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tylerj1966
01-06-2020, 12:18 PM
I've been looking around the various mfg websites and one of the options offered is to lower the GVW from 14k to 12.3k and even as low as 10k on some srw trucks. I live in a state that charges a weight fee as part of the registration cost. My question is, do you guys that hammer everyone on exceeding the weight of their door sticker think an F350 with a 10k GVW is any less capable than the same F350 with a 14k GVW? These 2 trucks are identical, ie. same frame and axles, but the buyer has asked for a lower GVW to save on registration fees.

chuckster57
01-06-2020, 12:51 PM
It isn’t any less capable if it came from the factory with the higher rating. I live in Ca like you and yeah weight fees are excessive but I’m willing to bet the penalties of getting caught hauling over the limit are worse.

JRTJH
01-06-2020, 01:22 PM
There are three considerations to answer your question.

First, are you POSITIVE that Ford, GM or Chrysler actually build their 1 ton truck with a 10K GVW "exactly" the same as they build their 1 ton truck with a 14K GVW ??? There "may be more than meets the eye".... I'd confirm with the manufacturer if the components are "exactly the same" before assuming they "must be because the trucks were parked side by side and look alike"...

Second, as Chuckster commented, if you register it at 10K and get caught, either by having an accident or getting a ticket for speeding and an "over-zealous LEO" decides to "stick the screws to you" and demands a weight.....

Third, if you're ever involved in an accident, whether it's your fault or not, the civil side of taking your money (not the legal side of who was responsible) can make you a pauper tomorrow even though you're a millionaire today..... Juries don't rely on "beyond a shadow of doubt" in civil suits, it's "the preponderance of evidence" (probably more likely he did than he didn't) when they take your money and give it to the other side. If they (the other side) can place blame on the truck's registration, how much "muddy water" can they sling and make stick ????

It's not "strictly" the physical capability of the vehicle, it's the "whole concept" that can bite you on the butt when you least expect it.....

I'd talk to a legal expert in your state about the "legal vs civil laws" and how they relate to your state's criminal code AND civil code.... Laws don't just provide for punishment, they also provide for benefits to the injured and that's the part that makes you a pauper......

gearhead
01-06-2020, 01:24 PM
Heck I had a F350, maybe 2010-12, that had a 10,300 GVW from the factory on the yellow sticker. Payload was like 3267. Lariat, 4x4, crew cab, etc. I thought Ford did it on purpose for some reason.
My Ram dually has 14,000 GVW. Dealer registered it for 10,000. I made a fool of myself over that in the showroom. Dealer says it weighs 8,000 and it's a 1 ton, so 10,000. No man, that ain't right. It don't make any difference nobody around here cares anyway. Yeah but what happens if I'm in New Jersey or California. Uh well uh I dunno. So I went to my county clerk office and re-registered it for 14,000, Cost $1. But a year later when it was time for new stickers it was $140 instead of $77.
You pays your money and you takes your choice.

tylerj1966
01-06-2020, 01:35 PM
It isn’t any less capable if it came from the factory with the higher rating. I live in Ca like you and yeah weight fees are excessive but I’m willing to bet the penalties of getting caught hauling over the limit are worse.

So are you saying it's less capable if the door sticker says 10k? Has anyone in the RV world ever been questioned or cited for exceeding their GVW? I've been a commercial driver for 32 years, RVing for the last 15 and I've never been looked at. Chuckster, you're retired law enforcement. I realize as a commercial driver I may be asked to drive a few miles to weigh my vehicle and be inspected. RVs are unregulated. If an officer wants to weigh my RV can't I just tell him no and go on my way?

tylerj1966
01-06-2020, 01:53 PM
There are three considerations to answer your question.

First, are you POSITIVE that Ford, GM or Chrysler actually build their 1 ton truck with a 10K GVW "exactly" the same as they build their 1 ton truck with a 14K GVW ??? There "may be more than meets the eye".... I'd confirm with the manufacturer if the components are "exactly the same" before assuming they "must be because the trucks were parked side by side and look alike"...

Second, as Chuckster commented, if you register it at 10K and get caught, either by having an accident or getting a ticket for speeding and an "over-zealous LEO" decides to "stick the screws to you" and demands a weight.....

Third, if you're ever involved in an accident, whether it's your fault or not, the civil side of taking your money (not the legal side of who was responsible) can make you a pauper tomorrow even though you're a millionaire today..... Juries don't rely on "beyond a shadow of doubt" in civil suits, it's "the preponderance of evidence" (probably more likely he did than he didn't) when they take your money and give it to the other side. If they (the other side) can place blame on the truck's registration, how much "muddy water" can they sling and make stick ????

It's not "strictly" the physical capability of the vehicle, it's the "whole concept" that can bite you on the butt when you least expect it.....

I'd talk to a legal expert in your state about the "legal vs civil laws" and how they relate to your state's criminal code AND civil code.... Laws don't just provide for punishment, they also provide for benefits to the injured and that's the part that makes you a pauper......

