Lithium Battery

[foldbak]

Has anyone tried this?

https://www.amazon.com/Aims-Power-LFP12V100A-Lithium-Battery/dp/B07GRFVVLS/ref=asc_df_B07GRFVVLS/?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=&hvpos=&hvnetw=o&hvrand=&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4583726540872930&psc=1

[flybouy]

Has anyone tried this?

https://www.amazon.com/Aims-Power-LFP12V100A-Lithium-Battery/dp/B07GRFVVLS/ref=asc_df_B07GRFVVLS/?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=&hvpos=&hvnetw=o&hvrand=&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4583726540872930&psc=1

Never tried it but here are 2 things to think about. First, your converter will not charge it so you must replace your converter or purchase a stand alone charger.
Second is cost. Unless you really need the power for the cost of the battery and a charger you could most likely replace the flooded battery 6 to 8 times. If the standard battery lasts only 2 years that's 12 - 16 years worth of batteries.

[+Ruff Rider]

I just had to replace my converter and it was a standard one $300
I can only imaging that one for a lithium would be in the $500 range.

[foldbak]

This should work to charge it :cool:
I'm more looking for the amp hours. I have to run the generator so my inverter charges the batteries to peak about every 2 hours when watching TV. I don't use the converter. It's been removed. I was thinking with a 100 amp hour battery I wouldn't have to charge as often.

[JRTJH]

This should work to charge it :cool:
I'm more looking for the amp hours. I have to run the generator so my inverter charges the batteries to peak about every 2 hours when watching TV. I don't use the converter. It's been removed. I was thinking with a 100 amp hour battery I wouldn't have to charge as often.

First, you'd need to know the total amp draw on the battery. It's not just the TV to consider, but the few lights you're using, the parasitic drain that the trailer has, the refrigerator operation and then there's also the inverter/charger "intrinsic power consumption" to run its cooling fans, monitoring circuits, power loss through the transformers, etc.

To me, maybe not to you, but I'm not about to get up every 2 hours to crank a generator to "charge a battery to peak" only to keep draining it to run back outside again before bed to run it for another hour..... I'd want a battery system that is capable of powering my evening consumption without any work on my part and I'll run the generator for as long as it takes "tomorrow"....

[foldbak]

I don't want to over think it. Not necessary. I've been using the same setup for years so I know how long it takes to drain the batteries to 25% and recharge to 100%. As far as stating the generator it's built in and I can start it with my toe while reclined lol.

The question is simply has anyone used Lithium batteries. I presume that with a 100 amp hour battery bank I'd at least double my inverter time. Just wondering if I'd double my charge time as well. And what's the true life span of the battery? With proper care I can make a acid battery last 8 years. And the fridge is always on gas. I don't run it on AC unless I'm plugged in which is rare.

[flybouy]

I don't want to over think it. Not necessary. I've been using the same setup for years so I know how long it takes to drain the batteries to 25% and recharge to 100%. As far as stating the generator it's built in and I can start it with my toe while reclined lol.

The question is simply has anyone used Lithium batteries. I presume that with a 100 amp hour battery bank I'd at least double my inverter time. Just wondering if I'd double my charge time as well. And what's the true life span of the battery? With proper care I can make a acid battery last 8 years. And the fridge is always on gas. I don't run it on AC unless I'm plugged in which is rare.

Just a couple of observations on this post. If you are draining your battery to 25% you're killing it and shortening it's life every time you do it. A lead acid battery should not be drained below 50%. An 8 yr lifespan on a flooded battery? I'd like to know what brand that is.

ALL of the appliances (other than the stove/oven) require 12 vdc to operate the controller while operating on LP gas ar on 110 vac.

[Logan X]

Two golf cart batteries will give you at least 100 usable amp hours at a much cheaper price.

[sonofcy]

Never tried it but here are 2 things to think about. First, your converter will not charge it so you must replace your converter or purchase a stand alone charger.
Second is cost. Unless you really need the power for the cost of the battery and a charger you could most likely replace the flooded battery 6 to 8 times. If the standard battery lasts only 2 years that's 12 - 16 years worth of batteries.

The existing converter will charge the Lithium's, just not optimally. If you have one like mine and can override the converter to stay in a higher rate of charge then that is better. One of the advantageous of Lithium is the ability to charge them full on.

[sonofcy]

Has anyone tried this?

https://www.amazon.com/Aims-Power-LFP12V100A-Lithium-Battery/dp/B07GRFVVLS/ref=asc_df_B07GRFVVLS/?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=&hvpos=&hvnetw=o&hvrand=&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4583726540872930&psc=1
Unknown seller, stick with established brands like Battle Born, lot's of sketchy Chinese suppliers.

[sonofcy]

This should work to charge it :cool:
I'm more looking for the amp hours. I have to run the generator so my inverter charges the batteries to peak about every 2 hours when watching TV. I don't use the converter. It's been removed. I was thinking with a 100 amp hour battery I wouldn't have to charge as often.
Something messed up there, a modern TV does not use much power. Sounds like you have dealer installed FLA batteries that are NOT true deep discharge and/or they have been discharged at least once below 50%, which kills them and now you are just 'top charging'

[foldbak]

Something messed up there, a modern TV does not use much power. Sounds like you have dealer installed FLA batteries that are NOT true deep discharge and/or they have been discharged at least once below 50%, which kills them and now you are just 'top charging'


I think you misinterpreted. The system works just fine. I'm just looking to make it a bit more efficient. The first thing I did was upgrade the batteries to Deep cycle. I purchase all of my batteries from a local co in Sacramento. Battery Bill has been around for decades and makes a great battery and stands behind his product.



And their certainly not surface charged. My Aims inverter/charger is a 100 amp Multi stage smart charger. I can bring them back from 11 volts inverted to around 90% full charge in about 30 mins. The chargers a beast. I would have put 6 volt deep cycle batteries in series but I would have to make a larger larger battery box and and dont want to have to deal with the 2/0 welding cable again.

