "after it's stuck on a roof by someone who believes the marketing BS".....

[CedarCreekWoody]

You are right, it is tough stuff. But it doesn't open back up like dicor tends to do after a few months. I've been pleased with it, but to each his own.

[sourdough]

As Chuck just stated, anyone who has been around RV's for any length of time AND has had to repair a roof with eternabond on it will tell you that using that crap (thinking it's a good way to fix a roof quickly and easily) will make the subsequent repairs significantly more difficult.

Put another way, getting eternabond off a roof to fix a leak will make even a preacher cuss....

From a marketing perspective, eternabond sounds "real good" but from a repair perspective, it's the VERY LAST DAMN THING you want to be working with "after it's stuck on a roof by someone who believes the marketing BS".....


^^^^^These guys know of what they speak. Eternabond has a place but it is not for a "first shot" attempt at repairs. It will be your last and then what is required to "undo" it won't be fun, clean or inexpensive.

[sourdough]

You are right, it is tough stuff. But it doesn't open back up like dicor tends to do after a few months. I've been pleased with it, but to each his own.


Applied properly I've never had Dicor "open up" after a few months...ever. In fact, the applications I've made over the last 6 1/2 years on this trailer have never failed....just the new places I find in the original Dicor.

[chuckster57]

You are right, it is tough stuff. But it doesn't open back up like dicor tends to do after a few months. I've been pleased with it, but to each his own.

Dicor opens back up in a few months? You didn’t do it right if that’s the case. My factory Dicor (2012) is still intact and I dare say it been more than a few months. You use what makes you happy

[Weekender 1]

You are right, it is tough stuff. But it doesn't open back up like dicor tends to do after a few months. I've been pleased with it, but to each his own.


You know its funny that now I'm seeing brand new campers with a eternabond strip placed right over the seam screw sections. Hell thats where I got the idea to do mine new,the slide was done allready by whom ever built the slide.

Reading these forums, these 2 transition points are where the majority of leaks are happening, hell lets just put it out there, anywhere a caulk/sealant is used is where camper leaks down the road, unless damaged.


I can easily cut out any eternabond with a razor knife to make any repair required under where its used,which from reading here, that's rare but its not like whats being explained here! Oh my God there's eternabod tape here, put on your battle gear!!


Seams to me (Pun intended) some people would rather use temporary ways to deal with things instead of possibly permanent ideas.

[chuckster57]

Forest River comes to mind, on the Stealth line.

[Keystoned]

Well I've been offline on a valentines weekend, so thanks for keeping this going. There is so much good advice here though not unanimous. I'm tending towards a factory fix but still haven't tackled the silicone removal yet. I hope to begin this afternoon. Let me get that stuff off and think about it some more...

[Weekender 1]

I'm tending towards a factory fix but still haven't tackled the silicone removal yet. I hope to begin this afternoon. Let me get that stuff off and think about it some more...


The reason it stayed going is because a division on how the fix should be done.
Factory or Other fix.
:popcorn:

[sourdough]

You know its funny that now I'm seeing brand new campers with a eternabond strip placed right over the seam screw sections. Hell thats where I got the idea to do mine new,the slide was done allready by whom ever built the slide.

Reading these forums, these 2 transition points are where the majority of leaks are happening, hell lets just put it out there, anywhere a caulk/sealant is used is where camper leaks down the road, unless damaged.


I can easily cut out any eternabond with a razor knife to make any repair required under where its used,which from reading here, that's rare but its not like whats being explained here! Oh my God there's eternabod tape here, put on your battle gear!!


Seams to me (Pun intended) some people would rather use temporary ways to deal with things instead of possibly permanent ideas.