In your hypothetical lawsuit example, couldn't you call a Ford expert to testify that the truck was not overweight because it was designed to carry 14k and not the 10k listed on the door sticker?

JRTJH
01-06-2020, 02:16 PM
In your hypothetical lawsuit example, couldn't you call a Ford expert to testify that the truck was not overweight because it was designed to carry 14k and not the 10k listed on the door sticker?

If I were foolish enough to get into that kind of situation, I'd likely NOT attempt to represent myself in court and I'd rely on the advice of the very best lawyer I could hire... So, to answer your hypothetical question, "I don't know"...

A comment though, when I have a little spare time and decide to watch TV, often, the only thing on "worth watching" is one of the legal shows, you know, like Boston Legal, Law and Order, The Good Wife, etc... Every time I watch them, somewhere in the show, somebody will say, "Never put a witness on the stand if you don't know exactly what he'll say".... So, I suppose, the hypothetical answer would be, "Depends on what that Ford expert is going to say under oath"... Which is why I suggested that if you "really want to know, contact the manufacturer and ask them the pointed question about if the 10K GVW truck is the same as the 14K GVW truck. I'm fairly certain you won't get an answer from this forum that will "hold up in hypothetical court"......

flybouy
01-06-2020, 02:20 PM
So are you saying it's less capable if the door sticker says 10k? Has anyone in the RV world ever been questioned or cited for exceeding their GVW? I've been a commercial driver for 32 years, RVing for the last 15 and I've never been looked at. Chuckster, you're retired law enforcement. I realize as a commercial driver I may be asked to drive a few miles to weigh my vehicle and be inspected. RVs are unregulated. If an officer wants to weigh my RV can't I just tell him no and go on my way?

RVs are regulated, that's what the registration and tags are all about. In Maryland, a MSP officer can call for the SP SUV with the portable scales if they have probable cause. I'm guessing a trailer sticker close to the TV sticker may be PC.

ctbruce
01-06-2020, 03:14 PM
Hypothetically speaking, and it is just barely Winter, but the daycs are getting longer. Most likely, you will seldom be the smartest guy in the room. What you save today will cost dearly down the road. With the stress and anxiety worrying over it, just ain't worth it.

bsmith0404
01-06-2020, 03:23 PM
When i was transporting I had to go through scales with RVs in most states because I was commercial. They check axle weights, not registration weights. Most states don’t want personal RVs in the scales, CA has signs for the stations that say no RVs. 3/4 ton trucks are regulated to 10k GVWR based on being a class II truck, what the true capability is can be debated and on this forum. I don’t think we have any engineers that have enough knowledge of the construction/differences to say. The new GM 2500s have a GVWR over 11k. That might be closer to real capabilities of the 3/4 tons. I’m not sure how GM is doing that unless they’ve said the heck with the class II classification in favor of payload capacity.

sourdough
01-06-2020, 03:25 PM
I knew from the OPs first post and then his first response this was a baited question for an argument. Laws are laws, rules are rules. Be smart enough to follow them or don't - that's up to an individual. As has been pointed out, there are many ramifications that go with exceeding the registered weight of a vehicle - and it has ZERO to do with if you think it can carry more or not; the registration TELLS you what it can weigh.

I was just reading an excerpt from an officer with the TX DPS in Austin about the subject. His statement was that in the event of a citation or accident (yes tow vehicles and RVs are regulated) the trooper looks at the weight on the REGISTRATION of either vehicle....that is the determining factor. Keep in mind that will also be in play when you're sitting in court and the jury takes your money and home to pay for being obstinate. He went on to say that if a person wants their vehicle to be registered for a higher weight rating then they had to go to DMV, pay for it and have it documented on the registration. THEN you're covered. I am 100% positive that they will not care what you think in a court room nor will they care if you find a Ford "rep" that says other than your registration. You will be dealing with state laws and how the judge and jury interpret them....not you. As Brent says - "you pays your money and you takes your choice".

wiredgeorge
01-06-2020, 04:07 PM
I knew from the OPs first post and then his first response this was a baited question for an argument. Laws are laws, rules are rules. Be smart enough to follow them or don't - that's up to an individual. As has been pointed out, there are many ramifications that go with exceeding the registered weight of a vehicle - and it has ZERO to do with if you think it can carry more or not; the registration TELLS you what it can weigh.

I was just reading an excerpt from an officer with the TX DPS in Austin about the subject. His statement was that in the event of a citation or accident (yes tow vehicles and RVs are regulated) the trooper looks at the weight on the REGISTRATION of either vehicle....that is the determining factor. Keep in mind that will also be in play when you're sitting in court and the jury takes your money and home to pay for being obstinate. He went on to say that if a person wants their vehicle to be registered for a higher weight rating then they had to go to DMV, pay for it and have it documented on the registration. THEN you're covered. I am 100% positive that they will not care what you think in a court room nor will they care if you find a Ford "rep" that says other than your registration. You will be dealing with state laws and how the judge and jury interpret them....not you. As Brent says - "you pays your money and you takes your choice".

