30amp shore power causes trailer to shock you

[bjstager]

We plugged into 50amp. Within 5 minutes the shore power breaker tripped. After that 50amp would always trip. We plugged into 30amp and found after that the trailer metal shocked you? Any ideas? We can not find the issue. Everything was running fine inside, but all the metal outside was “hot”.

Also we then plugged into our generator and the charge moved to the generator instead of trailer metal.

[chuckster57]

Google “hot skin” , I believe it’s a bad ground.

[bjstager]

We did and can not find where a ground could be that’s bad. We have tested things checked shore power. Still confused why on generator it doesn’t have the same affect. This is a brand new trailer as well.

Actually. Generator took the charge. The metal on generator was taking the charge and was reading 120

[OregonDuck]

My guess would be the issue is at the pedestal, hence you have no issue with the gen. I'd keep your rig disconnected from it, get the campground staff over to look at it or move you to a new spot.

[JRTJH]

Your trailer "ground" (bare wire) and "neutral" (white wire) are probably tied together and "somewhere in the trailer wiring" a plug or an appliance is wired backwards. In other words, the black wire "somewhere" is tied to "the white wire side". That makes the neutral side "hot" and since ground and neutral are "bonded" then the skin of the trailer (metal components) have the 120VAC potential on them. What could happen, if someone might unfortunately be standing on damp ground (like after a rain or morning dew) and touch the trailer, they may be electrocuted.

Now the above being said, you states that it happens when plugged into both the 50 amp and the 30 amp plugs at a campground. It is possible that the particular campground pedestal is wired incorrectly (neutral and ground reversed on the campground plug) which could cause the condition. That's one of many conditions that a quality EMS will not only identify, but will protect your trailer from becoming a 'live wire".

This issue is (or can become) a death trap if the right (wrong) conditions exist.

You need to have the trailer inspected and the wiring repaired before someone gets hurt.

[bjstager]

We have moved to 3 sites now and same issue on all

[bjstager]

We traveled for 5 days and no issues. Got to this site and it happened. The 50amp won’t work at all. All breakers were off in trailer as a test.

[JRTJH]

If you're using a 50/30 amp power cable adapter, that may be the problem, or you could have a short in the actual power cable (either end or the actual cable) or a problem with the inlet power plug/receiver on your travel trailer.

If you have another power cable or can borrow one from the campground you might be able to rule out the cable issues and isolate the problem to the trailer wiring/inlet receptacle....

If things work correctly with a new power cable, you know yours is bad and if things do not work with a new power cable, you know the problem is with the trailer.

[OregonDuck]

If you've been moved to 3 diff sites, and have the same issue, then I'd agree with JRTJH; somewhere your trailer has positive connected to ground. I'd breakout the flashlights, keep power off, and get it looked at as soon as you can. Unless the whole camp is wired incorrectly.... Do you have an EMS as JRTJH mentioned?

[K_N_L]

If you have another power cable or can borrow one from the campground you might be able to rule out the cable issues and isolate the problem to the trailer wiring/inlet receptacle....

If things work correctly with a new power cable, you know yours is bad and if things do not work with a new power cable, you know the problem is with the trailer.
Agreed!

Seems that your issue is upstream of the transfer switch as you note no issues on generator. 50 Amp/ 4 wire trips immediately and 30amp/3 wire is putting 120 to the ground / camper. With a voltmeter you can test out the power cord for cross connectivity between leads. That would seem to be more likely and easier to check.



Be careful - sparky dont play well with others!

[FlyingAroundRV]

Are you camped anywhere near high voltage powerlines? The induced voltage from them can cause a hot (voltage) skin on metal clad trailers. I'm assuming your trailer is metal clad as a filon skin wouldn't conduct electricity that you'd notice.

[bjstager]

The generator was actually taking the ground fault/charge. We found bare metal on generator and tested so on generator it moved the charge to the generator frame instead of the trailer frame. Calling keystone in the morning as the trailer is brand new.

[bjstager]

No. And there are several campers here and no one else has this issue.

[notanlines]

BJ, to coin an old (1960's) phrase, Danger, Will Robinson. I would ask that when you do locate the problem, kindly return to the forum and fill us in. In the meantime, I'd avoid that beast like cooked liver!