Eternabond on the slide from the factory...on a Hideout? Not saying it ain't so, just never saw it. Are you sure it's not the tape they use at the front transition edge (back of front face) of the slide (not Eternabond)? As far as placing Eternabond over a transition from EPDM/TPO to another material then just "easily cutting out any eternabond with a razor knife to make any repair required under where it's used"..... You do realize that when you "easily cut out" that eternabond the EPDM/TPO came off with it? You aren't going to separate the two without significant damage to the roof material, so......the repair really needs to be to the roof itself, not the misc. attachments to it, the roofing membrane etc. - because it is STUCK to it. :nonono:

[Weekender 1]

Eternabond on the slide from the factory...on a Hideout? Not saying it ain't so, just never saw it. Are you sure it's not the tape they use at the front transition edge (back of front face) of the slide (not Eternabond)? As far as placing Eternabond over a transition from EPDM/TPO to another material then just "easily cutting out any eternabond with a razor knife to make any repair required under where it's used"..... You do realize that when you "easily cut out" that eternabond the EPDM/TPO came off with it? You aren't going to separate the two without significant damage to the roof material, so......the repair really needs to be to the roof itself, not the misc. attachments to it, the roofing membrane etc. - because it is STUCK to it. :nonono:


Yes sir, the outside and inside edge of the slide roof where it is screwed down has been covered by tape, no screws covered in dicor. Not where it goes over the edge, which still doesn't have dicor.
And on a brand new Grand Design, no caulk of any kind was used, all tape on everything on the roof and the roof was PVC.
Yes :whistling: I know when I have to do a repair under the front cap etc. when I cut out the tape that part of the rubber roof will come with it. Big Deal:confused:!!! So what actually is your :nonono: about? Either way it needs to be resealed, you'll use dicor and I won't.


Now does your house roof use caulk to seal every protrusion on your roof?
On a commercial rubber roof do they use caulk to seal every protrusion?
Nope and Nope, why? But then its ok on a RV when now we have tape that will last as long as the roof membrane itself pr longer, seal like no caulk ever could, but don't use it, its the devil! Hey Joey go get the pineapples, but we could make something that stays on top of the water, no idiot keep doing the way we've always done it, progress sucks!!

[chuckster57]

Which model of Grand Design? I worked on them up to the 2020 MY and didn't see that.

[Weekender 1]

2020 Transcend 31RLK.
Guy in our park that I help out asked me to go with him and help pickout a new camper at a show. I was surprised when I went up the ladder, for one the PVC being used, which I thought was outstanding then I saw all the vents, skylight etc all taped down. I thought dam, about time!

[sourdough]

Yes sir, the outside and inside edge of the slide roof where it is screwed down has been covered by tape, no screws covered in dicor. Not where it goes over the edge, which still doesn't have dicor.
And on a brand new Grand Design, no caulk of any kind was used, all tape on everything on the roof and the roof was PVC.
Yes :whistling: I know when I have to do a repair under the front cap etc. when I cut out the tape that part of the rubber roof will come with it. Big Deal:confused:!!! So what actually is your :nonono: about? Either way it needs to be resealed, you'll use dicor and I won't.


Now does your house roof use caulk to seal every protrusion on your roof?
On a commercial rubber roof do they use caulk to seal every protrusion?
Nope and Nope, why? But then its ok on a RV when now we have tape that will last as long as the roof membrane itself pr longer, seal like no caulk ever could, but don't use it, its the devil! Hey Joey go get the pineapples, but we could make something that stays on top of the water, no idiot keep doing the way we've always done it, progress sucks!!


I think it would be useful for you to post a pic of all that "eternabond" used on the tops and sides of the slides. Mine is taped as well but is definitely not "eternabond".

[Weekender 1]

I think it would be useful for you to post a pic of all that "eternabond" used on the tops and sides of the slides. Mine is taped as well but is definitely not "eternabond".




If it would do any good, but it wont. Your going to try to split hairs, I'm done.
And you just kinda proved my point by adding "mine is taped". Well that was what the whole thing was about. Silicone doesn't stick, caulks like dicor dont stand up and need constant watch and rework when there is super sticky tape which solves it all and now its being used in the industry!

[Keystoned]

Well it was a beautiful day here today, but I had to help get my mom out of the hospital and to a rehab facility before they killed her...so maybe tomorrow. Send you wishes that once I get it started it will mostly come off as one long piece.
So once I remove it I'll have to tarp it for a while...what can I use and where, to keep the tarp from blowing off?