My registration is my window sticker... 2/20 Medina County. There is no paper registration but the tax office may be able to provide this info since they charge based on this type info IF the LEO is willing to go through the trouble. I am a 4th degree amateur lawyer sooooooo :facepalm:

sourdough
01-06-2020, 04:20 PM
My registration is my window sticker... 2/20 Medina County. There is no paper registration but the tax office may be able to provide this info since they charge based on this type info IF the LEO is willing to go through the trouble. I am a 4th degree amateur lawyer sooooooo :facepalm:


My registration is my window sticker as well, but.....it comes on a paper that has your actual registration along with your registered weight as I recall and it's recorded for that vehicle and up to us to know....or carry that paper (just pulled the original for the truck I just traded in out of it).:D As far as pulling all that info; they carry a little reader that they just read the code on the sticker and it gives them all your registration info along with insurance and coverages....pretty neat.

JRTJH
01-06-2020, 04:25 PM
My registration is my window sticker... 2/20 Medina County. There is no paper registration but the tax office may be able to provide this info since they charge based on this type info IF the LEO is willing to go through the trouble. I am a 4th degree amateur lawyer sooooooo :facepalm:

I'd bet you that while the LEO has your license and insurance and walks back to his car to "run your plates", the information that comes up on the laptop in his vehicle will have the "entire registration history" to go along with that 2/20 sticker on your window. Probably the reason they don't give you a paper copy any longer is because they already have it "in the system"... I'd bet that the "fees and weight declarations" are a part of what comes up when he punches in your license plate number....

In Michigan, they have much more than just your vehicle information. If you have a CPL, when an officer approaches your vehicle during a routine stop, you are required to state, "I have a CPL and I have (quantity) weapons in this vehicle." You can bet that when he's approaching you, he already knows your CPL status and all you're really doing is telling him if you're armed or not...…

It's amazing all the information they can pack into that little "folding box with a TV screen" that plugs into the officer's dash.....

tylerj1966
01-06-2020, 04:29 PM
Sorry if anyone thought this was a "baited" question. I thought this was a forum and open for discussion.

There seems to be more than one issue here and I have to disagree. I doubt very seriously there is any "legal liability" if I were to have an accident in a truck rated for 14k yet I've only paid for 10k worth of registration fees. This is simply a calculation a state uses to figure fees on how much wear and tear their highway gets. Yes, I might be in trouble with the state for not paying my fair share, but it in no way relates to what my vehicle can safely carry. I drive a big rig and trailer in California with a GVWR of 109,000 lbs. I can register said truck with the DMV for 40k, which barely covers the empty weight. Does that mean my vehicle is less capable, or more liable, or caused an accident because I was hauling something which put me over the registered weight of 40k? Don't get these issues confused. :facepalm:

My original question was about spec'ing down the GVW of a new pickup. The only difference between an F250 and 350 is a rear overload spring. I've read many times you guys telling people to simply go by the door sticker on whether their truck is overloaded or not. In the 250/350 example above, do you think if the overload spring (or airbags) were added to the 250, it would still be unsafe pulling the load of the 350?

As for being "regulated," every car driver is also "regulated" because they pay registration? If CHP pulled me over and told me he wanted to perform a safety/compliance inspection on my family car, I would laugh at him and ask to speak to his supervisor. If on the other hand, I was in a commercial vehicle I would comply. Cars and RVs are definitely unregulated, ie not subject to commercial vehicle regulations. A commercial operator would have to submit to being weighed; with an RV driver this might be a fifth amendment issue, but what do I know? I'm just a truck driver!

I've always had this "capability" question when reading everyone's advice to "go by the door sticker." Wouldn't people be better served if they were advised to add a few modifications instead of trading their F250 for a 350? Just my 2¢

tylerj1966
01-06-2020, 04:37 PM
I knew from the OPs first post and then his first response this was a baited question for an argument. Laws are laws, rules are rules. Be smart enough to follow them or don't - that's up to an individual. As has been pointed out, there are many ramifications that go with exceeding the registered weight of a vehicle - and it has ZERO to do with if you think it can carry more or not; the registration TELLS you what it can weigh.

I was just reading an excerpt from an officer with the TX DPS in Austin about the subject. His statement was that in the event of a citation or accident (yes tow vehicles and RVs are regulated) the trooper looks at the weight on the REGISTRATION of either vehicle....that is the determining factor. Keep in mind that will also be in play when you're sitting in court and the jury takes your money and home to pay for being obstinate. He went on to say that if a person wants their vehicle to be registered for a higher weight rating then they had to go to DMV, pay for it and have it documented on the registration. THEN you're covered. I am 100% positive that they will not care what you think in a court room nor will they care if you find a Ford "rep" that says other than your registration. You will be dealing with state laws and how the judge and jury interpret them....not you. As Brent says - "you pays your money and you takes your choice".

