I am sure the sales person said it would Carry it

[rhagfo]

I don't have a picture, I may or may get an opportunity to get one but this didn't look right.
The TV is a recent Ram 3500 Laramie SRW.
The 5er/TH is a 2018 or so Fusion 417, when I first saw it hooked up the Ram had a decent squat. I thought to myself, a lot of 5er for the TV.

2018 Keystone Fuzion 417 Specifications
Technical Specifications:
Length 43'
Dry Weight 15,200#
Payload Capacity 3,800#
GVWR (lbs/kgs) 19,000#
Hitch Weight 3,655#

The only toys I see are some plastic kayaks behind the unit, that Dry pin of 3,655# is likely the entire payload of the Ram.
Just wondering how a dealer would let someone off the lot with a setup sitting like that.

[bearcat77]

At least he has 1 ton. I saw a few diesel 3/4 tons this summer pulling big toy haulers. Payload had to be in the red big time.

[flybouy]

"Just wondering how a dealer would let someone off the lot with a setup sitting like that."

3 words...The check cleared.

[Laredo Tugger]

bearcat77, I also have seen many 3/4 tons attached to rigs that are over weight and payload. It is too bad there only two educational avenues to address the problem. One being this forum (and others like it) and the other being the school of hard knocks (which is what they will hear when their tranny goes Tango Union).

As for dealer responsibility? In a short answer flybouy nailed it. Maybe tougher legislation on the state level should be considered, but I am sure like anything else "the industry" would be passionately guarding their present practices. And of course this would offer a challenge to basic "freedoms", but you wonder how long can we (with this issue and others) continue to support the freedom to be stupid?
RMc

[JRTJH]

bearcat77, I also have seen many 3/4 tons attached to rigs that are over weight and payload. It is too bad there only two educational avenues to address the problem. One being this forum (and others like it) and the other being the school of hard knocks (which is what they will hear when their tranny goes Tango Union).

As for dealer responsibility? In a short answer flybouy nailed it. Maybe tougher legislation on the state level should be considered, but I am sure like anything else "the industry" would be passionately guarding their present practices. And of course this would offer a challenge to basic "freedoms", but you wonder how long can we (with this issue and others) continue to support the freedom to be stupid?RMc

The bolded statement is the "problem" as I see it....

Back when I was a kid, I rode my MoPed to town (5 miles) on US51. There were times when I didn't meet an oncoming vehicle for the entire trip. I-55 was under construction and when it opened in 1966, traffic on US51 became even less. We could "be stupid" and not hurt anyone but ourselves....

Now, with the population growing (it's more than doubled since 1960) there just aren't as many "places to be stupid without affecting other people"...

So, "stupid people didn't hurt anyone but themselves in the past" but now "their stupidity is causing damage to others"... As that "damage to others grows, then stupidity will have to come under control of someone other than the stupid individual"......

What I see happening is that as soon as some Senator's son or daughter is killed by a "stupid (idiot) towing a 43' toy hauler with an "extremely undersized truck" then the "legislative process" will get off it's collective butt and start to control "stupidity" in the RV arena. Until "someone important and politically connected" suffers a significant loss, things won't change....

[Laredo Tugger]

Sad but true John.
The policy process on any public safety issue be it local,state or federal has always operated on the "stop sign syndrome". How many people have to die at an intersection before a stop sign is installed. In this case the "intersection" is essentially yellow payload stickers and where does regulation apply?
And yes, us lowly "deplorables" will have to wait for one of the elite to suffer tragedy before the issue (problem) gets proper attention. Like I said,sad but true.
RMc

[flybouy]

30 years ago we had a 30' Sea Ray boat that we kept at the dealer's marina. The boats they sold were getting larger, and larger over the years and I noticed fewer and fewer of them leaving the dock. I mentioned this to the marina owner one day and he told me that it was predominately DINKS (dual income no Kids) couples buying them. After purchase they would scare themselves trying to operate the boat and freak out over the operating cost so they just used them as a "party boat" at the dock.
. Long lead in but now that we've been RVing for nearly 20 years I'm seeing a similar trend. Until a few years ago when the "park models" started becoming popular it seemed to me that there was a constant increase in the number of fivers on seasonal lots . I often wonder if it's the same effect where after purchase they "give up" and let it set.
. I realize that people have lots of reasons for becoming "seasonals" but I also noticed the same "trend" at the various storage facilities that I've used over the years. The smaller units would disappear every weekend while the larger units sat in the same position for months.
. I doubt the industry has ever conducted a "usage survey" as they are only concern is "the check clearing".JMHO

