Cougar: earlier 2020 26RKS or updated 2020 26RKS

[dremcomtru]

Hi, New Member seeking thoughts/guidance. :)

Hubby and I will be buying a 2020 Cougar 26RKS. In searching all states there aren't many around and we're willing to drive if the savings is decent.
We will park and somewhat live in it on our property in California and also take it out exploring. Hoping later we can do some boondocking.

We got a price to order the updated 2020 from Haylett in Michigan. (love Josh The RV Nerd's youtube channel) that so far is $6K less than the California quotes...still waiting on another quote.

Our tow vehicle is 2015 Ford F-150 3.5L eco boost, 3.31 axles, 4weel drive, super crew cab, short bed
Were about 2205 miles away. Depending on timing we could make a trip out of it, we have family in Ohio.
About what should I figure for gas per mile to determine if the drive is worth it?

I found an earlier 2020 26rks 4 hours away, in stock, about the same price as Haylett and has the options I want (storm color, fireplace, theater seats) but isn't the updated 2020.
There's minor differences in the earlier 2020 vs the updated 2020...

The updated 2020:
Theater Seat has power reclining and usb ports at each arm
Household outlets on the dinette bottom (helpful for our laptops)
Blinds are no longer honey comb but wooden like slats (easier to clean)
Different wall paper on bedroom windshield wall, (a much nicer accent)
Valance in bedroom looks nicer as does the comforter
Has the new Off The Grid (OTG) solar camping package option.


On the earlier 2020 I asked if it had the solar prep and was told: "It has the solar panel plug and play with a portable solar panel. The 26rks is priced aggressively for a quick sell, just 1 of 2 we had. The other one delivered a few days ago."

I don't see the portable as an option on Keystone's website. Perhaps the dealer added it. Now that I think about it I'm positive all the 2020's have solar prep.

This earlier 2020 rig does have electric stabilizer jacks which I would not have gotten and not sure i want.
What are your thoughts on having the electric stabilizer jacks...are they helpful? Necessary?

If we order the updated 2020, we're considering the new Cougar OTG Solar package for $1500.
Does anyone know anything about this option, if it's a decent package?
Would it be better to get the package so it's warrantied by keystone or buy something aftermarket at a later time?

So, I'm just not sure if we should jump on the earlier 2020 4 hours away (if still there we plan to go look at it in a couple days) or order an updated 2020.

Thank you for any help/insight you can provide!
Here's some links:

Earlier 2020 Cougar 26RKS
https://www.keystonerv.com/travel-trailers/cougar-half-ton/floorplans/26rks-travel-trailer/

Updated 2020 Cougar 26RKS
https://www.bobhurleyrv.com/inv/2020-Keystone-Cougar-Half-Ton-26RKS-R5103/#mainpic

Cougar optional solar package
https://www.keystonerv.com/fifth-wheels/cougar/solar/

[Northofu1]

You might want to think about your tow vehicle. The tongue weight on that trailer is between 1,056 and 1320 lbs., that's 12 to 15% of the trailers 8800 lb GVWR. That is without a weight distribution hitch with sway control, the weight of passengers and belongings in truck.
I would check the payload listed on your truck on the tire and loading information sticker on the drivers door post. You will be at or over the max capacity of the truck.

There will be a host of comments on here about your weights.
The two big positives are that you haven't purchased the trailer yet, and you're here seeking advice.

oh ya,,, :wlcm: from Toronto

[Brantlyj]

For all things F150 I would head over to f150forum.com. There is a trailering sub-section that could answer your mileage questions.

Regardless of mileage if you like your relatives your knocking out two birds with one stone. Plus you can have an adventure traveling home.

[hankpage]

If you have any warranty problems the 4 hour drive may make a big difference in the way you feel about the earlier model. If you can live with the differences I would go for the closest one. Hank

[travelin texans]

Figure 8 mpg, maybe less, with that heavy of RV on that small of truck across the mountains.
As Dan mentioned you want to do some ciphering on the truck & RV weights before you go much further.
Couple bits of advice, the "dry weight" of the RV tells you nothing, all calculations from the GVWR of the RV, also the "max tow" weight of your truck is also a useless number, use the payload & tire/axle weights from the stickers of "your" truck posted on the drivers door jamb. DO NOT take your truck dealers or the RV dealers word about towing that RV with your truck, their only objective is to sell you something, do your own calculations or post the actual numbers here for useful honest help, you may not like the answers from here, but they will be from folks that have been there done that.
To be honest I'd buy close to home as you WILL need warranty work & your local dealer is not obligated to do it if you've saved a couple bucks buying across the country.
Good luck! Welcome aboard!

[dremcomtru]

Thank you all so very much for the useful information.

In regards to the payload, I thought we had it made but we did get the info from the dealers. :)
I've included a few pictures.

Hope this works out, we need the king bed and that's the big reason we chose the cougar. Also like their zero degree rating for our hot summers.
I don't like the next lowest model 24sabwe on sold on west coast and am hoping not to have to go down to the 22rbs. I don't think another tow vehicle would be an option.

The closest dealer is 2 hours away, so far highest price and says he'll price match if I satisfy his paperwork needs of another dealer quote.

We do have an auto and RV service place here in town that works on RV's so I thought I would be safe where ever we bought it. It's a Mom and Pop shop as we're in a small mountain town but he's worked on them for years. Would that suffice?

[Ken / Claudia]

My guess is after reading through the posts is no matter what with that TT and that truck you will not be happy due to issues and near or over the trucks abilities. I see you buying a better tow vehicle soon after pulling that trailer.
As an example check out my signature. I will not say you need a 1 ton but likely a 2/3 ton. My trailer is smaller, Keystone said 560 tongue wt. it's really 920 when I checked it at a scale. I air up my rear tires from empty wt. at 65 psi to 80 psi to handle the load. Those tires listed on the wt. sticker cannot get anywhere to that level of tire pressure. My opinion not made for towing a TT.
My main point is, as it sounds like you have not owned or pulled a RV before. Do not buy any RV until you conduct a full PDI. That means you sit in every seat stand at the stove and stink, sit on the toilet, stand in shower, open every cabinet, lay on the bed. It's worth being in it several hours to see the big picture the floor plans do not cover.
I have owned 9 RVs, this last 1 we still spend 2-3 hours just looking over everything. Made a list of missing, broken stuff that needed to be written up to fix before sale.
Go back through some posts on here about new buyers who liked the floor plan and after the 1st use, hate xx and xx and xx. If you travel to buy it along ways away. Best to plan on 1 or 2 nights camping in it at a nearby place 1st. You will find more stuff you did not think about that might and likely need fixed. You will have questions about how somethings work because you cannot figure them out. This site is great for asking questions to help get though some of those things.
I am trying to get you to a point that after you spend your hard earned money, you do not have buyers remorse. And have a safe fun RV adventure.

[flybouy]

In my opinion it's too much trailer for your truck.
Empty wt. of camper is NEVER realized after it leaves the factory as that number doesn't include battery, propane, or anything else that you pack into it.
The real number? Well the gross is 10K. Take 12% and you have 1,200 lb tongue wt., i.e. 1,200 lb of wt the truck will have to support. Add another 100 lb for the weight distributing hitch. Now Your at 1,350 lb that comes off your 1903 load capacity in your pic. So how much will the stuff you put in the truck weight? Fuel? People? Pets? Food? Tools? Floor mats? (anything that did not come from the factory that you add including a map in glove box comes off that factory combine weight capacity) Can you fit all that in under 553 lb.? 39 gal fuel tank weights 288 lbs. So that leaves 245 lbs. for everything else.
The "Half Ton" moniker is a "model". Read the disclosures on the Keystone website.
"*Throughout the year, Keystone RV may modify model features, floor plans, and specifications. Website data typically reflects the most recent production run, however, any or all of these items are subject to change without notice. Please check with your dealer to for the details specific to the unit you are purchasing. You should also read all labels that are on each trailer for information concerning the safe operation of the unit and its components, actual weight(s), cargo carrying capacity, and tire information.

MAKE SURE YOUR TOW VEHICLE IS COMPATIBLE WITH YOUR KEYSTONE RV. Consult with a motor vehicle manufacturer or dealer concerning the purchase and use of suitable tow vehicles for Keystone products. Owners of Keystone recreational vehicles are solely responsible for the selection and proper use of tow vehicles.