[sonofcy]

I think you misinterpreted. The system works just fine. I'm just looking to make it a bit more efficient. The first thing I did was upgrade the batteries to Deep cycle. I purchase all of my batteries from a local co in Sacramento. Battery Bill has been around for decades and makes a great battery and stands behind his product.



And their certainly not surface charged. My Aims inverter/charger is a 100 amp Multi stage smart charger. I can bring them back from 11 volts inverted to around 90% full charge in about 30 mins. The chargers a beast. I would have put 6 volt deep cycle batteries in series but I would have to make a larger larger battery box and and dont want to have to deal with the 2/0 welding cable again.

Works fine!!!!! Not if you have to charge every 2 hours. If you have discharged them to 25% they are all but dead. I use Trojan T105's and they are rated at 225 but of course only use 112. I get 6 hours of use for my 5th wheel on a 25% discharge or 75% state of charge.Since FLA's are usually rated for 300 cycles and are fully discharged at 12V and 50% at 12.4 V your 11V is beyond dead. Go to school on the topic. Yes a LiFePO4 will make things better because you CAN discharge them to 0, just make sure it has a good BMS, Battle Born would be a good candidate.
https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/lead_based_batteries

[foldbak]

Works fine!!!!! Not if you have to charge every 2 hours. If you have discharged them to 25% they are all but dead. I use Trojan T105's and they are rated at 225 but of course only use 112. I get 6 hours of use for my 5th wheel on a 25% discharge or 75% state of charge.Since FLA's are usually rated for 300 cycles and are fully discharged at 12V and 50% at 12.4 V your 11V is beyond dead. Go to school on the topic. Yes a LiFePO4 will make things better because you CAN discharge them to 0, just make sure it has a good BMS, Battle Born would be a good candidate.
https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/lead_based_batteries


Well that's it for me. I'm done being insulted by this group of rude grumpy old men. I'm not an idiot! Have fun I'm out to perhaps a forum that has a bit more common courtesy. :facepalm:

[chuckster57]

Well that's it for me. I'm done being insulted by this group of rude grumpy old men. I'm not an idiot! Have fun I'm out to perhaps a forum that has a bit more common courtesy. :facepalm:



I’m sorry if you feel insulted and we all aren’t grumpy old men. If you have a gripe with any particular member, you should try to iron it out in private (PM) and if needed you can ignore the member you feel is insulting you. I for one have found this thread interesting and As a moderator welcome other opinions and information as long as we can all remain civil. Let’s ALL take a step back, take a deep breath and start over.

[foldbak]

I just hate people that don't possess communication or people skills. There's a way to make your point without making a person feel stupid or put them on defense. I was a heavy duty mechanic for 19 years. That included electric forklifts so I know a little bit. Enough to design and install my system. I was generalizing when I said 11 volts. Guess I need to be more exact! 11.SOMETHING. I've also been told a battery wont last 8 years. News flash! My 2012 Ford has the original battery in it and it ONLY gets used to tow.


Look I could run a test and show the exact battery voltages, conditions and time lines to prove my statement but really? I simply asked if anyone has used lithium batteries and what their thoughts were. :facepalm:

[chuckster57]

As you know, some subjects seem to get people riled up and once your wound tight, it seems like your people skills take a back seat. I appreciate you coming back and I look forward to your continued participation in this forum.

[sonofcy]

I just hate people that don't possess communication or people skills. There's a way to make your point without making a person feel stupid or put them on defense. I was a heavy duty mechanic for 19 years. That included electric forklifts so I know a little bit. Enough to design and install my system. I was generalizing when I said 11 volts. Guess I need to be more exact! 11.SOMETHING. I've also been told a battery wont last 8 years. News flash! My 2012 Ford has the original battery in it and it ONLY gets used to tow.


Look I could run a test and show the exact battery voltages, conditions and time lines to prove my statement but really? I simply asked if anyone has used lithium batteries and what their thoughts were. :facepalm:
Here is the voltage to %SOC chart (24hr resting)
100% 12.65V
75% 12.45V
50% 12.24V Min you should go to not severely reduce the life of the battery
25% 12.06V
0% 11.89V
From the site https://batteryuniversity.com
Also from that site is the following info re cycle life of different battery types.
Starter batteries 100-120 cycles to 50% SOC but remember a single start is a tiny fraction of a cycle
Typical Deep cycle 400-500 cycles to 50% SOC
Trojan T105 1,000 cycles to 50% SOC
LiFePO4 3,000 to 5,000 cycles to 20%- SOC
Hope this helps, not intending to be anything but helpful, but as a former industrial electrician I was totally blown away by what I didn't know about batteries and that is why I have spent several years studying them since I retired.

[foldbak]

Here is the voltage to %SOC chart (24hr resting)
100% 12.65V
75% 12.45V
50% 12.24V Min you should go to not severely reduce the life of the battery
25% 12.06V
0% 11.89V
From the site https://batteryuniversity.com
Also from that site is the following info re cycle life of different battery types.
Starter batteries 100-120 cycles to 50% SOC but remember a single start is a tiny fraction of a cycle
Typical Deep cycle 400-500 cycles to 50% SOC
Trojan T105 1,000 cycles to 50% SOC
LiFePO4 3,000 to 5,000 cycles to 20%- SOC
Hope this helps, not intending to be anything but helpful, but as a former industrial electrician I was totally blown away by what I didn't know about batteries and that is why I have spent several years studying them since I retired.


Well thanks for the lesson......but that's not the information I was looking for nor does it answer my question. I'll be sure to refer to this the next time I need a refresher.



I asked if anyone has used lithium batteries and what their thoughts were.

[chuckster57]

I know that pleasureway uses lithium batteries in Their units, and most have a solar panel on the roof. I wonder if you might find better information if they have a discussion forum.

[JRTJH]

I've stayed out of this because honestly, it doesn't interest me in my current situation. I believe, for most RV'ers, lithium battery conversion is far too expensive and most don't use/even keep their RV long enough to justify the expense of conversion.

As a comparison, two GC2 (golf cart) batteries are less than $200 and can be used with the existing RV electrical charging system. Total expense to upgrade to a "100 amp system" is $200.