[flybouy]

The generator was actually taking the ground fault/charge. We found bare metal on generator and tested so on generator it moved the charge to the generator frame instead of the trailer frame. Calling keystone in the morning as the trailer is brand new.

The "charge" did not move to the generator. The generator does not have an earth ground like the campground service should. You have a serious issue where the line is going to the neutral or ground. If someone touches the camper, or the generator while it's plugged in and running the camper they could be killed. This is not over reacting, drama, or anything other than simple truth. The electricity is using the ground and there fore the camper's frame or when powered by the generator the genset chassis to return the flow of electrons. If say you are the path of least resistance then that flow of electricity will traverse through you, or your child, or dog, etc. It takes only a fraction of an amp (the measurement of the flow of electrons) to stop a human heart. The 50 amps, 30 amps, or whatever the generator is producing is obviously much greater. Be safe. If you have a death wish and think "it's O.K." then please think of the innocents that may die.

[Ranchhand]

Google “hot skin” , I believe it’s a bad ground.

What chuckster says

[hankpage]

Assuming you have a portable generator, is it grounded?? Every generator I have owned has said to ground it in instructions. Yet I have never seen anyone driving a ground rod while camping. ( myself included :angel: ) If you say ALL breakers were off when tested, including the main, the problem must be between main breaker and power cord male end. Disconnect both ends of power cord and check for continuity between blades on plug to test if cord is shorted or wired correctly. There should not be continuity between male and female ends of ground to neutral. That will eliminate the cord as the culprit. Since the trailer is new contact the dealer ASAP to document the problem. If it were me and I had to stay in one spot until checked out by a professional I would go to an electrical supply or home store and get the ground rod I mentioned and ground the chassis of the trailer to provide an alternative path of current flow than yourself or others.
Let us know what you find and be safe, Hank

[travelin texans]

Until you get it checked out properly, if you have a shovel, stick in deeply into ground, use your jumper cables to the connect the metal of the shovel to the frame of the RV, this should get you by til a repair can be made.

[bjstager]

To update everyone after hours of service. We are not near a keystone dealer here in Ehrenberg, AZ on this trip so we had to get mobile service and hope that Keystone does the right thing. We isolated the issue and found that the line running from the shore power plug to the breaker box must be compromised. We had a new line ran and everything works fine. Where the line runs it is under cabinets. Very likely a clamp or screw must have compromised the line. After 2500 miles and multiple hookups it finally must have melted to compromise the line. We could not get into the underneath underpinning so we made the call to run a brand new line and 100% fix.

Guess the cabinet installers didn’t realize that the screws they used that are 1/2 to long in several spots in the upper cabinets are likely the same that installed to the floor and likely comprised the line.

Thank you all for everything and hoping with this knowledge someone else with this issue will now know.

[bjstager]

I just posted the reply. To add to this. This is a 1 month old trailer. Along with this we have had 2 water leaks in the kitchen area that has soaked the boards and drawers. Already have a missing screw on a fender. Have screws that are too long used to install cabinets and we had to back them out 1/2 inch so we could sit things flat in cabinets.

[hankpage]

To update everyone after hours of service. We are not near a keystone dealer here in Ehrenberg, AZ on this trip so we had to get mobile service and hope that Keystone does the right thing. We isolated the issue and found that the line running from the shore power plug to the breaker box must be compromised. We had a new line ran and everything works fine. Where the line runs it is under cabinets. Very likely a clamp or screw must have compromised the line. After 2500 miles and multiple hookups it finally must have melted to compromise the line. We could not get into the underneath underpinning so we made the call to run a brand new line and 100% fix.

Guess the cabinet installers didn’t realize that the screws they used that are 1/2 to long in several spots in the upper cabinets are likely the same that installed to the floor and likely comprised the line.

Thank you all for everything and hoping with this knowledge someone else with this issue will now know.



Glad to hear that you and family are no longer in danger. Good luck with your dealings with Keystone. I would try to get your dealer to contact them first. JM2¢, Hank

[Ken / Claudia]

Just for information, at work my normal patrol vehicle came on line last Nov.
it is driven daily. 3 weeks ago most of the electric stuff failed. Ford said it was a screw into a wire harness. A screw that was installed over a year ago.