[chuckster57]

Well it was a beautiful day here today, but I had to help get my mom out of the hospital and to a rehab facility before they killed her...so maybe tomorrow. Send you wishes that once I get it started it will mostly come off as one long piece.
So once I remove it I'll have to tarp it for a while...what can I use and where, to keep the tarp from blowing off?



First and foremost: best wishes for your mom. If your going to tarp it, I would get enough rope to tie the ends together tight, under the trailer. I would use every eyelet in the tarp.

[CedarCreekWoody]

After wrapping the tarp a bit over the front you might want to raise the trailer tongue a bit so that any water blowing under the tarp from the rear would tend to drain away.
I do hope your mom is ok. Moms are special!

[sourdough]

Well it was a beautiful day here today, but I had to help get my mom out of the hospital and to a rehab facility before they killed her...so maybe tomorrow. Send you wishes that once I get it started it will mostly come off as one long piece.
So once I remove it I'll have to tarp it for a while...what can I use and where, to keep the tarp from blowing off?



Well wishes to your mom also. Depending on the issue some of my rehabs have been pretty painful too!! :) Hopin all goes well.

Chuck is right about securing the tarp under the trailer. Another thing would be to do the best you can to secure it so that wind cannot blow under it from the top/sides and just push it off the roof. Albq doesn't have wind like W TX but it does have more wind than a lot of places. If you are leaving that seam exposed (under the tarp), and it's on the edge, you might put some sort of foam barrier? (maybe cut out pipe insulation) over that edge under the tarp so it won't be pulling that transition strip (or the wall) with every gust of wind that whips that tarp. Good luck and keep us in the loop.

[Keystoned]

Thanks for well wishes for my mom. She is at that age where she doesn't have many more years and a simple illness can go bad quickly. We chose a rehab place that has been great for her before.
Tarp was my first idea but am open to others as well. We are expecting wind and rain here this week and weekend so don't want to leave the culprit gap exposed. We are approaching the windy season here but I'll take that over floods, tornadoes and hurricanes any day of the week!
Can anybody refer me to a cross section of what that joint area looks like?

[chuckster57]

Rear wall ends at the top of the trailer. Roof ends just in front. The roof membrane is most likely stapled to the rear cross member. Then the rear L piece is screwed into place with putty/butyl tape underneath. Screws are sealed and most often the leading (roof) edge of the trim.

You can use pipe insulation or pool noodle cut 90* so it lays across both edges but it may not cover the leading edge. Duct tape or anything like that may not stick and/or tear the membrane upon removal. Not sure what type of tape I would use just to cover the area until clear weather.

[Keystoned]

First, I've NEVER seen a beige EPDM roof on any Outback. The EPDM roofing material used on Outback trailers is white. The last EPDM membrane I've seen on any Outback is in model year 2012, although I heard that some trailers were produced in 2013 with EPDM. All of the 2014 and newer Outbacks that I've seen have all had TPO membrane on the roof. The ONLY beige roofing material I've ever seen is TPO.

That said, you can pull the plastic molding from the bathroom exhaust fan (4 #2 Roberts screws) and you'll find the roofing material stapled to the wooden framing for the exhaust fan. Pull the couple of staples and you can see the back side of the roofing membrane. If the membrane is BLACK with a white coating on top, it's EPDM. If the roofing membrane is the same color on both sides, it's TPO. Easy to check and be certain what is on your trailer, however, there is virtually no difference in the sealant used for EPDM and TPO membrane patching. Both can be used, but the EPDM sealant has a "tad bit more dispersant agent" in it. That is the agent that keeps the sealant "pliable and flowing" from the tube. As soon as it is applied, the dispersant begins to evaporate. The additional dispersant can (not will) cause the TPO membrane to swell slightly. Once the dispersant evaporates, there is no difference in the two sealants. However, the TPO membrane "MIGHT" (not will) bulge and/or "ripple" from the additional dispersant.

The "rippling" is cosmetic only, there is NO damage to the membrane function, so there is no reason to "fear" using either type of DICOR sealant on either type of membrane.....