On the other hand, a lithium 100 amp battery is roughly $900 and the current RV charger typically won't charge that battery efficiently to obtain maximum life/recharge cycles. So, a new charger with a lithium profile is needed. That charger costs about $300. Now the expense of conversion becomes a "do it yourself cost" of around $1200.

The only advantage I can see when the two systems are "side by side" is the lower "discharge threshold" of the lithium system. (20% rather than 50%). That small "extended run time" at least for me, doesn't justify the added expense or the added longevity.

My current GC2 batteries (Duracell from Sam's Club) cost $78 each when I bought them 8 years ago. Today's cost is $89. My batteries are still functioning, still providing adequate power and still recharging appropriately after 8 years of service. Conversion to a system with a lifespan of 20 years would likely outlive my RV's lifespan. The cost $156 vs $1200 can't be justified, by me.

I see no advantage in a major investment ($1200) to change to a lithium system "for grins"... Currently, from a "dollar perspective" for someone who has a 3 or 4 year old RV, that major investment, when conditioned against the remaining RV ownership time, would likely not work out as a "wise investment".

There was a time when I wanted the "latest and greatest" and would pay 5, 6 even 10 times the "next year selling price" to buy it "NOW"... Through the years, I've learned that if I continue using what I have until next year, I can get the same thing and still have all the service I've enjoyed, have the "latest things a bit later" and keep much of my money.

That said, once the price of lithium technology becomes competitive for short term use (not the sales hype of recharge cycles) then the technology will be competitive from a short term investment perspective. Until people start keeping RV's 15 years or until the price of lithium batteries is similar to today's GC2 FLA batteries, for most, it's more a "gee-gaw look what I have" trinket than it is a useful tool for an RV.

Now, I know this is likely controversial for some people to understand, and that's OK. I realize there are some people who, for whatever reason, have the funds to "live on the technology edge and pay for it gladly".... I'm not including those people in "can you justify it from your use/income/need perspective. There are always going to be some people who can justify any expense, for them, Lithium technology is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and I agree, for them, it's the right choice. However, for the average RV owner, the cost is way too high to offset the benefit.

YMMV, and I've no doubt the flames will soon reach "scorching temps"... :popcorn:

[n0arp]

I've stayed out of this because honestly, it doesn't interest me in my current situation. I believe, for most RV'ers, lithium battery conversion is far too expensive and most don't use/even keep their RV long enough to justify the expense of conversion.

As a comparison, two GC2 (golf cart) batteries are less than $200 and can be used with the existing RV electrical charging system. Total expense to upgrade to a "100 amp system" is $200.

On the other hand, a lithium 100 amp battery is roughly $900 and the current RV charger typically won't charge that battery efficiently to obtain maximum life/recharge cycles. So, a new charger with a lithium profile is needed. That charger costs about $300. Now the expense of conversion becomes a "do it yourself cost" of around $1200.

The only advantage I can see when the two systems are "side by side" is the lower "discharge threshold" of the lithium system. (20% rather than 50%). That small "extended run time" at least for me, doesn't justify the added expense or the added longevity.

My current GC2 batteries (Duracell from Sam's Club) cost $78 each when I bought them 8 years ago. Today's cost is $89. My batteries are still functioning, still providing adequate power and still recharging appropriately after 8 years of service. Conversion to a system with a lifespan of 20 years would likely outlive my RV's lifespan. The cost $156 vs $1200 can't be justified, by me.

I see no advantage in a major investment ($1200) to change to a lithium system "for grins"... Currently, from a "dollar perspective" for someone who has a 3 or 4 year old RV, that major investment, when conditioned against the remaining RV ownership time, would likely not work out as a "wise investment".

There was a time when I wanted the "latest and greatest" and would pay 5, 6 even 10 times the "next year selling price" to buy it "NOW"... Through the years, I've learned that if I continue using what I have until next year, I can get the same thing and still have all the service I've enjoyed, have the "latest things a bit later" and keep much of my money.

That said, once the price of lithium technology becomes competitive for short term use (not the sales hype of recharge cycles) then the technology will be competitive from a short term investment perspective. Until people start keeping RV's 15 years or until the price of lithium batteries is similar to today's GC2 FLA batteries, for most, it's more a "gee-gaw look what I have" trinket than it is a useful tool for an RV.

Now, I know this is likely controversial for some people to understand, and that's OK. I realize there are some people who, for whatever reason, have the funds to "live on the technology edge and pay for it gladly".... I'm not including those people in "can you justify it from your use/income/need perspective. There are always going to be some people who can justify any expense, for them, Lithium technology is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and I agree, for them, it's the right choice. However, for the average RV owner, the cost is way too high to offset the benefit.

YMMV, and I've no doubt the flames will soon reach "scorching temps"... :popcorn:

And I almost didn't comment on this because I'm one of those people who can justify it based on my usage - but there are a few things that I think need to be pointed out.

LiFePO4 cells aren't really subject to Peukert's law, so they may last longer under certain loads than lead acid cells. So, it depends on what you're doing with them. For just a few small 12V loads, a pair of GC2s will work just as well - but that changes when you throw a higher current load on them several times a day (coffee pot, residential fridge compressor, microwave, etc).

My previous system consisted of a 3kW inverter, 4x NAPA GC2s, a Victron BMV-712, no solar, PD9280, and an Onan QG5500 configured to start at ~50% SoC. After just a few months of use, I was able to note significant degradation and was no longer able to pull the plated AH out of the bank. They were on a watering system and filled every couple weeks. The bank was a little undersized for the demands - discharging to 50% at least once, often twice per day - and that was a contributing factor to their quicker than expected decline. As an aside, this setup created an inherent hatred of generators for me.

Your argument about length of ownership - what's keeping you from pulling them and moving them to your next RV? That investment doesn't have to stay with the RV if you trade or sell it - you could just return it to stock and keep your battery/converter investment for the replacement rig. With that being a possibility, a lot of your argument starts to fall short.