[FlyingAroundRV]

To update everyone after hours of service. We are not near a keystone dealer here in Ehrenberg, AZ on this trip so we had to get mobile service and hope that Keystone does the right thing. We isolated the issue and found that the line running from the shore power plug to the breaker box must be compromised. We had a new line ran and everything works fine. Where the line runs it is under cabinets. Very likely a clamp or screw must have compromised the line. After 2500 miles and multiple hookups it finally must have melted to compromise the line. We could not get into the underneath underpinning so we made the call to run a brand new line and 100% fix.

Guess the cabinet installers didn’t realize that the screws they used that are 1/2 to long in several spots in the upper cabinets are likely the same that installed to the floor and likely comprised the line.

Thank you all for everything and hoping with this knowledge someone else with this issue will now know.
Thanks for keeping us updated.

If you haven't already, you should get a wired in EMS. That would have done two things 1) It would have detected the fault and 2) would have shut off the power to the rig, keeping you and the electricals safe.

I have mine wired in right behind the distribution panel. I thought about wiring it in closer to the hookup point which is on the opposite side of my trailer. After your experience, I'm glad now that I did it the way I did. If I get a break in the wire between the hookup point and the EMS, it will detect it. I'm not so sure it would detect the break downstream.

[sonofcy]

Thanks for keeping us updated.

If you haven't already, you should get a wired in EMS. That would have done two things 1) It would have detected the fault and 2) would have shut off the power to the rig, keeping you and the electricals safe.

I have mine wired in right behind the distribution panel. I thought about wiring it in closer to the hookup point which is on the opposite side of my trailer. After your experience, I'm glad now that I did it the way I did. If I get a break in the wire between the hookup point and the EMS, it will detect it. I'm not so sure it would detect the break downstream.
As a former electrician I say that the EMS should be mandatory from the manufacturer. I already have a Progressive hard wired 50 amp but will be switching it for the Hughes autotformer AND Power Watchdog 50 Amp Smart Bluetooth Surge Protector with Auto Shutoff – Hardwired Version. They are bringing out a combination unit hopefully in the spring and I am waiting for that. My rig has already been saved once from a lightning strike.

[cliff]

It ain't the trailer or something mis-wired in the trailer. It's the pedestal. Especially since it happened the way you describe. You have a ground in the pedestal that is hot and energizes the frame of your trailer. BTW I am an electrical engineer.

[bjstager]

It was the trailer. New line ran from plug to breaker box and issue fixed. Having dealer run the permanent one as what we had to have done was to “get us through”. And ran through a cabinet since we couldn’t pull the entire under belly out to run line.

[sonofcy]

It ain't the trailer or something mis-wired in the trailer. It's the pedestal. Especially since it happened the way you describe. You have a ground in the pedestal that is hot and energizes the frame of your trailer. BTW I am an electrical engineer.
They tried several pedestals. They have fixed the problem by running new wires in the trailer, it was a new unit and the cable from the entrance to the distribution panel went under some cabinets and someone drove a screw through the cable.

[ubetcha]

Yes it's called a "hot skin" condition. I ran into this before. Recommend watching this YouTube video. https://youtu.be/Y8h64X33aKg. Or if that doesn't work, search YouTube for " Hot Skin RV proximity test full scale" by Mike Sokol, how to seminars. I had contacted him by email and he actually called me one evening and talked about it and why it happens. The ground fault is open in the pedestals in that system and there is a fault in the wiring looking for a ground as i understand it.. Mike Sokol does know what he's talking about as he is an electrical engineer and is an instructor in a college or tech school out east somewhere. I don't recall where though.

[sonofcy]

Yes it's called a "hot skin" condition. I ran into this before. Recommend watching this YouTube video. https://youtu.be/Y8h64X33aKg. Or if that doesn't work, search YouTube for " Hot Skin RV proximity test full scale" by Mike Sokol, how to seminars. I had contacted him by email and he actually called me one evening and talked about it and why it happens. The ground fault is open in the pedestals in that system and there is a fault in the wiring looking for a ground.. Mike Sokol does know what he's talking about as he is an electrical engineer and is an instructor in a college or tech school out east somewhere. I don't recall where though.
There are 2 kinds of hot skin. One is caused by parking under or near high power lines. This is a harmless but scary to the uninitiated caused by induced currents. The other is life threatening and is caused by a wiring error or fault making the frame of the trailer electrically hot.