If you guys got lit up by this question, wait until I post about why my srw is more capable and can carry more than your dually!:D

CWtheMan
01-06-2020, 04:48 PM
GVW = Gross Vehicle Weight: A value that changes every time on-board weight is added or subtracted.

GVWR = Gross Vehicle Weight Rating: The maximum value a vehicle can weigh.

GCWR = Gross Combined Weight Rating: The maximum value a tow vehicle and a vehicle in tow can weigh. (The same tow vehicle can have different GCWRs when transmission gearing is increased/decreased.) However, neither vehicle, by itself, can exceed its GVWR.

Taxation by individual states differ considerably. Here in SC we are taxed by our actual GCWR. SC DOT vehicles carry individual wheel position scales. They weigh all wheel positions whenever a vehicle is suspected to be exceeding their GCWR.

sourdough
01-06-2020, 04:53 PM
If you guys got lit up by this question, wait until I post about why my srw is more capable and can carry more than your dually!:D


I'm not at all "lit up" about your question; only about your inability to understand. Sorry. Do what you need to do - you know the answers; just hope I'm not on the jury looking at you...oh wait, you're in CA...won't happen.:D

JRTJH
01-06-2020, 05:04 PM
Sorry if anyone thought this was a "baited" question. I thought this was a forum and open for discussion.

There seems to be more than one issue here and I have to disagree. I doubt very seriously there is any "legal liability" if I were to have an accident in a truck rated for 14k yet I've only paid for 10k worth of registration fees. This is simply a calculation a state uses to figure fees on how much wear and tear their highway gets. Yes, I might be in trouble with the state for not paying my fair share, but it in no way relates to what my vehicle can safely carry. I drive a big rig and trailer in California with a GVWR of 109,000 lbs. I can register said truck with the DMV for 40k, which barely covers the empty weight. Does that mean my vehicle is less capable, or more liable, or caused an accident because I was hauling something which put me over the registered weight of 40k? Don't get these issues confused. :facepalm:

My original question was about spec'ing down the GVW of a new pickup. The only difference between an F250 and 350 is a rear overload spring. I've read many times you guys telling people to simply go by the door sticker on whether their truck is overloaded or not. In the 250/350 example above, do you think if the overload spring (or airbags) were added to the 250, it would still be unsafe pulling the load of the 350?

As for being "regulated," every car driver is also "regulated" because they pay registration? If CHP pulled me over and told me he wanted to perform a safety/compliance inspection on my family car, I would laugh at him and ask to speak to his supervisor. If on the other hand, I was in a commercial vehicle I would comply. Cars and RVs are definitely unregulated, ie not subject to commercial vehicle regulations. A commercial operator would have to submit to being weighed; with an RV driver this might be a fifth amendment issue, but what do I know? I'm just a truck driver!

I've always had this "capability" question when reading everyone's advice to "go by the door sticker." Wouldn't people be better served if they were advised to add a few modifications instead of trading their F250 for a 350? Just my 2¢

I'll color code for clarity:

RED: You're wrong. Check the Ford build guide. Rear axles are different, and in the case of the F250 gas, the transmission is also different. There are likely many other differences as well, so a blanket statement about an overload spring is incorrect.

GREEN: If you laugh at a LEO around here and give him a hard time about discussing things with his supervisor, you'll get a free ride to the supervisor's office (in handcuffs). The job of enforcing the law is hard enough without "*-holes" giving officers a hard time about stupid stuff.

BLUE: Not if the suggestion to add modifications would put that member in a situation where he could be sued or fined and found guilty of violating a law in the state where his vehicle is registered and/or where he is stopped or involved in an accident. You've got to remember that there are 50 states and all 50 have laws that make each state different from all the others. What's legal for you may well get another member in a different state locked up for 10 years (figuratively speaking). Giving "blanket information about how to beat the system" is just not in the best interest of this forum and it doesn't serve the membership with "honest, reliable information" that they can rely on to be accurate and applicable to their situation. YMMV.

CWtheMan
01-06-2020, 05:24 PM
People seem to want to inject manufacturing technicalities into vehicle weight threads. It's a moot argument that cannot explain the vehicle manufacturer's decision for certifying a specific GVWR to their vehicles. That GVWR is not set in stone but it's going to cost you to get it changed, because the only ones authorized to change a vehicle certification label are vehicle manufacturers or certified vehicle modifiers.

chuckster57
01-06-2020, 06:18 PM
No you can’t refuse to let the CHP weigh you as far as I know. There are pick up trucks with portable scales and they are pulling over RV’s on the highway and weighing them. The other thing in Ca is the “travel trailer endorsement” on your license. Don’t have it? You can be forced to unhook and leave it until you do.

Having a CDL trumps the endorsement, but not the weight or getting weighed at any random point on the highway.

I never said a lowered GVWR truck is less capable, what I said was if the truck came from the factory with a higher GVWR and the buyer chooses to register it at a lower GVWR, he/she runs the risk of fines if weighed, that’s ALL I SAID.

