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NavyMustang
09-11-2019, 03:12 PM
I can't help but wonder what kind of moronic engineers they have working at KeystoneRV. We have had nothing but problems with our only THREE YEAR OLD Bullet 248RKS, and most of what we're experiencing is because of piss-poor design. It's pretty common-sense stuff. For example, don't place water tanks directly over a cross-beam that you screw the underbelly into. It results in holes in the water tank when the self-tapping screws are inserted. And who in their right mind would design kitchen under-cabinet storage shelves with cheap staples upwards so as to not be able to store anything whatsoever ON the shelves without the cheap, thin luan bowing and caving in. (See photo.)

Dear Keystone: If you ever read these forums, I'm not an engineer, but I am a HELL of a lot smarter than the morons you have working for you. If you ever need some design tips, please feel free to contact me. We will NEVER purchase a garbage product from your company again.

Cheers!

"Running on MT"

sourdough
09-11-2019, 03:25 PM
Sorry for your problems. You might read the disclaimer at the bottom of the page; the website is not affiliated with Keystone RV in any way and I'm not aware of anyone from Keystone that ever reads or monitors it.

NH_Bulldog
09-11-2019, 03:33 PM
All manufacturers have their issues, regardless of brand or price. Even in the same factory, on the same production line, you will find a great deal of variance in build quality from unit to unit. If those issues are the worst you have after 3 years of use, it doesn’t sound too bad. Sucks to be sure, but it could be worse.

LHaven
09-11-2019, 03:51 PM
I realized that consistently intelligent design was probably an unreasonable expectation when I went to attach my new license plate to my new Cougar (see image).

("Satellite Prep" is actually "Park Cable," but the label isn't the problem.)

notanlines
09-11-2019, 04:02 PM
Mustang, sorry, but no hurt feelings on this forum, nor will anyone here give it a second thought. Better that you should address the comments in an email to a specific individual at the plant. And I suspect if you don't tone it down a little it will be posted for all the employees to laugh at. And, whereas what you say is I'm sure true, three years in an entry-level RV with only minor problems isn't too bad.

B-O-B'03
09-11-2019, 04:19 PM
Agreed!

I have had to shore up and rebuild just abut every shelf in our trailer, none of them had any structural integrity.

Pretty piss poor, but we still love the trailer, it is perfect for the 2 of us and now that I have fixed it, we have had no more issues.

-Brian

SummitPond
09-11-2019, 06:07 PM
Like yours (as shown in the photo) our shelves in the 19FBPR were stapled to the underside of the support braces - something I don't understand - what were they thinking? When ours "fell through" (all the way - total separation) my solution was to remount them on the top side and add additional screws through the support pieces - no further issues.

sourdough
09-11-2019, 06:23 PM
I guess, as a person that builds stuff, analyzes "things" and looks for shortcomings, seeing a shelf like that (or any of the hundred other things you find) I just fix it. I KNOW that the shelf can't support anything....but I know that on walk through. Idiotic design? I doubt it. Cheap? Of course, but then again I know that.

As far as Keystone "garbage" due to the shelf design etc., I would encourage anyone to go look at all of the RVs out there....you're going to find it everywhere, not just Keystone....unless you want to plop down 200k for a "toy"; not me.

chuckster57
09-11-2019, 06:25 PM
I wonder if the worker on the line had problems reading blue prints and thought they went in that way.

wiredgeorge
09-11-2019, 07:04 PM
I have to doubt that the worker on the line putting those shelves in had specific instruction to staple them from the bottom or some drawing telling him to. More likely they were put in while the cabinet was upside down and that seemed like the right way to do it or it was easier to put staples in from the underside. I doubt any engineer ever considered the direction of the staples. Just a guess...

travelin texans
09-11-2019, 09:49 PM
All the cabinetry is built off-site & wiredgeorge is probably absolutely correct, it came down the line upside down with an employee that was flipping burgers yesterday & may not be the only one nailed that way.

ctbruce
09-12-2019, 02:47 AM
And yet...we buy them any way as fast as they make them. Why? Because a bad day camping is better than the best day working.

chuckster57
09-12-2019, 03:01 AM
And yet...we buy them any way as fast as they make them. Why? Because a bad day camping is better than the best day working.