[msubobcats]

I will first say that I don't know the specific years. Have an old high school friend that has a ~2012-2013 Dodge 2500 long bed and he pulls a ~2013 Montana front LR Toy hauler, for their Harleys... I didn't want to get into a discussion about the mismatch. Or at least IMHO this is a big mismatch..... At least it is a Cummins.

[sourdough]

30 years ago we had a 30' Sea Ray boat that we kept at the dealer's marina. The boats they sold were getting larger, and larger over the years and I noticed fewer and fewer of them leaving the dock. I mentioned this to the marina owner one day and he told me that it was predominately DINKS (dual income no Kids) couples buying them. After purchase they would scare themselves trying to operate the boat and freak out over the operating cost so they just used them as a "party boat" at the dock.
. Long lead in but now that we've been RVing for nearly 20 years I'm seeing a similar trend. Until a few years ago when the "park models" started becoming popular it seemed to me that there was a constant increase in the number of fivers on seasonal lots . I often wonder if it's the same effect where after purchase they "give up" and let it set.
. I realize that people have lots of reasons for becoming "seasonals" but I also noticed the same "trend" at the various storage facilities that I've used over the years. The smaller units would disappear every weekend while the larger units sat in the same position for months.
. I doubt the industry has ever conducted a "usage survey" as they are only concern is "the check clearing".JMHO

I think this is part of it. I see more and more, what appear to be "permanent" or "semi permanent" large trailers in parks all the time so I do think many of them just leave the lot and are parked. Then again, it seems to me that the number of fivers on the highway is growing by leaps and bounds as well. I'm driving somewhere at least an hour away 3-4 days a week just piddling around and the number of them on the road is mystifying.

Edit: Just had a thought. We are right here in WTX where the oil boom is going big time. I'm thinking that has an effect on the number of them that I see as well.

[flybouy]

"Edit: Just had a thought. We are right here in WTX where the oil boom is going big time. I'm thinking that has an effect on the number of them that I see as well."
Witnessed the same thing a few years ago traveling thru TN & WV. The cgs were packed with fivers with fracking crews.

[gearhead]

Oilfield folks use RV's a lot. They may be here today, and 500 miles away tomorrow. Many get a per diem and lots of times there are no hotels nearby. Major contractors will build "man camps" with prefab buildings.
I didn't have a RV when I did my little bit of oilfield work. Stayed in hotels and drove to the field. Ended up just keeping a hotel room even if I had to go somewhere else for a couple weeks. If I gave it up I would have a problem getting another. Boss didn't care.
A coworker pulled a triple axle 5th from Conroe to Catarina with a Tundra. Yeah, he wasn't much count in the field either.
If you haven't been around a oil boomtown it's a ton of fun. I used to sit in the lobby of the Embassy Suites in Laredo and soak it in. More $800 cowboy boots and Rolex's than you can shake a stick at. Of course plenty of what always follows money too... interesting folks in the elevator at 4am getting off work when I was leaving for work.
Can't tell I miss it can ya.

[gearhead]

THIS X2...
What I see happening is that as soon as some Senator's son or daughter is killed by a "stupid (idiot) towing a 43' toy hauler with an "extremely undersized truck" then the "legislative process" will get off it's collective butt and start to control "stupidity" in the RV arena. Until "someone important and politically connected" suffers a significant loss, things won't change....
__________________
John

[jsb5717]

The long term issue, IMHO, is that governmental involvement typically goes from practical/necessary to ridiculous. They just can't help but over-legislate things. I've seen those kinds of changes to building codes in the construciton industry over the past 35 years.