That said, if the silicone was applied over the DICOR sealant, then using a plastic scraper you can remove all of the silicone by removing the DICOR under it. Then, apply a fresh layer of DICOR (or Alpha-Systems) self leveling sealant, being sure to apply the new coating to FULLY cover the old coating and also overlap the edge margins by about 3/8" or 1/2" on all edges. That overlapping will provide for a fresh adhesion beyond where the old layer was applied. This is one time when "more is better". As the sealant cures, it will flatten and level itself to fully cover all of the old sealant surface PLUS overlap to fresh areas, completely sealing the entire surface.

If there is no mechanical damage to the area, the above should be all you need to do. If there is damage to the TPO membrane or to the "joiner strip" between the roof and the front cap, then you'll need to work on that before applying any sealant. My guess is that if the screws are intact, tight and there is no visible damage, then the joiner strip "should" be OK. In that case, all you'll need to do is spend "lots of sweat-equity" in removing all the old silicone, a portion of the underlying DICOR sealant (so you know all the silicone is removed) and then clean thoroughly, apply new sealant and wait for it to cure (48 hours or so)… However, it will be "sticky and roll under your finger" for probably 6-8 weeks after application...

Thanks for the above info. Same color both sides, so TPO.
Does not appear to have damage to TPO, joiner strip or screws, see pix. Sorry about the shadow, sun on the wrong side now. Without the shadow you would see that dirt has made its way to the edge of the metal strip.
There was mostly a very thin skin of silicon except at the corner.
Question; does the dicor need to butt up against the strip, which is under the 'rubber' cover? Seems like there should be dicor there first, then replace the rubber strip down into the dicor, then more dicor along that joint.
This is on the right side almost midway. The corner needs the most goop.
The edge on the back side seems okay even though there is some silicon that is adhered very well and might not be worth it to remove.

[Keystoned]

So the Dicor website says that TPO should use their ultra sealant 2 part system...pretty sure that is not what is on my roof and I can't really find much info on it. I'll check into Alpha systems also.
I'm also thinking that self leveling stuff can't be used on the problem corner especially as it becomes vertical.
I'm going to buy repair product today, so more advice would be appreciated this morning, please.

[sourdough]

From everything I've read and done regular Dicor will work fine on the TPO roof. You would use non self leveling on the vertical seams.

https://www.keystoneforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23265

https://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/28417686/print/true.cfm

Or you could try to find the ultra sealant and use it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gbMVXX59n8

[Keystoned]

Thanks. Looks like the ultra sealant is best for a virgin surface. I will be applying over existing dicor, which probably caused the wavy look to begin with, so dicor goop is on the list.

[JRTJH]

When Alpha Systems first started producing TPO roofing material for installation on RV's, they were a "membrane only producer"... Their literature recommended using DICOR sealant products to complete the installation. Later on, after they were established, they started producing their own line of sealants. When they came out, the "recommendation for sealant use" changed from DICOR to Alpha Systems brand. That should tell you all you need to know about the "interchangeability of recommended sealants"...

The above said, there is a difference in the amount of naphtha (the chemical liquid used to keep the sealant flowing from the tube) that is contained in the EPDM sealant and the TPO sealant. Naphtha is essentially a "quick evaporating solvent" that can cause "bulging and swelling" to the TPO membrane with prolonged exposure. THERE IS NO DAMAGE TO THE TPO, JUST SWELLING AND COSMETIC CHANGES IN THE SURFACE.....

Both DICOR and Alpha Systems produce sealant containing reduced naphtha for TPO membrane. DICOR also produces sealant for EPDM membrane. BOTH sealants will work and will produce the same sealing capacity. The sealant with more naphtha "MIGHT" cause some swelling/bulging/rippling in the TPO membrane along the edges of the sealant bead. The "TPO sealant" causes less disfiguring because it contains less naphtha, but a thick, heavy coat of TPO sealant will cause the same swelling if applied thick enough and the weather conditions are right to delay evaporation of the naphtha in the sealant. Otherwise, there's no difference and either sealant can be used "interchangeably on either roof surface"...

It's a "marketing ploy" to keep profits high or a "don't use their product, use ours" statement.

You can think of the difference in EPDM vs TPO sealant formulation as using premium gas in a vehicle set up to use regular gas. Either can be used and no harm done with a tank of either.....