I go camping every day...just not in my trailer LOL!!!

66joej
09-12-2019, 04:42 AM
I wonder if the worker on the line had problems reading blue prints and thought they went in that way.

I think the blueprints were handed to Jacob upside down so not his fault.:D

B-O-B'03
09-12-2019, 06:19 AM
And yet...we buy them any way as fast as they make them. Why? Because a bad day camping is better than the best day working.

+1

I do not complain about the dumb stuff I find, just fix it and move on.

I do wonder sometimes about what they are thinking (or not) when these things are built.

We still love it, are glad we have it and the time to use it.

-Brian

jsmith948
09-12-2019, 06:59 AM
Could it be that the shelves are intentionally designed that way to limit the amount of weight one can store on said shelf? :whistling:...just a thought, it IS a lightweight trailer:D

NavyMustang
09-12-2019, 08:03 AM
Well, I sure was rather irate when I posted this last night, but I stand by it. It's not only the shelves.

Water tank has a hole in it because Keystone screwed the underbelly into the crossbeam that the tank sits on.

Luan has started to come up in three areas at the edge of the roof causing it to pull up on the rubber membrane.

No support beam installed under flooring on one side of the heater vent next to the dining table. Every time I step on that area, it feels like I'm going to fall through.

Toilet valve failed.

Shelves fell in.

Water heater control board failed.

Refrigerator constantly stops igniting on gas and needs reset.

I know this isn't an official forum, but they likely scan them often looking for issues. They say in their promotional materials that they pride themselves on quality. Total horse pooey. "Entry level" or not, it is garbage. Would anyone put up with a $30,000 AUTOMOBILE that was so cheaply made? Remember the Yugo?

itat
09-12-2019, 09:38 AM
NavyMustang, you said in an earlier thread that you're looking to go full time eventually and you want to add solar. Sounds like you need to upgrade to another, better quality unit before you start investing that kind of money and effort.

You generally get what you pay for. I would rather buy a used unit from a better quality brand than buy a new unit for the same money from a low end brand. I think a new unit after this Bullet would be your 4th? So you should have gained a lot of knowledge about what to look for.

I can tell you that when we were shopping for a new 5er last year, I went through a lot of units to get a representative idea of the quality they put into various brands. I really liked the floorplans in the Cougar 30RLS and the 315RLS 5ers but when I saw staples in the kitchen cabinets it became a show stopper for me. There were a few other things that were not as good as the FR Rockwood we ended up buying. I can't guarantee it will be better than the Cougars but I do have experience with the brand from our 2 previous units that have both been above average quality - and both purchased used.

I hope you can get your issues resolved, or move on without a big financial hit.

JRTJH
09-12-2019, 10:14 AM
itat hit on a topic that seems to have "flown over the head" of most RV shoppers.

Manufacturers build several "different conceptual trailers" to meet the demand of different consumers. Some want a BIG trailer and have a "Yugo" to pull it with... Some want a CHEAP trailer and don't want to pay more than $xx for it, Some want a trailer that "looks like it's well built" with all the "bling" but refuse to buy a "luxury trailer"....

So, to meet those varied demands, Keystone, Forest River, Jayco and many smaller "one or two line" manufacturers build a variety of trailer concepts....

Note the "trailer concepts" is bolded... That's the "key" to shopping for an RV. Far too many buyers have simply "FAILED MISERABLY" at comprehending the concept. If you buy a 34', 4200 pound trailer, you WILL NOT get solid floors, thick insulation, heavy carpet, thick, comfortable mattresses or huge FW, black and gray storage tanks. Don't expect 30 pound propane tanks and heavy "solid oak cabinets".... Ain't gonna happen....

To complain about "my trailer is built cheaply, has a thin floor and the shelves are stapled in place" when you buy a lightweight trailer, designed to be pulled by a lightweight tow vehicle.... Well, you simply can't market to owners of those vehicles by only providing the market with a 11,000 pound 30' trailer...