Aren't some states implementing certification requirements for RVs/towables of a certain size? That's not necessarily a bad thing...it sets a basic requirement so that "stupid" is minimized. But what's entailed in that requirement? Basic driving skills? or knowledge of weight limits?

The commercial trades have seen a huge increase in regulations for licensing, weight limitations, and limits to drivers driving hours. 40 years ago I drove semis for a small local company and a CDL wasn't even required. Will it get to the point where you can't get a license for your towable without proof of adequate TV? Could you get pulled over and ticketed if those don't match? If you buy a newer TV would you be required to re-certify with DMV?

Every layer of regulation adds cost to the end user. At some point, some level of regulation would be a good thing to protect other people from "stupid". But what does it look like and who decides it?

[flybouy]

Don't want to get political here but.....Like everything else a lawyer touches (most legislators begin life as attorneys) it ends up costing the public more money. They start out with "good intentions", then add onto the bill what some lobbyist want or what their campaign advisors tell them and before you know it "thou shalt not steal" becomes 1,ooo + pages of legislation that the authors no longer recognize nor understand.
The issue as I see it is the age old issue of lack of common sense that's blamed on others. Unfortunately from my observations our legal system and government are "enabling" and "promoting" this trend.
JMHO

[sourdough]

It would be easy to get off into politics headed along these lines, and I almost did :eek: since it is one of my pet peeves, but deleted it.:angel:

There is a fine line between regulating and over regulating. The former is a necessity, the latter isn't and usually ends up infringing on people's freedoms. We have always given freedom the upper hand in that balancing act (or try to). In the end, stupid should lose out and ultimately pay the price for it. Blown tires, RV damage, sitting on the side of the road, hospital trips; they can be a price for being stupid. Unfortunately, pulling an RV can ultimately affect lots of folks if things go south from family members to innocent travelers. So where do you draw the line? I'm thinking setting weight limits for the TV and RV as they have and then enforce them with state troopers just like they do with commercial vehicles. I also think when you get to 26k there SHOULD be some sort of certification that the driver has to pass. There are far, far too many folks pulling big rigs that 1) don't have a clue what they're doing, 2) violate so many laws and rules of common sense due to complete ignorance and 3) bigger rigs take more awareness (several facets) and can cause substantial collateral damage. I've seen all the humongous triple axle fivers being pulled by a SRW 3/4 ton at 80mph while everyone in the cab is laughing, carrying on and having a beer that I want to. Then again, I've seen a beautiful, very large, very expensive motorhome blow by me at what had to be 85 pulling a lifted Jeep Rubicon on a fancy trailer (must have had one of those 1900 lb. ft. torque Cummins) only to come back on him on the side of the road with 2 tires shredded on the towed trailer. Stupid cost him but I'm not sure it meant anything. So, it's not only 5th wheels.

[travelin texans]

Some of the vehicle manufacturers are also at fault tauting theirs can "tow a million pound freight train". With advertising like that what are folks looking to buy a RV for 1st time to think? Then listening to the salesman saying "no problem, you'll never know it's back there!".
My neighbors, both him & her, retired from Winnebago & worked at a dealership after retirement & he said that if ANYONE pulled in with a Toyota truck to buy ANY RV the dealer refused stating the transmissions wouldn't handle it, this after they'd been sued by a previous buyer. They wouldn't install hitches in them either, even if they bought a RV somewhere else.

[Gord]

Not sure if this helps anyone, residents of BC require a heavy trailer endorsement to tow a TT or 5er that weighs over 4600kgs. I'm going to try to attach the ICBC regulations
https://issuu.com/insurancecorporationofbc/docs/towingarecreationaltrailer/8

[JJaxon]

My 2019 Ram 3500 SRW Laramie longbed Cummins has a payload of 4455. This truck comes in a variety of configurations and the payload changes with options. He should be good on pin weight as long as he isnt over filling the truck with more stuff.

[sonofcy]

Not sure if this helps anyone, residents of BC require a heavy trailer endorsement to tow a TT or 5er that weighs over 4600kgs. I'm going to try to attach the ICBC regulations
https://issuu.com/insurancecorporationofbc/docs/towingarecreationaltrailer/8
AND the ICBC folks don't ask you if you have the endorsement, but if you have an accident with the trailer because you are NOT licensed then you are NOT insured. The license people also do NOT ask you if you have the endorsement. They just want the license fee.

