not enough hot water

[Randallf]

good day, i want to see if ay of you rv'es converted you hot water tank to a continuous hot water system? If so what did you purchase and is it worth the price?
Any information i get would be greatly apprechated , thanks
Randallf
2017 sprinter 5th wheel
vancouver washington
:)

[chuckster57]

There are a few different brands of “on demand” water heaters. Girard, Truma and I think suburban make them. Having worked on RVs for several years now, I would stay away from the Girard. Trumas seem to be trouble free but you pay for the reliability.

For what it’s worth, the cost of converting would have me just taking “navy” showers or using the CG facilities. Are you using both LP AND electric to heat the water?

[sourdough]

There are a few different brands of “on demand” water heaters. Girard, Truma and I think suburban make them. Having worked on RVs for several years now, I would stay away from the Girard. Trumas seem to be trouble free but you pay for the reliability.

For what it’s worth, the cost of converting would have me just taking “navy” showers or using the CG facilities. Are you using both LP AND electric to heat the water?


^^^What he said. Unless you have a 1/2 dozen folks trying to take showers one after the other I wouldn't think about spending the money for an on demand system.

[Randallf]

Thank you for all the answers i received.
yes i do use LP and electic for hot water. My wife wanted me to check into this ,now i can say: i did
Randallf

[travelin texans]

Thank you for all the answers i received.
yes i do use LP and electic for hot water. My wife wanted me to check into this ,now i can say: i did
Randallf

Using elec & LP at the same time was the question I believe, this will speed the recovery time.

[JRTJH]

One of the "hot water wasters" is the shower head. Many OEM shower heads offer poor performance and have a flow rate of 2.5-5 GPM. You can purchase a "remarkable shower head" called the "Oxygenics 2.0" that has a "satisfying spray pattern" and a flow rate of 2 GPM. Using the included OFF/ON valve, a leisurely shower is possible with a 6 gallon Suburban water heater if using gas and electric modes at the same time.

You can buy an Oxygenics shower head for about $30 in white, $38 in chrome and $50 in brushed nickel. https://www.amazon.com/ETL-26181-Plastic-Oxygenics-Shower/dp/B00F5MU5YY/ref=sr_1_9?crid=2VP2RY6AYA71D&keywords=oxygenic+shower+head+for+rv&qid=1571803553&sprefix=oxygenic+%2Caps%2C163&sr=8-9

Remember, there's no way an RV water system will give you the amount of hot water or the pressure of a home shower, so if your DW is expecting that in your trailer, she'll never be happy. You can't get 30 gallons of hot water at 60 PSI from a 6 gallon water heater in an RV with a 40 PSI regulator to protect the plumbing system from damage......

[skids]

(snip)Having worked on RVs for several years now,

Chuckster57, you just Nailed credibility 100% in my book!

[Mikendebbie]

I think my unit has a suburban and it has been incredible. Just incredible.

[rhagfo]

Randallf, your wife must want to take 20 minute showers with the water running all the time. My wife will run the water a lot, and I can shower as soon as she is out of the bathroom, (dressing time maybe 15 minutes). I always have plenty of hot water, gas will heat faster then electric, using both will recover quickly. This has been the case with both a 6 gal. and 10, gal heater.

[German Shepherd Guy]

Hello Randallf:
On recommendations from this list one of our first upgrades was to the Oxigenics shower head that John gave the link to. I would give a 4 out of 5 star rating, and we are very pleased. You might want to try that first. I too looked into the on demand systems but that initial out put had a loooooong payback period. Too long for us.
Good luck.

[flybouy]

The Oxygenetics shower head gets my vote. We have a 6 gal suburban wh and when showering use gas & electric together. Have never run out of he during a shower and I am on the tall and wide end of the stature spectrum.

[Eric363]

Randellf, I installed a truma aquago comfort model. It has been awesome! With a family of 4 you can't have enough hot water. The truma units are supposed to be dealer installed only. I found one on Ebay and installed it myself. The bad part is they are pretty expensive; the very few dealers around me wanted $2000 plus installed. I don't think I could ever go back. As far as the girard and suburbans, reviews were mixed, but you mostly hear from the bad.

[k94x4]

We put in a Truma and love it! Well worth the money for us.

[larryflew]

There are many sizes of water heaters in RV's. Ours came with a 12 gallon and my wife does do the 20 minute showers and the recovery was good enough for me to shower 20 minutes later. When it crapped out I replaced it with a 10 gallon since they are identical size and recovery but $110 less. If it doesn't work she'll just have to shorten those showers. Just installed so we won't be trying it out until the end of November.

As mentioned she may not like the water volume and/or pressure in which case there is no cure. IF it really is the amount of hot water you need to decide the value of your DW vs a couple grand $$ :jester:

[notanlines]

The question I have is, why don't all the new RVs have demand water heaters?
I hope that comment was tongue in cheek.