[LHaven]

They tried several pedestals. They have fixed the problem by running new wires in the trailer, it was a new unit and the cable from the entrance to the distribution panel went under some cabinets and someone drove a screw through the cable.

Yup, there are clearly is a wiring problem in the trailer. But I can't help thinking that the pedestal is also at fault.

The skin is almost certainly grounded, that is, connected to the frame which has a hard ground on it. Power in the skin should return to the pedestal over the ground pin. This should have triggered a GFI or otherwise popped a breaker.

Now, if the pedestal's ground was disconnected, then the skin would've stayed hot and the danger condition would be exactly as you described. Also, that would explain why you only saw this condition at one pedestal and never in other places. What it wouldn't explain is why the trailer wouldn't immediately pop the breaker on every other pedestal, unless the short was really really high resistance.

[ubetcha]

There are 2 kinds of hot skin. One is caused by parking under or near high power lines. This is a harmless but scary to the uninitiated caused by induced currents. The other is life threatening and is caused by a wiring error or fault making the frame of the trailer electrically hot.




The Hot skin condition I encountered was the camper was electrified. All the campers on the particular electrical feed were hot( except the fiberglass sided ones. But anything metal was hot on these). everything was ok until the last camper hooked up. Camp ground techs found that the water heater element in that camper was shorted. And with no ground fault circuit, the only ground that was available was through the campers. when the campers were touched the ground was completed through who ever touched their campers. To make thing worst, it had rained and the ground was wet. luckily no one was hurt. With the water heater circuit breaker turn off in the offending camper, the shocking situation was gone.

[sonofcy]

Yup, there are clearly is a wiring problem in the trailer. But I can't help thinking that the pedestal is also at fault.

The skin is almost certainly grounded, that is, connected to the frame which has a hard ground on it. Power in the skin should return to the pedestal over the ground pin. This should have triggered a GFI or otherwise popped a breaker.

Now, if the pedestal's ground was disconnected, then the skin would've stayed hot and the danger condition would be exactly as you described. Also, that would explain why you only saw this condition at one pedestal and never in other places. What it wouldn't explain is why the trailer wouldn't immediately pop the breaker on every other pedestal, unless the short was really really high resistance.
From the OP, 'We have moved to 3 sites now and same issue on all'. That pretty well rules out A pedestal issue.

[Sarge2]

Dang man, that's a lot of things on one rig... but having been an Auto tech and a service director at auto dealerships for years, I've seen worse coming out of a /the factory.. I don't believe that these TT assembly lines are much different that the auto industry... good days, bad days, people who care and others who could care less and the drinking and drug issues as well... all the makings of a poor quality and workmanship... I hope you can get these things squared away by the time the warranty expires... Good luck... Sarge

[LHaven]

From the OP, 'We have moved to 3 sites now and same issue on all'. That pretty well rules out A pedestal issue.

Yeah, I got that... but also:

"We traveled for 5 days and no issues. Got to this site and it happened."

Hard to reconcile these two. One possibility is that the entire grounding system is plotz in that particular campground. Certainly it could be that it took five days for the screw to work through the insulation, but still doesn't explain why the skin charge wasn't diverted to the outlet ground.

[JRTJH]

Yup, there are clearly is a wiring problem in the trailer. But I can't help thinking that the pedestal is also at fault.

The skin is almost certainly grounded, that is, connected to the frame which has a hard ground on it. Power in the skin should return to the pedestal over the ground pin. This should have triggered a GFI or otherwise popped a breaker.

Now, if the pedestal's ground was disconnected, then the skin would've stayed hot and the danger condition would be exactly as you described. Also, that would explain why you only saw this condition at one pedestal and never in other places. What it wouldn't explain is why the trailer wouldn't immediately pop the breaker on every other pedestal, unless the short was really really high resistance.

The ground and neutral are NOT bonded in an RV. It's considered a "sub-panel and the two remain separated. The "bonding" occurs in the campground pedestal. That's why the EMS will "fault out" when an unbounded generator is connected to the RV.

What you're suggesting is how a "house is wired not how an RV is wired"...