[Snoking]

I don't have a picture, I may or may get an opportunity to get one but this didn't look right.
The TV is a recent Ram 3500 Laramie SRW.
The 5er/TH is a 2018 or so Fusion 417, when I first saw it hooked up the Ram had a decent squat. I thought to myself, a lot of 5er for the TV.

2018 Keystone Fuzion 417 Specifications
Technical Specifications:
Length 43'
Dry Weight 15,200#
Payload Capacity 3,800#
GVWR (lbs/kgs) 19,000#
Hitch Weight 3,655#

The only toys I see are some plastic kayaks behind the unit, that Dry pin of 3,655# is likely the entire payload of the Ram.
Just wondering how a dealer would let someone off the lot with a setup sitting like that.

For a 2013 to 2018 he is over the manufactures RGAWR, GVWR, Max Trailer rating and GCWR.

For a 2019 he is over the manufactures RGAWR and GVWR. The 2019 with 3.73 gears is rate for max trailer rating of 24490/25150 4x4 SB CC Aisin/4x4 LB CC Aisin and GCWR of 32580/33610.

Here is the rub on all the newer SRW 3500's. RGAWR is 7,000 just like mine. It would be very difficult to get to these newer 2019 trailer and GCWR and stay with in the RGAWR and GVWR.

I would also note that for 2019 RAM lowered the RGAWR rating on 2500's from 6500 to 6000, truly making them grocery getters.

I speak from experience towing a 16K GVWR'd Bighorn 3575el that came with a fairly light 2435 dry pin weight. Fully loaded for full time I was 40 lbs over GVWR at 11,740, a little under the 7K RGAWR and 24,500 combined. I just do not see how one can tow to these newer higher numbers with a 3500 SRW. Grandpa it is magic, my granddaughter would say when they lifted out 9K SeaRay off the trailer and into the water with a travel lift.

Chris

[Snoking]

My 2019 Ram 3500 SRW Laramie longbed Cummins has a payload of 4455. This truck comes in a variety of configurations and the payload changes with options. He should be good on pin weight as long as he isnt over filling the truck with more stuff.

That is a very miss leading number. Most of the weight we add towing a 5th wheel goes on the rear axle. 7000-4455=2545 and the rear axle for these trucks in over 3000 empty. Add a 5th wheel hitch and other stuff in the bed and you well above 3,000. My rear axle was 3760 ready to tow.

One needs to look at all the numbers. ANY 5th wheel pushing towards 3,000 dry pin weight is going to put the rear axle over the 7K GAWR when load and ready to hit the road. NOT a number one wants to exceed.

Chris

[rhagfo]

My 2019 Ram 3500 SRW Laramie longbed Cummins has a payload of 4455. This truck comes in a variety of configurations and the payload changes with options. He should be good on pin weight as long as he isn't over filling the truck with more stuff.

Well I was unable to get a picture on departure, as they had an issue getting out of the park, and parked in overflow, with their LG down to leve, but this Ram had a good squat.
Look at the numbers.

2018 Keystone Fuzion 417 Specifications
Technical Specifications:
Length 43'
Dry Weight 15,200#
Payload Capacity 3,800#
GVWR (lbs/kgs) 19,000#
Hitch Weight 3,655#

JJaxon, is that from the brochure or from your trucks payload sticker?

This is DRY no propane or batteries, in addition the only toys were three plastic kayaks, so most living weight added to pin.
Now days SRW 350's and 3500's are starting to run GVWR near 95% of GAWR.

That is a very miss leading number. Most of the weight we add towing a 5th wheel goes on the rear axle. 7000-4455=2545 and the rear axle for these trucks in over 3000 empty. Add a 5th wheel hitch and other stuff in the bed and you well above 3,000. My rear axle was 3760 ready to tow.