As for using Alpha Systems vs DICOR sealant formulation for TPO roofing, that's the same as using BP vs Shell or Exxon regular gas in a vehicle, there's virtually no difference with any product if it's fresh, not expired and used correctly.

[Keystoned]

Thanks again. So should I lay a bead against the metal under the cover, followed by a bead against the cover?

[JRTJH]

I'd suspect that there is a 1" strip of butyl putty tape between the two layers, they are "screwed together and then self-leveling sealant is applied VERY LIBERALLY over the entire seam, likely overlapping at least 2" on each side of the joint. That's a total of 4" of sealant width.

That said, is there an aluminum joiner strip at the union? On most, there's a joiner strip that overlays the roof decking, the TPO membrane and the front cap material. That joiner strip adds rigidity, protects the TPO membrane and provides a waterproof seal over the entire structure.

[Keystoned]

Without a sketch or drawing I'm sure I am using the wrong words. So, going from front to rear you have the front 'plastic fairing' that sees the wind as you drive along. On top, between the fairing and the TPO membrane there is a black strip less than an inch wide and half that high. Under that there is a metal strip with screws holding it down.
When I removed the uneven silicone and dicor behind the black strip, the rear of the strip could be lifted to see the metal strip with screws. Since water had got under there you can see some dirt up against the metal strip.
I thought I would blow it out and wipe it down followed by a bead of dicor against the metal strip under the black cover strip. Then push the black strip down into the dicor bead and run another liberal bead between the black strip and existing dicor.
Are we on the same page now?

[sourdough]

I would call the fairing the front cap. I would call that black strip the "transition" strip. Over the top of that transition strip is there a soft, pliable rubber cover that sort of slips into the edges to cover the screws through the metal strip? Can you work that rubber strip off or is it just a plain strip with screws covered in "goop"? Is the transition strip all one piece or ??

I'm thinking clean everything up and get the stuff off as much as possible. Pull that transition strip off (remove those screws). Assess what damage has been done to the underlying roof. Use that butyl tape John mentioned to bridge between the cap and TPO. Drop the transition strip back and put the screws back through the strip into the roof and tighten to compress the butyl - don't strip the screws. Replace the rubber strip if it has one. Apply the dicor liberally down both edges of the strip (the butyl will take care of underneath) and over the screws if they aren't covered. If you want you could still cover the screws even if they have the rubber cover since you've had so much trouble/damage.

Without seeing it that's what I'm thinking so you can get it done, get on the road and not worry about it.

[Gegrad]

So the Dicor website says that TPO should use their ultra sealant 2 part system...pretty sure that is not what is on my roof and I can't really find much info on it. I'll check into Alpha systems also.
I'm also thinking that self leveling stuff can't be used on the problem corner especially as it becomes vertical.
I'm going to buy repair product today, so more advice would be appreciated this morning, please.

You can buy the Alpha Systems self leveling sealant on Amazon. That is what I use on my TPO roof.

[sonofcy]

I am getting so pissed by what I am finding. I have a running list that is wearing me down but just noticed the bed was wet. We had rain and snow the day before so I'm thinking a leak near where the roof meets the cap. I didn't actually see the water path but there is evidence that this has been going on for a while. The wrapping has come loose and torn around some of the 'wood' pieces above the bed and closet.
So looking on the roof it appears a repair had been attempted before, with silicone! The PO swears up and down there were no leaks and everything worked and I'm calling BS. They are either ignorant, dumb or lying, maybe all 3.
Anyway. The silicone points to that joint and other areas where it was used.
Advice on repair is appreciated...

A leak between the cap and roof is probably the most common. You need to seal the joint on the roof. I would use eternabond tape but a few on here will bitch that it is too permanent. I have a way to deal with that. The alternative is self levelling dicor, LOTS of it in a wide path over the joint.