Also, RVs aren't generally considered investments. Sure, you can make money off a smart or lucky sale, or save some money on your family vacations if you play your cards right. Consider weekender RVs to be hobbies -- and like other hobbies, you usually don't buy the cheapest in effort to save money. You buy what you want. It's weird that we don't see much of the same financial scrupulosity when it comes to buying or upgrading sports cars, bicycles, consumer electronics, musical instruments, etc. Further, I really don't get how people go out and spend large amounts of money on a RV and then nickel and dime smaller purchases like batteries and hitches, especially when those have a very strong bearing on the overall experience with the rig. Ultimately for this line of reasoning, I've determined that if people can't finance it in, they have a much more difficult time justifying the costs. If everyone on here applied the method of buying the cheapest adequate model when choosing an RV, all of us would be in Hideouts (and nothing wrong with that, we enjoyed our '14 260LHS).

If we're talking about full-timing, there is a different investment model being looked at, and that changes things. I find that it actually tends to fall in favor of things like LiFePO4 batteries, if that means offsetting the amount of time you spend in parks - which has financial as well as several more difficult to quantify benefits. There is a break even point for even the largest solar/lithium setups if you aren't paying an average of $31.87/night (our average when we used to stay in parks) in park fees.

If you are building a big bank, LiFePO4 may be the only way to go for other reasons. My bank weighs 480lbs excluding cables, while a lead acid bank with the equivalent performance would be at least half a ton, take up a whole lot more space, require more maintenance and all the labor to swap it out multiple times over the lifespan of these batteries. Extrapolated over time, it could cost nearly as much, or more.

TL;DR: Both lead acid and LiFePO4 batteries have their places. What you should have depends on how you are using your RV. The majority of people go park to park and wouldn't benefit from LiFePO4. I suspect that any moderately serious boondocker would.

[mikec557]

[The] argument about length of ownership - what's keeping you from pulling them and moving them to your next RV? That investment doesn't have to stay with the RV if you trade or sell it - you could just return it to stock and keep your battery/converter investment for the replacement rig. With that being a possibility, a lot of your argument starts to fall short.

That's what we did. I removed two battleborn 100Ah batteries, Victron 50/100 MPPT solar charge controller, Victron BMV712 battery monitor, a Progressive Dynamics charger/converter and an AIMS 1000 watt pure sine wave inverter.

Sure, it took a little time to remove it and return the RV to stock. But the investment was worth it.

[Traveler2017]

So haven't actually done the conversion yet but will have it all done by Mid April.
So to answer the original question haven't used Lithium Ion. I have been investigating switching for about 2 months now and have decided to make the change. We are not rich and not looking for new toys to use, but in simple terms figure I will save some money in the long run.
Currently have 2 12volt lead acid batteries group 24's. Going to switch to one Lithium Ion battery. Battery cost with charger $629.00 CAD, and locking metal battery box $300.00 so $929.00 plus taxes. I will do the switch myself. Once I get it up and running will let you know how I am doing and give pros and cons.

Cheers everyone!!

[mikec557]

So haven't actually done the conversion yet but will have it all done by Mid April.
So to answer the original question haven't used Lithium Ion. I have been investigating switching for about 2 months now and have decided to make the change. We are not rich and not looking for new toys to use, but in simple terms figure I will save some money in the long run.
Currently have 2 12volt lead acid batteries group 24's. Going to switch to one Lithium Ion battery. Battery cost with charger $629.00 CAD, and locking metal battery box $300.00 so $929.00 plus taxes. I will do the switch myself. Once I get it up and running will let you know how I am doing and give pros and cons.

Cheers everyone!!

$629 sounds like a steal. But wait, that's Canadian money. I'll have to have Google convert to USD for me. Is that a 100Ah battery? I think you will NOT regret your decision. If you can swing it in the budget I think you will enjoy watching the "usage" of various equipment draws. Victron makes a nice Bluetooth one for about $120/130 USD. Much cheaper than when I bought mine.

Remember, Pictures, pictures, pictures. We're all voyeurs at heart.

[Traveler2017]

At the suggestion of Mikec557 I will be posting pictures of the install and stating pros and cons.

Cheers!

[SR71 Jet Mech]

Well thanks for the lesson......but that's not the information I was looking for nor does it answer my question. I'll be sure to refer to this the next time I need a refresher.



I asked if anyone has used lithium batteries and what their thoughts were.

I also have an Aims inverter/charger. I looked hard at the Aims battery but to save a little $$$ and the amount of AH I need I went with a Chins 300ah.
I know I know however that ALL come from the same place. Some just cost more and from all I can find to research these have the same battery chemistry as a Tesla. Nope can’t prove it.
Anyway I just received the battery and am in the process of getting everything in, wired and all of my solar chargers and such reprogrammed with the correct charge profiles. Looks like the Aims inverter/charger will get set to position “3” (AGM).
I did by a Boondocker converter to charge it from (sometimes).
If you want to chat PM me.

Scott

[jvbutter01]

Well thanks for the lesson......but that's not the information I was looking for nor does it answer my question. I'll be sure to refer to this the next time I need a refresher.

I asked if anyone has used lithium batteries and what their thoughts were.
Last year we had the OEM FLA batteries in the trailer, over the winter I built up a set of 280ah LifePo batteries. Weill be giving them a maiden voyage soon. I can give you feedback then. There is a huge community which used LifePo batteries for RV's Big thing is temperature. I have just finished moving my batteries from the tongue, to inside under the bed. They should stay protected from freezing temps.

Technicals,
CHARGING: yes your conventional battery charger on board will not PEAK charge the batteries, works good enough to get started.

USAGE: Yes you should know your typical amp draw to better design a system for your usage. No I did not, I learned about LifePo end of season, and then picked up my Victron meter to measure my usage. So, i over built, I have 2 - 280ah batteries built up with BMS to manage them.

You can do a google search for Will Prose
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=solar+will+prowse
he has a ton of videos. Basically he's a Solar nerd. loves everything about it. Also has a forum for Q & A. But my point is, he purchases all types of batteries and test them against Advertised Rated Amp Hours... might be worth an afternoon to watch a few.

[MXRacer]

I had some battery charging gremlins on my brand new Cougar, so I dumped the lead acid for an Ampere Time lithium 100aH. It was $499 and is highly recommended by reputable electrical guys on Youtube. The SOK lithium is also highly rated and about $550. I would love to own some BattleBorns but not at $1k+.

