Brand new RV issues

[RVbuying]

Bought a 2019 heartland toy hauler in march 2019. So many issues, shower leaks, detectors going off at night, fresh tank overflows, thermostats replaced first week of ownership and more. So, Oct 15th we turned it in for a 2020 keystone montana. All the same parts i realize but picked it for the floorplan and not too lose but a certain amount of money. Anyway, during the first shower water is leaking from under stall, and the new front window of this model is leaking. And the ceiling fan is about to fall in the floor. Called keystone really just to ask questions. It was shipp sept 19th to virginia arriving sept23rd. So they sell in a few weeks. Is their anywhere consumers are coming together to get regulations set forth by this industry? I was told they arent regulated in mfg. I was told to be a handy man and they will send me pumps parts etc. I dont want to work on RVs and make payments also. I want things to work. This industry is making so much money its ridiculous, we need to get some quality by hitting their pocketbooks for 300 million or more. I cant believe how much money they gotta be raking in. Where does this topic need to be directed. Or ill help an attorney make the case😁

[travelin texans]

First thing that comes to mind is I'd bet your attorney would love to take on a huge company like Thor, parent of both Keystone & Heartland, with their room full of lawyers for 2-3 years or more while you're footing the bill. If you're lucky you could get a new RV in a few years along with several hundred thousand dollar bill from your lawyer.
Next there's not one single individual working for Keystone reading this forum so not likely to get much help from them here. There are however a bunch of great folks with lots of know how that are willing to help you out that can/do work on & pay for theirs at the same time.
The RV industry is what it is & not likely to change any time in the near future.
If you're not willing to work on your RV, and pay for it too, then your best bet is get a good economical vehicle, a high limit credit card, a list of quality hotels, hit the road & enjoy!

[bobbecky]

By doing your own repairs, you will know the work is done right, and you will not have the rig parked at some dealer for months on end, subject to possible damage or even vandalism, while not being worked on. They ought to provide a repair manual with these rigs instead of the junk owners manual.

[sourdough]

I think Danny pretty much hit it on the head. As you seem to have experienced, RV ownership isn't really all peaches and roses. For those that want to be happy it actually requires the owner to accept the shortcomings of what they are going to get (all forums, all brands, everything) and make the best of it. Do you want the dealership to do all of it? Depending on the issues get ready to see your RV 6 months a year so they can fix something you could do in 15 minutes.

Owning an RV is what it is. If you don't want to spend your time to "work on an RV and make payments also" I would suggest you need to do one of 2 things; sell the RV or pay it off; there is no equation that says you don't have to work on an RV....period.

If you are not capable, or don't want, to do simple repairs (leak under the shower) and want your RV to be "perfect" with no issues.....you are going to be miserable.

[Ken / Claudia]

What's the dealer doing to help, that's who does warranty repairs.
Any RV should be free of defects but there not. And ones that are develop issues sooner or later. I have owned 9 rvs and worked on everyone at some point. Warranty work was done by the dealers.

[flybouy]

I think there are basically 2 types of people when it comes to home and RV ownership. Those that are handy, have tools, and are able to logically figure out and effect repairs.
. Those that don't have the tools, skills and desire to do their own repairs should rent their residence and rent a cabin if they want to commiserate with nature.
JMHO

[Ken / Claudia]

I agree with the last post and even told my sister in law the same thing several years ago. She purchased a home 15 years ago, but would not learn to to fix anything. We visit 2-3 times a year. I take lots of tools and spend hours fixing stuff she will not learn nor take time to fix. I did not mind except some of the safety things that she would let go. She phoned once her HW tank was leaking, I am 3 hours away. I had to talk her through turning the water intake valve off. She sold the house last summer and lives in an apartment and is happier. She even admitted that to us at the last visit. Having the landlord fix stuff is her way to go.

[Brantlyj]

You would think that the manufacturers would want to have a little better quality. Considering every single unit will need to have something done warranty wise wouldn’t it be cheaper in the long run to have it done right the first time instead of paying dealers?

[sourdough]

You would think that the manufacturers would want to have a little better quality. Considering every single unit will need to have something done warranty wise wouldn’t it be cheaper in the long run to have it done right the first time instead of paying dealers?


I personally don't think the manufacturers (or customers) are wanting better quality. Here's why;

I think at one point they may have had a QC dept. or person but as time went on, the push for more units daily kept growing and the clamoring customer base kept growing, they put less and less emphasis on QC. As time progressed they kept pushing quantity as quality kept falling further into the rear view mirror. The more they made, the less quality they provided, the more units the customers bought. I do think they monitored for any drop in sales due to less and less quality but it didn't happen. Customers anymore want something that can be pulled by a Prius, as large as an apt. and costs no more than a can of beans (metaphorically).

With all that going on the dealer IS the QC for the manufacturer. Do they want to do it? Who knows and it varies. If they don't do a PDI then the customers just get what came out; good or bad. If they are a quality dealer they may find tons or nothing. The problem for them is that the manufacturer zipped the RV through the assembly line not caring what went on and expecting the dealer to "fix" it, but, NOW the manufacturer wants to pay reduced rates for repairing a "new" trailer. In their minds they think they just shipped out a perfect product and now "someone" is questioning it (that could be you) and you need to provide a book to prove that the unit they shoved out the door, with zero oversight, no QC....nothing, wasn't perfect; when most are far from it. And here we are. But, outside, in the parking lot, the crowds get ever larger, the clamoring gets ever louder and the units roll out of the dealership faster and faster. Do we think that scenario is going to make them want to change their business model? Nah.

[wiredgeorge]

I am throwing the yellow flag! 15 yards for piling on. Bet the OP doesn't feel the love as the sympathy was kind of thin bwhahaha AND he hasn't returned for four days. All hail Thor, the Norse god of blunder!

[notanlines]

Y’all should be ashamed for treating a newby this way. Imagine, telling the truth to someone wanting sympathy.

[JRTJH]

Tough Love ???? Maybe a "Warm Welcome to the REAL WORLD" ??? How about the possibility of, "A couple of minutes on this or any other forum would have shown you what you're getting into with ANY RV.... BEFORE you bought."

Co-incidentally, the OP joined the forum, made the initial post (his only one) at 3:27 on 10/25/19. He then immediately signed off and has not returned.

Would the OP be a concerned RV'er looking for answers and/or assistance?? or possibly a SNIPER looking to "take a cheap, easy shot then "RUN for the hills" ????

I'd suppose the conclusion is up to each person who spends any time on this thread.....

[ChuckS]

Well... the RVing world is an adventure... lawyers and such aren’t going to help much but they will take your money

I’ve been RVing over 40 plus years with several different makes of rigs..They all had their issues...the new ones have more I think because they are cramming more features in them, more high tech stuff, and the construction techniques are “build em quick and get em out the door” for the most part..

OP should have gone directly to dealership and parked it there and showed them the issues, asked for resolutions, and maybe things would be better in the long run

Posting on social media isn’t going to fix anything in his case.. might make him feel better but solves nada.

That said ... groups like this one and many others I belong to can offer good repair tips, potential resolutions to working with dealership and Keystone customer satisfaction division to resolve the issues on new rigs

If your buying any RV, new or used expecting it to be a “plug and play” experience then I wish you well

[flybouy]

Some people just need to "vent". Scream and run.

[pdaniel]

I personally don't think the manufacturers (or customers) are wanting better quality. Here's why;

I think at one point they may have had a QC dept. or person but as time went on, the push for more units daily kept growing and the clamoring customer base kept growing, they put less and less emphasis on QC. As time progressed they kept pushing quantity as quality kept falling further into the rear view mirror. The more they made, the less quality they provided, the more units the customers bought. I do think they monitored for any drop in sales due to less and less quality but it didn't happen. Customers anymore want something that can be pulled by a Prius, as large as an apt. and costs no more than a can of beans (metaphorically).

With all that going on the dealer IS the QC for the manufacturer. Do they want to do it? Who knows and it varies. If they don't do a PDI then the customers just get what came out; good or bad. If they are a quality dealer they may find tons or nothing. The problem for them is that the manufacturer zipped the RV through the assembly line not caring what went on and expecting the dealer to "fix" it, but, NOW the manufacturer wants to pay reduced rates for repairing a "new" trailer. In their minds they think they just shipped out a perfect product and now "someone" is questioning it (that could be you) and you need to provide a book to prove that the unit they shoved out the door, with zero oversight, no QC....nothing, wasn't perfect; when most are far from it. And here we are. But, outside, in the parking lot, the crowds get ever larger, the clamoring gets ever louder and the units roll out of the dealership faster and faster. Do we think that scenario is going to make them want to change their business model? Nah.
I have owned a Keystone product until March of this year and jumped ship for another manufacturer. And I can relate to the problems the initiator of the posting is experiencing.
And yes, good quality control would be a start-a good process oriented manufacturing program, a good quality program, if you have been in manufacturing I would suggest an ISO9000 system. However, we would not be able to afford the RVs as those costs would be high for a product that is cobbled together with, in my humble opinion, insufficient drawings and instructions, pump them out the door as quickly as possible and let the dealer, and us, deal with the aftermath.
Virtually every towable manufacturer relies on the RVIA as their guide (whatever that is worth) and all assemble their RVs using the same vendor-supplied items and techniques.

However, I have found one towable manufacturer based out of Kansas who builds to order, one at a time. And the price reflects that attention. And it is a price I cannot afford, thus, my Grand Design fifth wheel.