In my "previous career" I can't tell you how many people came into my office complaining that their "blood sugar was too high" and also complaining "diet food doesn't taste good".... They buy "high sugar foods" and expect the same results as you'd get from eating sugar free alternatives......

Same with travel trailers: You simply won't find the durability, construction, materials, comfort or appearance in a $15,000/4000 pound ultra-lite trailer that you'll find in a $60,000/12,000 pound "full time unit".

Adding solar to a cheap, light weight trailer won't improve livability, it'll only allow you to burn the lights longer into the night while you're fixing the things that weren't designed for full time use.

notanlines
09-12-2019, 10:15 AM
This is what comes from a quality RV: Jacket and utility cabinet is glued and screwed, stained and finished almost to perfection, hardware and coat hooks of the highest quality stainless....with the coat hooks HUNG AT 8'-6" ABOVE FLOOR LEVEL!!:eek:
You just can't make this crap up.

sourdough
09-12-2019, 11:36 AM
itat hit on a topic that seems to have "flown over the head" of most RV shoppers.

Manufacturers build several "different conceptual trailers" to meet the demand of different consumers. Some want a BIG trailer and have a "Yugo" to pull it with... Some want a CHEAP trailer and don't want to pay more than $xx for it, Some want a trailer that "looks like it's well built" with all the "bling" but refuse to buy a "luxury trailer"....

So, to meet those varied demands, Keystone, Forest River, Jayco and many smaller "one or two line" manufacturers build a variety of trailer concepts....

Note the "trailer concepts" is bolded... That's the "key" to shopping for an RV. Far too many buyers have simply "FAILED MISERABLY" at comprehending the concept. If you buy a 34', 4200 pound trailer, you WILL NOT get solid floors, thick insulation, heavy carpet, thick, comfortable mattresses or huge FW, black and gray storage tanks. Don't expect 30 pound propane tanks and heavy "solid oak cabinets".... Ain't gonna happen....

To complain about "my trailer is built cheaply, has a thin floor and the shelves are stapled in place" when you buy a lightweight trailer, designed to be pulled by a lightweight tow vehicle.... Well, you simply can't market to owners of those vehicles by only providing the market with a 11,000 pound 30' trailer...

In my "previous career" I can't tell you how many people came into my office complaining that their "blood sugar was too high" and also complaining "diet food doesn't taste good".... They buy "high sugar foods" and expect the same results as you'd get from eating sugar free alternatives......

Same with travel trailers: You simply won't find the durability, construction, materials, comfort or appearance in a $15,000/4000 pound ultra-lite trailer that you'll find in a $60,000/12,000 pound "full time unit".

Adding solar to a cheap, light weight trailer won't improve livability, it'll only allow you to burn the lights longer into the night while you're fixing the things that weren't designed for full time use.


^^^^^And herein lies the answer to so many questions and complaints about a person's RV. They all ARE NOT built the same (materials) and as the OP has shown with pics, some have extremely light materials put together in the quickest way that the installer could find.

I've bought entry level trailers because of some of the reasons John lists. I always figured that there would be issues whether it's little cheap plastic corner protectors that are falling off, cheap hinges/slides/shelves etc. It's done for a reason - weight/cost. Many times I did not have the money to try to get a "top" line RV.

Today when I go to a dealership and look for a bumper pull I tell them I want to look at the best, biggest and most luxurious units they have; that in itself can be pretty enlightening when looking at what they think is "top of the line" and then seeing what's in them after looking at dozens from various manufacturers. Even if/when I buy one of the "top" units I know without a doubt something will fail, but I do like heavier woodwork, glides/hinges and all the other things that come with that. When looking at a 5th wheel I do not dictate that criteria because the nicest ones are just too heavy for the kind of truck I am willing to drive so you compromise by getting the best made unit you can that fits within the weights you can safely carry. And, I know without a doubt that something will fail on them as well. It's just the nature of the beast. The two best things an RV owner can do is 1) make sure you got a good dealer and 2) make sure you can fix things. This is addition to the assumption that you picked the floorplan that will work for you.