[Stircrazy]

If you are handy enough to comect a few wires and put batteries in parralell or series you can save a ton of money building your own LFP battery. 900 bucks for a 100 AH battery is a little outdated there are now 100ah LFP batteries that can be bought ready to go for around 500 bucks CDN, good 210 AH deep cycles are close to 300 so LFP is now cheeper than quality GC bartteries.

they will charge faster than flooded batteries, will give you full capacity and so on. if you can build your own you could build a 280AH battery for around 500.US that is about 44 lbs and 6" x 8" x 11" in size.

Steve

[travelin texans]

"reputable electrical guys on Youtube."

That's an oxymoron isn't it?
I've watched so many rv type U tube videos, mostly for a good laugh, & not sure I'd call most of them reputable.
Not saying whomever you watched wasn't "reputable", but there's a good many that aren't, just like to watch themselves on U tube.

[MXRacer]

"reputable electrical guys on Youtube."

That's an oxymoron isn't it?
I've watched so many rv type U tube videos, mostly for a good laugh, & not sure I'd call most of them reputable.
Not saying whomever you watched wasn't "reputable", but there's a good many that aren't, just like to watch themselves on U tube.

Agreed. That's why I watched many different videos and they are good for a few laughs. Lots of people love being an "influencer" these days. But there are a few good ones on there, and after watching a kid by the name of Will Prowse out of Las Vegas, I followed his advice on the Ampere Time lithium battery coupled with a Victron MPPT charge controller with the bluetooth temperature monitor.

Although I'm in the early stages of ownership, I am extremely satisfied with the results. The Ampere Time 100 aH lithium was $499 and significantly lighter than the lead acid. I did spend a bunch more elsewhere though....Victron charge controller was $350 and I put three more solar panels on the roof, but I'm a sucker for upgrades in general. My race YZ450F, all in, is about $16k (with a JGR Supercross motor,) and my carbon bmx national bike has close to $2500 in it. Like I said, I don't mind putting money into the things I enjoy.

Anyway, my family and I are really having a good time having a race headquarters again. And this forum seems to be a good group of people.

[Johnnyfry]

I am joining the discussion late in the game and may have missed a couple of entries but, the question no one seems to have asked is just how much is the OP drawing with his television watching. Many of us use 12 volt TVs with low draw or at least a modern LCD TV with a small inverter so our current draw is pretty low. Also, many of us have converted to LED lights. He already stated the he runs the fridge on gas so that draw is pretty low. Maybe he is using an old tube TV with a huge inverter...I done think that he said what he has.

What he really needs to do is get a clamp on DC ammeter and actually measure his power draw under typical conditions. Only then can he, or anyone else, make predictions on how long his set up will play.

IMHO
John

[Old_Stevenick]

I just bought an Ampere Time 100 AH Lifepo4 also for $500. Just testing it in the driveway for now.

To me the price is offset by a couple of factors.

I park the TT outside in the Winter, I have to bring batteries into the garage, even if you don't need to trickle charge a Lifepo4, I still will bring it in.

Carrying lead acid batteries is not easy for me.

Carrying this at 25 lbs is a breeze.

Also they are stated to last longer, and not subject to damage by draining them too low. I could guesstimate that they'll last twice as long, so effectively that cuts the price in ½.

[mikec557]

I just bought an Ampere Time 100 AH Lifepo4 also for $500. Just testing it in the driveway for now.

To me the price is offset by a couple of factors.

I park the TT outside in the Winter, I have to bring batteries into the garage, even if you don't need to trickle charge a Lifepo4, I still will bring it in.

Carrying lead acid batteries is not easy for me.

Carrying this at 25 lbs is a breeze.

Also they are stated to last longer, and not subject to damage by draining them too low. I could guesstimate that they'll last twice as long, so effectively that cuts the price in ½.

It's been about 2yrs since I bought 2 Battleborn lithium batteries. They have performed flawlessly, and I love the power I have with the two of them compared to my old 2 FLAs. I admit it was hard to face the price of them, but competitors like Ampere Time weren't around or at the price they are today. If I were buying right now I think I would go with your ATs. It would have saved me about $1000. I think you'll be glad you switched to lithium.

[Old_Stevenick]

I'd love to add a second battery, but there's no place to put it. I could put a box on the tongue, but there is a unit with much of the trailers electronics on the tongue that the box would make inaccessible.

So for now it's finding ways to save watts. Does anyone have a list of what comes off of which 12volt fuse? Right now it has vague terms for area 1, area 2, etc. I definitely want to kill the radio. What else is drawing power that I could disconnect?

I see about a 3W draw on the battery. That plus the 16 or so that the propane fridge is drawing and getting 2 days between running the generator is the most I hope for with 100 ah.

[mikec557]

... Does anyone have a list of what comes off of which 12volt fuse? Right now it has vague terms for area 1, area 2, etc. ... I definitely want to kill the radio.

I don't think they do two trailers the same, even if they're consecutively going down the assembly line.

On mine, the radio is not on a dedicated fuse. In fact it's the same fuse/circuit for the radio, refrigerator, and furnace, that I know of. Because the furnace and air conditioner are "controlled" by my InCommand, I'll bet the gateway inside the AC shroud is drawing 12v off the same fuse. I'd suggest you pull the radio, or an access panel beside it, and look for an inline fuse or cut in an on/off switch and mount that conveniently.

Oh yeah, there's also an always hot dual port USB plug in my outside kitchen that is on the same 12v fuse.

[Old_Stevenick]

No outdoor kitchen on the 1650 Bullett Hybrid. All I know that's on is the radio, and the detector on the floor. I assume that's a Propane detector? Probably the smoke detector.

Anything else that might be drawing power?

Any ideas on how to save some of those fridge watts?

[mikec557]

There's not much you can do. For safety reasons you probably don't want to turn off the propane, smoke nor carbon monoxide sniffers. The refrigerator circuit board draws 12v. You need that to boondock. Likewise the furnace and water heater circuit boards draw power. You could safely disable those two parasites.