We shopped around and gave Keystone the benefit of the doubt in hoping there was improvement in quality from 2017 models to 2019. Nope. We looked at both the Cougar and Montana line. In looking the Montana appeared to be a rebadged Cougar with a few more shiny baubles.

Is my Solitude much better? Maybe, maybe not. But, I haven't needed warranty work in the 8 months of ownership as I did with my 2017 Cougar.

So, they all have their workmanship and quality issues.

[StevyG]

I think there are basically 2 types of people when it comes to home and RV ownership. Those that are handy, have tools, and are able to logically figure out and effect repairs.
. Those that don't have the tools, skills and desire to do their own repairs should rent their residence and rent a cabin if they want to commiserate with nature.
JMHO

I certainly agree with your post..I am Handy but you buy something brand new.
Is there not a reasonable expectation that things should not be falling apart or defective parts? I call a dealership you have to wait 2 or 3 months!
All i can say is Whiskey Tango Foxtrot

[pdaniel]

I certainly agree with your post..I am Handy but you buy something brand new.
Is there not a reasonable expectation that things should not be falling apart or defective parts? I call a dealership you have to wait 2 or 3 months!
All i can say is Whiskey Tango Foxtrot
I agree, there should be a reasonable expectation of things not falling apart. But, in the absence of we the consumer, demanding a higher level of workmanship, the industry will never change for the better.
As a friend of mine, a proud owner of a brand new Allegro, told me, we, the buyers, are the quality control department.
And lastly, we should not expect to wait for an appointment for warranty work for 2-3 months then have the RV in the shop for another 2-3 months.
But, when the dealers are overwhelmed with warranty repairs due to substandard workmanship, we all pay the price.

[Mythplaced]

Well, This is all going to change. Product Quality is going to have to improve or manufacturers will be out of business.

Recent court cases have fallen on the side of the consumer.
IL Supreme Court: Buyers of defective RV not required to allow dealer to fix it before demanding refund

https://cookcountyrecord.com/stories/514144420-il-supreme-court-buyers-of-defective-rv-not-required-to-allow-dealer-to-fix-it-before-demanding-refund

Accettura and Wozniak purchased the RV new from Vacationland in April 2014. That June, they noticed a window leaked, and Vacationland offered to repair the issue at no charge. A month later, leaking windows during a rainstorm caused extensive damage inside the RV, including electrical failure. Vacationland told the couple it could not repair the defect itself and would have to send the RV back to the manufacturer.

Neither Vacationland nor the manufacturer would give the couple an estimate of how long the repairs would take, and the RV sat at the dealership for more than two weeks without being picked up by the manufacturer. Nearly three weeks after returning the vehicle for repairs, Accettura and Wozniak called Vacationland and “verbally revoked acceptance of the RV.”

About six weeks later, Vacationland called the couple and told them the repairs were complete and they could pick up the vehicle. The pair responded with a letter from their attorney confirming they had revoked their acceptance of the RV.

[DAMILLER_SR]

[QUOTE=RVbuying;364330]Bought a 2019 heartland toy hauler in march 2019. So many issues, shower leaks, detectors going off at night, fresh tank overflows, thermostats .../QUOTE]

I hate to beat a dead horse. However the original poster is 51% of the problem because he knew after his first purchase that they do not come perfect. His failure to do a complete inspection prior to taking delivery of the second RV is just neglect on his part.
Come prepared to test every aspect of the new RV including Gas Appliances, a water hose to check for leaks at all the windows and openings, a ladder to look in and around everything. Know that spending three or more hours at the dealership is much better than having to make either a return trip, or leaving your rig at the dealer for 6 months at some future dates. There are plenty of list and how to checks online on exactly what to do when taking delivery of a new RV, and failure to do this research after his first experience is just not acceptable as a beginning of complaints.
JM2C

[JRTJH]

Well, This is all going to change. Product Quality is going to have to improve or manufacturers will be out of business.

Recent court cases have fallen on the side of the consumer.
IL Supreme Court: Buyers of defective RV not required to allow dealer to fix it before demanding refund

https://cookcountyrecord.com/stories/514144420-il-supreme-court-buyers-of-defective-rv-not-required-to-allow-dealer-to-fix-it-before-demanding-refund

...

The last line of the newspaper article (the link) states: "The case was remanded for further proceedings" That means "appeal"... My guess is that all of the THOR legal team will be assigned to make sure this interpretation of the state statute doesn't go unchanged.....

Essentially, if enacted "as it's written" then if the windshield wipers on my new Edge failed to work I wouldn't need to let Ford replace the fuse, I could demand a refund and go buy another one ???? There's a lot more to this kind of situation than buying an RV, having a leaking window and getting a replacement or refund.... Stay tuned for, as Paul Harvey used to say, "The rest of the story".....

[Pull Toy]

Maybe before we "go to the mattresses" over this...

IMHO the OP is being piled on for making the same mistake that a lot of us have made at some point in our purchasing experiences, be it a camper, car, truck, boat, used gym set, etc! Come on now.... it's 6 months old! He probably can fix it himself, but why should the selling dealer not be held to account. Even if the PDI was not done well, the pre-delivery setup and servicing by the dealer should have caught most of these problems

The dealer ultimately put a defective product in the hands of the consumer. As already mentioned, a lawyer would love to add "billable hours" KA-CHING! Maybe rather than going after corporate, a much less expensive, maybe free, alternative is your local BBB or "Channel (fill in the blank) is on your side Consumer segment". Good Sam has also been quite effective in litigating issues. Why? Maybe because Courtrooms don't generate publicity, A PUBLIC EXPOSURE does. Raise H*ll at the local level, the dealer will probably cave under the negative PR!

Good Luck,

[JRTJH]

The OP started the thread on 10/25/19 at 3:27PM, signed off immediately after posting (3:27PM) and has not returned to the forum. So...... Apparently either he's unable to log back onto the forum, isn't interested in what anyone has to say, was just "venting in public".... Or _____ (fill in the blank)...

Any way you look at it, he's not getting any information from us, good, bad, indifferent or ??????

[RWRiley]

I personally don't think the manufacturers (or customers) are wanting better quality.

I agree Manufactures don't want better quality, and They will not improve until people quit buying their stuff or somebody starts holding their feet to the fire.

Customers DO want better quality. They want good quality at a reasonable price. As much as we pay for these things they could be much better.

I'm on camper #6, and the only reason I put with the horrible product they turn out is because I like camping so much.

To the OP - I wish there were lemon laws on RVs, just like Autos. Your surprise at poor quality is shared by a lot of 1st time RV owners. I have seen it on this forum and others from when I owned different brands. Your thoughts are very much justified.

[RWRiley]

Raise H*ll at the local level, the dealer will probably cave under the negative PR!

Good Luck,

I recently had some luck by contacting Keystone and complaining that the dealer blew me off on a KeyTV issue. They called the dealer, and so far the dealer seems to have a different attitude. Hopefully they will follow thru.

[Northofu1]

Don't most companies start and operate on the "There's a sucker born every minute" rule?
I have no qualms tormenting sales people. :lol:

[CaptnJohn]

HHMMmm~~ of my last 3 Keystone products;

New 2015 Cougar~ furnace did not work 400 miles from home. Called Atwood and they provided a list of mobile techs they work with.

New 2017 Montana HC ~ 2 pieces of crown came loose and 1 piece of trim was cut short and had to be replaced.

New 2019 Montana zero so far but only used 60++ days over 3500 miles.

I'd say that is pretty good so far.

If the builders had decent help things would be better. The Amish are in a hurry to get the farm work done. Anyone breathing gets a job with no background check or drug test. I doubt more than 50% of the workforce give a damn about the product.

[judia]

Geez, folks are bashing anyone who doesn't work on their RV. Am a 73 year old woman and not gonna do it! Can't do it! And bought an RV so I didn't have to stay in hotels. Any new RV is going to have issues. I have a 2019 Bullet 243BHS, came with a few issues which my dealer fixed under warranty. No problems since. Think the key is to find a dealer with a good reputation and a great service department. And make nice, LOL.

[wiredgeorge]

Geez, folks are bashing anyone who doesn't work on their RV. Am a 73 year old woman and not gonna do it! Can't do it! And bought an RV so I didn't have to stay in hotels. Any new RV is going to have issues. I have a 2019 Bullet 243BHS, came with a few issues which my dealer fixed under warranty. No problems since. Think the key is to find a dealer with a good reputation and a great service department. And make nice, LOL.

Maam, Most of our diplomatic commentators jump into every thread with zeal and are not shy about giving their opinion. Most of these threads deteriorate into "when I was a lad story" and if someone does have a problem, the normal answer is "I don't have that problem on my trailer"! Helpful? Keep in mind the curmudgeon cabal on this and any forum is generally made up of the most knowledgeable hiding among folks who just like to hear themselves talk so don't be offended when the old boys start puffing and smoking! There is an occasional bit of worthwhile coming from this babbling which is generally induced by poor weather or the boredom of a retiree. :hide:

[RWRiley]

Keep in mind the curmudgeon cabal on this and any forum is generally made up of the most knowledgeable hiding among folks who just like to hear themselves talk so don't be offended when the old boys start puffing and smoking!

^^^^^^ Yep !