Any staple or screw through the neutral (inadvertently during manufacture) would "bond the ground and neutral" in the trailer and produce a "hot skin condition".....

http://beamalarm.com/Documents/120_vac_in_your_rv.html

[ubetcha]

From the OP, 'We have moved to 3 sites now and same issue on all'. That pretty well rules out A pedestal issue.


It still may be a pedestal issue if the 3 sites are on the same electrical circuit or leg or what ever the name would be. In my situation, there were 6 sites on that circuit, there fore all 6 sites were effected. The OP didn't state if they were just moved to an adjacent site or moved to a spot somewhere else in the camp ground. I guess more info is needed.

[LHaven]

The ground and neutral are NOT bonded in an RV. It's considered a "sub-panel and the two remain separated. The "bonding" occurs in the campground pedestal. That's why the EMS will "fault out" when an unbounded generator is connected to the RV.

What you're suggesting is how a "house is wired not how an RV is wired"...

Any staple or screw through the neutral (inadvertently during manufacture) would "bond the ground and neutral" in the trailer and produce a "hot skin condition".....

http://beamalarm.com/Documents/120_vac_in_your_rv.html

I'm not following up to argue, but to understand.

I already understand that neutral and ground aren't bonded in a RV. My suggestion doesn't rely on that.

The only assumption I am making is that the RV skin is bonded somewhere to the ground conductor, whether through the frame or whatever. If so, then any power on the skin should find its way to the ground prong. I assume this from the very history of the ground prong, which was to safeguard the cases of mechanisms (like motors, toasters, and the like) from ever being "hot." (Yeah, I'm old enough to have grown up with two-prong plugs, and roundish TV sets that "tickled" me when I was barefoot.)

Now, if RV "cases" aren't grounded that way, then I'm way off, but I'd be really interested to know why someone thought that was a good idea.

[JRTJH]

Any ground, whether on an RV, a drill (the old 3 wire/3 prong metal case tools) or any other device that's "grounded" is only as safe as the highest resistance on the ground circuit.

For instance, if the ground is actually 10 ohms (it should be 0 ohms) and you're standing in water (making YOUR ground circuit "less than 10 ohms" then any electrical charge will seek the "path of least resistance" and you'll become the ground.

There are a lot of "ifs" and "ands" and "excepts" in RV electrical circuits. Your assumption that the RV chassis is grounded and the skin is grounded to the chassis, "SHOULD" mean that the skin can't become hot.... That is: IF the ground circuit from the RV, through the shore power cord, to the campground pedestal, then through the campground wiring back to the campground "ground stake" is less resistance than "you and your wet feet" as you touch the trailer skin..... That's why the trailer neutral and the trailer ground are separate and not bonded together.

Typically, it's not a problem, but with a direct short from the trailer wiring to the trailer ground, there's no "guarantee that the campground "ground circuit" is going to be less resistance than your body... That makes the "hot skin" a dangerous condition, even though the trailer skin is "grounded to the trailer ground (which may or may not be less resistance than your body).....

[SC GT Yellow Jacket]

Glad you were able to find the problem and resolve safely.

Can you share the brand and model of your Keystone? Was it a TT or 5er?
Thanks

[Frosty46]

WE own a ten plus year old Raptor and have gone to many RV "shows" finding today's offerings sadly poor in quality of materials and sad workmanship is the norm even on half million dollar rigs. Todays sad business morals reflect our political situation that is drawing down our nation. The "deregulation" crase is reaping the obvious rewards......

[flybouy]

WE own a ten plus year old Raptor and have gone to many RV "shows" finding today's offerings sadly poor in quality of materials and sad workmanship is the norm even on half million dollar rigs. Todays sad business morals reflect our political situation that is drawing down our nation. The "deregulation" crase is reaping the obvious rewards......