In the end we all make choices, and I chose to register my truck at its FACTORY GVWR.

sourdough
01-06-2020, 07:13 PM
Sorry if anyone thought this was a "baited" question. I thought this was a forum and open for discussion.

There seems to be more than one issue here and I have to disagree. I doubt very seriously there is any "legal liability" if I were to have an accident in a truck rated for 14k yet I've only paid for 10k worth of registration fees. This is simply a calculation a state uses to figure fees on how much wear and tear their highway gets. Yes, I might be in trouble with the state for not paying my fair share, but it in no way relates to what my vehicle can safely carry. I drive a big rig and trailer in California with a GVWR of 109,000 lbs. I can register said truck with the DMV for 40k, which barely covers the empty weight. Does that mean my vehicle is less capable, or more liable, or caused an accident because I was hauling something which put me over the registered weight of 40k? Don't get these issues confused. :facepalm:

My original question was about spec'ing down the GVW of a new pickup. The only difference between an F250 and 350 is a rear overload spring. I've read many times you guys telling people to simply go by the door sticker on whether their truck is overloaded or not. In the 250/350 example above, do you think if the overload spring (or airbags) were added to the 250, it would still be unsafe pulling the load of the 350?

As for being "regulated," every car driver is also "regulated" because they pay registration? If CHP pulled me over and told me he wanted to perform a safety/compliance inspection on my family car, I would laugh at him and ask to speak to his supervisor. If on the other hand, I was in a commercial vehicle I would comply. Cars and RVs are definitely unregulated, ie not subject to commercial vehicle regulations. A commercial operator would have to submit to being weighed; with an RV driver this might be a fifth amendment issue, but what do I know? I'm just a truck driver!

I've always had this "capability" question when reading everyone's advice to "go by the door sticker." Wouldn't people be better served if they were advised to add a few modifications instead of trading their F250 for a 350? Just my 2¢


I told myself I would not respond further to "silliness" but thought about the OPs remark above; how exactly is a truck "rated" for 14k (in the OPs mind) yet agreed to, and registered legally, for 10k but the 14k is actually the "real" number based on ??? How does LEO know? A jury or judge? Call in the OPs manufacturer expert? (Won't happen). Take the OPs superior knowledge of towing vs the registered gvwr that the OP agreed to or law?

This is just BS trying to misguide our members and cause confusion IMO. Are there ambiguities in the laws? Most certainly. Do we take it on ourselves to try to "self interpret" them and disregard them because we will just laugh at the trooper at the door demanding x? That's just not in the realm of reality unless you want to spend a of time in what would have been an easy situation...or worse. My last comment to this silliness.

Bolo4u
01-06-2020, 07:51 PM
Disclaimer: I just retired from ~30 years as an LEO, the last ~25 with the CHP.

The physical capabilities of a 14000 GVWR truck is the same whether the additional weight fees are paid to the DMV or not.

Basically, you're paying an administrative fee to carry more weight than a pickup registered at 10000 GVWR. There is also a GCW calculation, but that's getting more in the weeds. Trucks weighing LESS than 8001 pounds and with a GVWR UNDER 11499 pounds are exempt.

Bottom line, you are not obligated to pay the additional fees on a 14000 GVWR truck, -but- if you get caught exceeding the baseline of 10000, and are issued a citation, then stand by for significant back fees, fines and penalties.

If your Ram 35000 Dually weighs 8450 empty, on a scale, then you can put about 1550 pounds in the bed before you are in danger of exceeding the baseline weight fees you paid. Generally, unless you're operating in commerce or for profit, then you likely won't have an issue. However, there are some larger municipalities who do have their own "commercial enforcement" operation and they may zing you if you're hauling a pallet or two of ready-mix concrete home from Home Depot.

This form explains it fairly simply: https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/wcm/connect/1ee248d3-8577-45dd-afca-7206e349d4c7/reg4008.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CVID=

flybouy
01-06-2020, 07:53 PM
Danny, silly is a good descriptor for the OP's points.

It's silly to think you can circumvent the tax code, brag about it publically, then think there wouldn't be any ramifications by a good injury lawyer.

It's silly to think that RV's are not regulated because they aren't regulated as commercial vehicles. A bicycle is regulated as far as highways are concerned.

It's silly to think anyone would believe that playing Mr. Bad A$$ roadside attorney will play well with any LEO.

It's silly to think that driving an overloaded is only against regulations if it's a commercial vehicle that must stop at the weigh scales.

I think it's silly when people tell me what the law means or how it will be enforced without checking with the governing body. I've never been charged with tax evasion but from the reports of several politicians in this state (MD) that have it sounds very serious.

The OP's point that this is a forum and open to opinions is correct and I've given my opinion.

chuckster57
01-06-2020, 08:00 PM
Disclaimer: I just retired from ~30 years as an LEO, the last ~25 with the CHP.



The physical capabilities of a 14000 GVWR truck is the same whether the additional weight fees are paid to the DMV or not.