For more information about our products, click here to review the Keystone Owner’s Manual. You will find information about the safe operation and use of various systems, Keystone service warranties and how to obtain service, extended use, towing, and maintenance. Before you buy a Keystone, you might also want to review component and appliance manuals which you can find in the trailer.

**Length is defined as the distance from the centerline of hitch pin/coupler to rear bumper of trailer."

[travelin texans]

From your weights posted you have 1903 lbs of payload. To help you understand, use that number then subtract from it all people, pets, added accessories to the truck, tools/toolbox, anything in the bed of the truck, the WDH/sway control & the near 1000 lbs of tongue weight from either of the RVs you listed.
Sorry to disappoint you but you don't have enough truck for those RVs.

[dremcomtru]

Thank you so much for all of your continued input and support.

Oh boy, I'm feeling overwhelmed but better now in a nice way than later in a bad situation. Its nice to avoid the train wreck!

Just got off the phone with yet another dealer who says they wouldn't sell it to us if it was not a good fit.

I've got some work to do then I can get on with more research and understanding. I need to digest the numbers and information you are giving me and truly understand.

I'm so appreciative, thank you so much!

[flybouy]

The good folks here are sincerely trying to help. Most us us (raise my hand) have "been there done that" with the process of have a truck then buy a camper. Oops! Camper is too big buy a bigger truck. Some of us didn't learn the first time and had to "rinse and repeat" to get it. We see so many that end up on the forum AFTER the fact asking what they can do because the truck or tow vehicle sways so bad. Some people will never admit they made a mistake and tell you it's o.k. because they do it. So read, enjoy and realise that everyone has different experiences, expectations, knowledge and opinions.
You are taking the right step by doing your due diligence by reading and researching. I hope you find a good "fit" for your needs and are able to begin your adventures.

[Tbos]

I towed a lighter trailer with a Chevrolet 1500. The trailer weighed in at 7500 loaded and 32’ tip to tail. I put truck tires with higher payload on it. I was within payload of the truck, tow capacity, axle ratings and combined gross vehicle weight. I used a properly adjusted 4 point WDH equalizer hitch. The truck pulled it and stopped with no issues. HOWEVER, when the wind blew or a big truck passed you had to hang on. That big sail in the shape of a box on wheels would shake that truck.

My point is you can be within all the limits and it might still not be a pleasure to drive. Find out if a local dealer will let you take a similar trailer for a test drive. Maybe rent one for the weekend and see how you feel towing. If you are like most of us you will upgrade tow vehicle and RV at sometime. I now own a dually and a 5th wheel. FYI, the dually never flinched in the wind or when passed towing the previously mentioned trailer. Good luck in you decision. You are doing the right thing by researching.

[wiredgeorge]

Thank you so much for all of your continued input and support.

Oh boy, I'm feeling overwhelmed but better now in a nice way than later in a bad situation. Its nice to avoid the train wreck!

Just got off the phone with yet another dealer who says they wouldn't sell it to us if it was not a good fit.

I've got some work to do then I can get on with more research and understanding. I need to digest the numbers and information you are giving me and truly understand.

I'm so appreciative, thank you so much!

Just a suggestion... do your own research and NEVER rely on a salesperson to provide ANY information you can't verify independently. The sales staff at most RV places are not RVers and probably have never stayed in one and certainly don't understand campers or towing in general. I suggest you find someone close by, a friend, relative or even pay a mobile RV tech to come do the PDI with you. You will NEVER find things that are not right if you are not familiar with trailers.

Why is it important to find things before the final signature? You can hold the dealer's feet to the fire to get them fixed. As soon as you drive out of the lot after putting your signature on paper, a common theme here on this forum is for a new owner to be forgotten by the seller.

I won't lecture you on your tow vehicle. Don't understand your finances nor plans for camping in the future but if you are half serious about camping, the right truck is a must. I buy trucks cheap and put money into them to get them right rather than financing. My current clunker is a 2006 which I bought for $7K and have put appx. $3K into to make everything 100 percent. Some folks like the smell of new vehicles where that smell depresses me as I think about payments when I get a sniff. :whistling:

[Customer1]

Earlier this summer we traveled 930 miles to buy a leftover 2018 because it had what we wanted. Years from now when you have the trailer you want, the expense of your drive will be forgotten.

I don't like electric stabilizers, they are slower than using a battery powered drill with manual stabilizers and the switch is often in an awkward position. Get auto leveling if you can, it's great.

Budget for a replacement truck, you'll want it after towing that trailer. You want a tow vehicle that is safe on the worst day in the worst conditions. A truck that gets wagged by its tail is no fun to travel in. Note the truck in my signature.

[Ken / Claudia]

I must admit being over loaded for the tow vehicle several times when much younger. I tried better shocks, better tires, better hitches and had to replace 2 different transmissions, broken ring and pinion in 1 rear end, ruined rear axle bearings and had broken u joints by towing to heavy in several different vehicles. Yeah, been there done that. Todays 1/2 tons are better than any I owned, but still 1/2 tons.

[dremcomtru]

I’m researching and trying to understand. I am usually able to research and know the ins and outs of vehicles. While I can point out differences of the models this requires my Hubs to get involved.

I guess I thought when I researched our truck and saw its tow capacity of 10,700 lbs and the trailer at 6626 lbs that there wouldn’t be a problem.

I’ve notified two dealers and they are trying to help but at this point I want to be educated and know what I’m talking about before moving forward. I’ll do just that and come back with additional questions and support.

Thank you very much for your honesty and sharing your experiences. I hope one day I can join you by sharing and giving back!

[travelin texans]

I guess I thought when I researched our truck and saw its tow capacity of 10,700 lbs and the trailer at 6626 lbs that there wouldn’t be a problem.

I’ve notified two dealers and they are trying to help but at this point I want to be educated and know what I’m talking about before moving forward. I’ll do just that and come back with additional questions and support.


The tow capacity you've posted is limited to the payload of your truck, in most cases the you will exceed the payload LONG before you'll ever reach the max tow.
The 6626 lb RV is the "dry weight" of this particular RV & once it rolled out the factory door will NEVER weigh that again & you, nor anyone else, will NEVER EVER tow it at that weight.
Whatever RV you may look at will have manufacturers label on the drivers side front corner with information including the GVWR of that RV, use this number to figure any weights for your truck. Typically a TT has a 10-15% of GVWR tongue weight, that comes off the truck payload & a 5th is 20-25% the RV GVWR.
It's a very good idea for you to be educated on these weights as dealers are there to sell something to you & a good portion of them have no experience in this information, but do have experience in sales which is their ultimate goal.
If you want an accurate truck weight, load it up with everyone, everything you would in it to haul an RV somewhere then head to a truck stop with Cat scales & weigh it, cost you about $12 & you have a gross weight & both axle weights & a true measure of what RV you could haul. I think you'd be surprised at how quickly that 1900 lb payload gets used up.

[Brantlyj]

I’m researching and trying to understand. I am usually able to research and know the ins and outs of vehicles. While I can point out differences of the models this requires my Hubs to get involved.

I guess I thought when I researched our truck and saw its tow capacity of 10,700 lbs and the trailer at 6626 lbs that there wouldn’t be a problem.

I’ve notified two dealers and they are trying to help but at this point I want to be educated and know what I’m talking about before moving forward. I’ll do just that and come back with additional questions and support.

Thank you very much for your honesty and sharing your experiences. I hope one day I can join you by sharing and giving back!


I might also add, and this is strictly a personal opinion, that even if you are within all your weight ratings that 3.31 axle ratio is to low to tow anything over 5000lbs.
The eco boost will help a bit over the 5.0 but the transmission will be all over the place with that low of a ratio. You need at minimum the 3.55 and of course the 3.73 would be the best.

[dremcomtru]

Hi All,

I'm working on some calculations and am starting to understand the lingo. :)

I received this email today and wanted to run it by you since were buying a TT and not a 5th wheel...just want to be sure. :)

Email from dealer:
Hi Nicole, a trucks payload is "only" considered if you plan on loading a 5th wheel hitch or placing dirtbikes, atvs etc on that part of the bed.

A travel trailers tongue weight is a different part of the system. 810lbs on a 1000lb bumber rating is perfect especially when you'll have a weight distribution system installed. We've done 1000s of trailers and we know our stuff.
Also please talk with other dealerships service professionals to confirm what I'm sayin as they will also agree. Also please refer to your Trucks GCVWR. That's your trucks combined vehicle weight RATING Truck and Trailer.