One needs to look at all the numbers. ANY 5th wheel pushing towards 3,000 dry pin weight is going to put the rear axle over the 7K GAWR when load and ready to hit the road. NOT a number one wants to exceed.

Chris

I agree with Chris on this, one can be within payload and be exceeding axle and tire ratings. based on my observation this guy was over both.

ON EDIT: Just an FYI my 2016 Ram 3500 DRW with a GVWR of 14,000# is at 88% of GAWR's 6,000# front and 9,750# rear.

[JJaxon]

It is from my decal inside the drivers door.

[Snoking]

It is from my decal inside the drivers door.

OK, many want to tow a fifth wheel trailer. So we have:

RGAWR 7,000 - 200 lbs for 5th wheel hitch, and lets stay 200 lbs of other things in the bed(note, I had a lot more than 200).

So now with have 6600 left and we subtract the 3005 for the dry weight and we are down to 3595 of pin weight putting the truck near the max rear axle rating.

A cab over camper with a short rear overhang and a long front overhand might be able to use most of the posted carry capacity, however a 5th wheel with not, unless you haul your Harley on the front bumper.

Chris

[tech740]

My 2019 Ram 3500 SRW Laramie longbed Cummins has a payload of 4455. This truck comes in a variety of configurations and the payload changes with options. He should be good on pin weight as long as he isnt over filling the truck with more stuff.

That would be nice. My 19 3500 SRW Bighorn short bed is only 3810. What is your GVW on that truck?

[wiredgeorge]

When looking for a 5th wheel, seems to me that most are more than what even a SRW 1 ton could safely handle and this begs the question, WHY don't RV manufacturers make more product that every day drivers can haul safely? It seems to me they don't care if unassuming folk drive off the lot with a lot more trailer than they should. Hence terms like "half ton towable".

If one piece law where the govt should stick its nose into things... have the dealer certify the purchaser has a truck that can safely tow a fully loaded (both truck and trailer) combo before allowing them to ink the paper. Not sure this crazy suggestion violates any constitutional amendment or such but it would sure help to clean up messes on the highway and hospitals and such.

[Laredo Tugger]

I agree with you George, 100%.
Much similar to the value rating guides available (Kelly Bluebook and the like) there should be a towing combination guide, listing approved by law TV and TT combinations.
While the objective would be to essentially " clean up messes on the highway and hospitals and such", legislation like this would without a doubt also "clean up" industry profits. This is where this ideology (law) grabs a gear and starts it's uphill climb. The RV industry lobbyist,investors,expert witnesses, and owners all would stand firm to deny any sensible protocol that hinders sales. We know and have seen this. This is obviously displayed among these threads and others like them everyday.
Someone is always "driving off the lot" and then questioning their decision and coming to these pages for "justification" from knowledgeable owners.
I get it, I did the same thing. I drove off with not enough truck, got on these threads to be vindicated and was rightfully educated. I have since "upped my game" and my payload. I find it great that there are folks on here that do care enough to offer insight and their wisdom to ensure safe towing for every member who will listen.
RMc

[JRTJH]

Just an observation (based on living in "good ole boy" country for years).....

Government enforcement of any law is "haphazard at best"... how many drivers do you see "driving and texting", exceeding the speed limit, not wearing a seat belt, running a stop sign, kids in the front seat, no registration, stolen license plate (from the wife's car to get to work), just to name a few....

Government regulations isn't the answer. Making people accountable for their actions is.... (IMHO)...

Now, assume Michigan (I'll pick on my own residence) enacts a law that dealerships MUST confirm the buyer has a vehicle capable to tow the trailer being purchased.... That buyer comes in with a rental 1 ton truck from Home Depot ($19.95 for 4 hours) or with his BIL's dually. He states, "I'm never going to tow unless I use this borrowed/rented truck"... How do you deny him the right to purchase the trailer????

Before you answer, think about the last 30 days on this forum and the number of threads where the buyer "bought a large travel trailer/fifth wheel "specifically to "park it on their property while they build a house, use it for 2 years as a permanent residence or put it in a long term campground with no plans to move it after it's set in place"......