Basically, you're paying an administrative fee to carry more weight than a pickup registered at 10000 GVWR. There is also a GCW calculation, but that's getting more in the weeds. Trucks weighing LESS than 8001 pounds and with a GVWR UNDER 11499 pounds are exempt.



Bottom line, you are not obligated to pay the additional fees on a 14000 GVWR truck, -but- if you get caught exceeding the baseline of 10000, and are issued a citation, then stand by for significant back fees, fines and penalties.



If your Ram 35000 Dually weighs 8450 empty, on a scale, then you can put about 1550 pounds in the bed before you are in danger of exceeding the baseline weight fees you paid. Generally, unless you're operating in commerce or for profit, then you likely won't have an issue. However, there are some larger municipalities who do have their own "commercial enforcement" operation and they may zing you if you're hauling a pallet or two of ready-mix concrete home from Home Depot.



This form explains it fairly simply: https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/wcm/connect/1ee248d3-8577-45dd-afca-7206e349d4c7/reg4008.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CVID=



I was hoping you would see this thread and comment. Thank you, since I was at the “end of the road” so to speak in the Law enforcement realm I didn’t need to be as versed in the “rules of the road” as those who enforced them, just the ones that applied to me.

I have personal knowledge of people having their RV impounded while traveling to/from a camping destination. It can ruin your plans, that’s for sure.

Bolo4u
01-06-2020, 08:01 PM
Sorry if anyone thought this was a "baited" question. I thought this was a forum and open for discussion.

There seems to be more than one issue here and I have to disagree. I doubt very seriously there is any "legal liability" if I were to have an accident in a truck rated for 14k yet I've only paid for 10k worth of registration fees. This is simply a calculation a state uses to figure fees on how much wear and tear their highway gets. Yes, I might be in trouble with the state for not paying my fair share, but it in no way relates to what my vehicle can safely carry. I drive a big rig and trailer in California with a GVWR of 109,000 lbs. I can register said truck with the DMV for 40k, which barely covers the empty weight. Does that mean my vehicle is less capable, or more liable, or caused an accident because I was hauling something which put me over the registered weight of 40k? Don't get these issues confused. :facepalm:

My original question was about spec'ing down the GVW of a new pickup. The only difference between an F250 and 350 is a rear overload spring. I've read many times you guys telling people to simply go by the door sticker on whether their truck is overloaded or not. In the 250/350 example above, do you think if the overload spring (or airbags) were added to the 250, it would still be unsafe pulling the load of the 350?

As for being "regulated," every car driver is also "regulated" because they pay registration? If CHP pulled me over and told me he wanted to perform a safety/compliance inspection on my family car, I would laugh at him and ask to speak to his supervisor. If on the other hand, I was in a commercial vehicle I would comply. Cars and RVs are definitely unregulated, ie not subject to commercial vehicle regulations. A commercial operator would have to submit to being weighed; with an RV driver this might be a fifth amendment issue, but what do I know? I'm just a truck driver!

I've always had this "capability" question when reading everyone's advice to "go by the door sticker." Wouldn't people be better served if they were advised to add a few modifications instead of trading their F250 for a 350? Just my 2¢

And as a supervisor, I would respond and inform you the officer is well within their legal authority to do so, if they can articulate the reason why. You might want to read Vehicle Code Section 2804: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=VEH&sectionNum=2804.

Ken / Claudia
01-06-2020, 08:05 PM
In this state post #15, the first paragraph about being cited for being heavier than paid for license but under GVWR is a common ticket ONLY on COMM TRUCKS. Think of a f550 GVWR of 17,500 and paying for 10,000 lbs to save money. Than I see it, loaded cab high, 16 ft long 2x6s, I run the plate and DMV says It paid for 10,000 lbs he gets a ticket. For improper wt. registration. If the wt. is above that's been paid for.
Back to NON COMM, I no longer work for OSP and have not weighted vehicles in about 10 years. I did as other troopers should still do, check wts for vehicles when possible that appear over wt.
OSP has, I carried them, portable scales. 1st check is whats the tire say, than check the VIN sticker or yellow sticker to learn GVWR. Allowed 1,000 over on GVWR before a cite.
Here we did not have passenger pickups licensed by wt. COMM PICKUPS yes if over 10,000. All Comm vehicles must allow wt. checked. Or be cited for not allowing the check. In my case never did 1 Comm truck not allow me to check the weight.
I am sure other states have very different laws about those things.
The CIVIL law side of overweight. Don't think for 1 second there are not lawyers ready and willing to take cases where the TV/RV was way over weight and killed or serious injury was done by that combo. How do they know the weights, they will be checked during the crash reconstruction along with every other part of the vehicles that have to do with safety.

Bolo4u
01-06-2020, 08:07 PM
No you can’t refuse to let the CHP weigh you as far as I know. There are pick up trucks with portable scales and they are pulling over RV’s on the highway and weighing them. The other thing in Ca is the “travel trailer endorsement” on your license. Don’t have it? You can be forced to unhook and leave it until you do.