[notanlines]

George, I'll have you know I resemble that comment. And Judia, I only do the bare necessities at 71. I spent 50 years of my life doing maintenance on my company equipment, fixing God only knows what. If the RV or truck needs brakes then I'll pay someone to put them on. My job is to drink beer, locate new trout and bluegill hot spots and bitch about cold weather (until November 18th).

[sourdough]

Maam, Most of our diplomatic commentators jump into every thread with zeal and are not shy about giving their opinion. Most of these threads deteriorate into "when I was a lad story" and if someone does have a problem, the normal answer is "I don't have that problem on my trailer"! Helpful? Keep in mind the curmudgeon cabal on this and any forum is generally made up of the most knowledgeable hiding among folks who just like to hear themselves talk so don't be offended when the old boys start puffing and smoking! There is an occasional bit of worthwhile coming from this babbling which is generally induced by poor weather or the boredom of a retiree. :hide:

I'm assuming you consider yourself one of those curmudgeon "commentators" that jump into every thread with zeal, not shy about giving your opinion, one of those that just "like to hear themselves talk" etc.??:)

[LewisB]

We have a 2018 Raptor 353TS that we purchased in May of 2019 - couldn't walk away from a rig we loved at a dealer we also loved. That said, there were some issues to deal with - but we expected that to be the case. I may be odd, but I actually enjoy testing everything, finding things I want to change/improve, making small repairs, etc. For me, it is part of the experience of RVing & camping.

Some people expect an RV to be built at the same level as an automobile. But cars & trucks are heavily regulated by DOT, NHTSA, States, etc. and the manufacturers build MILLIONS of units. In the last 5 years, new car sales have run between 15-17 million/year.

On the other hand, new RV sales have run about 355 thousand/year. The typical RV "manufacturer" is actually more of an RV "assembler" - they purchase parts from other manufacturers (frames, axles, suspension, tires/wheels, doors/doorways, ramps, windows, leveling systems, hatches/hatch openings, steps, appliances, electrical components, etc.); they might build the floor, walls, and ceiling and then take all of these 3rd party parts along with lots of pipes, wires, duct work etc. and "assemble" them into what we call an RV. They do all this in a very competitive industry using the least expensive labor possible in the shortest time frame imaginable. This doesn't always lead to the best quality control - but it DOES provide the consumer (like me) the opportunity to buy a very nice portable living space at a very affordable price!

It doesn't have to be this way! If you are looking for a trouble-free new RV and dealers who will support your every request, get out your first $350,000 (as a starting point - could stretch into $ millions depending on how picky you want to be) and buy one of the high end coaches. If you want a Ferrari or Rolls Royce, stop grumbling and pay the price.

For me, I'm happy with a Ford or Chevy and enjoy spending some of the weekend leaning over the hood setting the timing and changing the plugs!

[sourdough]

We have a 2018 Raptor 353TS that we purchased in May of 2019 - couldn't walk away from a rig we loved at a dealer we also loved. That said, there were some issues to deal with - but we expected that to be the case. I may be odd, but I actually enjoy testing everything, finding things I want to change/improve, making small repairs, etc. For me, it is part of the experience of RVing & camping.

Some people expect an RV to be built at the same level as an automobile. But cars & trucks are heavily regulated by DOT, NHTSA, States, etc. and the manufacturers build MILLIONS of units. In the last 5 years, new car sales have run between 15-17 million/year.

On the other hand, new RV sales have run about 355 thousand/year. The typical RV "manufacturer" is actually more of an RV "assembler" - they purchase parts from other manufacturers (frames, axles, suspension, tires/wheels, doors/doorways, ramps, windows, leveling systems, hatches/hatch openings, steps, appliances, electrical components, etc.); they might build the floor, walls, and ceiling and then take all of these 3rd party parts along with lots of pipes, wires, duct work etc. and "assemble" them into what we call an RV. They do all this in a very competitive industry using the least expensive labor possible in the shortest time frame imaginable. This doesn't always lead to the best quality control - but it DOES provide the consumer (like me) the opportunity to buy a very nice portable living space at a very affordable price!

It doesn't have to be this way! If you are looking for a trouble-free new RV and dealers who will support your every request, get out your first $350,000 (as a starting point - could stretch into $ millions depending on how picky you want to be) and buy one of the high end coaches. If you want a Ferrari or Rolls Royce, stop grumbling and pay the price.

For me, I'm happy with a Ford or Chevy and enjoy spending some of the weekend leaning over the hood setting the timing and changing the plugs!


^^^^^Great post!! You get it and I'm loving it!!

[RWRiley]

It doesn't have to be this way! If you are looking for a trouble-free new RV and dealers who will support your every request, get out your first $350,000 (as a starting point - could stretch into $ millions depending on how picky you want to be) and buy one of the high end coaches. If you want a Ferrari or Rolls Royce, stop grumbling and pay the price.

For me, I'm happy with a Ford or Chevy and enjoy spending some of the weekend leaning over the hood setting the timing and changing the plugs!

Which is exactly what Ford and Chevy thought until Honda and Toyota took them to the woodshed and taught them a lesson they would never forget. You can put out a quality product AND be competitive with price.

The RV industry will continue to put out crap as long as we buy it. And I'm just as guilty as the next guy. Like I said before, the only reason I put up with the crap they put out is because I love camping. It doesn't have to be this way. Price vs Quality is a false choice. We CAN have both.

[German Shepherd Guy]

:popcorn:Great thread. The OP now long gone. And some good points made all around :cool:
My very first, new out-of-the-box RV was purchased this time last year. Before that I had always purchased used from individuals. (think Craigs List)
Now, as some know, I breed and show German Shepherd Dogs (GSDs) all around the country. We have bred 17 litters over 25 years. It always amazes me that people do not do more research before coming to buy a puppy. A majority are ignorant of genetic problems and diseases and just what do they want a dog for and what job (yep, all dogs need jobs, even if that job is sitting in a lap getting petted) do they want the dog to do.
Brings us back to RVs. I SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER. :rolleyes: I did in RVs what many puppy buyers do to us. I didn't know of the existence of a forum like this so of course didn't see or hear all the talk about TVs or quality control. Was not until after I bought it that John directed me to the buyers check list. I joined the list AFTER I had purchased. (Sooooo glad I did :)) I did not project the defect I think about puppy buyers into my own situation in buying an RV and I think I am more typical of the majority than not. Now OP, after his initial experience, :facepalm: should have known better. And, thankfully, as a retired blacksmith, I am fairly handy and enjoy doing "projects". But not every one is and how would it feel to buy that new Truck and then have to spend hours every month cobbling together things to make it work?
(Makes me think of US cars from the late 60's/early 70's)
How to make first time buyers more aware of the issues of RV ownership? Forums like this are great, but how to reach people before they buy? :confused:
Thanks to all in this forum community :cool:, without you guys I would be like the disappearing OP, but instead here I am, " projecting" weekly on my brand new 26RBPR. :lol:

[wiredgeorge]

I'm assuming you consider yourself one of those curmudgeon "commentators" that jump into every thread with zeal, not shy about giving your opinion, one of those that just "like to hear themselves talk" etc.??:)

Moi? Just doing my best to balance the cosmic scales! Grumpy on one side and sarcastic on the other! :lol:

I liked the argument that the big 3 (chevy, ford and the other one) were quality nighmares until the Japanese came through with better cars that made the big 3 up their game. The problem with making this analogy fit the RV game is that there is no Japanese with a better product. For the most parts, the RV game is inbred in a small corner of Indiana along with their suppliers of junk frames, appliances and construction materials.

I predict that the RV industry will be a center of slip shod construction using somewhat poor quality components until the cows come home. I doubt RV owners will ever band together, pull out the torches and pitchforks and yell in unity for a change in product and quality control. It is what it is.

[sourdough]

Moi? Just doing my best to balance the cosmic scales! Grumpy on one side and sarcastic on the other! :lol:

I liked the argument that the big 3 (chevy, ford and the other one) were quality nighmares until the Japanese came through with better cars that made the big 3 up their game. The problem with making this analogy fit the RV game is that there is no Japanese with a better product. For the most parts, the RV game is inbred in a small corner of Indiana along with their suppliers of junk frames, appliances and construction materials.

I predict that the RV industry will be a center of slip shod construction using somewhat poor quality components until the cows come home. I doubt RV owners will ever band together, pull out the torches and pitchforks and yell in unity for a change in product and quality control. It is what it is.


I'm afraid you're right and nothing is going to change it. With first time buyers packing the RV lots wanting an entry level trailer they can pull with the family minivan with a payment of $100 mo. or less, the current production standards and methods are not going to change simply because the consumer wants what is being produced. It is what it is and there is no "Japanese" cavalry coming over the hill.

[travelin texans]

Even if the foreign cavalry arrived building rvs it most likely would be like their autos, designed/built for a population their size that folks my size DO NOT fit in.

[JRTJH]

Think back to the original "early '70's Honda 600 later called the Civic", the Toyota Corolla and Datsun (before the days of Nissan)...

Back then, I couldn't "unfold" to get out of a Honda 600, the Corolla's dash literally disintegrated in the California desert sun and the seats in the Datsun were "steel tractor seat frames, covered with cheap foam and imitation Naugahyde that peeled off the cotton backing, usually before the car's 12 month, 12,000 mile warranty expired....

Those "great Japanese imports that turned the domestic auto industry on its collective head" were CRAP when they first came to the US. They were too small, built for the Japanese market and the primary reason they "estabilished a foothold here was cost. CHEAP, usually $1000 or more less than a Vega or a Pinto or Maverick. But, it wasn't until after they established a "cheap alternative to the junk built in Detroit" did they start improving.....