I'm not going to defend any manufacturer but I'm unaware of any "deregulation " that's affecting the RV industry as far as the manufacturing process is concerned. I'm no economist but having worked in large corporate America all my life (the last 30+ yrs as a Director) I know what those companies demanded and what their economic models/strategies were.
As costs increase, i.e. utility rates, property taxes, insurance, wages, etc. the only way to hold costs down is to change manufacturing costs, materials, assembly techniques, and or increase production with fewer "man hours".
This is a lesson the auto industry learned years ago when imported cars came close to putting the "big three" out of businesses. The auto industry adapted by the use of more economical materials ( mostly made in other countries), utilizing more robotics to reduce the labor costs, reducing inventory by eliminating underperforming brands (Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Mercury, are a few) and shuttering plants and consolidating the output to other facilities. It was so bad 2 of the 3 went to the Government for loans. Chrysler sold out, and Ford didn't take the Fed's "help".
US automakers are now thriving.
This is the world we live in today and have been for centuries. The only voice we have is in our spending dollars. As long as the demand is there then there is no incentive for industry to change.
The RV industry doesn't have the opportunity, nor the need for the transition as sales have been at a record high for a few years.

[sourdough]

I'm not going to defend any manufacturer but I'm unaware of any "deregulation " that's affecting the RV industry as far as the manufacturing process is concerned. I'm no economist but having worked in large corporate America all my life (the last 30+ yrs as a Director) I know what those companies demanded and what their economic models/strategies were.
As costs increase, i.e. utility rates, property taxes, insurance, wages, etc. the only way to hold costs down is to change manufacturing costs, materials, assembly techniques, and or increase production with fewer "man hours".
This is a lesson the auto industry learned years ago when imported cars came close to putting the "big three" out of businesses. The auto industry adapted by the use of more economical materials ( mostly made in other countries), utilizing more robotics to reduce the labor costs, reducing inventory by eliminating underperforming brands (Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Mercury, are a few) and shuttering plants and consolidating the output to other facilities. It was so bad 2 of the 3 went to the Government for loans. Chrysler sold out, and Ford didn't take the Fed's "help".
US automakers are now thriving.
This is the world we live in today and have been for centuries. The only voice we have is in our spending dollars. As long as the demand is there then there is no incentive for industry to change.
The RV industry doesn't have the opportunity, nor the need for the transition as sales have been at a record high for a few years.


^^^^The question has been asked many, many times on the forum and Marshall hit the nail on the head. We may see a change in the next few decades but until then I suspect the current business model is what the RV manufacturers will follow.

When RVs become so expensive that most can't afford them, the sales dry up AND those that are buying only buy the premium models that provide the quality and amenities that they are looking for - THEN the manufacturers will start building to meet that criteria. Until then, as long as anyone with a credit score over 250 and $500 to their name can "sign on the dotted line" to purchase the cheapest, biggest RV they can possibly afford....and they are lined up by the thousands to take what they can get, the manufacturers would much prefer to build those "thousands" as fast as they can with little regard for what they are putting out because the buyers, by and large, don't care or just deal with it. How can they go wrong doing that? Short answer; they can't.

[LHaven]

When RVs become so expensive that most can't afford them, the sales dry up AND those that are buying only buy the premium models that provide the quality and amenities that they are looking for - THEN the manufacturers will start building to meet that criteria. Until then, as long as anyone with a credit score over 250 and $500 to their name can "sign on the dotted line" to purchase the cheapest, biggest RV they can possibly afford....and they are lined up by the thousands to take what they can get, the manufacturers would much prefer to build those "thousands" as fast as they can with little regard for what they are putting out because the buyers, by and large, don't care or just deal with it.

Much the same is true of the auto market, but BMW, Audi, Mercedes, and Land Rover don't seem to be going out of business anytime soon. I wish we could reach that sort of a balance in the RV marketplace as well.

[sourdough]

Much the same is true of the auto market, but BMW, Audi, Mercedes, and Land Rover don't seem to be going out of business anytime soon. I wish we could reach that sort of a balance in the RV marketplace as well.

I think comparing BMW, Audi, Mercedes or Land Rover to the cars made for the masses ie; GM, Ford, FCA is comparing apples to oranges. Consider 2018 sales for the "niche" brands:

BMW - 34,253 units
Land Rover - 67,655
Audi - 223,323
Mercedes - 315,959

Now consider sales for the "masses":

GM - 2,954,037
Ford - 2,497,318
FCA - 2,235,2014

If one looks at the above numbers you realize that it's painfully obvious that if the only sales of cars were limited to the "niche" brands (more expensive) there would be millions of folks unemployed and millions of folks without vehicles. Sort of like the same model is being used in the RV business....?:)

[JRTJH]

Much the same is true of the auto market, but BMW, Audi, Mercedes, and Land Rover don't seem to be going out of business anytime soon. I wish we could reach that sort of a balance in the RV marketplace as well.