USB ports, even unused, draw some power but I can't believe it's enough to worry about.

The TV antenna usually has a power amplifier. Look for an almost invisible button on the faceplate for the cable jack behind the TV. There's usually a little LED that lights up when it's on. Toggle that button to figure it out.

Leave the water pump off except when you need it to draw water.

I can't think of anything else...

[Old_Stevenick]

Great post. I'm hoping the Hot Water Heater electronics don't draw much. That's my next test. Right now I'm on day 2 of just the fridge and that other 3watts. See how much power I'll have left after 2 days. Then drain the battery, charge, it (I'm returning my 20Amp charger and getting a 45Amp charger to charge faster.)

Then I run it with the hot water heater on propane to see what it draws from the DC.

Phones I'll charge from portable charging bricks, so it's just lights and the water pump. We won't take showers or use a lot of water in the camper. Oh and rolling down and up the Canopy.

2 days is my goal, then charge with my portable 2200 dual fuel generator.

[mikec557]

Great post. I'm hoping the Hot Water Heater electronics don't draw much. That's my next test. Right now I'm on day 2 of just the fridge and that other 3watts. See how much power I'll have left after 2 days. Then drain the battery, charge, it (I'm returning my 20Amp charger and getting a 45Amp charger to charge faster.)

Then I run it with the hot water heater on propane to see what it draws from the DC.

Phones I'll charge from portable charging bricks, so it's just lights and the water pump. We won't take showers or use a lot of water in the camper. Oh and rolling down and up the Canopy.

2 days is my goal, then charge with my portable 2200 dual fuel generator.

3 watts is so miniscule (aka 1/4 of 1Ah), how are you measuring that? In 24hr period, that's 6Ah. With 100Ah battery bank, that would not concern me. Maybe I missed it earlier, do you know what is using that 3 watts?

By the way, with lithium you don't need to drain it down before recharging. Lithium has no memory. I'm guessing you'll have more Ah than you'll need for 2 days.

[Old_Stevenick]

3 watts is so miniscule (aka 1/4 of 1Ah), how are you measuring that? In 24hr period, that's 6Ah. With 100Ah battery bank, that would not concern me. Maybe I missed it earlier, do you know what is using that 3 watts?

By the way, with lithium you don't need to drain it down before recharging. Lithium has no memory. I'm guessing you'll have more Ah than you'll need for 2 days.
I'm draining it just to see how much I get out of it!

Yes the 3 watts is small, but as you say it's still 72 watts over a 24 hour period.
The way I figure it I have 90% of that 100 ah, which is 1,200 watts X .9 = 1,080 watts. 540 watts per day.

Fridge and those 3 watts are a steady 20 watts, that's 480 watts, leaving me with 60 watts for lights, water pump and hot water heater.

Seems close to me, we could go without hot water if necessary. Just nice for washing your hands. We'll take showers at the campgrounds.

[Old_Stevenick]

Oh I didn't answer your question "how are you measuring that?" I bought a Victron Smart Shunt and connected it to the battery in a waterproof box next to it. It transmits usage to my iPhone.

[mikec557]

Oh I didn't answer your question "how are you measuring that?" I bought a Victron Smart Shunt and connected it to the battery in a waterproof box next to it. It transmits usage to my iPhone.

Gotta love that Victron equipment.
Your real world test of usage will be interesting to follow. Keep us posted on your analysis.

I don't remember the exact number but I think we have 2A per hour parasitic draw at night. Then I run a fan or two in hotter weather, or the electric mattress pad in colder weather, and the cpap regardless of weather. But with two batteries and 300 watts of solar, it simply doesn't matter.

When you're done with your usage test it will be interesting to see if a 100 watt solar suitcase giving you 5Ah for say 4 or 5 hours per day would be worth your while. Maybe if it eliminated the need to start the genny it would be worth it, or maybe not. Get your usage data, then let's see.

[mikec557]

PS at the end of the 2 day boondock test, before you start the genny, tell us what the Victron battery monitor says the SOC is.

[Old_Stevenick]

I'll be noting what the monitor says after 2 days, but then will continue to run it until the fridge won't start up. I'll start the generator after the third day, then run another test with the hot water heater on.

I'll definitely keep you posted. I've looked into solar and sure I will go that route at some point. It doesn't seem like it would give me a 3rd day of boondocking though, so not worth it - yet. We camp in the woods a lot too, not much sun.

[mikec557]

I'll be noting what the monitor says after 2 days, but then will continue to run it until the fridge won't start up. I'll start the generator after the third day, then run another test with the hot water heater on.

I'll definitely keep you posted. I've looked into solar and sure I will go that route at some point. It doesn't seem like it would give me a 3rd day of boondocking though, so not worth it - yet. We camp in the woods a lot too, not much sun.

I'm going to send you a PM with a link to another manufacturer's forum... because I'm not sure it's proper to post a link like that here. The long and short of it, he's doing a bunch of upgrades to his camper which included two Battleborn 100Ah batteries. He camped 4 days. The nights were in the upper teens or lower 20s and he ran his inefficient (as we all have) propane furnace at night. Somewhere he mentions that it cycled every 10 minutes because of how cold it was and the 200Ah lasted all 4 days with no recharging. So I'm thinking your goal of 2 day on one battery is truly doable...

[Old_Stevenick]

Refrigerator bulb circuit draws power even with the light off.

Strange results this morning. The refrigerator light seems to draw power even when the door is closed. With the door closed 20wh draw from the camper. Open door, the same. Open door, push the lever to turn the light off - down to 11wh! Put my phone inside and took a video, light does go off when you close the door.

Took the bulb out. Draw stays at 11wh, door open or closed!

Something in that fridge draws 8wh with the door closed and the light off, only when there's a bulb in the fixture.

[Old_Stevenick]

Was going to edit my post, but instead will post this correction.

I just went out and did all my tests again and the draw did go down with the door closed this time. It seems that maybe the light-off door switch wasn't working well.

I'm drawing 11 watts now between the fridge and other parasitic draws. Instead of the 20 I was drawing. I did take the bulb out anyway.