[notanlines]

We will have to agree to disagree. I couldn't imagine adding $1000 to $2500 to each and every RV sold simply to add a device that fills the holding tank considerably faster and drains the propane tanks faster so that (insert your own adjective) people can shower endlessly.
I do understand having it as an alternative. We wouldn't be without our dishwasher, but I certainly wouldn't recommend it as standard equipment.

[JRTJH]

No, a demand water heater, also known a "tankless" water heater would be more appropriate in an RV the the little 6 and 10 gallon ones that usually are installed.
They take up less space and provide endless hot water.

More appropriate? Based on whose interpretation? For many, the "tankless systems" available today are either unreliable (prone to many failures) or significantly more expensive (4 times more than a Dometic/Atwood tank heater). That makes them "cost prohibitive" for the RV market where every dollar increase in MSRP means fewer sales at the dealer's lot... It's a "numbers game" not a "improve regardless of cost" consideration.

On the surface, it may seem like a good idea, but in application, it hasn't proven to live up to the expectations. The cheap ones leave owners "out in the cold" and the expensive ones cost far too much to absorb the added $1500 over the cost of a 6 gallon Dometic/Atwood water heater into the manufacturing process.

While there were some Keystone models that did have a tankless water heater, (the Montana 3921FB) that was "required to fill the large soaking tub". That model apparently wasn't popular enough to continue as it was discontinued (along with the tankless water heater) in 2019.

If you consider the Keystone "business model" their plan only includes very minimal optional equipment (and that's only on some models). Every option that's offered changes the manufacturing process and introduces a chance for omissions or errors, so the Keystone business model just doesn't offer optional equipment. That keeps the cost down and reduces the chance to "build a trailer with the wrong equipment".... So I wouldn't look for Keystone to offer a tankless water heater even as an optional item on any of their "less expensive than the top line brands"....

[flybouy]

The question I have is, why don't all the new RVs have demand water heaters?
Also, why aren't all the new A/C units mini split systems? They would not only be more practical, but less expensive to install.

Let me address these separately.

Tankless hot water heater - would be several $k upcharge, use a LOT more propane and water. If you are willing to spend the extra money for it then by all means have one installed.

Split system? Requires a separate air handler and compressor that are connected via refrigeration lines. The install time would be MUCH longer, require a certified HVAC technician and more wires and power. A split system would only work on ac current so it would have to have shore power or a generator to operate. Totally impractical for those reasons much less having long runs of refrigerant lines bagning around taking up space and leaking, and the additional weight and space requirements.

[flybouy]

Ok, I can buy that. My trailer cost too much already.

But about the split A/C system though, I've seen modified rigs that use the mini-split systems on the market. Some are 120 VAC models, so they can easily be incorporated into an RV. It gets the unit off the roof and into the coach where it belongs. Also, some of the mini-split systems have multiple evaporators that would be really nice in a larger RV.
It makes a really clean installation, and I'm wondering how long it will take for the RV manufacturers to pick up on it.

Again it's just too cost prohibitive. When your talking about a million dollar coach the buyer is willing to lay out a few grand. The "bus frame" won't be affected by the added weight like a trailer. "off the roof and inside where it belongs?" The compressor on a slip system still must be exposed to the outside and why would you want that taking up precious interior space.

Yes you can have all that if you "wish" and are willing to "pony up" the Hundreds of thousands of dollars for a "custom built RV'. Otherwise it's foolish to state that a mfg "should" do this when the VAST majority of purchasers don't want it and can't afford it.

It's easy to stated the way things "should" or "could" be when you don't understand what it takes to "get there", or the ramifications of "getting there".

[travelin texans]

If it cost 15 cents more, takes an extra 5 minutes to install or requires skilled labor to install you won't find it "coming soon" on any rv, cheap, easy & fast is how they roll off the line.

[wiredgeorge]

Let me address these separately.

Tankless hot water heater - would be several $k upcharge, use a LOT more propane and water. If you are willing to spend the extra money for it then by all means have one installed.

Split system? Requires a separate air handler and compressor that are connected via refrigeration lines. The install time would be MUCH longer, require a certified HVAC technician and more wires and power. A split system would only work on ac current so it would have to have shore power or a generator to operate. Totally impractical for those reasons much less having long runs of refrigerant lines bagning around taking up space and leaking, and the additional weight and space requirements.

Point of disagreement. First, the on-demand water heater need not cost THOUSANDS of dollars. If you check Amazon, there are lots of them including the Girard that are less than $500; about in the range of a new Suburban or Dometic any dual heating RV hot water heater. I think the less expensive ones are not used as most all are propane only AND most have very very poor quality control.