Imagine what the YUGO would have been had it improved the product, changed its name from Datsun to Nissan and increased the price to equal the Escort or Vega.....

[sourdough]

First Japanese cars I ever saw when they first came over, we all just laughed our tails off at what tiny, junky things they were. By 1972 I bought my first Toyota; a new Celica. Bought it because it didn't look like anything from the US and had so many multicolored gauges, lights and cool instrument layout. Kept it for a year. The seats were made for midgets, they were so narrow you didn't fit (and I was skinny back then)and the steering wheel was offset for some reason so you were twisted when you were driving??? They had at least really upped their quality by then and that 4 cylinder was so quiet and didn't leak a drop of anything anywhere.

So much for Japanese cars and their history in our car market. There is no such thing in, or coming to, the American RV market, and, who wants an RV made for a midget anyway??:D

[flybouy]

I to recall the first Japanese cheap cars to hit the shores. You could stand beside them hear them rust.

I'm a firm believer that the US consumer has no one to blame but themselves. When Sam Walton founded WalMart he would only sell "American Made". Well the competition changed that. Wiredgeorge stop reading now as I'm "going to travel down memory lane" here.

I recall a time people actually saved up their money and bought an appliance, or a car, or whatever. It was a major investment and it was expected to last a long time or brand loyalty was a huge factor.

Fast forward to the last 4 or 5 decades and consumers want it NOW and they want it CHEAP. I think the "credit to all" is partly to blame as it certainly enabled a lot of folks to adopt that mantra. Even the "upscale" "upcarge" items are no longer necessarily "higher quality" but rather just more glitzy and trendy. Do you really need a refrigerator with a computer monitor on the door and a WiFi connection? This has transgressed into a "disposable" society. Don't believe it? When was the last time you saw an appliance repairman? IF you can find one the majority of the time they will tell you to replace a TV or washing machine because it cost's to much to repair it.

What I can't understand is why people don't get it. Consumers brought this on and now they kick and scream about the low quality and at the same time Kick and scream that the price is too high. I agree that a "better balance" can be achieved but don't go to McDonalds expecting the meat from Ruth Chris to be on the bun. JMHO

[wiredgeorge]

Geesh. Now I have to get in on the "when I was a lad" trend... first car was a 62 Corvair. Yeah, Ralph Nader would have disapproved. It was "UNSAFE AT ANY SPEED" (if you can remember the book that described my car. Mine was 5 or 6 years old when I bought it and had a later Monza engine installed which about doubled the power of the original mill. Taught my now wife to drive in that car. Learned how to replace a clutch. :lol: Then, just sitting in my Mom's driveway, the wiring harness shorted and burned up... looked like a fuse burning. Learned how to replace a wiring harness. :facepalm:

Anyway, got rid of the pig and bought an MG Midget. Almost got my master's degree in car repair right there. magnetos, fuel pumps (carried a spare in the boot) and it felt like you were sitting on a skate board when you drove the thing. Took the gal I was to marry and who had burned my Corvair clutch up to take her driver's test in that thing because you could front pull into a parking spot to pass your parallel parking test! Big ol' boy driving test guy in a uniform with jack boots stood on the curb and said, "I can't get into that thing" but eventually managed and my wife passed first time! The folks who assembled the MG immigrated to Indiana I think. :lol:

[wiredgeorge]

Think back to the original "early '70's Honda 600 later called the Civic", the Toyota Corolla and Datsun (before the days of Nissan)...

Back then, I couldn't "unfold" to get out of a Honda 600, the Corolla's dash literally disintegrated in the California desert sun and the seats in the Datsun were "steel tractor seat frames, covered with cheap foam and imitation Naugahyde that peeled off the cotton backing, usually before the car's 12 month, 12,000 mile warranty expired....

Those "great Japanese imports that turned the domestic auto industry on its collective head" were CRAP when they first came to the US. They were too small, built for the Japanese market and the primary reason they "estabilished a foothold here was cost. CHEAP, usually $1000 or more less than a Vega or a Pinto or Maverick. But, it wasn't until after they established a "cheap alternative to the junk built in Detroit" did they start improving.....

Imagine what the YUGO would have been had it improved the product, changed its name from Datsun to Nissan and increased the price to equal the Escort or Vega.....

OK... I have personally have owned 2 Japanese cars. First was a Honda 2 seat sports car made for the Japanese market. I owned it on Okinawa when stationed there. It NEVER ran. Sold and replaced it with a Datsun Sunny. It did run unless it was raining; hence the name Sunny. Had to borrow a car to get my missus to the base hospital for the birth of our #2 kiddo as it was raining when we went. Nothing against Japanese vehicles but I do remember when "Made in Japan" was sort of a joke.

And speaking of a Vega; owned a Vega wagon for 9 years when stationed overseas with the govt. as a civilian. Put less than 5K miles on the thing in that time. It was pulled out of ship's hold coming back to the States and dropped (obviously) as the suspension was messed up and it rattled badly. Might still be driving that 72 Vega wagon if not for that mishap. Not sure what its tow rating was though... :popcorn:

[Northofu1]

Has anyone in here watched the movie " Idiocracy"?
This is it folks. It has been happening since humans have been on the planet.
:popcorn:

[flybouy]

I have seen the movie.
I think the next big "change" that will weed out a lot of the stupidity on the planet will be some "catastrophic" global event that wipes out the satellites and the power grid world wide. The idiots won't know how to find their way around the block, or fend for themselves in a world without Google.

[jimborokz]

Which is exactly what Ford and Chevy thought until Honda and Toyota took them to the woodshed and taught them a lesson they would never forget. You can put out a quality product AND be competitive with price.

The RV industry will continue to put out crap as long as we buy it. And I'm just as guilty as the next guy. Like I said before, the only reason I put up with the crap they put out is because I love camping. It doesn't have to be this way. Price vs Quality is a false choice. We CAN have both.

This is basically what I said on a different post that gravitated to discussion on quality. The Japanese competition brought, no forced quality on Ford and GM. I think our problem is the RV market is not large enough to attract a foreign competitor to teach Goshen how to do quality and still maintain decent pricing. Grand Design seems to be trying to do that and if they can grab enough market share from Thor you'll see some change.

[JRTJH]

This is basically what I said on a different post that gravitated to discussion on quality. The Japanese competition brought, no forced quality on Ford and GM. I think our problem is the RV market is not large enough to attract a foreign competitor to teach Goshen how to do quality and still maintain decent pricing. Grand Design seems to be trying to do that and if they can grab enough market share from Thor you'll see some change.

I don't know that Grand Design builds a "better RV" than any other manufacturer, rather it's how they react to fixing problems when they occur.

ALL of the materials and components used are essentially the same as Forest River, Keystone (and the rest of THOR), Winnebago and any other RV builder... They all use the same appliances, chassis, tires, wheels, aluminum tube, doors, windows, TPO, coroplast, DACOR, carpet, furniture, ducting, mattresses, carpet/vinyl, etc...

GD builds using the same construction techniques, same adhesives, same "too may staples" same Robertson #2 screws, same sealants and same workers (as they get upset or fired and move to the next plant down the road).

The significant "difference" between GD and Keystone, IMHO is the "scripting" used by Customer Service.... At Keystone, they answer the phone by saying, "Good Morning, This is Anna at Keystone Customer Service, can I help you?" At GD, they answer the phone by saying, "Good Morning, This is Anna at Grand Designs Customer Service, I CAN help you."

The $4000-5000 extra cost for a GD trailer (can usually be negotiated to much less) if the owner could buy a "upbeat CS policy" for their Keystone, would likely result in much improvement with complaints from Keystone buyers. We'd likely hear more reports of, "My window leaked, my floor rotted, but Keystone fixed it and paid the two payments while they had it at the factory"......

Otherwise, if you read the GD forum, you'll see, for the most part, exactly the same, "My mattress is crap, my regulator won't change over, where's my water pump, my battery was dead when I went to pick up my trailer, my black tank flush won't flow" The list of "What were they thinking?" is nearly identical to what you read on this forum, sometimes I wonder if people buy a Keystone, a Forest River and a GD and join all three forums and get their trailer mixed up as they post a complaint....

I'm not knocking GD, sort of wish Keystone management would use the same customer support philosophy, but don't see that happening as long as the investors are getting a return on their investment and dealers keep placing orders faster than the factory can "sling 'em together".....

Anyway,

[roadglide]

My first new camper wa 2003 ultralight 28 ft fifver fleetwood . I gave to my son a few years back it has been in hot and cold NM weather 17 years no leaks or problems other then decals and tires. Fleetwood was know for problems, it came with 2 year warranty and the service tecs knew there job. That low end fiver was a lot of bang for the buck .

[travelin texans]

Just FYI, Winnebago bought out Grand Design a couple years ago! Good or bad??

[roadglide]

Just FYI, Winnebago bought out Grand Design a couple years ago! Good or bad??
Subject to satisfactory closing conditions and Regulatory approvals the agreement is set foreclosure in first quarter of fiscal year 2020.That will be a Newmar buyout.

[sourdough]

Just FYI, Winnebago bought out Grand Design a couple years ago! Good or bad??