Is he just trying to sell me on the rig?

[Brantlyj]

Hi All,

I'm working on some calculations and am starting to understand the lingo. :)

I received this email today and wanted to run it by you since were buying a TT and not a 5th wheel...just want to be sure. :)

Email from dealer:
Hi Nicole, a trucks payload is "only" considered if you plan on loading a 5th wheel hitch or placing dirtbikes, atvs etc on that part of the bed.

A travel trailers tongue weight is a different part of the system. 810lbs on a 1000lb bumber rating is perfect especially when you'll have a weight distribution system installed. We've done 1000s of trailers and we know our stuff.
Also please talk with other dealerships service professionals to confirm what I'm sayin as they will also agree. Also please refer to your Trucks GCVWR. That's your trucks combined vehicle weight RATING Truck and Trailer.

Is he just trying to sell me on the rig?

He’s trying to sell you. Truck payload is anything you put in or attach to the truck.

You had a 1900 lb payload so subtract the weight of you and your family, any add-ons after you bought the truck (bed cover, Line-x, that useless LED light strip above the windshield) the WD hitch and of course the tongue weight of the trailer.

[slow]

The owner’s manual for your truck provides a good explanation of payload and you will find that is well aligned with the advice the forum members are providing. Ignore everything a salesperson tells you.

[JRTJH]

Hi All,

I'm working on some calculations and am starting to understand the lingo. :)

I received this email today and wanted to run it by you since were buying a TT and not a 5th wheel...just want to be sure. :)

Email from dealer:
Hi Nicole, a trucks payload is "only" considered if you plan on loading a 5th wheel hitch or placing dirtbikes, atvs etc on that part of the bed.

A travel trailers tongue weight is a different part of the system. 810lbs on a 1000lb bumber rating is perfect especially when you'll have a weight distribution system installed. We've done 1000s of trailers and we know our stuff.
Also please talk with other dealerships service professionals to confirm what I'm sayin as they will also agree. Also please refer to your Trucks GCVWR. That's your trucks combined vehicle weight RATING Truck and Trailer.

Is he just trying to sell me on the rig?

Go to your 2015 Ford F150 Owner's Manual, page 260 and you'll find the following:

Calculating the Maximum Loaded Trailer Weight for Your Vehicle
1. Start with the gross combined weight rating for your vehicle model and axle ratio. See the previous charts.
2. Subtract all of the following that apply to your vehicle:
• Vehicle curb weight.
• Hitch hardware weight, such as a draw bar, ball, locks or weight distributing hardware.
• Driver weight.
• Passenger(s) weight.
• Payload, cargo and luggage weight.
• Aftermarket equipment weight.
This equals the maximum loaded trailer weight for this combination.
Note: The trailer tongue load is considered part of the payload for
your vehicle. Reduce the total payload by the final trailer tongue
weight.

I took the liberty of bolding and changing to red the critical part that your salesman is "MISREPRESENTING" to you. I hate to use the term, "LYING" but in this case, I'd suggest that he's LYING, not simply misrepresenting.... His interest is in getting your money, to hell with whether you and your family are safe while towing the trailer he's pushing.....

I'd find a new salesman that knows what he's talking about, that doesn't lie and that wants you to get the "right fit" for your tow vehicle AND your family..... This jerk doesn't fit that criteria !!!!!

[sourdough]

Hi All,

I'm working on some calculations and am starting to understand the lingo. :)

I received this email today and wanted to run it by you since were buying a TT and not a 5th wheel...just want to be sure. :)

Email from dealer:
Hi Nicole, a trucks payload is "only" considered if you plan on loading a 5th wheel hitch or placing dirtbikes, atvs etc on that part of the bed.

A travel trailers tongue weight is a different part of the system. 810lbs on a 1000lb bumber rating is perfect especially when you'll have a weight distribution system installed. We've done 1000s of trailers and we know our stuff.
Also please talk with other dealerships service professionals to confirm what I'm sayin as they will also agree. Also please refer to your Trucks GCVWR. That's your trucks combined vehicle weight RATING Truck and Trailer.

Is he just trying to sell me on the rig?


Nicole,

Been traveling and finally able to catch up for a bit. This guy doesn't know anything about what he is talking about. He should be embarrassed to even send an email stating what he did - but I'm sure he doesn't know enough to. Sorry for being so blunt but these types of guys get so many folks in trouble and walk away happy knowing they made a sale.

"Payload" refers to the sum of EVERYTHING you add to the trucks original weight; tongue weight on a bumper - ditto, pin weight on a 5th wheel - ditto; they both drop onto the truck and increase the weight that the truck frame/suspension etc. has to carry. They ALL count.

His statement about gcvwr as the number to refer to is also either sales misdirection or ignorance - it is one of several numbers that you can't exceed and they all carry the same importance. Generally gcvwr is one of the higher numbers to exceed, like max tow capacity, so it's easier to let you slip into that category while you exceed all the other numbers.

Here's the deal; the 26rks is an 8800lb. gvw trailer. Depending on how you load your tongue weight could be 1050 - 13xx lbs. That comes off your 1900 lb. payload. While on that point, you need to know what class the truck receiver (hitch) is and what the weight limits are for it. Some are limited to 1000 lbs. as the sales guy was mentioning. If so, the tongue weight of your selected trailer will exceed the hitch rating along with other items. It should be stamped on the receiver and is sometimes listed on Ford's website (the actual receiver stamping takes precedence).

Not knowing how many folks you will take or your camping habits it is always better to calculate using the higher numbers (a scale is better but impossible with yet to be purchased trailer/trucks). So 1300 for a tongue weight gives you about 600 lbs. left for everything else. Hitch will be approx. 125lbs; now you are at 475 lbs. Now, from the 475 you have to deduct the weights of all people, pets, gear, tools, bbq, firewood, hammocks, ground mats, wood blocks (for lifting in the event of a flat), jacks, etc. etc. etc. - AND that 10-15% safety cushion to keep you out of trouble.

As you can see it would be very difficult not to exceed the truck's capabilities using max numbers. We didn't talk about gvw (gross vehicle weight), gawr front/rear (gross axle weight) and the sales guy already mentioned gcvwr. You can find those on your sticker as well.

I know it's a lot to digest, and sort of complicated, but you are doing the right thing in trying to gather it all in and understand it. I too am one of those that had to take a couple of expensive "baths". None of us here want anything more than for you to be able to find a good, safe match for your needs; your salesman is feeding you a line...and a bad one at that.

[LHaven]

We do have an auto and RV service place here in town that works on RV's so I thought I would be safe where ever we bought it. It's a Mom and Pop shop as we're in a small mountain town but he's worked on them for years. Would that suffice?

Sure, if all you want is to get work done and pay for it. If you want work done under warranty and want Keystone to pay for it, that's probably never going to happen. And trust me, with Keystone's world-famous QC, you're going to be bringing your rig back for warranty work, typically several times. (Our rig had the known bad Dometic HVAC gateway, a fouled furnace sail switch, a spare tire that couldn't be dismounted, a bad range fan motor, and probably other stuff I forgot... and of course we didn't find these all at once either.)

Count me as one of those people who started out with an F-150 Ecoboost that would "tow 9,000 lbs." and bought a 26' Cougar "half-ton towable" with max weight 8,800 (virtually the same model as yours, except a different floorplan). Sounds cut and dry, right?

But when I worked the actual payload numbers (I highly recommend this interactive worksheet (http://changingears.com/rv-sec-calc-trailer-weight-tt.shtml)) I discovered I was severely over tow capacity. We ended up having to upgrade to an F-250 three months ago, an unexpected major expense. Even now we are not 100% golden on our numbers as weighed (instead of the recommended 20% extra capacity margin we have 16%, which we're not going to stress over).

Believe me when I say that both the tow vehicle dealer and the trailer dealer tell big porky pies about what can haul what, in order to move their iron.

[flybouy]

Make sure that salesman doesn't look you in the eye, his nose may knock you out as fast as it's growing.

[dremcomtru]

Thank you all again for your support... I had a feeling he was trying to take me...shame on him! And what I didn't add to my post is this that he said:
"As that being said please be careful of what information you get out of RV forums... there's a lot of bad information out there."

I certainly have more trust and respect for all of you who have been there and done that. It angers me of dishonesty and down right lying.