Having a CDL trumps the endorsement, but not the weight or getting weighed at any random point on the highway.

I never said a lowered GVWR truck is less capable, what I said was if the truck came from the factory with a higher GVWR and the buyer chooses to register it at a lower GVWR, he/she runs the risk of fines if weighed, that’s ALL I SAID.

In the end we all make choices, and I chose to register my truck at its FACTORY GVWR.

To expand on the license endorsement issue. Yes a class A (commercial license in California) is good for most everything being driven - RV wise.

Any travel trailer over 10000 GVWR requires a non-commercial class A, which is a written and skills test.

A 10000-15000 GVWR 5th wheel is simply an endorsement on the class C (regular vehicle license) and its just a written test.

5th wheels over 15000 GVWR require a non commercial class A.

tylerj1966
01-06-2020, 08:10 PM
Disclaimer: I just retired from ~30 years as an LEO, the last ~25 with the CHP.

The physical capabilities of a 14000 GVWR truck is the same whether the additional weight fees are paid to the DMV or not.

Basically, you're paying an administrative fee to carry more weight than a pickup registered at 10000 GVWR. There is also a GCW calculation, but that's getting more in the weeds. Trucks weighing LESS than 8001 pounds and with a GVWR UNDER 11499 pounds are exempt.

Bottom line, you are not obligated to pay the additional fees on a 14000 GVWR truck, -but- if you get caught exceeding the baseline of 10000, and are issued a citation, then stand by for significant back fees, fines and penalties.

If your Ram 35000 Dually weighs 8450 empty, on a scale, then you can put about 1550 pounds in the bed before you are in danger of exceeding the baseline weight fees you paid. Generally, unless you're operating in commerce or for profit, then you likely won't have an issue. However, there are some larger municipalities who do have their own "commercial enforcement" operation and they may zing you if you're hauling a pallet or two of ready-mix concrete home from Home Depot.

This form explains it fairly simply: https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/wcm/connect/1ee248d3-8577-45dd-afca-7206e349d4c7/reg4008.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CVID=

I understand that completely but everyone has misunderstood my question and scenario. I'm not trying to get around any DMV fees nor am I advertising it publicly.

Has anyone visited The Ford website and used the "build and price" option lately? Ford offers to have trucks spec'd with a lower (10k) GVWR as an option. So when this truck is then registered with DMV, the registration fee is less than if the truck has a GVWR of 14k. There's nothing illegal about this. My original question was, does everyone think this de-rated F350 is built differently or less capable/safe than other F350s?

Bolo4u
01-06-2020, 08:11 PM
If you guys got lit up by this question, wait until I post about why my srw is more capable and can carry more than your dually!:D

We're all eyes.... waiting for you to impart your years of wisdom and educate us. :popcorn:

tylerj1966
01-06-2020, 08:15 PM
We're all eyes.... waiting for you to impart your years of wisdom and educate us. :popcorn:

In due time... I'm still trying to get this topic back on track.

Bolo4u
01-06-2020, 08:17 PM
I understand that completely but everyone has misunderstood my question and scenario. I'm not trying to get around any DMV fees nor am I advertising it publicly.

Has anyone visited The Ford website and used the "build and price" option lately? Ford offers to have trucks spec'd with a lower (10k) GVWR as an option. So when this truck is then registered with DMV, the registration fee is less than if the truck has a GVWR of 14k. There's nothing illegal about this. My original question was, does everyone think this de-rated F350 is built differently or less capable/safe than other F350s?

I completely understand your original question. Yes I'm fully aware Ford does offer a de-rated GVWR build option. As far as components or other mechanical factors during assembly, you'd have to contact them and find out. ASSUMING the say - 14,000 GVWR truck is de-rated to 10,000 through ordering, and all they do is apply a different federal label, then mechanically it should be the same wether the sticker says 14,000 or 10,000.

I purchased a new 14000 gooseneck trailer and it sat on the dealer lot until the 9990 GVWR de-rated sticker i paid for was sent from the factory. Yes the trailer is still a 14,000 capable trailer, in fact, the original GVWR federal sticker is under the de-rated sticker.

Bolo4u
01-06-2020, 08:17 PM
In due time... I'm still trying to get this topic back on track.

It was always on track, it just never left the station.:lol:

chuckster57
01-06-2020, 08:20 PM
IMy original question was, does everyone think this de-rated F350 is built differently or less capable/safe than other F350s?

I don’t think anyone on this forum is an automotive engineer and can answer what components may or may not be in a “derated” truck. My thought my answer was simple enough. If the truck comes from the factory with a “rated” GVWR of 14,000 lbs and you CHOOSE to pay the weight fees for 10,000 pounds, then just be prepared to pay if your weighed and found to be over.