[Badbart56]

While I know it's a Cardinal sin to use silicone ANYWHERE on an RV.....this is the product that was applied on my Fusion 405 approximately 3 years ago.


https://gaco.com/new-solution-rv-roof-restoration/


The company that did it is in Warner Robbins, Georgia and they guarantee it for life. They have done hundreds of RV's, many with prior roof damage and/or leaks. Just putting it out there that it appears there may be other options than just the "we've always done it this way" rule. Go ahead with the firestorm of opinions....

https://macon.craigslist.org/rvs/d/warner-robins-rv-roof-restoration-not/7070393996.html

[fulltilt]

Hi Dan Hi Rita
It may interest you to go to the Dutchmens Forum site, & look up Roof Membrane Replacement. I replaced the roof on my 5th wheel last year & documented it...the pictures may help you better understand what you are dealing with, such as rotating the nose cap forward. I hope it will be of some help to you. Your email address & password for this forum will also work on the Dutchmen site.

[firestation12]

I feel for your situation. I’ll defer to the expert comment you’ve received so far to repair the roof. My comment is to share a technique for repairing the wrinkles on the interior trim veneer. Yours appears extreme, but some can be repaired using a clothes steamer, wood glue and careful preening. Good luck.

[Keystoned]

Hi Dan Hi Rita
It may interest you to go to the Dutchmens Forum site, & look up Roof Membrane Replacement. I replaced the roof on my 5th wheel last year & documented it...the pictures may help you better understand what you are dealing with, such as rotating the nose cap forward. I hope it will be of some help to you. Your email address & password for this forum will also work on the Dutchmen site.

Found it, quite impressive. I hope mine is much easier.
So the membrane is stretched over a vertical wall and held somehow before the cap is laid upon that and both are held down with the metal strip and screws with butyl tape underneath?

[Keystoned]

I would call the fairing the front cap. I would call that black strip the "transition" strip. Over the top of that transition strip is there a soft, pliable rubber cover that sort of slips into the edges to cover the screws through the metal strip? Can you work that rubber strip off or is it just a plain strip with screws covered in "goop"? Is the transition strip all one piece or ??

I'm thinking clean everything up and get the stuff off as much as possible. Pull that transition strip off (remove those screws). Assess what damage has been done to the underlying roof. Use that butyl tape John mentioned to bridge between the cap and TPO. Drop the transition strip back and put the screws back through the strip into the roof and tighten to compress the butyl - don't strip the screws. Replace the rubber strip if it has one. Apply the dicor liberally down both edges of the strip (the butyl will take care of underneath) and over the screws if they aren't covered. If you want you could still cover the screws even if they have the rubber cover since you've had so much trouble/damage.

Without seeing it that's what I'm thinking so you can get it done, get on the road and not worry about it.

Sorry for the slow response. Had to take my sister to an appointment and visit my mom in rehab this morning. I'll be checking it out closer this afternoon but the black strip is the rubber screw cover, which I only tilted forward last time. It probably comes off to reveal the metal strip which is held down by the screws.
I'll report back later on what I find.

[Keystoned]

I feel for your situation. I’ll defer to the expert comment you’ve received so far to repair the roof. My comment is to share a technique for repairing the wrinkles on the interior trim veneer. Yours appears extreme, but some can be repaired using a clothes steamer, wood glue and careful preening. Good luck.

Thanks, I might have to re-wrap the visible parts. The stuff in the closet, not so much.

[Keystoned]

Thanks to everyone who has responded to my plight. Hoping to have several things fixed within a month to go fishing on a maiden trip...

[Keystoned]

So here is the culprit corner, I think.
Were they supposed to wrap the metal strap around the bend? It kind sticks straight out instead of following the curve.
I suspect there was not enough goop stuffed in this area and I am hesitant to unscrew the metal strap and allow the cap to shift...
It looks like the factory used silicone for the cap to rubber cover interface, which seems to have held up good. Remember, my leak was with the trailer stationary and level, not moving. I have not moved it but about a mile since I bought it, on a clear day.
If you look at that corner in post #41, there are a bunch of wrinkles where it bunches up and maybe the sealant didn't get in there good enough?

[rlh1957]

Points are made to remove silicone. That means all traces of silicone, don't just razor peel it off. The surface has to be chemically cleaned back to virgin material or the Dicor will not have a good bond. There is no where on the roof where silicone should be used.