I was up late last night learning the lingo and am getting a little better but it will take some time to get it down. I'm thankful for the new calculator sheet provided (thank you) as the other two I'd been trying to use were a bit tough.

I'm not finding all the numbers on the stickers and even pulled speck specific info to my VIN and it's not all there either. I'll hang out on the F-150 forum a little more as earlier recommended.

This will be a process and the good thing is thanks to all of you I'm learning as I go and I didn't make a 40K mistake.

I'm leaving the Cougar line for now. We'll get something smaller...I just want to get out there, it's always been my dream!

Thank you all again for your help and support!

[Brantlyj]

If you have not been pointed here yet, here is the link to the 2015 Ford towing guide. A lot of good info here.

https://www.fleet.ford.com/resources/ford/general/pdf/towingguides/Ford_Linc_15RVTTgde_May19.pdf

[travelin texans]

The best way to tell when a salesman is giving you false information.........their lips are moving!!!

[JRTJH]

... And what I didn't add to my post is this that he said:
"As that being said please be careful of what information you get out of RV forums... there's a lot of bad information out there." ...

He is correct, there is "a lot of bad information out there." Some of it is on this forum just as it is on any other forum... You can read through the "good advice in 100 posts" and then "destroy all the good with one bad post" that says, "Oh don't worry, you'll be OK, I've been doing it for the past 10 years and never had any problems"........ (this is BAD advice and you can find it on this forum if you look, so he's right in saying that, just not used to "make his point")

So, even with this forum, consider not only the good, but also the bad (and the source)....

[bobbecky]

There is also more guidance from the 2015 Goodsam TrailerLife Guide to Towing. This is still not the definitive authority, but just more information to help with this process. https://webcontent.goodsam.com/trailerlife.com/digital_editions/TrailerLifeTowGuide2015.pdf

[tanglemoose]

The dealers in Portland and Tacoma are cheaper than our Montana ones ...

On solar, the new ones have it all wired in, including 3 outlets if you buy an inverter... just have panel put on roof, inverter and your ready to go... it is a nice add on.

[LewisB]

Add me to the too much trailer/not enough truck feedback. I don't think you will like this rig in the end result. If you are absolutely set on using your existing truck, then follow the advice given previously and RENT a hitch and trailer to pull with your truck. Don't rent a 20' trailer then buy a 30' trailer - apples/oranges. You may save yourself thousands of dollars by going to this extra step.

> Additionally, one 15K BTU A/C unit will NOT keep this trailer comfortable if you plan to use it in hot/humid weather. At best, you can expect maybe 20 degree temperature differential (outside/inside) with this one unit. The 30A electrical service is not adequate if you want to run more than one AC unit.

> The "Half Ton" as part of the Keystone name is marketing BS and they should be ashamed of this.

> And I would walk - no - I would RUN from the dealer who hired the sales guy that said "a trucks payload is "only" considered if you plan on loading a 5th wheel hitch or placing dirtbikes, atvs etc on that part of the bed." The salesman and the hiring dealer either have an integrity or a knowledge issue - I wouldn't want to do business with them under any circumstances.

Lastly - THANK YOU for being smart enough to research and ask questions BEFORE you make a purchase. You are a rare commodity in today's RV world and we celebrate your just asking first! I'm sure you will choose wisely.

[TJH]

As another reference point, I have a 2013 F150 extended cab 4x4 with 3.5 Ecoboost with 3.55 rear axle. Ford says it can pull (w/distribution hitch) a max of 9,700 lbs.
I pull a 2013 Cougar 24RKSWE, actual weight is 7,370 lbs. (Dry weight listed at 5,592.). I get 9 to 10 mpg when towing. I’m pretty happy with the combination. It tows really well and there are no struggles going over mountains. I will second comments about gripping the wheel a bit more firmly in high wind conditions.
I just used the worksheet provided above ( Thanks LHaven) and it said I should be pulling a maximum of an 8,200 lb trailer.
If the 26RKS runs 1000 lbs heavier than the 24RKS it would certainly put me into a more nervous category.

[TJH]

Oops. Let me update my last entry (above). I used the weight calculator sheet vary late last night on my phone. I thought by leaving the safety margin entry blank it would auto populate similar to the hitch weight ratio. It did not.
I ran it again this morning using a 20% safety factor and actual truck weight (with my wife, myself, 2 grandkids, camping gear in truck, and full 36 gallon fuel tank).
It came back saying my trailer max can be 7,650 with a 15% safety factor. My loaded trailer came to 7,370 lbs. So my combination works but there is no room to bump up to a larger trailer.

Edit: Adding important fact that my F150 includes the Max Tow Package. ( Factory hitch receiver, wiring harness, trailer brake controller, aux auto transmission oil cooler, and upgraded radiator and rear bumper).

[LHaven]

Truthfully, I was surprised when you first said your numbers came out well. I did my numbers on a 2012 F-150 that was NOT a 4x4 (which reduces payload) that pulled 9,800 (but of course that number is rarely the limiting one), on a 26' trailer using an actual weight of 6144 (which, as it turns out was optimistic) and failed miserably, at any safety factor.

Don't recall if we specifically ordered "Max" tow, just used the numbers from the labels and manual. If "Max Tow" alters only the components you mention, and not the rear suspension (payload), I don't think it would change the results any.

If you PM me an email address, I'll send you the worksheet I used, and you can see where the figures might diverge significantly from yours and where they came from.

[TJH]

LHaven and others, it took me a bit to get back to this. (Still doing some fall cleanup). I went out to get other weight rating numbers off the truck and more fully populated the worksheet. According to the result I need to reconsider my current combination. I should have a smaller trailer or should be towing with a 3/4 ton.
DO listen to the experienced group in these forums. And as mentioned earlier, Keystone is doing a dis-service by labeling these as 1/2 ton series trailers. All for sales. :-(

[LHaven]

And as mentioned earlier, Keystone is doing a dis-service by labeling these as 1/2 ton series trailers. All for sales. :-(


I never did the numbers, but maybe if the DW and I were twigs instead of chunks, we didn't have the two big retrievers, and we only took the rig on weekend joints to the lakeside resort instead of cross-continent long hauls, maybe, just maybe, it would be a half ton towable. But I don't think there is any way I was ever going to get there.

[TJH]

I’m having mixed feelings. The majority of our trailering is 3 to 5 night trips within a 75 mile radius. Occasionally from central Oregon to the coast, just under 200 miles away. We bought both used and have been towing/camping with these for 3 years and the combination has been performing well together. (I upgraded the tires to light truck tires vs the passenger tires the F150s come with.). I could reduce the tongue weight and hitch transfer amount by not putting anything in the bed, and placing more in the rear of the trailer, including start using the slide out rack on the back of the trailer.
Does anyone have guesses as to what the “weakest link” in the GVWR may be? Any other relatively simple things that can be done to improve the situation? Or are there other threads where this is discussed?

I didn’t mean to overtake this string direction. Thanks for the help.

[LHaven]

Whenever I've done the numbers, the weakest link has been in raw payload, or in a few cases, physical hitch weight. The tongue weight of the unit overloads the TV payload figure or hitch rating (the stock hitch limit on an F150 is only 1,050 pounds) and you're out of bounds.

Now, you can try moving weight to the rear to unload the tongue, but if you don't keep the tongue around 11% or better of the total TT weight, you're going to experience sway problems on the road.

[flybouy]

I’m having mixed feelings. The majority of our trailering is 3 to 5 night trips within a 75 mile radius. Occasionally from central Oregon to the coast, just under 200 miles away. We bought both used and have been towing/camping with these for 3 years and the combination has been performing well together. (I upgraded the tires to light truck tires vs the passenger tires the F150s come with.). I could reduce the tongue weight and hitch transfer amount by not putting anything in the bed, and placing more in the rear of the trailer, including start using the slide out rack on the back of the trailer.
Does anyone have guesses as to what the “weakest link” in the GVWR may be? Any other relatively simple things that can be done to improve the situation? Or are there other threads where this is discussed?

I didn’t mean to overtake this string direction. Thanks for the help.

Your not going to like this as it's my opinion so don't be offended.

The first sentence I highlighted is you rationalizing why towing overloaded is ok. I think most folks on here have BTDTGTS. I,m included in that crowd. I was doing the same thing. Came to this forum and several people pointed it out. It's only natural that someone becomes defensive about their decisions and think that the folks telling you differently are just a bunch of "knuckle draggers" that think they are more "manly" for driving larger trucks.