Second point: It takes no brains to install a mini-split. I put the one in my office in and it was kind of easy. Was in kit form with lines and what not already in the kit. Had to pull a dedicated power line from my box. Problem with a mini-split on a camper is: WHERE TO PUT THE INSIDE AND OUTSIDE assemblies? I don't have much wall space inside but the compressor part would have to be fabbed onto the rear (reinforced) bumper. Bumper pulls sometimes put them up front. It would only make sense if it were a dual zone unit so this would complicate things if not done at the factory so plumbing and wiring could be run through walls. I have seen mini-splits on campers and it just isn't that big a deal and I do agree they are far more effective than my ol' Brisk II on the roof.

[flybouy]

O.K. My bad, for some reason it's apparently quicker to install, more economical to purchase and Keystone elects not to do it. This is proof positive that Keystone is just a bunch of sadist out to make us all miserable.

[JRTJH]

Point of disagreement. First, the on-demand water heater need not cost THOUSANDS of dollars. If you check Amazon, there are lots of them including the Girard that are less than $500; about in the range of a new Suburban or Dometic any dual heating RV hot water heater. I think the less expensive ones are not used as most all are propane only AND most have very very poor quality control.

Second point: It takes no brains to install a mini-split. I put the one in my office in and it was kind of easy. Was in kit form with lines and what not already in the kit. Had to pull a dedicated power line from my box. Problem with a mini-split on a camper is: WHERE TO PUT THE INSIDE AND OUTSIDE assemblies? I don't have much wall space inside but the compressor part would have to be fabbed onto the rear (reinforced) bumper. Bumper pulls sometimes put them up front. It would only make sense if it were a dual zone unit so this would complicate things if not done at the factory so plumbing and wiring could be run through walls. I have seen mini-splits on campers and it just isn't that big a deal and I do agree they are far more effective than my ol' Brisk II on the roof.

There is "virtually no reliability" in Gerard instant water heaters. If you think the failure rate on Suburban or Atwood water heaters is "frustrating to a dry camper whose weekend was just ruined and "KEYSTONE SUCKS because of that problem".... You ain't seen nothing yet, until you start putting Gerard instant heaters in Keystone trailers and the "failure rate of water heaters triples or quadruples" My guess: Keystone would toss the rest of the instant water heaters out the window and you'd never see another one in a Keystone product. They've got enough problems fixing what breaks now without introducing more "crappy, unreliable appliances" to the mix.....

If you put a mini-split system on a travel trailer, "bury" the high pressure line inside the ceiling, run a couple of "zone evaporator units" and hang them on the wall in the bedroom and the main cabin, move to the next station on the assembly line and someone "punches a staple through the HP line".... OK, now IF YOU FIND THE STAPLE before it leaves the plant, do you ignore it, fix it, stop the line or push it out the end unfinished? Maybe just "keep on building it and let the dealership tear the whole roof off to replace a $40 HP line ???? With the "currently used technology, the "worst case scenario" is to pull the rooftop unit, throw it over the side and slap another one in the hole and keep moving the line....

I can't imagine Keystone (or any other "fast and cheap RV manufacturer) changing the appliances that have been working for years with something that's not as reliable, costs more to retool and maintain and isn't "proven in the RV market"...

Will it work in an RV? Yup, maybe even "quite well". Will you see it in the next few years? Don't bet the hair on your chinney chin chin.

[sourdough]

There is "virtually no reliability" in Gerard instant water heaters. If you think the failure rate on Suburban or Atwood water heaters is "frustrating to a dry camper whose weekend was just ruined and "KEYSTONE SUCKS because of that problem".... You ain't seen nothing yet, until you start putting Gerard instant heaters in Keystone trailers and the "failure rate of water heaters triples or quadruples" My guess: Keystone would toss the rest of the instant water heaters out the window and you'd never see another one in a Keystone product. They've got enough problems fixing what breaks now without introducing more "crappy, unreliable appliances" to the mix.....

If you put a mini-split system on a travel trailer, "bury" the high pressure line inside the ceiling, run a couple of "zone evaporator units" and hang them on the wall in the bedroom and the main cabin, move to the next station on the assembly line and someone "punches a staple through the HP line".... OK, now IF YOU FIND THE STAPLE before it leaves the plant, do you ignore it, fix it, stop the line or push it out the end unfinished? Maybe just "keep on building it and let the dealership tear the whole roof off to replace a $40 HP line ???? With the "currently used technology, the "worst case scenario" is to pull the rooftop unit, throw it over the side and slap another one in the hole and keep moving the line....

I can't imagine Keystone (or any other "fast and cheap RV manufacturer) changing the appliances that have been working for years with something that's not as reliable, costs more to retool and maintain and isn't "proven in the RV market"...