There is an "RV equivalent" to the BMW, Audi, Mercedes and Land Rover. It's the Landmark, DV Suites, Airstream, New Horizons (Summit or Majestic) that are the "BMW's of the RV industry".. Pricing is significantly higher with the cheapest models ranging well over $100,000. So, they simply are not in the same "class" as the Hideout, Passport, Cougar or even the Montana. You wouldn't expect a Hundai or a Kia or Yugo to have the same quality as a BMW, just as you "shouldn't" expect a Hideout or Springdale to have the same quality as an Airstream. If you want "higher quality" you're not going to look at the "cheap end of the selection" in cars, and it's the same with RV's. Keystone, Jayco, Forest River, for the most part, have classes of RV's ranging from "cheap junk for the masses" to "high quality with a high price for the discerning buyer"... You've got to "move up in RV class" to get to the BMW kind of quality. You simply won't find it in a $13,000 Summerland.

Having owned an Airstream in the past, I can say with certainty, the Airstream dealerships ALL have a service department (just like Keystone dealerships) for a reason. Expensive RV's have problems just like cheap, thrown together RV's.

By the way, BMW, Audi, Mercedes and Land Rover all have service departments as well. Nothing mechanical is ever going to be "problem free across the entire inventory".

[flybouy]

Nine years ago my DW & I spent a week at the Greenbrier resort in WV. They advertised Land Rovers for their offroading lessons. We booked for an afternoon and when we arrived they had a fleet of highly accessorized Jeep Rubicons. When I required about the discrepancy they told me they couldn't keep the Rovers out of the shop long enough to be driven. Here's a quote from https://www.osv.ltd.uk/how-reliable-are-land-rover-and-range-rover/
If we look at J.D Power, from the years 2007 to 2016, Land Rover and Range Rover’s best score was either 3 out of 5 or 6 out of 10. For eight of those years, they scored 2.5 out of 5 or less. This is below average for dependability. A further study by J.D Power found that the industry average for problems was 133 per 100 vehicles. Land Rover had a pretty shocking 179 problems per 100 cars.
And just like rvs people still buy them.

[travelin texans]

There is an "RV equivalent" to the BMW, Audi, Mercedes and Land Rover. It's the Landmark, DV Suites, Airstream, New Horizons (Summit or Majestic) that are the "BMW's of the RV industry"..

Three of the 4 RVs mentioned are all owned by the same parent company, Thor, although operated independently but I'd suspect Thor expects the same quota out the door while still making a profit. Point is those may or may not be built any differently than any others in Thor's stable, just cost more.
Still can't figure out the remarks that politicians have anything to do with poor RV build quality???

[JRTJH]

Three of the 4 RVs mentioned are all owned by the same parent company, Thor, although operated independently but I'd suspect Thor expects the same quota out the door while still making a profit. Point is those may or may not be built any differently than any others in Thor's stable, just cost more.
Still can't figure out the remarks that politicians have anything to do with poor RV build quality???

It's no surprise that 3 or the 4 are THOR products. THOR owns about 75% of the RV market availability. So, yes, the offerings reflect who owns them. That said, I'd suspect there is some similarity with every THOR brand in "corporate philosophy" but I'd also suspect that the higher you go in the "RV food chain" the more quality you (and THOR) expect from what's offered "on the plate" at each brand....

I totally agree with the remark about politicians. Seems the more they "touch" the more they "screw up".... Without getting too political, politicians are probably best tolerated if they stay "in their lane" and leave the industrial market evolution to those who make them and those who buy them. Politicians "sticking their thumb on the scale" is much the same as scientists "cloning (or attempting to improve) a species by "interfering with good ideas".....

[flybouy]

It's "shocking" how far off topic we all ventured. (Puns intended):whistling:

[LHaven]

Every time I go scout out trailers that are more expensive than what I have, they are larger, heavier, come with bathtubs, TVs in every closet, and a lot of crap that I just don't need or want. For the increase in price, they add a lot of features, but I don't see them adding quality. What I really would like to see is a higher price point for the RV range that I'm interested in, that came with more quality in the build. Maybe I was wrong to mention Land Rovers. Maybe I should've mentioned jeeps -- as in 1950s era jeeps -- stuff built to keep running.