Nothing could be further from the truth. I had my epiphany about 200 miles from home crossing the top of a mountain while passing an 18 wheeler. Thankfully I had cleared the truck (which started the sway) when the wind passing thru the cut in the mountain took over. I consider myself an excellent driver but that experience was unlike ANY other. Thankfully it was a multilane lane highway with shoulders as I used every inch of space between the guide rails. I was ignorant to the potential of the rig in a bad situation and never wanted to repeat that exercise again.


In all honesty the 'weakest link" is you. This isn't a personal attack, just an observation. It's humane nature that we don't want to face reality that we think we can correct the condition by applying "add ons". After all, many stores/websites sell all kinds of "fixes" right? I also realize the delima many face in the situation when you may not financially be able to replace your TV.

So I'm sure some folks will chime in with "I put these on my 1/2 ton truck and now I tow a 15K fiver no problem". Just be cognizant that they are relating their experience/opinions as well. Just know that sooner or later, given enough time and exposure to mother nature and fate, your day to prove you're rig is safe will come.

JMHO

[LewisB]

I’m having mixed feelings. The majority of our trailering is 3 to 5 night trips within a 75 mile radius. Occasionally from central Oregon to the coast, just under 200 miles away. We bought both used and have been towing/camping with these for 3 years and the combination has been performing well together. (I upgraded the tires to light truck tires vs the passenger tires the F150s come with.). I could reduce the tongue weight and hitch transfer amount by not putting anything in the bed, and placing more in the rear of the trailer, including start using the slide out rack on the back of the trailer.
Does anyone have guesses as to what the “weakest link” in the GVWR may be? Any other relatively simple things that can be done to improve the situation? Or are there other threads where this is discussed?

I didn’t mean to overtake this string direction. Thanks for the help.

I'm with flybouy Marshall - According to Progressive Insurance, 77% of most vehicle accidents occur within 15 miles of the driver's home. While the numbers might be different and likely lower for RV's, the point is that your distance from home is meaningless when you get passed by that 18 wheeler travelling 20 mph faster than you.

Taking weight out of the bed of your truck (removing cargo) might help meet your tow vehicle gross weight limitations but does NOT change your hitch weight (which is also part of the cargo weight) unless you move that weight to aft of the trailer axles.

Keep in mind that "Reducing the tongue weight" is a two-edged sword. Yes, you can change this dynamic with loading. Manufacturers attempt to do this by moving the axles forward; ever see a 30' trailer with the axles centered on the trailer?. This is an attempt to reduce the tongue weight, making the trailer more "towable" by lighter duty vehicles with limited hitch capabilities. However, reducing the tongue weight also leads to a higher level of instability from wind, wheel alignment issues, road ruts, etc. Carry this thought out to the extreme - load your trailer so that it has "zero" tongue weight - how well is is going to tow in a wind storm. Remember, if you drive on a freeway or road with 18 wheelers, you are ALWAYS in a wind storm - worse yet, think unsuspected and "gusty" wind storm.

So in answer to your search for "simple" solutions, there aren't many. Maybe reduce your expectations for what you can tow and what you need when you do tow. Budget for future expansion of your hardware. Most importantly - keep an open mind. The fact that you are thinking this over, exploring for information, wanting to do right - all great signs that you are on the right track? Keep after it!

[travelin texans]

The weakest link is your present tow vehicle, too little truck with too much rv.!

[Northofu1]

Your not going to like this as it's my opinion so don't be offended.

The first sentence I highlighted is you rationalizing why towing overloaded is ok. I think most folks on here have BTDTGTS. I,m included in that crowd. I was doing the same thing. Came to this forum and several people pointed it out. It's only natural that someone becomes defensive about their decisions and think that the folks telling you differently are just a bunch of "knuckle draggers" that think they are more "manly" for driving larger trucks.

Nothing could be further from the truth. I had my epiphany about 200 miles from home crossing the top of a mountain while passing an 18 wheeler. Thankfully I had cleared the truck (which started the sway) when the wind passing thru the cut in the mountain took over. I consider myself an excellent driver but that experience was unlike ANY other. Thankfully it was a multilane lane highway with shoulders as I used every inch of space between the guide rails. I was ignorant to the potential of the rig in a bad situation and never wanted to repeat that exercise again.


In all honesty the 'weakest link" is you. This isn't a personal attack, just an observation. It's humane nature that we don't want to face reality that we think we can correct the condition by applying "add ons". After all, many stores/websites sell all kinds of "fixes" right? I also realize the delima many face in the situation when you may not financially be able to replace your TV.

So I'm sure some folks will chime in with "I put these on my 1/2 ton truck and now I tow a 15K fiver no problem". Just be cognizant that they are relating their experience/opinions as well. Just know that sooner or later, given enough time and exposure to mother nature and fate, your day to prove you're rig is safe will come.

JMHO

I agree totally.
It's a hard pill to swallow.
I had seen and heard enough in here to realize it works for now but what if.
I didn't want to see the what if. Stuck to trips closer to home on flat land and drove much slower. All the while seeking out a new vehicle.
I got lucky with much work in finding my new vehicle. I do believe if you look for it, you will find it. Stick to your budget, no matter what a couple of salesmen say. You'll find it.
Pore over weights for your current TT and the TV you will need, also think about the possibility of a TT / 5er upgrade in the future.

[TJH]

Flybouy, I’m not offended. Last night I was up researching and reading countless articles and forums. One article stated exactly that: The weakest link is the driver. And yes, it was a shock to find out this combo is a mismatch after using it “fine” for the last 3 years. What are the stages of shock? I don’t remember them all but believe it starts will denial and ends with acceptance.

[JRTJH]

Flybouy, I’m not offended. Last night I was up researching and reading countless articles and forums. One article stated exactly that: The weakest link is the driver. And yes, it was a shock to find out this combo is a mismatch after using it “fine” for the last 3 years. What are the stages of shock? I don’t remember them all but believe it starts will denial and ends with acceptance.

The 5 stages of grief that you reference are:
1. Denial and isolation;
2. Anger;
3. Bargaining;
4. Depression;
5. Acceptance

Not to "sermonize" that list, but if you look through any number of threads on this forum, you can see the 5 stages "in action" as posters go from being "pissed at the news" to "announcing their new tow vehicle in the longest running thread on the forum with almost 1700 posts" http://www.keystoneforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7169

The important "take away" is that you recognize how to keep yourself and your family as safe as possible while enjoying your RV.

[RET.LEO]

More truck is better (within reason) Dad had a livestock feed business. I would travel 40 miles twice a day with 80 bags of feed which equaled 4,000 lbs. Day in.....day out, never a glitch with a 3/4 ton pick-up.
We always considered 1/2 ton trucks to be "city trucks", "Gentleman Farmers" trucks, city trucks.
Farmers and construction guys always used 3/4 ton trucks for tow ability and most important of all: CARRY CAPACITY.
A Ford F-250 either gas or diesel depending if you run mountains or not would be a great choice.
A friend of mine who was a Ford Service Manager has always steered me towards the gas side. He is a firm believer in the ability of the F-250. He always says it is closer to a 1 ton truck in ability than being a 3/4 ton truck.

We're still in a holding pattern to drop the coin on a Cougar as my wife is about two years from retirement. When we finally do it........it will be towed with a F-250 Gasser. I like Gas as my buddy says: parts are available everywhere, just about any shop anywhere can work on it if needed, between higher maintenance and additional cost of diesel it offsets the increase in MPG that the diesel gives. With proper P.M. the gasser will last as long as the diesel
BUT:
If we decide to run primarily Colorado or to the East West Va then I would be tempted to go Diesel simply to get the exhaust brake.

[wiredgeorge]

More truck is better (within reason) Dad had a livestock feed business. I would travel 40 miles twice a day with 80 bags of feed which equaled 4,000 lbs. Day in.....day out, never a glitch with a 3/4 ton pick-up.
We always considered 1/2 ton trucks to be "city trucks", "Gentleman Farmers" trucks, city trucks.
Farmers and construction guys always used 3/4 ton trucks for tow ability and most important of all: CARRY CAPACITY.
A Ford F-250 either gas or diesel depending if you run mountains or not would be a great choice.
A friend of mine who was a Ford Service Manager has always steered me towards the gas side. He is a firm believer in the ability of the F-250. He always says it is closer to a 1 ton truck in ability than being a 3/4 ton truck.