Will it work in an RV? Yup, maybe even "quite well". Will you see it in the next few years? Don't bet the hair on your chinney chin chin.


John is on point. The previous "wishes and observations" about unrealistic manufacturer mods that need to be made on new units are just that. Those wishes and thoughts are made, apparently, without an understanding of what drives RV sales. The majority are sold to folks that want to be able to go "out there", feel the camping experience, get back to nature etc. without spending much money. I don't know of many that want to spend a fortune on "endless" hot water because they can't control a shower head or some expensive AC mod that only has negative aspects when it comes to a normal RV buyer (which refuses to spend any money for those kinds of things). Nope, I don't want either and I'm pretty spoiled and like things "my way", but, I can also make do with what makes sense. JMO

[JRTJH]

You know what John?
If I had heard any of your responses in this forum before we bought our trailer, we probably would have bought new luggage instead.
You have a real dark way of responding to comments.
We've had a good experience so far.
Please don't ruin it for us.

Yup, luggage and a Hilton Honors Card are an alternative for some people who either expect the "impossible" from an RV or who buy one expecting it to be what it's not....

As for "a dark way of responding to comments". IMHO, there are two ways to respond to comments or questions. One is to "blow smoke and make people think they're on a "reality ride" that's not going to have any problems getting to their destination, the other is to be "openly frank" and provide "what I see as the "reality of the RV industry". I prefer to be honest, provide my "unfiltered opinion and advice based on how I go about repairing an RV or correcting an RV issue. I try to explain the "why" about things as well as the "how". Some people only want the "fix mine and I'll be happy" while other people want to try to understand more about what makes their RV work and how it manages to survive a hurricane, a tornado and an earthquake during every tow from home to that ideal camping site 200 miles away (and still function in spite of all the "horror show" it just got dragged through).

What "ruins the experience" for most RV'ers is an unrealistic expectation that they can call the dealer and drop off their trailer on Tuesday, pick it up Thursday and load it on Friday because they have a problem and need it back for camping plans for the weekend. Or, someone makes a comment, "We need a class action suit to make that evil Keystone build better trailers.".... The easy way to answer either is either to say, "Yeah, call the dealer" or "Hey, that's a great idea" and move on. Neither, IMHO, is a realistic answer and if it's "dark" to say, "Hey buddy, you're better off fixing the trailer yourself on Wednesday after work because your dealer won't have it fixed before your weekend trip." Well, again, IMHO, being "dark and honest" is better than "blowing smoke to make someone happy, until Friday morning when their trailer is sitting, untouched and they're pissed and can't get a refund on their campsite reservations".....

Anyway, I do hope you find a happy medium and some equilibrium in your future RV experiences. I'll try harder not to be "dark" when responding to you, I'd ask that you also try to be a bit more accepting of reality about the RV industry. To Keystone (and probably your dealer) you're in a sea of battleships, rowing around in a dinghy. Don't make too many waves..... :whistling:

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by blubuckaroo
You know what John?
If I had heard any of your responses in this forum before we bought our trailer, we probably would have bought new luggage instead.
You have a real dark way of responding to comments.
We've had a good experience so far.
Please don't ruin it for us.

buckaroo;

I've not looked back at all your posts but this one clearly illustrates your ignorance of the comments made by John, his experience and help he has provided to who knows how many folks. Dark way of responding to comments? Heavens! Guess you haven't read mine. If trying to help folks, pointing out errors in thoughts/decisions as one can see (in their opinion) is "dark" don't know what to do to help you. If that in fact can "ruin" your RV experience maybe want to look for those "self supporting" comments....?

[ctbruce]

Just a note from one of the mods to add perspective. We read EVERY post on here. Every one of them. Sometimes, after the fifteenth time (think about your kids asking why all the time, you'll get the idea) of reading how do I winterize, are Trailer King tires a good choice, I can't get my cable to work or my Prius will tow anything, you do go a little dark and jaded. Then you add being vigilant on political things (Epstein didn't kill himself), breaking up fights and refereeing sniper attacks between forum members and ... you get the picture.

Our job is to be honest, keep things moving smoothly, and make this an informative and fun place to hang out. All at no charge to any and all who stop by to hang out.

Ok kids, time to go outside and play. Daddy needs some quiet time in his safe place.

[Wingerdinger]

We had an on-demand water heater in our last camper, and although it provided all the hot water you wanted, we found it to be a large waste of water. It took a while to get the temperature right for a shower, and if you stopped the water with the showerhead shut off, the next time you turned it on it was too hot to use for a few seconds. It was noisy, used a lot of propane, and was hard to get the temp. 'just right'.
We liked it where you had full hook-ups, so you could waste water, but we do a lot of dry camping, and it just used too much water.