Add the hot water heater to that and I think I may be good!

[mikec557]

Interesting. Before you posted the edit I was going to ask about the light switch. We have a model 2020, built in Oct-2019, and our fridge is the first one that does not have a mechanical lever to turn the light off and on. Ours has a motion sensor. Open the door and a second or two later the light comes on. I don't know what the motion sensor draws.

[Old_Stevenick]

So i'm running the hot water heater, pump is on (but not being called upon right now) fridge on with bulb removed. Radio still lit up when off.

17 watts! I was at 20 without the water heater yesterday. Going to run things for a while to see at what point the battery stops putting out enough power to light the fridge.

Than will charge up and do a full boondocking test. 17 watts is about 1.5 ah X 24 hours is 36 ah per day. Add lights and other things and 2 days will be easy. With solar could probably get to 3 days. For now I'll stick with a 2 day recharge cycle.

[flybouy]

So i'm running the hot water heater, pump is on (but not being called upon right now) fridge on with bulb removed. Radio still lit up when off.

17 watts! I was at 20 without the water heater yesterday. Going to run things for a while to see at what point the battery stops putting out enough power to light the fridge.

Than will charge up and do a full boondocking test. 17 watts is about 1.5 ah X 24 hours is 36 ah per day. Add lights and other things and 2 days will be easy. With solar could probably get to 3 days. For now I'll stick with a 2 day recharge cycle.

If you want a true indication of how long you can "boondock" just go out and live in it for a day or two. The only way to tell is to use the fridge as you normallt would, wash dishes, wash hands, take showers as normally would, otherwise running tests while appliances are idle will not reflect "real world" results.

I'd also be mindful of just how low you are running your battery down during your experimemnting. You can do damage to a flooded battery by discharging them too far.

[Old_Stevenick]

flybouy I completely agree with you, this is just giving me a baseline. The way I look at it is if I can't even barely get 2 days this way, no way I will in the real world. If I can get 2 days with 20 ah to spare, I feel like I have a shot at it!

This is a Lithium Iron Phosphate battery, which supposedly are allowed to be drained down all the way with no damage. I won't go below 10% in my tests.

[flybouy]

flybouy I completely agree with you, this is just giving me a baseline. The way I look at it is if I can't even barely get 2 days this way, no way I will in the real world. If I can get 2 days with 20 ah to spare, I feel like I have a shot at it!

This is a Lithium Iron Phosphate battery, which supposedly are allowed to be drained down all the way with no damage. I won't go below 10% in my tests.

I got distracted when typing this and forgot the battery change. The garage called me and told me my steering gearbox is bad, $2K to replace.:facepalm:

Anyway, you should have no ptoblem making it 2 days.

[Old_Stevenick]

Sorry about your steering gearbox flybouy, ouch!

[JRTJH]

I have a pair of GC2 golf cart batteries. They are rated at 200-225 A/H and should not be discharged below about 50%. So, if we consider the pair at a 12 volt 100 A/H source, it's "somewhat comparable to your battery if being discharged to around 50%.

We routinely dry camp for a week at a time. During the winter I recharge the battery bank with a generator (midnight furnace issues are not pleasant). During the spring/summer, we regularly go 3 days between charging the battery. That's using no more than 50% of the charge from the battery bank. Our consumption is based entirely on how WE USE the trailer, not on "how the trailer systems consume power when not being used by humans"...

I don't see any reason to believe that your battery, if it's rated at 100 A/H, should not perform in a similar fashion.

So, depending on what YOU and YOUR FAMILY do when camping, how much TV, radio, how many LED lights, how often you open the refrigerator or how much water you use will dramatically affect the battery consumption. A "stagnant RV will not consume anywhere near what an RV being used will consume".... It's sort of like measuring the amount of propane used to heat water in the water heater for a week. The amount of propane will vary dramatically from "heating it with no water use" and "heating it while taking 6 showers and washing dishes twice daily"...

It's difficult at best, unscientific at best, to rely on"stagnant use data" to calculate "active use requirements"... The only way I know to obtain the data you're trying to determine is to actually "live in the trailer" not "calculate it by subjective information"....

That's like determining GCWR by using a bathroom scale to weigh everything you put in the trailer, so the "hitch weight must be XX because 13% of that weight is "supposed to be on the tongue"... Real world seldom follows "hypothetical use"...

[Old_Stevenick]

JRTJH, thanks for that post. Our usage will be low and we'll be monitoring it, so upping my hopes to 3 days is now on the table again!

We do a lot of 4 day trips. So if we could get to an easy 3, than I think a small solar setup might easily get us to 4 days, no charging would be awesome.

For many years it's been us and a pop-up. We'd go a week on the battery which was just a standard lead acid battery, so we go easy.

[JRTJH]

I'd recommend this:

The best laid plans often don't consider an "overlooked part that totally spoils the plans"....

At this point, you have the generator, you have the battery, you have the RV. Go on the trip, you're prepared to recharge if needed and can skip recharging if not needed. Either way, you'll learn "real world usage" not "hypothetical, might be usage"...

I'd recommend that you stop the worrying and overthinking about what "might be" and just go do the "will be"... If it works, and you get 3 or 4 days, great... If it doesn't work, then you'll need to make some changes either to electrical consumption or increase the battery power supply... Either way, you'll still have the generator as backup during the "learning phase"....

I guess what I'm saying is "no matter what your calculations today might be, the test isn't with the pencil, but with the actual battery performance when you're out camping".... If your DW is like mine, all the "pencil work" goes out the window when she isn't sleepy and decides to stay up after bedtime, burning lights while reading a book.... So, real world doesn't match pencil world... What do you do, argue with her to turn the light off or ignore the "hard work with the pencil that you spent days trying to calculate" ????

[Old_Stevenick]

Yup, the time is to relax. Until now, looking at that darn 20 amps of parasitic usage was very troublesome. Just fridge at idle. Once I got the fridge power down by so much by taking that bulb out now if it's 2 days, 3 days or maybe even more someday, doesn't matter.