[flybouy]

Every time I go scout out trailers that are more expensive than what I have, they are larger, heavier, come with bathtubs, TVs in every closet, and a lot of crap that I just don't need or want. For the increase in price, they add a lot of features, but I don't see them adding quality. What I really would like to see is a higher price point for the RV range that I'm interested in, that came with more quality in the build. Maybe I was wrong to mention Land Rovers. Maybe I should've mentioned jeeps -- as in 1950s era jeeps -- stuff built to keep running.

That's typical when you stay within a brand or brand competitor. It's just like looking at a Chevy or Ford, the bigger the car the more expensive, the more gadgets. To move to higher quality usually requires going to a more "upscale" brand. And Jeep had their issues as well after then Chrysler Corp. bought them.

To me the RV shows are only useful in the convenience of having different brands and dealers in close proximity to compare notes. Personally I find them to be useless in making a final decision. Having a dozen people piled into an RV with every light on and hot as a greenhouse with kids jumping about and the cacophony of noise is not my idea of fun. Again, that's me, thank heavens everyone has their likes/dislikes and opinions or it would be a vaery boring world.

[JRTJH]

The RV dealerships and Keystone had a very similar "discussion" around 2012 with the "reinvention of the Springdale RV line. Dealerships envisioned a "cheap, reliable, basic RV" while the "designers/marketers" at Keystone envisioned a "low priced, feature laden entry level RV"....

Dealerships wanted simple, cheap, basic that they could market to RV'ers entering the market

Keystone wanted electric stabilizers, multiple TV's, electric awnings, fancy decals and colors that appealed to "today's tastes"....

Of course, Keystone "won the argument" and Springdales increased several thousand dollars in MSRP with no appreciable improvement (other than BLING). To appease the dealerships, Keystone came out with the Summerland line, which is remarkably similar to what Springdale "used to be"...

The problem: Springdale owners, expecting to buy a new trailer either had to "increase their budget to stay in the line with no improvement in quality" or "step down to a cheaper trailer with less quality and cheaper frames, windows, appliances and features than their older Springdale"....

From my perspective (for what that's worth) all of the major RV manufacturers are focusing on quantity (not quality) and shove trailers out the back door as fast as they can push them out. They add BLING to attract the "uninformed, new RV buyer" and advertise unimportant features while at the same time, buying cheaper, lighter frames, thinner luan panels, cheaper construction techniques and faster production lines. All of these make for less quality for the consumer, but as long as the consumer is standing in line, getting pissed because their trailer hasn't arrived yet, the manufacturers won't disappoint the guy that's standing in line waiting impatiently......

[flybouy]

Reminds me of the current "cell phone wars". New model every year with "minimal" overall changes for the "typical" user. But when they roll them out people are sleeping on the sidewalks will to plop down copious amounts of cash to that "new and improved" wonder. Call me a curmudgeon but No thanks, not me.

[66joej]

Reminds me of the current "cell phone wars". New model every year with "minimal" overall changes for the "typical" user. But when they roll them out people are sleeping on the sidewalks will to plop down copious amounts of cash to that "new and improved" wonder. Call me a curmudgeon but No thanks, not me.

Marshall thank goodness for those sidewalk sleepers. They make the phones most of us get with our plans free (kind of).

[bjstager]

We plugged into 50amp. Within 5 minutes the shore power breaker tripped. After that 50amp would always trip. We plugged into 30amp and found after that the trailer metal shocked you? Any ideas? We can not find the issue. Everything was running fine inside, but all the metal outside was “hot”.

Also we then plugged into our generator and the charge moved to the generator instead of trailer metal.
10/22/2019 Update: Issue has been found! They found the electrical cable was pinched in the frame from incorrect install at factory. So, all is being covered for all the repairs that need to be done. Since we traveled 2700 miles over 5 day with the pinch it finally broke through the line and caused the issue. This could have been much worse than the 120v shock, the line in the picture I was provided is messed up, thankfully no fires happened. Thanks for all the help!

[notanlines]

BJ, thanks for the update! That's how we all learn on this site.