[Tatanka Ob Waci]

Keystoned-Find a flex armor dealer, have them put a new roof on and you'll never have to deal with that issue again. Flex Armor is guaranteed for the life of the unit, even if you sell it to someone else. We had ours done three years ago, still looks like new and zero maintenance!

[Keystoned]

I'm pretty sure I found the problem. That corner is tricky with the bend, wrinkles and such. So did an unconventional repair there by using weatherstrip and caulking cord, which appears to be a solid version of dicor. Working with it revealed it has the same feel as solidified dicor. So I filled that corner void with it until no more would fit, followed by self leveling dicor to fill the gap between it and the old dicor that was there, if any.
I also stuffed it into any voids along the cap and TPO along the top before covering with more dicor. I only managed almost half along the top before time ran out so I'll do more today in prep for a expected rain this weekend. Fingers crossed that the leak is fixed. I have a large tray on the bed platform to catch any leaks but I hope it will remain dry...

[sourdough]

I'm pretty sure I found the problem. That corner is tricky with the bend, wrinkles and such. So did an unconventional repair there by using weatherstrip and caulking cord, which appears to be a solid version of dicor. Working with it revealed it has the same feel as solidified dicor. So I filled that corner void with it until no more would fit, followed by self leveling dicor to fill the gap between it and the old dicor that was there, if any.
I also stuffed it into any voids along the cap and TPO along the top before covering with more dicor. I only managed almost half along the top before time ran out so I'll do more today in prep for a expected rain this weekend. Fingers crossed that the leak is fixed. I have a large tray on the bed platform to catch any leaks but I hope it will remain dry...


Hope you got it! Good luck.

[chuckster57]

Fingers crossed here for you.

[tonysr]

I am getting so pissed by what I am finding. I have a running list that is wearing me down but just noticed the bed was wet. We had rain and snow the day before so I'm thinking a leak near where the roof meets the cap. I didn't actually see the water path but there is evidence that this has been going on for a while. The wrapping has come loose and torn around some of the 'wood' pieces above the bed and closet.
So looking on the roof it appears a repair had been attempted before, with silicone! The PO swears up and down there were no leaks and everything worked and I'm calling BS. They are either ignorant, dumb or lying, maybe all 3.
Anyway. The silicone points to that joint and other areas where it was used.
Advice on repair is appreciated...

This might help you with your leaking roof and it explains how to identify your type of roof you have and to maintain it. http://www.doityourselfrv.com/rv-roof-maintenance-tips-care-rubber/

[Keystoned]

Thanks for the good wishes, I hope so too. If not, at least I now know more about how it is put together...
I still need to deal with the rubber screw cover and area in front of that on the cap. I was thinking of cleaning and conditioning the rubber unless I can find replacement material easily and affordably.

[Keystoned]

Good news...got it all done. Bad news...there were a couple of small spots where I saw some wood. So either there was a hole in the TPO there or they came up just short of enough TPO. Either way, the wood looked normal and not rotted so I made sure there was extra dicor on that area with no clear water path.
The other corner also had a huge gap to be filled and there were a few places along the top where there were gaps also. I would call these factory defects...it may have leaked from day one.
The rubber cover that goes over the metal strip and screws does not look salvageable. Any ideas where to get new stuff?
The butyl tape under the metal strip was only about an inch wide, btw.

[Keystoned]

The rubber cover that goes over the metal strip and screws does not look salvageable. Any ideas where to get new stuff?
Not even sure what it is called so I can search online...the metal strip is 5/8" wide.
Maybe this?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/0-75-x-10-ft-Camper-RV-Fifth-Wheel-Trailer-Screw-Cap-Cover-Molding-Trim-WHITE/321457255403?epid=7004260324&hash=item4ad85873eb:g:R4MAAOSwGzlTvXQ7

[sourdough]

Can you find what you need here?

https://www.trekwood.com/parts-search.php?manufacturer=1&model=Outback&year=2015&category=Plastic&search-keywords=

[Keystoned]

Maybe so, as long as I don't have to buy a 200' roll, lol
Thanks for the link.