As Laredo Tugger said, you get the lobby groups, industry insiders, etc working against it, you also get "legitimate purchasers" who don't own such a vehicle and have no plans to ever need one..... Such laws are extremely difficult to enact because of all the "carve-outs" that are legitimate.... Besides (without getting too political) there's a whole world of much more important government business that has "world wide implicaitons" that isn't being worked on. Adding this to the pile, it might get looked at in 15 or 20 years based on priority.....

[Laredo Tugger]

Definitely a lot of dynamics in play on this topic.
Very fine points John.
RMc

[JJaxon]

That would be nice. My 19 3500 SRW Bighorn short bed is only 3810. What is your GVW on that truck?

I think I remember it being 11,300. ??? But I'm not sure without looking at the window sticker in the file.

[flybouy]

Just an observation (based on living in "good ole boy" country for years).....

Government enforcement of any law is "haphazard at best"... how many drivers do you see "driving and texting", exceeding the speed limit, not wearing a seat belt, running a stop sign, kids in the front seat, no registration, stolen license plate (from the wife's car to get to work), just to name a few....

Government regulations isn't the answer. Making people accountable for their actions is.... (IMHO)...

Now, assume Michigan (I'll pick on my own residence) enacts a law that dealerships MUST confirm the buyer has a vehicle capable to tow the trailer being purchased.... That buyer comes in with a rental 1 ton truck from Home Depot ($19.95 for 4 hours) or with his BIL's dually. He states, "I'm never going to tow unless I use this borrowed/rented truck"... How do you deny him the right to purchase the trailer????

Before you answer, think about the last 30 days on this forum and the number of threads where the buyer "bought a large travel trailer/fifth wheel "specifically to "park it on their property while they build a house, use it for 2 years as a permanent residence or put it in a long term campground with no plans to move it after it's set in place"......

As Laredo Tugger said, you get the lobby groups, industry insiders, etc working against it, you also get "legitimate purchasers" who don't own such a vehicle and have no plans to ever need one..... Such laws are extremely difficult to enact because of all the "carve-outs" that are legitimate.... Besides (without getting too political) there's a whole world of much more important government business that has "world wide implicaitons" that isn't being worked on. Adding this to the pile, it might get looked at in 15 or 20 years based on priority.....

Completely agree. First the "Appropriate tow vehicle statute" for trailers. Then what? Will you have a law stating that auto dealers are to REQUIRE purchasers of 7 passenger SUV's/minivans have their family weighed to ensure that they are not exceeding the carrying capacity?

While I agree it's a far from ideal system I don't see legislation solving it. We have laws against driving drunk,murder,rape, stealing, selling drugs, and yes overloading trucks.

You can't legislate morality or common sense. Education, IMHO is the only cure for societal ills.

[notanlines]

Uh huh, I believe we need a whole raft of new laws in this country. We sure as hell don't have enough right now. We need to hire more LEO's to insure our youth wear helmets riding in the neighborhood, maybe a couple to insure we don't put the wrong refuse in the wrong can, and of course a few more to insure people have their payment ready when ordering in the fast food line. Give me a stinking break!

[Snoking]

I think I remember it being 11,300. ??? But I'm not sure without looking at the window sticker in the file.

For 2019 the 3500 CC 4x4 SB is 11,800 and LB 12,300. Chris

[tech740]

I think I remember it being 11,300. ??? But I'm not sure without looking at the window sticker in the file.

mine is only 11,800 at 3,810lbs

[JJaxon]

12,300 it is!! Thanks.

[tech740]

12,300 it is!! Thanks.

Nice thanks

[sourdough]

Uh huh, I believe we need a whole raft of new laws in this country. We sure as hell don't have enough right now. We need to hire more LEO's to insure our youth wear helmets riding in the neighborhood, maybe a couple to insure we don't put the wrong refuse in the wrong can, and of course a few more to insure people have their payment ready when ordering in the fast food line. Give me a stinking break!


And there you go!! Raining on my parade!! Here I was thinking of all these new laws I could implement to make things the way "I" want it and poof, reality hits! Guess I've been watching so much off the wall political "junk rhetoric" I thought I could just snap my fingers and "WOW"! Oh well, back to reality...