We're still in a holding pattern to drop the coin on a Cougar as my wife is about two years from retirement. When we finally do it........it will be towed with a F-250 Gasser. I like Gas as my buddy says: parts are available everywhere, just about any shop anywhere can work on it if needed, between higher maintenance and additional cost of diesel it offsets the increase in MPG that the diesel gives. With proper P.M. the gasser will last as long as the diesel
BUT:
If we decide to run primarily Colorado or to the East West Va then I would be tempted to go Diesel simply to get the exhaust brake.

The diesel torque is kinda nice in steep hills... I will say I would have liked to buy a gas truck but couldn't find a one ton gas truck in my price range (CHEAP). The 6.0 was in my price range as so many consider it a junk engine and they go cheaper than the 7.3 or 6.7. Nobody wants the 6.4. My truck has been fixed to where it is reliable. Cost me some but a lot less than buying a new truck. And please don't swallow the cool-aid on the diesel fuel mileage thing. 10 mpg towing and 14 not-towing. A one ton is too heavy to be a econo vehicle. Maintenance costs on a gas truck have to be less. My truck takes 287,000 quarts of oil at oil change time and filters all over the place add to this. I wanted a V10 but just couldn't find one. They are gas hogs too. Previously had a 7.5L super gas sucker and it was easy and cheap to maintain but was thirsty.

Last stupid comment... got a new battery for my camper. It weighs 47 lbs. Geesh those pounds can add up as far as eating load capacity of a truck. My load capacity is north of 4K lbs so don't have to quite eating pizza yet! :lol:

[LewisB]

We ran an F250 pulling a TT then a 5th wheel. It was a 460 ci. I installed 4.88 gears an a very expensive Gear Vendor OD. It would pull like a diesel - at about 5.5 MPG.
Yes, it worked. But I had to absolutely “thrash” that rig ALL THE TIME!

Then I bought my first diesel! Talk about a difference! My experience is that you can run all of the figures that you want on paper but at the end of the day, if you are doing serious towing, once you own a diesel you won’t go back to gas. Between Increased fuel mileage and resale value, my experience has been that the diesel is a smarter purchase If the primary purpose of the vehicle is towing. And when I tow now it’s a relaxing experience rather than a “thrashing”. JMHO

[Brantlyj]

More truck is better (within reason) Dad had a livestock feed business. I would travel 40 miles twice a day with 80 bags of feed which equaled 4,000 lbs. Day in.....day out, never a glitch with a 3/4 ton pick-up.
We always considered 1/2 ton trucks to be "city trucks", "Gentleman Farmers" trucks, city trucks.
Farmers and construction guys always used 3/4 ton trucks for tow ability and most important of all: CARRY CAPACITY.
A Ford F-250 either gas or diesel depending if you run mountains or not would be a great choice.
A friend of mine who was a Ford Service Manager has always steered me towards the gas side. He is a firm believer in the ability of the F-250. He always says it is closer to a 1 ton truck in ability than being a 3/4 ton truck.

We're still in a holding pattern to drop the coin on a Cougar as my wife is about two years from retirement. When we finally do it........it will be towed with a F-250 Gasser. I like Gas as my buddy says: parts are available everywhere, just about any shop anywhere can work on it if needed, between higher maintenance and additional cost of diesel it offsets the increase in MPG that the diesel gives. With proper P.M. the gasser will last as long as the diesel
BUT:
If we decide to run primarily Colorado or to the East West Va then I would be tempted to go Diesel simply to get the exhaust brake.

I have a 2016 F250 gas. Great truck. Love it. Rides just as nice as the F-150 I used to have. We own a grain business so I also have 1-2 tons in the bed on a regular basis.
First “long” trip with the trailer was 200 miles into a 20mph headwind the entire way. Truck pretty much camped out in third gear and 2500-3000 rpm’s the entire way. 5 mpg. Diesel would have been nice in that instance.

One piece of advise if going gas. Order the tallest gear ratio the factory offers. I think it’s either 4.10 or 4.33. Can’t remember. I have the 3.73 and while it’s fine it would have lowered the rpm or allowed the truck to get into 4th gear. Also it raises the max gcvw numbers (although you will probably max out somewhere else first.).

[travelin texans]

I've towed heavy, 16.5k, 5th wheels with both gas & diesel trucks & would not go back to a gasser. The power difference is amazing then throw in the exhaust brake & you're comparing apples to oranges. I agree the fuel mileage is not much different til you get into the mountains, the diesel mileage won't change nearly as much as a gasser not to mention you won't have to have your right foot shoved through the firewall to keep it climbing.
As to maintenance, I quite honestly didn't notice much difference between the two. The diesel oil changes were every 10-15k instead of 3-5k, the oil filters cost the same, the oil cost the same per quart just took more, fuel filters if done myself were about $40 every 50k miles, all other maintenance is the same for both & everyone brings up the DEF which in my case was about $10-12 for 2.5 gallons every 3000-3500 miles which is pretty cheap per mile. The other advantage if towing a large RV with a diesel is you can always fill up at a truck stop without having deal with the idiots at the gas pumps.
If you're planning on going full-time with a RV 12k pounds or more I'd recommend a 350-3500 diesel truck, depending on weight doesn't have to be a dually, over the 250-2500 gasser & hit the road.

[dremcomtru]

Hi All, I'm back!:wave:
Hope you had a Happy Thanksgiving!!

Despite how many dealers and service centers told us we could pull the Cougar, we took your advice and chose not to. Thank you for saving us and others from a possible accident.

Now we are looking at the Keystone Outback Ultra-Lite 221UMD. Either a 2019 or 2020...I don't see a difference other than the blind color.
https://www.keystonerv.com/travel-trailers/outback-ultra-lite/floorplans/221umd-travel-trailer/

It's just under 5000 lbs so hoping it will work. Can you provide me with your input for towing it?
Our tow vehicle is 2015 Ford F-150 3.5L eco boost, 3.31 axles, 4wheel drive, super crew cab, short bed

It will just be hubby, me, and our chihuahua all totaling a max of 300 lbs.

We're going to get a break controller installed next week.

I look forward to hearing from you...thank you for your help!
Nicole

[ctbruce]

Hi All, I'm back!:wave:
Hope you had a Happy Thanksgiving!!

Despite how many dealers and service centers told us we could pull the Cougar, we took your advice and chose not to. Thank you for saving us and others from a possible accident.

Now we are looking at the Keystone Outback Ultra-Lite 221UMD. Either a 2019 or 2020...I don't see a difference other than the blind color.
https://www.keystonerv.com/travel-trailers/outback-ultra-lite/floorplans/221umd-travel-trailer/

It's just under 5000 lbs so hoping it will work. Can you provide me with your input for towing it?
Our tow vehicle is 2015 Ford F-150 3.5L eco boost, 3.31 axles, 4wheel drive, super crew cab, short bed

It will just be hubby, me, and our chihuahua all totaling a max of 300 lbs.

We're going to get a break controller installed next week.

I look forward to hearing from you...thank you for your help!
NicoleIts said on here....a lot. Dry weight from the factory means nothing. It only exists when the trailer leaves the factory. Instead, when buying, use the GVW, which is the combination of the dry weight plus the carrying capacity. For this trailer that is approximately 7200 pounds with a tongue weight of approximately 1100 pounds. Starting at 1900 pounds of payload for your truck, minus 300 passengers, 60 battery, 60 propane, 100 hitch weight,1100 tongue weight is a margin of 280 pounds. You will be under your payload number. You'll need to check the other numbers. Are you under the combined gross weight value, under your rear axle carrying capacity? Can your receiver handle 1100 pounds?

[LHaven]

I may have made some major stupid math error (it happens), but this is what I see right now.

The Keystone webpage seems written to confuse. 4971 is the dry weight, a weight your rig will never weigh again once it leaves the factory. Dry weight doesn't include propane, battery, and hitch, to name just three heavy items your rig will sprout before you even see it.

Add the 2229 carrying capacity figure to arrive at the true maximum weight of 7200, which presumably is the figure that would show on the side label of the trailer. (Why Keystone doesn't straightforwardly publish that on their webpage is disturbing.) Assume 15% of this is tongue weight, which would be 1080.

Your TV max payload number is 1903. Minus the people and dog at 300 gives 1603 headroom, well within acceptable spec.

However, note that the max capacity of the physical hitch alone on an F150 is 1050. Mmmm.