I was worried I wouldn't even get to 2 days and that would have really sucked to have to run the generator almost every day. So I put a lot of time and energy into getting to this point. Anything more than 2 is gravy and I'm not going to spend any energy (so to speak) planning for gravy.

[JRTJH]

IMO, the reason for having a "glamper" is to go "glamping"... That means you have a light in the refrigerator (not a cold hand from digging in the ice chest) and you have a light to read a book at night (not a flashlight held in place by your teeth) and a water pump to flush the toilet after using it (not a trip in the rain to the outhouse)....

The best learning occurs with experience and that big investment has all the features to make life better than the "old popup"... Disabling them to try to get a few extra hours without recharging ??? Defeating the conveniences is almost as "primitave" as keeping the popup would have been. In that case, just keep using the popup and avoid even needing a new battery ?????

You'll be fine with what you have and on that first trip, you'll probably be "delighted" that you can enjoy the comfort of both a refrigerator light and a flush toilet without having to count the difference in 8 watts vs 12 watts of battery consumption....

Use what you paid for and enjoy the "glamping"... It's much nicer "with lights and a refrigerator" :whistling:

[travelin texans]

IMO, the reason for having a "glamper" is to go "glamping"... That means you have a light in the refrigerator (not a cold hand from digging in the ice chest) and you have a light to read a book at night (not a flashlight held in place by your teeth) and a water pump to flush the toilet after using it (not a trip in the rain to the outhouse)....

The best learning occurs with experience and that big investment has all the features to make life better than the "old popup"... Disabling them to try to get a few extra hours without recharging ??? Defeating the conveniences is almost as "primitave" as keeping the popup would have been. In that case, just keep using the popup and avoid even needing a new battery ?????

You'll be fine with what you have and on that first trip, you'll probably be "delighted" that you can enjoy the comfort of both a refrigerator light and a flush toilet without having to count the difference in 8 watts vs 12 watts of battery consumption....

Use what you paid for and enjoy the "glamping"... It's much nicer "with lights and a refrigerator" :whistling:

I've often thought the same thing!
Spend tens of thousands of $$ on a rv with all the conveniences of home then park somewhere that requires thousands of $ worth of batteries, solar chargers & generators to not use all those conveniences.
We required only 3 things while using ours; water, 50 amp electric & sewer connection. The sewer connection could be optional if not staying more than 2-3 days.
But to each their own!

[Old_Stevenick]

We have some places we’ve gone for many years that don’t have hookups and at Sebago Lake we like the sites in an area without them. So at least some of our camps will be dry. With time we may change to hookups. A new phase in our camping lives begins.

[JRTJH]

We have some places we’ve gone for many years that don’t have hookups and at Sebago Lake we like the sites in an area without them. So at least some of our camps will be dry. With time we may change to hookups. A new phase in our camping lives begins.

50 years ago, DW and I stumbled on a small, secluded lake in the UP. It's about 12 miles down a dirt road, had only a couple of seasonal cabins on the west end of the lake and a state forest campground with 6 sites on the east end of the lake. There were no hookups, so if camping there, it's all dry camping.

Fast forward to 10 years ago when we moved back to Michigan. I wanted to go to that lake to see if you could still see those "house sized boulders in 100' of crystal clear water and if the fishing was anywhere close to what it used to be...

We drove the road in a 4x4 truck pulling the boat (no camper) and found the campground now has about 15 sites, all still primitive to include no trash barrels and only one pit toilet and a hand pump that produces excellent water. We put the boat in the water and found that it is as clear now as it was 40 years before. We caught small mouth bass in the 1.5 to 2.5 pound range as fast as we could cast a lure. Yep, the lake was as good or better than I'd remembered.

For the past 12 years, we make a 2 week trip "triple towing" the fifth wheel and the boat to spend a couple weeks "in heaven" without electricity, without phones, without sewer and without city water hookups. It's still 12 miles down that dirt road (hope you don't meet someone because there's no place to turn around and it's impossible to back two trailers)...

We dry camp there with the assistance of a generator and two 6 gallon jerry cans to pack water and a 22 gallon "blue tank" to pack out gray water.

So, there are places and times when "having all the conveniences" mean full hookups and there are times when "you can have nearly the same thing with all the conveniences, even microwave and battery charging, with the right planning...

For us, those two weeks are something we look forward to doing every year. My grandson, 24 years old, enjoys the fishing on that lake more than anywhere else I've taken him. It's thrilling to see him lay down his fishing rod and say, "Pop, my arms are killing me"....

So, even with a limited battery supply and a generator, "glamping for a couple of weeks" is not an impossible dream. We do it every year and don't "count watts or make do without a convenience we need or want"... No reason anyone else couldn't do the same thing (within reason) with the same "limited battery power and a means to recharge"....

Now, I wouldn't try it in the SW desert in July without air conditioning, but in northern Michigan, some trips in July need heat rather than air and it's always nice weather "when you're on the lake"....

For me, it's another "Alfred E Neuman" moment: What?? Me worry????

Worst that can happen is the LED's go dim... That's not an inconvenience when you've got a campfire to light the evening darkness.....

[Old_Stevenick]

I like the idea of unhooking to scout campsites. My DW does all the driving and convincing her to do that is another story. I am looking into backup cameras as it's been hard enough with the pop up at times with her having to take directions from me!

[mikec557]

We full timed for just under 2yrs. Drove all over the country and had a great time. We ran into all kinds of "different" camper-people. Some liked full hookup and brought every toy they could haul, some liked to camp primitive, and others who liked everything in between. I say, to each his own. Camp however you want and enjoy yourself. As for me, I'm a Jack of all Trades, Master of none. If someone asks for help or advice on something I can contribute to, then I do. If I can't, then I usually read along and see if I can learn something.

[B-O-B'03]

On our fridge there is a 12V heating element in the panel between the bottom of the freezer and the top of the fridge. It is supposed to keep condensation from forming in that area due to the cold temperatures.

Power to that heater flows through the same circuit as the inside light.

I found an schematic for our fridge on-line and installed a switch to disable the heater when we are boon-docking.

I cannot remember, off hand about the power consumption, but it was persistent, as long as the fridge was on.

-Brian