I'm thinking Winnebago may be on a roll to up their game. They have been making some changes in their product line, bought Grand Design and about to acquire NewMar which makes some nice motorhomes. They may be a contender for a quality RV in a short period; pricing....who knows.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/winnebago-boosts-rv-portfolio-344m-143902266.html

[chuckster57]

I just left a dealership that sold/serviced Grand Design. Worked there for a little over 5 years, and I can say from personal experience that they do PDI cleaner than most. I know this is a Keystone forum, I own a Keystone product and the dealership I just started working for sells some Keystone products. Just PDI’d a 2020 Bullet, and it was pretty clean.
I can say that GD didn’t change much after the buyout, we thought the quality would fall but it didn’t. About the only change I noticed was “Winnebago” influenced paint schemes.

Give me a year and I’ll have more insight to keystone products. I will say that Forest River still leaves me wishing they would have less issues from the factory.

[LewisB]

Which is exactly what Ford and Chevy thought until Honda and Toyota took them to the woodshed and taught them a lesson they would never forget. You can put out a quality product AND be competitive with price.

The RV industry will continue to put out crap as long as we buy it. And I'm just as guilty as the next guy. Like I said before, the only reason I put up with the crap they put out is because I love camping. It doesn't have to be this way. Price vs Quality is a false choice. We CAN have both.

Thought of this thread when I saw an interesting review on YouTube of the VanLeigh BEACON fifth wheel. I believe this is a company that produces high end motor coaches and is trying to reach into the towable RV (5th wheel) market with a higher than normal quality level. Look up the prices for these units in RVTrader and you will see that the prices for a 40 foot 5th wheel run between 1.5 and 2.0 times the price of my 2018 Keystone Raptor. They use most of the same appliances and fixtures - but the quality does seem much higher! Let's see - Raptor for $70K - Beacon for $140K. Yup, there is a choice. I'll go back to my prior post - if you want a Mercedes, pay the price. If you are happy with a Ford, then let's go camping!

[travelin texans]

Thought of this thread when I saw an interesting review on YouTube of the VanLeigh BEACON fifth wheel. I believe this is a company that produces high end motor coaches and is trying to reach into the towable RV (5th wheel) market with a higher than normal quality level. Look up the prices for these units in RVTrader and you will see that the prices for a 40 foot 5th wheel run between 1.5 and 2.0 times the price of my 2018 Keystone Raptor. They use most of the same appliances and fixtures - but the quality does seem much higher! Let's see - Raptor for $70K - Beacon for $140K. Yup, there is a choice. I'll go back to my prior post - if you want a Mercedes, pay the price. If you are happy with a Ford, then let's go camping!

VanLeigh is the combined name of 2 Tiffin boys of Tiffin motorhome company.

[BauerAP]

I’ll probably be banned for this post but what’s wrong with this forum? Someone comes here for help and is immediately chastised and ridiculed. I dropped my keystone off last week for warranty repairs. If they don’t want us to use it then why have a warranty. I understand these units are made by humans and humans will be human. Things happen.
What would you do if McDonalds gave you a chicken sandwich instead of a Big Mac? Or you asked for no onions and guess what? There they are. You would send it back for it to be made right. Why is there an issue with someone doing the same with a $30-100k purchase? While my Sprinter is under warranty it will go to the dealer. When it expires will I pay someone $100/hr for something I can do? Absolutely not.
Why can’t this forum just answer an OPs question? It seems like there are two answers here. Get a 1 ton dually or get an EMS.
What is the best ladder for a bunk house? Answer: I need your weights to make sure you have enough truck to tow your 10k bunkhouse model.
Is this just my view or is there anyone else that seems to have the same opinion? I still check in from time to time but not a couple times a day like I did before.

[Logan X]

Maybe try less caffeine...

[sourdough]

I’ll probably be banned for this post but what’s wrong with this forum? Someone comes here for help and is immediately chastised and ridiculed. I dropped my keystone off last week for warranty repairs. If they don’t want us to use it then why have a warranty. I understand these units are made by humans and humans will be human. Things happen.
What would you do if McDonalds gave you a chicken sandwich instead of a Big Mac? Or you asked for no onions and guess what? There they are. You would send it back for it to be made right. Why is there an issue with someone doing the same with a $30-100k purchase? While my Sprinter is under warranty it will go to the dealer. When it expires will I pay someone $100/hr for something I can do? Absolutely not.
Why can’t this forum just answer an OPs question? It seems like there are two answers here. Get a 1 ton dually or get an EMS.
What is the best ladder for a bunk house? Answer: I need your weights to make sure you have enough truck to tow your 10k bunkhouse model.
Is this just my view or is there anyone else that seems to have the same opinion? I still check in from time to time but not a couple times a day like I did before.


Maybe you read more into the responses that what is there or don't read enough of them.

I try to read almost all of them. When referring to using your warranty the posts are probably 50/50 whether to use it or not. They all will depend on the problem AND the part stressed on those saying to not use it is the wait time factor along with the quality of repair - that's it. If you have the expertise and tools it is recommended by many to fix it yourself. It is not a "forum" response but various responses from individual members with different experiences.

As far as the sandwich analogy; if I got a chicken sandwich instead of a Big Mac....I eat it. Not worth the effort to complain or wait. If I order no onions (my wife always does) and it comes with onions (they always do) she picks them off; again, not worth the effort to complain or wait. Same goes for little things that happen on an RV. To each his own, his patience level and/or desire to actually have the RV to use. Again, this is an individual preference and opinion from our members. Whether you value those opinions or not is up to you.

[LHaven]

I didn't know of the existence of a forum like this so of course didn't see or hear all the talk about TVs or quality control. Was not until after I bought it that John directed me to the buyers check list. I joined the list AFTER I had purchased. (Sooooo glad I did :))

How to make first time buyers more aware of the issues of RV ownership? Forums like this are great, but how to reach people before they buy? :confused:

When I bought my first rig in 1998, I went out looking for some type of Consumer Reports groups for RVs. I discovered RV Consumer Group, which back then published large physical phonebook-sized directories of RV manufacturers and models, with detailed ratings for each one. We made our selection from that information and were extremely pleased with the results. We had a quality rig that lasted us 20 almost problem-free years, with only one delivery-time gotcha (don't remember what it was) and one first-trip gotcha (blown grease seal).

By the time I was in the market for this rig, I had entirely forgotten about the group (now called rv.org and operating on the net) and unreasonably assumed that the quality we found in our previous trailer would be more or less the norm. We sure learned better.

Unfortunately, the group seems to be a shadow of its former self. It used to advertise aggressively, now they just seem to skate along running a website.

[LHaven]

Just FYI, Winnebago bought out Grand Design a couple years ago! Good or bad??

Winnebago bought out the manufacturers of my previous TT (Sunnybrook) six or seven years ago, and now they manufacture nothing even resembling the quality or specs of that line, or I would have bought one. So in my experience, bad.

[flybouy]

I’ll probably be banned for this post but what’s wrong with this forum? Someone comes here for help and is immediately chastised and ridiculed. I dropped my keystone off last week for warranty repairs. If they don’t want us to use it then why have a warranty. I understand these units are made by humans and humans will be human. Things happen.
What would you do if McDonalds gave you a chicken sandwich instead of a Big Mac? Or you asked for no onions and guess what? There they are. You would send it back for it to be made right. Why is there an issue with someone doing the same with a $30-100k purchase? While my Sprinter is under warranty it will go to the dealer. When it expires will I pay someone $100/hr for something I can do? Absolutely not.
Why can’t this forum just answer an OPs question? It seems like there are two answers here. Get a 1 ton dually or get an EMS.
What is the best ladder for a bunk house? Answer: I need your weights to make sure you have enough truck to tow your 10k bunkhouse model.
Is this just my view or is there anyone else that seems to have the same opinion? I still check in from time to time but not a couple times a day like I did before.

As with any written document, or transcript, you can't read "sections" or "selections" and have them taken out of context. I do think the industry needs a "correction" concerning warranty repairs/issues. How do we arrive at that "correction"? Well that's the million dollar question, at leas in my mind.

Would I accept an incorrect sandwich? Well that depends. How much is my time worth? How long can I go without the sandwich is remade? Last time I checked no RV dealer has a pit crew waiting for the arrival of someone with a warranty claim. The dealer also, unlike the fast food restaurant, does not have the authority to correct the issue. The RV dealer must get Keystone's approval first. So to use your example, if I got the wrong sandwich and had to wait for the manager to contact McDonald's corporate to issue a corrected sandwich, then wait for McDonald's corporate to send the ingredients to make a corrected sandwich then yes, I guess I'd accept the sandwich and eat it.

But this is what I DON'T understand. If McDonald's treated me that way I certianly would not return the next time I'm hungry.

[ctbruce]

Paul, BauerAP, Sourdough hit it right in the head with those who say don't use warranty. It is not because they are afraid to use their warranty. Quite the opposite. They have used the warranty in the past and it took way too long to fix an easily fixable problem or the work that was done was not up to their standards. Either way, they found from past experience that it's faster and done better by doing it themselves. And they have shared this opinion with the forum.

Its easy to miss this if you don't read every post that is put on here.

Why would you be banned for your comment? It's not correct but it's your opinion and was polite. This isn't Russia. The moderators very rarely ban someone and that is only for blatant or premeditated violations of Forum rules.

[notanlines]

Paul, why would you be banned? (I guess that question has already been asked) After all, you didn't come out of the closet as a Notre Dame fan or some such atrocity. :eek:
It is nice however, if a member would read ALL the comments, not just the first post and then jump four pages back and make a recommendation. Now I've gotten off-task, probably irritating to some.
Nonetheless, I believe you to be wrong, but that doesn't make it so.