Now, I believe exceeding the recommended 20% margin is probably reasonable for this single number. If you limited your tongue weight to, say, 950, which seems fair to me, you should be well within the working load of that hitch. If that's 15% of your gross trailer weight, that would limit you to a gross weight of about 6300, or a trailer payload of 1330. It's not 2229, but it's a payload you could make work, even after propane, battery, and hitch have come off the top. When you add up your food, water, clothes, cookware, tools, camp furniture, outdoor toys, and the like, you have to keep the total trailer weight under 6300, and balance it properly.

Note that you're leaving nearly 900 pounds of payload on the table due to limitations in your tow vehicle.

[wiredgeorge]

Hi All, I'm back!:wave:
Hope you had a Happy Thanksgiving!!

Despite how many dealers and service centers told us we could pull the Cougar, we took your advice and chose not to. Thank you for saving us and others from a possible accident.

Now we are looking at the Keystone Outback Ultra-Lite 221UMD. Either a 2019 or 2020...I don't see a difference other than the blind color.
https://www.keystonerv.com/travel-trailers/outback-ultra-lite/floorplans/221umd-travel-trailer/

It's just under 5000 lbs so hoping it will work. Can you provide me with your input for towing it?
Our tow vehicle is 2015 Ford F-150 3.5L eco boost, 3.31 axles, 4wheel drive, super crew cab, short bed

It will just be hubby, me, and our chihuahua all totaling a max of 300 lbs.

We're going to get a break controller installed next week.

I look forward to hearing from you...thank you for your help!
Nicole

OK... looked at the floor plan and saw it had a "pet kennel" under the bed. Ya'll planning on sticking your poor little chihuahua under the bed in that "pet kennel". Would LOVE to see how that arrangement works. Also, hope the TV pivots out quite a bit as I mostly sit in my LazyBoy reclining love seat when camping and watch satellite TV (just like at home).

One downside of the floorplan was the curtain rather than a door. I get up real early and like to watch TV and make coffee and the missus and our pups like to sleep. The door makes it possible as it keeps all the noise down

Looks to me like this trailer makes more sense and after camping a few times you will know better what you like and what you don't and what things are really necessary and what you can compromise on.

[Northofu1]

How anyone could pack a literal ton of baggage/ food/ clothing/ etc. in a trailer that size is beyond me.
Knowing what I know now (which isn't a lot, but enough) I would rent a trailer that size for a week / weekend and see how that works out.
I would weigh what I was bringing as I loaded the trailer. When camping I would take stock of what I brought, see what I was missing that I thought was necessary to put in my trailer and make a list. Including tools and leveling equipment hoses etc.
It would probably cost you $1500 to $2000 for a week inclusive. Over that week it would give you some real insight as to what you need or want.
In the long run, you will know the gas consumption, the feel of carrying that with your truck, as well as the real life weights and costs your dealing with.
Heck, if your close to a cat or other weigh scale that would be optimal as well.
Best of luck to you both :)

[LewisB]

...Knowing what I know now (which isn't a lot, but enough) I would rent a trailer that size for a week / weekend and see how that works out.
I would weigh what I was bringing as I loaded the trailer. When camping I would take stock of what I brought, see what I was missing that I thought was necessary to put in my trailer and make a list. Including tools and leveling equipment hoses etc.
It would probably cost you $1500 to $2000 for a week inclusive. Over that week it would give you some real insight as to what you need or want.
In the long run, you will know the gas consumption, the feel of carrying that with your truck, as well as the real life weights and costs your dealing with.
Heck, if your close to a cat or other weigh scale that would be optimal as well.
Best of luck to you both :)

This is GREAT advice! Maybe it is time for you take a very deep breath, step back, and take a 10K foot view of your "journey" so far. You have gone from a 26' trailer with a lot of nice features to a 22' trailer that is really going to feel "small" even for 2 people. [Think in terms of being limited to living in a hotel room for several months.] In your original post, you indicate you plan to live in this unit. Are you really going to be happy with this rig? If you think so, invest the time/funds to test that theory with a rental rig! So far, your decisions are being driven by your desire to keep your existing tow vehicle - but you are discovering that it really isn't designed to function as you intend to use it.

Please don't take this in a negative way - you are doing everything in a really SMART way! Asking questions, changing your expectations to match reality - all good stuff! Maybe it is time to rent & test your expectations against reality. Purchasing a trailer that you will ultimately not be happy with, being towed by a vehicle that really isn't all that capable, will only place you twice as deep in a hole that is even harder to exit in the future. It would be money well spent to test you final decision before making the financial plunge!

Just IMHO...

[dremcomtru]

Hi All,

Thank you for your honest feedback...it's what I want to hear and will have Hubby read and look at the technical parts.

I thought I would be hearing yes, yes, yes but I'm happy for your honesty.

I guess with this not so mighty tow vehicle, the best thing would be a tent trailer, or single axle TT....so sad you F150 Minnie Mouse.:banghead:

In the beginning we intended to live in the TT on property...Mother-in law and her small dog moved in a few months ago...we gave her our master bed/bath and wanted to have our own space but it seems we've adjusted and things are going much better than we thought. Now, there's no need to live in the trailer. I would still like to travel to other states at some point so a nicer trailer would have been great.

Yes, I'm clinging to this tow vehicle and just trying to make it work. We've never camped so hubby decided to buy something smaller and just get out there. If we like camping HOPEFULLY we can afford to make changes later as needed, and if we don't we didn't spend as much, can sell the trailer, and keep the truck that he likes. The alternative is traveling in our Subaru and staying in hotels or vacation rentals/airbnbs. It might even be less expensive in the long run wouldn't allow me to be out in nature the way I'd like.

I agree with renting a trailer to test but hubby, not so much so. Perhaps he'll agree after reading the posts.

This is the closest I could get the TV to the theater seating of all the other floor plans. I'm one eyed so I would prefer it right in front of me. I could see watching dvds while out camping if I can see it without straining my eyes. There were a few floorplans with the TV right in front but didn't have a dinette that hubby wants.

I also agree with the bedroom curtain rather than a wall/door. Hubby gets up earlier than I, and the noise reduction would have been great!

I'm not sure if we'll stick our little chi in the pet kennel, if so, I'll remove the door. About 7lbs, she only needs a tiny bed for sleeping. But it's a nice option just in case I need to crate her for any reason.


The 26RKS, ticked all the boxes and would have been my home away from home, I love that TT and wouldn't foresee a need to ever change...but camping doesn't have to luxurious right?
With something smaller and not as nice, I can still get out there and see the beauty, have a roof over my head, and camp simply and so much better than a tent. I must see my cup half full and not half empty.

I'm bound and determined to get out there to enjoy the beauty but want to tow safely and responsibly. I'll have hubby look at the technical questions asked.
Thank you for your help! I'll report back after we discuss this more.

[LewisB]

My personal compliments to you and your hubby on your comprehensive search and desire to “get it right“. It is very unusual on this forum and absolutely refreshing to see somebody new to RVing working this hard to find just the right rig. If you are not going to live in it full-time, the smaller rig may be absolutely perfect and you will love being able to travel, take it into the forest and enjoy the surroundings.

Keep up the good work: best of luck and we will see you down the road!

[LHaven]

How anyone could pack a literal ton of baggage/ food/ clothing/ etc. in a trailer that size is beyond me.


Weight adds up fast. If you are the type who likes to travel with his freshwater tank full, you've just eaten up a quarter ton right there.

When we bought our first rig 20 years ago, we took a one week shakedown cruise, then packed up for a year's excursion around the US with a 10-year-old. We had to homeschool him to our district's standards, which included a pretty stiff reading list. This was before the era of e-books, so we had two crates of physical hardcovers in the cargo hold. DW, a mistress of Tetris when it comes to packing things, was pleased as punch that our rig came in precisely at max weight at departure. Knowing what I know now, we were probably excessively overweight for the payload of our Suburban 2500, though it didn't seem to show in towing responsiveness or performance. The silver lining was that as he plowed through each book, we would just leave it in a campground swap-a-book library, so as we traveled we continually got lighter and lighter. :-)

[LHaven]

My personal compliments to you and your hubby on your comprehensive search and desire to “get it right“. It is very unusual on this forum and absolutely refreshing to see somebody new to RVing working this hard to find just the right rig.


Most probably because it's rare for someone to join a help forum before already being financially committed to a problem configuration.