If the truck comes from the factory with a 10,000 pound rating, then again your legally bound to stay within the limits. Your trying to twist my response and I’m not here to argue. My response was in my opinion as fair and honest as anyone else here. I’m done, have fun doing as you please and I hope I never have to share the highway with you weather your in your OTR truck or pulling your RV.

tylerj1966
01-06-2020, 08:33 PM
It was always on track, it just never left the station.:lol:

I think you're the only one. I've got everyone else riled up.

One more question: Let's assume your new gooseneck trailer weighs 6k with the 9900 GVWR. You're hauling 6000 lbs of lumber on that trailer. What's the penalty?

Everyone else went off on a liability discussion to which I stated I didn't see any liability since the vehicle was designed to carry the weight.

Bolo4u
01-06-2020, 08:40 PM
I think you're the only one. I've got everyone else riled up.

One more question: Let's assume your new gooseneck trailer weighs 6k with the 9900 GVWR. You're hauling 6000 lbs of lumber on that trailer. What's the penalty?

Everyone else went off on a liability discussion to which I stated I didn't see any liability since the vehicle was designed to carry the weight.

Since the trailer would be within its original specs, I would be on the hook for whatever the penalty is for operating without the proper driver license. Towing a utility trailer that weighs 10000 GVWR, even empty, requires a class A (commercial) driver license As long as I don't exceed 10000 (9990) GVWR on the trailer I'm good with a class C.

tylerj1966
01-06-2020, 08:51 PM
Since the trailer would be within its original specs, I would be on the hook for whatever the penalty is for operating without the proper driver license. Towing a utility trailer that weighs 10000 GVWR, even empty, requires a class A (commercial) driver license As long as I don't exceed 10000 (9990) GVWR on the trailer I'm good with a class C.

I realize this is a gray area, But doesn't the law state you need a class A for a trailer with a GVWR in excess of 10k? In my overload scenario, you are still a class C driver operating a trailer with a rating less than 10K even though your trailer now weighs 12k. I would guess you could be cited for the overweight but not the DL issue. Am I wrong?

Bolo4u
01-06-2020, 08:59 PM
I realize this is a gray area, But doesn't the law state you need a class A for a trailer with a GVWR in excess of 10k? In my overload scenario, you are still a class C driver operating a trailer with a rating less than 10K even though your trailer now weighs 12k. I would guess you could be cited for the overweight but not the DL issue. Am I wrong?



My answer stands.

bsmith0404
01-06-2020, 09:28 PM
Well this has been entertaining to read. I know in the state of NM, when I had my dually with a 13,000 GVWR I was given the option to register at 10,000. If I had exceeded the 10,000 the. I could have been cited for exceeding registered weight limits. As for my license and truck/RV GCVWR, if they exceed 26,000, then I require a class E license which basically is for personal RV use and is simply a form filled out at the MVD stating that.

However, non of that info has anything to do with the OP question. To tell you the truth, I have no idea what Ford does, if they change anything on the de-rated trucks.

CWtheMan
01-06-2020, 09:45 PM
One more question: Let's assume your new gooseneck trailer weighs 6k with the 9900 GVWR. You're hauling 6000 lbs of lumber on that trailer. What's the penalty?



The tow vehicle is just carrying the tongue weight. The trailer is carrying the rest. If both are within their own GVWR and the tow vehicle is within its GCWR there is no violations.

tylerj1966
01-06-2020, 10:02 PM
I don’t think anyone on this forum is an automotive engineer and can answer what components may or may not be in a “derated” truck. My thought my answer was simple enough. If the truck comes from the factory with a “rated” GVWR of 14,000 lbs and you CHOOSE to pay the weight fees for 10,000 pounds, then just be prepared to pay if your weighed and found to be over.

If the truck comes from the factory with a 10,000 pound rating, then again your legally bound to stay within the limits. Your trying to twist my response and I’m not here to argue. My response was in my opinion as fair and honest as anyone else here. I’m done, have fun doing as you please and I hope I never have to share the highway with you weather your in your OTR truck or pulling your RV.

That's a shame. I've picked up many stranded people and given free rides to the repair shop. I'm in Modesto several times a week. If you ever break down in the Central Valley please hold up a sign so I know its you, and I'll drive right by.:rolleyes:

Bolo4u
01-06-2020, 10:24 PM
The tow vehicle is just carrying the tongue weight. The trailer is carrying the rest. If both are within their own GVWR and the tow vehicle is within its GCWR there is no violations.



His question was based on being overweight on a derated trailer. In his scenario, I'd be about 2000 over the GVWR of the derated trailer and could be outside a class C license limit.

tylerj1966
01-06-2020, 10:42 PM
His question was based on being overweight on a derated trailer. In his scenario, I'd be about 2000 over the GVWR of the derated trailer and could be outside a class C license limit.

I think this is an unfortunate issue in these forums. The laws are different in each state and what goes here might not fly over there.

But I will give you props for answering my questions from a "California point of view."

JRTJH
01-06-2020, 10:54 PM
Since the OP states his question has been answered and the thread has been, at best contentious, it's closed to further comment.