[wiredgeorge]

Winnebago bought out the manufacturers of my previous TT (Sunnybrook) six or seven years ago, and now they manufacture nothing even resembling the quality or specs of that line, or I would have bought one. So in my experience, bad.

I owned a Sunnybrook... a lower end travel trailer (can't remember the model right off) and it was by far the highest quality trailer I have owned. Fit and finish and attention to detail while assembling. I considered buying a Winnebago model that was very much the same as far looking at it but when I read comments from folks who owned them, most agreed quality was not there.

[wiredgeorge]

I’ll probably be banned for this post but what’s wrong with this forum? Someone comes here for help and is immediately chastised and ridiculed. I dropped my keystone off last week for warranty repairs. If they don’t want us to use it then why have a warranty. I understand these units are made by humans and humans will be human. Things happen.
What would you do if McDonalds gave you a chicken sandwich instead of a Big Mac? Or you asked for no onions and guess what? There they are. You would send it back for it to be made right. Why is there an issue with someone doing the same with a $30-100k purchase? While my Sprinter is under warranty it will go to the dealer. When it expires will I pay someone $100/hr for something I can do? Absolutely not.
Why can’t this forum just answer an OPs question? It seems like there are two answers here. Get a 1 ton dually or get an EMS.
What is the best ladder for a bunk house? Answer: I need your weights to make sure you have enough truck to tow your 10k bunkhouse model.
Is this just my view or is there anyone else that seems to have the same opinion? I still check in from time to time but not a couple times a day like I did before.

I agree 100 percent with you Mr. Bauer... they are ALL DOO-DOO heads except you and me, right? By the way, I own a one ton (couldn't afford a dually) and use a Progressive EMS). The doo-doo heads talked me into it and I bought these things against my will! :rolleyes:

[LHaven]

It is not because they are afraid to use their warranty. Quite the opposite. They have used the warranty in the past and it took way too long to fix an easily fixable problem or the work that was done was not up to their standards. Either way, they found from past experience that it's faster and done better by doing it themselves.


Here's a great example: went to take off my spare tire to relocate the valve to the bottom so I could fill it easier with the tire cover on. The bolt had been cross threaded at the factory, and would not come off (just sat there and spun in the holder). Couldn't get it off without marring or damaging the wheel. Having learned about the warranty delays at this point, I removed the tire carrier and brought only the carrier and spare into the dealer.

Not only did it take him a month to finish the job, but he damaged both the carrier and the wheel, so the only original part I got back was the tire. A month for a cross threaded bolt might be some kind of record.

[jimborokz]

Paul, BauerAP, Sourdough hit it right in the head with those who say don't use warranty. It is not because they are afraid to use their warranty. Quite the opposite. They have used the warranty in the past and it took way too long to fix an easily fixable problem or the work that was done was not up to their standards. Either way, they found from past experience that it's faster and done better by doing it themselves. And they have shared this opinion with the forum.

Its easy to miss this if you don't read every post that is put on here.

Why would you be banned for your comment? It's not correct but it's your opinion and was polite. This isn't Russia. The moderators very rarely ban someone and that is only for blatant or premeditated violations of Forum rules.

Seems I have had a much different experience with warranty work than most others on the forum. I don't know how much Keystone influences warranty work, seems to be more a factor of the dealer doing the work and the quality and experience in the service dept.

We are half timers snowbirding for the winter in the south and parking the 5er in the north for the summer. (sure makes winterizing easier) For both of the last two summers I have had my rig to the dealer for warranty work and I try to pick their busiest time so I can get some "free storage" from them as they take several months for repairs. Well, each time I get a call in about a week that the monty is ready to be picked up. Hmmm.
So now we're south and I have an axel issue and we're zipping north for the Holidays so I drop it at a local dealer that has a solid reputation and tell him "I know this is short notice, but take your time as I don't need it back till Jan"
He says wow I can't keep it that long, we will likely be done In a week or so. So they're going to deliver it back to my rv site when it's finished.
Maybe everyone should take their rig in and tell the service manager you don't want it back for two months and see what they say. It's like getting your kids to do something by telling them not to do that. Ya know, reverse psychology.
ps. yes, most little things I just do myself.

[travelin texans]

I’ll probably be banned for this post but what’s wrong with this forum? Someone comes here for help and is immediately chastised and ridiculed. I dropped my keystone off last week for warranty repairs. If they don’t want us to use it then why have a warranty. I understand these units are made by humans and humans will be human. Things happen.
What would you do if McDonalds gave you a chicken sandwich instead of a Big Mac? Or you asked for no onions and guess what? There they are. You would send it back for it to be made right. Why is there an issue with someone doing the same with a $30-100k purchase? While my Sprinter is under warranty it will go to the dealer. When it expires will I pay someone $100/hr for something I can do? Absolutely not.
Why can’t this forum just answer an OPs question? It seems like there are two answers here. Get a 1 ton dually or get an EMS.
What is the best ladder for a bunk house? Answer: I need your weights to make sure you have enough truck to tow your 10k bunkhouse model.
Is this just my view or is there anyone else that seems to have the same opinion? I still check in from time to time but not a couple times a day like I did before.

Don't think you'll get banned for ranting your opinion that's formed from miss reading or not reading all the info.
If you/anyone want to take your rv to your dealer for warranty repairs then by all means do so!!
If you/anyone wants to tow a 16k 5th wheel with a V6 F150 go right ahead, just let us know where you are going so we can avoid the accident.
Those of us with years of RV experience are only trying to inform others of the pitfalls of too small of tv & what can/usually happens with warranty repairs. You do both as you see fit!
I want the use of my rv whenever we're ready to head out & not driving by the dealership for months on end waiting for them to replace a piece of trim or change a light fixture that I could do in a matter of minutes & do a better job of it.
Johns analogy of the sandwich scenario it spot on with the actual way the majority of warranty repairs go, hurry up & wait.

[sourdough]

As with any written document, or transcript, you can't read "sections" or "selections" and have them taken out of context. I do think the industry needs a "correction" concerning warranty repairs/issues. How do we arrive at that "correction"? Well that's the million dollar question, at leas in my mind.

Would I accept an incorrect sandwich? Well that depends. How much is my time worth? How long can I go without the sandwich is remade? Last time I checked no RV dealer has a pit crew waiting for the arrival of someone with a warranty claim. The dealer also, unlike the fast food restaurant, does not have the authority to correct the issue. The RV dealer must get Keystone's approval first. So to use your example, if I got the wrong sandwich and had to wait for the manager to contact McDonald's corporate to issue a corrected sandwich, then wait for McDonald's corporate to send the ingredients to make a corrected sandwich then yes, I guess I'd accept the sandwich and eat it.

But this is what I DON'T understand. If McDonald's treated me that way I certianly would not return the next time I'm hungry.



Let me clarify. We don't eat at McDonald's but do like hamburgers. My comment reflected the scenario we generally have when requesting specific ingredients on a burger. At a McDonalds (or any other fast food place) if I was given a chicken sandwich vs a burger I would eat it because they both taste about the same to me. Add onions when I (or DW) didn't want them? The same. Again, not worth the effort or time (on a scale of 1-10 my patience comes in at about -1). Now, if I'm in a real restaurant paying $12 for a burger (as I'm about to do), yes, I will send it back because I want "that one" right. :)

[flybouy]

I agree 100 percent with you Mr. Bauer... they are ALL DOO-DOO heads except you and me, right? By the way, I own a one ton (couldn't afford a dually) and use a Progressive EMS). The doo-doo heads talked me into it and I bought these things against my will! :rolleyes:

wiredgeorge I thought they were all DOO-DOO heads except for you and me, and I'm not too sure about you.....:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[wiredgeorge]

wiredgeorge I thought they were all DOO-DOO heads except for you and me, and I'm not too sure about you.....:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Ok... gotta wait to see if Mr. Bauer will let someone else in the non doo-doo head group. I gotta admit there are some forceful voices who definitely don't like any disagreement with their strong and vociferous views but heck, that is normal on any forum. BTW: Should I buy a dually? I haven't been over a truck scales and afraid my carrying the Progressive EMS might have me over weight. Plus I am kind of portly and that sags my trucks springs and shocks without having the 5ver hitched. What can I do? :hide:

[flybouy]

Ok... gotta wait to see if Mr. Bauer will let someone else in the non doo-doo head group. I gotta admit there are some forceful voices who definitely don't like any disagreement with their strong and vociferous views but heck, that is normal on any forum. BTW: Should I buy a dually? I haven't been over a truck scales and afraid my carrying the Progressive EMS might have me over weight. Plus I am kind of portly and that sags my trucks springs and shocks without having the 5ver hitched. What can I do? :hide:

Yes it is "typical" in forums but from my experiences in different forums I believe this is one of the most helpful, civil forums out there. I love reading others views and engaging in conversations and helping in any way that I can. Sometimes people's views can be strong or end up as confrontational.

Some folks, when challenged on a statement that may lead the uninformed in a direction that could lead to a very negative experience, will turn to a personal attack. In my mind it's near impossible to argue with fact and logic. This can frustrate the person making the "emotional" based argument, especially when they are receiving a view that does not align with theirs.