[wiredgeorge]

Hi All,

Thank you for your honest feedback...it's what I want to hear and will have Hubby read and look at the technical parts.

I thought I would be hearing yes, yes, yes but I'm happy for your honesty.

I guess with this not so mighty tow vehicle, the best thing would be a tent trailer, or single axle TT....so sad you F150 Minnie Mouse.:banghead:

In the beginning we intended to live in the TT on property...Mother-in law and her small dog moved in a few months ago...we gave her our master bed/bath and wanted to have our own space but it seems we've adjusted and things are going much better than we thought. Now, there's no need to live in the trailer. I would still like to travel to other states at some point so a nicer trailer would have been great.

Yes, I'm clinging to this tow vehicle and just trying to make it work. We've never camped so hubby decided to buy something smaller and just get out there. If we like camping HOPEFULLY we can afford to make changes later as needed, and if we don't we didn't spend as much, can sell the trailer, and keep the truck that he likes. The alternative is traveling in our Subaru and staying in hotels or vacation rentals/airbnbs. It might even be less expensive in the long run wouldn't allow me to be out in nature the way I'd like.

I agree with renting a trailer to test but hubby, not so much so. Perhaps he'll agree after reading the posts.

This is the closest I could get the TV to the theater seating of all the other floor plans. I'm one eyed so I would prefer it right in front of me. I could see watching dvds while out camping if I can see it without straining my eyes. There were a few floorplans with the TV right in front but didn't have a dinette that hubby wants.

I also agree with the bedroom curtain rather than a wall/door. Hubby gets up earlier than I, and the noise reduction would have been great!

I'm not sure if we'll stick our little chi in the pet kennel, if so, I'll remove the door. About 7lbs, she only needs a tiny bed for sleeping. But it's a nice option just in case I need to crate her for any reason.


The 26RKS, ticked all the boxes and would have been my home away from home, I love that TT and wouldn't foresee a need to ever change...but camping doesn't have to luxurious right?
With something smaller and not as nice, I can still get out there and see the beauty, have a roof over my head, and camp simply and so much better than a tent. I must see my cup half full and not half empty.

I'm bound and determined to get out there to enjoy the beauty but want to tow safely and responsibly. I'll have hubby look at the technical questions asked.
Thank you for your help! I'll report back after we discuss this more.

Did you intend on taking the camper to a specific site and leaving it there or would you be interested in traveling to different sites? If one site, pay a trailer mover to set it up for you and keep your truck! In any case, I also suggest it isn't a bad idea to buy a used camper; you will learn your druthers only after staying in the camper through different seasons and can then judge what the ideal floorplan might look like as well as features.

[LHaven]

In your original post, you indicate you plan to live in this unit. Are you really going to be happy with this rig? If you think so, invest the time/funds to test that theory with a rental rig!

^ This.

I have a friend with wanderlust, no truck, and zero RV experience who recently sold his house in suburbia and jumped into fulltiming. He bought a used 25' TT, had me tow it into our small park, and moved into it with his DW, two medium dogs, and two cats. After spending time and money repairing everything that needed repairing (new converter, batteries, anode rod, pressure relief valve, door lock, door window, and more) he decided that the rig was too claustrophobic for them. It took him only three weeks to determine this.

He moved his rig to a storage location, went out and bought a used 36' 5er, moved it in, transferred all his stuff, and put the old rig on the market (in better shape than he bought it). Fortunately, I had bent his ear enough about weight problems prior to his buying his own TV, so he had picked up a used F-350, and had all the muscle he needed to haul the new rig.

Now he's on a brand new repair jag, but he's way happier with the space (though one cat, who hates change, has snapped and is now hiding under the hollow couch where no one can reach her.)

My point is, in only two to four weeks, you can pretty much determine by renting a rig whether or not you can put up with one like it.

[TTPRITCHARD]

Just sharing my thoughts on pulling our 2019 cougar 26RKS for 1 year. 1st of all, we tow it with a GMC sierra 2500 Duramax. Fully agree with all other comments that a 1/2 would be really challenging. Before owning the Cougar 26RKS we had a Premier 22RBS, which our tundra 1500 pulled just fine. Keystone Premiers are lighter and more aerodynamic which makes it much easier to tow. We decided to upgrade the floor plan and went for the lovely Cougar 26RKS, which is 4 ft longer. It pulls significantly heavier, it is lower to the ground and not as aerodynamic. Out of the dealer we felt the difference. It is still very towable but my husband was definitely happy that we were pulling with a 3/4 ton. We LOVE our camper and aside from a furnace issue that had to be serviced during warranty, we have not had any major issues in the year we have owned it. Highly recommend this trailer. As far as electric jacks, we really like it and have not had any issues. We did however add skid wheels to the back bumper to prevent hitting the jacks while pulling through ramps. Keep in mind that this trailer has 2 gray tanks and you will need to flush each tank separately. Not a deal breaker for us but for others it me be. Overall, very nice camper, but like other comments, you will likely have challenges pulling with a 1500 - dealers will tell you that this is a 1/2 ton Towable trailer, but it is not. For the size, this camper is significantly heavier than others in same size. Hope this helps!

[wiredgeorge]

Just sharing my thoughts on pulling our 2019 cougar 26RKS for 1 year. 1st of all, we tow it with a GMC sierra 2500 Duramax. Fully agree with all other comments that a 1/2 would be really challenging. Before owning the Cougar 26RKS we had a Premier 22RBS, which our tundra 1500 pulled just fine. Keystone Premiers are lighter and more aerodynamic which makes it much easier to tow. We decided to upgrade the floor plan and went for the lovely Cougar 26RKS, which is 4 ft longer. It pulls significantly heavier, it is lower to the ground and not as aerodynamic. Out of the dealer we felt the difference. It is still very towable but my husband was definitely happy that we were pulling with a 3/4 ton. We LOVE our camper and aside from a furnace issue that had to be serviced during warranty, we have not had any major issues in the year we have owned it. Highly recommend this trailer. As far as electric jacks, we really like it and have not had any issues. We did however add skid wheels to the back bumper to prevent hitting the jacks while pulling through ramps. Keep in mind that this trailer has 2 gray tanks and you will need to flush each tank separately. Not a deal breaker for us but for others it me be. Overall, very nice camper, but like other comments, you will likely have challenges pulling with a 1500 - dealers will tell you that this is a 1/2 ton Towable trailer, but it is not. For the size, this camper is significantly heavier than others in same size. Hope this helps!

One thing you mentioned kind of made me take note. You said you had two gray tanks that have to be flushed separately. Why would you flush a tank with gray water? No solids in these tanks. If you are talking about emptying these tanks and one has a handle that is in a most awkward position, put a Valterra valve on the outlet dump valve (if your trailer has only one dump valve) and you can pretty much leave the handle on the hard to read tank open. Keep in mind when you pull the handle on the Valterra outer dump valve the gray tank will dump.

[TTPRITCHARD]

Yeah, we have considered different solutions to consolidate dumping into one lever... this trailer has 2 gray tanks, each 30 gallons, and 1 black tank 30gallon. The valves are separate with two pulls, bathroom black + gray and kitchen gray. Unfortunately for us they are also very apart to easily consolidate. Bummer.

[flybouy]

As to "dumping into one lever" I think you'll find the challenge of the the two gray tanks being too far apart to get the proper fall. Most folks connect two hoses with a "Y" connection.

[JRTJH]

Yeah, we have considered different solutions to consolidate dumping into one lever... this trailer has 2 gray tanks, each 30 gallons, and 1 black tank 30gallon. The valves are separate with two pulls, bathroom black + gray and kitchen gray. Unfortunately for us they are also very apart to easily consolidate. Bummer.

I also have a Cougar XLite with two gray tanks. One is "up front with the black tank valve, the galley gray tank valve is "buried mid point under the slide and "impossible to reach without crawling under the trailer.

I "solved the problem" by purchasing a terminal valve to install on the sewer exit. Now, I leave the galley gray valve open (all the time) and use that terminal exit valve as the "galley gray valve".

When dumping tanks, I pull the terminal valve. That empties the galley tank. I then pull the black tank valve and empty the black tank. Then I close the black tank valve and pull the bath gray valve to empty that tank and flush the sewer lines/hoses with the "cleanest dirty water".

Except for some "special purpose use" (like equalizing tanks during dry camping) I haven't touched the "hard to reach valve" in the past 4 or 5 years.