[JRTJH]

Most RV dealerships with a parts department will have both the "thin vinyl screw strip insert" and the heavier "snap-on trim cover" in stock. The thin stuff comes in two sizes, is about $5 for a 25 foot roll, the heavier trim cover comes in 8' strips and is about $6-7 a strip.

With either type, don't try to install it when it's cold. It'll be a "bear" to get in the aluminum molding, won't bend around corners well and will probably look "bad enough to redo it" once the weather warms up. I'd either wait till a warm spring day or warm it up with an overnight in a hot room and "rush your install job so it stays pliable while you're working with it.

With either type, you'll need to anchor the ends with a screw. Don't forget to cover the screw head with DICOR sealant so it won't leak.

[Keystoned]

Thanks, again.
My strip is almost 9 feet. I wonder if it is used else where on my 5W...stuff gets old.
I'll probably need both kinds as there are missing pieces on the sides.

[JRTJH]

The thicker rigid molding cover is also sold in 16' lengths. I didn't realize what you were replacing was that long. Any RV dealership should have it available. Maybe not in the specific color you need to "match the faded stuff" but close enough that only a "nit picker" would notice the difference LOL

[Keystoned]

I'll call a couple of places tomorrow and take a section with me...
Good news so far, we've had rain for the last 24 hours and no leak on the bed area. It was just drizzle and sprinkle, not a hard rain.

[chuckster57]

Sounds very encouraging!! Hopefully you'll be able to take it out on a trip soon. Keep at it, Quality work doesn't happen in a hurry.

[roadglide]

The thicker rigid molding cover is also sold in 16' lengths. I didn't realize what you were replacing was that long. Any RV dealership should have it available. Maybe not in the specific color you need to "match the faded stuff" but close enough that only a "nit picker" would notice the difference LOL

Wow the cleaning and removal of silicone made the repair open up and difficult. It looks to be some roof rot.

[JRTJH]

Wow the cleaning and removal of silicone made the repair open up and difficult. It looks to be some roof rot.

Difficult repair? That's up to the person doing the repair to judge. As for the evidence of "roof rot", the OP stated in post #67, " the wood looked normal and not rotted so I made sure there was extra dicor on that area with no clear water path."

Given that statement, I wouldn't suspect that there is any "roof rot" seen.

My post that you quoted is in reference to vinyl trim cover being sun faded and brittle. It has nothing to do with "roof rot".

[Keystoned]

I would not call it difficult, just time consuming. Like other repairs I have not done before, it starts out difficult and by the end it becomes easy. The last few feet along the top were the easiest and quickest.
The 2 dime size areas of wood I saw looked pristine. It was only because I removed dicor material that they were exposed. What was disappointing was that it appeared that there were several inches of gaps not sealed from day one that lead to eventual leaking.
Some previous owner noticed it and who knows who used silicone, which might have worked for a while. Either the guy I bought it from really didn't notice leaks or really lied about it. What comes around...
Anyway, thanks to all the advice offered here. I hope it is done with except for the rubber screw cover trim. I'll be looking for that today.

[Keystoned]

Found both kinds of screw cover trim, just waiting for warm weather. Cold and windy here today...

[Keystoned]

Beautiful day yesterday so I finished the roof project, I hope. Also touched up cracks and bubbles in the dicor, which should be an annual thing, right?

[JRTJH]

Beautiful day yesterday so I finished the roof project, I hope. Also touched up cracks and bubbles in the dicor, which should be an annual thing, right?

The Keystone Owner's Manual stipulates: "Inspect the roof at least every 90 days, paying close attention to all seams and/or joints and attachments where sealant is used."

While that might seem like "overkill", I can't remember the last time I was on the roof and didn't find something I thought could use some extra sealant.....

[skids]

Lets just say that my trailer has had snow on the roof way more than 90 days!

[JRTJH]

Lets just say that my trailer has had snow on the roof way more than 90 days!

There's ALWAYS, ALWAYS some exception, eh?

[skids]

Exceptions may not be good enough for Keystone, but we just got 3 or 4 new inchs of snow last night. There is more than a foot of snow on the roof. It is a "lets not and say we did" situation. :D