It never ceases to amaze me how people will ask and sometimes beg for help and advice then want to argue with the advice given. It would be more honest if they just started with "this is what I did (or want to do), please give me an attaboy and don't give me any other views" and sign it Narcissus101.

As for your weight I have no "room" to comment s I'm no "light-weight" in that dept. (puns intended). :whistling: I wouldn't postulate on your truck's capability or your requirements for a TV. :)

[chuckster57]

Well said. I have a dually, so I don’t worry about how much dessert I eat...and I have airbags to overcome any doubts about how much Diet Coke I can carry.

Yes there are those that ask in true desire for real knowledge and guidance, and there are those that like to “toss a piece of meat” into the shark tank just to sit back and watch the feeding frenzy.

I have yanked a fiver since 1989, and now have worked on these things (towable and drivable) for the last 8 years. I try my best to give accurate information, even if that means tossing another piece of meat in the tank. Sometimes it’s a steak and the OP wanted chicken... but you get what you get when you ask for “meat”

Ok I’m off to do some stuff around the house since I actually have 2 days off now thanks to my new employer, fishing will NOT be included.

[flybouy]

Chuck enjoy your "chores" and the warm weather out there on the left coast. It's low 20's here this a.m. Can't image what John and others "up north" awakened to.:eek:

[JRTJH]

Chuck enjoy your "chores" and the warm weather out there on the left coast. It's low 20's here this a.m. Can't image what John and others "up north" awakened to.:eek:

Only about 4" of snow on the ground now. We've had about 14" fall, but between the warm concrete and ground and the daytime highs, it's melting so limited shoveling, mainly the steps on the decks and porches...

It was 11 yesterday morning, 14 today, so a "warming trend" with no temps in the single digits "YET"..... Monday's forecast low is the first of those "one number temps".... No sign of those with a "-" in front.... yet.....

[sourdough]

Only about 4" of snow on the ground now. We've had about 14" fall, but between the warm concrete and ground and the daytime highs, it's melting so limited shoveling, mainly the steps on the decks and porches...

It was 11 yesterday morning, 14 today, so a "warming trend" with no temps in the single digits "YET"..... Monday's forecast low is the first of those "one number temps".... No sign of those with a "-" in front.... yet.....


Boy, I can empathize!! Our friends from MI that park beside us each year just got in Sat., a day later than intended saying when they left there was snow on the ground and they needed to get out. Yesterday, a front came through drizzling all day. Went to bed last night and woke up this morning and it was FRIDGID!! It was so cold I didn't want to get out from under the covers. Told our friends they should have left the cold stuff up north; those fridgid 40 degree temps just don't belong here in FL.....:lol::lol::lol::lol: Returning to upper 60s today then in the 70s going forward so maybe we will thaw out. :D

[Zooms2]

I bought a 2019 Montana High Country and it had a lot of minor issues, nuts missing off the toilet seat, bathroom door top rail not connected ice maker water supply line not connected, etc., but I fixed all those, the issue I can't fix is the auto leveling system. I have followed the instructions on the CD and had it back to the dealer twice. The last time they tried to charge me for "resetting" the system. I ask them to demo the system when I bought it but they said they would need to hook up and then unhook the trailer and it was late on a Saturday so I took it home. The system failed, I took it back and they said it was fixed. I got it home and failed again. Took it back and they kept the unit for over two weeks and told me they have found and fixed the unit. Took it home and it failed again. It's an $80,000 trailer, is anyone else having an issue with the auto level. The minor issues I blame on the dealer, this is the third trailer I have bought from them and everyone had minor issues, Dutchman, Jayco, and now Keystone but this is the first one that apparently they can't fix.

[chuckster57]

I bought a 2019 Montana High Country and it had a lot of minor issues, nuts missing off the toilet seat, bathroom door top rail not connected ice maker water supply line not connected, etc., but I fixed all those, the issue I can't fix is the auto leveling system. I have followed the instructions on the CD and had it back to the dealer twice. The last time they tried to charge me for "resetting" the system. I ask them to demo the system when I bought it but they said they would need to hook up and then unhook the trailer and it was late on a Saturday so I took it home. The system failed, I took it back and they said it was fixed. I got it home and failed again. Took it back and they kept the unit for over two weeks and told me they have found and fixed the unit. Took it home and it failed again. It's an $80,000 trailer, is anyone else having an issue with the auto level. The minor issues I blame on the dealer, this is the third trailer I have bought from them and everyone had minor issues, Dutchman, Jayco, and now Keystone but this is the first one that apparently they can't fix.

Which auto level system is it? Ground Control 3.0 or Level Up?

GC is electric and Level Up is hydraulic. Both systems are very reliable but they both have a different set of Troubleshooting steps.

[DocP]

I’ll probably be banned for this post but what’s wrong with this forum? Someone comes here for help and is immediately chastised and ridiculed. I dropped my keystone off last week for warranty repairs. If they don’t want us to use it then why have a warranty. I understand these units are made by humans and humans will be human. Things happen...

I get what you're saying, but this forum is infinitely better than others, and the vast majority of those who post provide valuable information and opinions. With regard to warranty, for me it comes down to the severity of the problem and a decision as to how long the dealer is going to sit on my camper while they get the necessary authorizations for a warranty repair and how long my camper is going to be out of service. Although I am only about 45 minutes from the dealers I typically buy from, it's still going to come down to a cost-benefit analysis of me doing the repairs (and learning more about how my camper works) versus letting the dealer deal with it. I guess that I've been fortunate over the past 40+ years of owning campers - on many occasions I have been able to get the manufacturer to mail parts to me under warranty and I do the repairs myself.

Again, I understand your underlying point, but this forum, in my opinion, is the best that I belong to, and will continue to come here long past the point where I stop buying Keystones.

[Roscommon48]

These RVs are what they are. Buyer just needs to know what they are getting.

[travelin texans]

Just curious??
Once the warranty has expired how will you handle the issues, there will be some, that show up then??
Do you have an extended warranty? Or then you'll do the repairs?

[chuckster57]

Extended warranties are a coin toss. I have seen some that are decent and others that aren't worth the paper they are written on. Most if not all only cover "component failure" and nothing structural/cosmetic. Even then it can be an uphill battle. I do know a little bit of how it works/doesn't. Hope your either very handy or have a lot of credit/cash to pay the person that does work on it.

[BSHGTO]

I don`t know what you guys are complaining about. This happens to every unit that goes out. So I think your making stuff up.LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khKkjbHMPRU

[flybouy]

I don`t know what you guys are complaining about. This happens to every unit that goes out. So I think your making stuff up.LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khKkjbHMPRU

Yup, and they sprinkle fairy dust on the roof, have blessed by a Guru, and fill the tires with unicorn farts.

[LHaven]

Yup, and they sprinkle fairy dust on the roof

...and inside all the cabinets, drawers, pantries, and storage spaces, with particular attention to the furnace sail switch.

[Northofu1]

I don`t know what you guys are complaining about. This happens to every unit that goes out. So I think your making stuff up.LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khKkjbHMPRU

:lol: I didn't know SNL was spoofing trailer companies, hilarious!

[flybouy]

She should get an Oscar for keeping a straight face.

[ctbruce]

No wonder no one from Keystone is on this forum. If they were it would melt those snowflakes instantly. Give me a break. Does that president actually go to the plants and see with his own eyes what is happening or what his money is paying for? And none of those gals looked Amish to me.

[sourdough]

When I first saw the video post I just didn't pay attention to it figuring it was some sort of spoof on Keystone quality. After the comments, and having an hour before we head to the beach :D, I watched it. Yep, it's gotta be some kind of spoof. I doubt seriously that the "president" has a clue what goes out the door. On the other hand, it's a great idea in concept.....now, if they could only execute!

[CaptnJohn]

With 5 auto-level systems at one time or another I'm extremely pleased. What I have learned is there is no reason to take a unit to the dealer. Call the help # long before closing. I have only had 1 problem but the tech stayed on the phone with me for 40 minutes until he and I were sure it was fixed. There are some codes not in the manual they will walk you through. Doubt your dealer tech would do that. Make sure your phone has a fully charged battery.



I bought a 2019 Montana High Country and it had a lot of minor issues, nuts missing off the toilet seat, bathroom door top rail not connected ice maker water supply line not connected, etc., but I fixed all those, the issue I can't fix is the auto leveling system. I have followed the instructions on the CD and had it back to the dealer twice. The last time they tried to charge me for "resetting" the system. I ask them to demo the system when I bought it but they said they would need to hook up and then unhook the trailer and it was late on a Saturday so I took it home. The system failed, I took it back and they said it was fixed. I got it home and failed again. Took it back and they kept the unit for over two weeks and told me they have found and fixed the unit. Took it home and it failed again. It's an $80,000 trailer, is anyone else having an issue with the auto level. The minor issues I blame on the dealer, this is the third trailer I have bought from them and everyone had minor issues, Dutchman, Jayco, and now Keystone but this is the first one that apparently they can't fix.

[CaptnJohn]

After 40 + years of pulling many makes and models. Most of my early units were TTs, only the 1st one used. Going back to the last 8 or so, had a Heartland with so many problems it was traded in 4 months. Next was 3 Forest River products, 1 TT and 2 5ers. Not one kept very long. Lots of items at PDI and many were continuing. Always something new coming, mostly minor but non-stop. Then a Cougar 5er. Had a furnace problem on the 1st trip, called Atwood, not the dealer. Fixed under warranty by mobile tech except for the service call. Next a Montana and it did go back to the dealer as a piece of trim was cut short. I sent them a picture they sent to Keystone and it went in for 2 hours to have that and some loose trim fixed. My current Montana had the switch for cap lights and OD flood switched, the only problem found.
I rarely use the warranty and never buy an extended maybe it's covered, probably not contract. I'm many thousands ahead now. There were a couple upgrades I wanted my mobile tech to do. I had him change the switches as I had not got to it yet. So, almost zero warranty on my last 3 Keystone 5ers.

[LHaven]

I don`t know what you guys are complaining about. This happens to every unit that goes out. So I think your making stuff up.LOL


Wow. The comments on that video are SCARY.

[RVbuying]

Been in my brand new montana HC since october 15. Previously mentioned the new front window leaking and how exciting it is. Now the front bedroom wall is leaking water also. So, multiple leaks it is. It looks awesome with a tarp on it which isnt working either! Heres some great news, im not going to take the front end off my camper and find out the insulation and walls have been soaked. I am going back to dealership and let them. Keysrone said there isnt any diagrams online of the skeleton to investigate water paths, nor does the dealership get access to this!! Thats fantastic, im going have them dismantle the entire front to find the leak. Those guys must love the ease keystone provides them to fix things. You know my kitchen linoleum raises with furnace on also, somewhere this was mentioned, added to list. Service starts mid december ill post issues as they develop. We're praying the front end falls off and the beams are folded over on themselves and ill get a 3rd camper in 8 months and try again. Or go to homebase and make my living. By the car and rent the cabin, its most cost effective with rising camp site prices. Dont gamble your retirement on RVs unless you got the money to piss away. If youre poor get that cabin and enjoy it

[sourdough]

Been in my brand new montana HC since october 15. Previously mentioned the new front window leaking and how exciting it is. Now the front bedroom wall is leaking water also. So, multiple leaks it is. It looks awesome with a tarp on it which isnt working either! Heres some great news, im not going to take the front end off my camper and find out the insulation and walls have been soaked. I am going back to dealership and let them. Keysrone said there isnt any diagrams online of the skeleton to investigate water paths, nor does the dealership get access to this!! Thats fantastic, im going have them dismantle the entire front to find the leak. Those guys must love the ease keystone provides them to fix things. You know my kitchen linoleum raises with furnace on also, somewhere this was mentioned, added to list. Service starts mid december ill post issues as they develop. We're praying the front end falls off and the beams are folded over on themselves and ill get a 3rd camper in 8 months and try again. Or go to homebase and make my living. By the car and rent the cabin, its most cost effective with rising camp site prices. Dont gamble your retirement on RVs unless you got the money to piss away. If youre poor get that cabin and enjoy it



I'm sorry you're having issues with your new trailer and you're plan to let the dealer deal with it is probably your best course of action and I wish you the best. Please do keep us posted.

As for the comment I highlighted in red I would have to disagree.:) Having owned mulitple getaway "cabins" (2 at one time - mountain, lake). I can assure you that the expenses associated with those far outweigh anything any RV I've ever owned cost me. Got rid of the lake house and trying to sell the mountain house. Spent 9k year before last just to cut trees to keep insurance (not to mention the thousands and thousands in years past). Nah....I'm loving an RV and thinking if you're poor it might not be a bad deal:D:D:D

[wiredgeorge]

[/COLOR]


I'm sorry you're having issues with your new trailer and you're plan to let the dealer deal with it is probably your best course of action and I wish you the best. Please do keep us posted.

As for the comment I highlighted in red I would have to disagree.:) Having owned mulitple getaway "cabins" (2 at one time - mountain, lake). I can assure you that the expenses associated with those far outweigh anything any RV I've ever owned cost me. Got rid of the lake house and trying to sell the mountain house. Spent 9k year before last just to cut trees to keep insurance (not to mention the thousands and thousands in years past). Nah....I'm loving an RV and thinking if you're poor it might not be a bad deal:D:D:D

We owned a timeshare in the Shenandoah mountains of VA. Now there is an investment! You figure this out when you try and sell it.... :lol:

[foldbak]

I guess they missed the pressure test on mine since every window leaked and had to be replaced :nonono:

[RVbuying]

Tough Love ???? Maybe a "Warm Welcome to the REAL WORLD" ??? How about the possibility of, "A couple of minutes on this or any other forum would have shown you what you're getting into with ANY RV.... BEFORE you bought."

Co-incidentally, the OP joined the forum, made the initial post (his only one) at 3:27 on 10/25/19. He then immediately signed off and has not returned.

Would the OP be a concerned RV'er looking for answers and/or assistance?? or possibly a SNIPER looking to "take a cheap, easy shot then "RUN for the hills" ????

I'd suppose the conclusion is up to each person who spends any time on this thread...... He’s back! I googled keystone rv warranty and repair or similar and this occupied the first 10 choices on google. If there was an all complaint forum or keystone complaint forum that they read, of course I would post there. But nope, it’s here for potential buyers, who want to read about this brand to see. So they know it’s not a plug and play. It’s possibly a nightmare. Today, I found Sinks are leaking floor is damaged in kitchen island and bathroom. Now I’ve only checked the kitchen island floor 4 times randomly since October purchase when the rig was in my possession so I haven’t looked daily. Just thought a future person should know. Am I gonna rip up the floors and replace along with change the sink? You Guessed right...hell no im going to work and earn money. I’m not a mechanic handy man and won’t be with an rv under warranty. See ya back in 6 weeks with another issue!

[LHaven]

If there was an all complaint forum or keystone complaint forum that they read, of course I would post there. But nope, it’s here for potential buyers, who want to read about this brand to see. So they know it’s not a plug and play. It’s possibly a nightmare.


Just curious: if you didn't come to this forum to research before you bought your rig, what makes you think the average buyer will? And if you did, how did you leave with the impression that RVs are plug and play?

[JRTJH]

. He’s back! I googled keystone rv warranty and repair or similar and this occupied the first 10 choices on google. If there was an all complaint forum or keystone complaint forum that they read, of course I would post there. But nope, it’s here for potential buyers, who want to read about this brand to see. So they know it’s not a plug and play. It’s possibly a nightmare. Today, I found Sinks are leaking floor is damaged in kitchen island and bathroom. Now I’ve only checked the kitchen island floor 4 times randomly since October purchase when the rig was in my possession so I haven’t looked daily. Just thought a future person should know. Am I gonna rip up the floors and replace along with change the sink? You Guessed right...hell no im going to work and earn money. I’m not a mechanic handy man and won’t be with an rv under warranty. See ya back in 6 weeks with another issue!

RVbuying,

If your reason for posting here is only to accomplish the last sentence in your post, then you are violating the forum rules. Please review the rules before posting further complaints.

Here's one:
Customer Disputes
This forum is not intended to be a mechanism for people to solely vent frustrations about services, products, vendors, or sales. Please settle your differences with the seller, provider, manufacturer, or dealer through other means but not through our community.

[sourdough]

. He’s back! I googled keystone rv warranty and repair or similar and this occupied the first 10 choices on google. If there was an all complaint forum or keystone complaint forum that they read, of course I would post there. But nope, it’s here for potential buyers, who want to read about this brand to see. So they know it’s not a plug and play. It’s possibly a nightmare. Today, I found Sinks are leaking floor is damaged in kitchen island and bathroom. Now I’ve only checked the kitchen island floor 4 times randomly since October purchase when the rig was in my possession so I haven’t looked daily. Just thought a future person should know. Am I gonna rip up the floors and replace along with change the sink? You Guessed right...hell no im going to work and earn money. I’m not a mechanic handy man and won’t be with an rv under warranty. See ya back in 6 weeks with another issue!


Well! Welcome back.

I am fully aware of all the things that can happen to a new RV. You said you bought yours new in 2015. Now, 4-4 1/2 years later you're complaining about leaking windows, wet floors, etc. etc. and damage from that. First thought from what I can tell is to blame "Keystone" period.

Hopefully you are aware that there are a thousand things you need to do to keep the things you mention from happening....those are owner responsibilities. Leaks? How do they get so bad that you don't know about it as soon as they start? How do window leaks, like roofs, go undetected if you actually inspect all your roof seams, window seams, slide seals, AC seals, furnace seals etc. etc. regularly?

Have I had window leaks, faucet leaks, sink leaks and potential roof leaks? Absolutely. Have they destroyed my trailer? Not at all. Why? I look at the seals, under the sinks, roof Dicor etc. ALL the time. You have to. If not the results are not fun. Some take ownership of the issues, some post negative things because they didn't either do their due diligence or were remiss in taking care of their responsibilities. Maybe you're somewhere in the middle but with the lack of info you've posted I have to go with the latter without further clarification.

Edit: John beat me to it.

[LewisB]

RVbuying,

If your reason for posting here is only to accomplish the last sentence in your post, then you are violating the forum rules. Please review the rules before posting further complaints.

Here's one:
Customer Disputes
This forum is not intended to be a mechanism for people to solely vent frustrations about services, products, vendors, or sales. Please settle your differences with the seller, provider, manufacturer, or dealer through other means but not through our community.

Best post this thread to date!
Thanks John!

[flybouy]

All I can say is to consider John's advice carefully. You bought a camper and used it. It's not a keepsake that sat on a shelf. If you drive a vehicle for 4 or more years, never change the oil, never buy new tires, don't wash it or ever raise the hood then you can't complain when the thing steers funny and stops running.
JMHO