Rambo
09-13-2019, 12:35 AM
I have the same camper but a 2018. My shelves are mounted on top of the braces, however there was no access to my water heater by-pass valve. I had to cut an access hole to winterize the unit. All in all very few issues on this one, but is does seem to be a crapshoot on quality when you by new. This is not my first bullet, and I know they are a light weight/economy trailer. I added a porcelain toilet, central vacuum and a few other things we like. Outside upgraded tires and rims, shocks, and Moride greaseable shackles. The total was about $1000 for everything but I saved a lot on the camper so it was well worth it, and we have some of the bells and whistles we like.

wiredgeorge
09-13-2019, 02:33 AM
Comparing the quality of trailers, the one feature that tells me I am in a top of the line rig.... the blue lights all over the inside. CLASS!

Anybody remember: ATTENTION KMART SHOPPERS, the blue light special is on aisle 7?

flybouy
09-13-2019, 02:48 PM
Comparing the quality of trailers, the one feature that tells me I am in a top of the line rig.... the blue lights all over the inside. CLASS!

Anybody remember: ATTENTION KMART SHOPPERS, the blue light special is on aisle 7?

And before you know it those "blue" lights wil be as dated as an avocado 🥑 color appliance!:whistling:

NH_Bulldog
09-13-2019, 03:17 PM
and to think I switched out all the blue LEDs for warm white ones.

teacherman
09-14-2019, 07:11 AM
itat hit on a topic that seems to have "flown over the head" of most RV shoppers.

Manufacturers build several "different conceptual trailers" to meet the demand of different consumers. Some want a BIG trailer and have a "Yugo" to pull it with... Some want a CHEAP trailer and don't want to pay more than $xx for it, Some want a trailer that "looks like it's well built" with all the "bling" but refuse to buy a "luxury trailer"....

So, to meet those varied demands, Keystone, Forest River, Jayco and many smaller "one or two line" manufacturers build a variety of trailer concepts....

Note the "trailer concepts" is bolded... That's the "key" to shopping for an RV. Far too many buyers have simply "FAILED MISERABLY" at comprehending the concept. If you buy a 34', 4200 pound trailer, you WILL NOT get solid floors, thick insulation, heavy carpet, thick, comfortable mattresses or huge FW, black and gray storage tanks. Don't expect 30 pound propane tanks and heavy "solid oak cabinets".... Ain't gonna happen....

To complain about "my trailer is built cheaply, has a thin floor and the shelves are stapled in place" when you buy a lightweight trailer, designed to be pulled by a lightweight tow vehicle.... Well, you simply can't market to owners of those vehicles by only providing the market with a 11,000 pound 30' trailer...

In my "previous career" I can't tell you how many people came into my office complaining that their "blood sugar was too high" and also complaining "diet food doesn't taste good".... They buy "high sugar foods" and expect the same results as you'd get from eating sugar free alternatives......

Same with travel trailers: You simply won't find the durability, construction, materials, comfort or appearance in a $15,000/4000 pound ultra-lite trailer that you'll find in a $60,000/12,000 pound "full time unit".

Adding solar to a cheap, light weight trailer won't improve livability, it'll only allow you to burn the lights longer into the night while you're fixing the things that weren't designed for full time use.

You hit upon the main point here, I believe. Everything is a compromise, and each of us has the privilege of living with the outcomes arising from our choices. That said, it's incumbent on us to do our research BEFORE we buy, and if we don't know much about RVs, then doubly so. I'd suspected the ultra light weight ones had to sacrifice something in durability.

I recall talking with a gentleman a number of years back, who traveled with a little bitty thing called a "Scamp." Better yet, he pulled it with some little car like a Ford Escort or something equally impractical. He told me he paid for his fuel savings with engines and transmissions. I thought it ridiculous, but his choice. A friend of mine who had a 40 foot 5er in the 90s, when physical therapists and occupational therapists often lived in RVs to follow work around, based on some federal reimbursement process that was changed around 1999, (causing a market glut of suddenly available RVs), paid for using an 80s era 3/4 ton 4 speed Ford with numerous clutches and transmissions. I did like that full floating 3rd member, seems the Fords had especially stout ones back then.

The young Primate and I are headed to a hot rod show downtown in a few. Should be fun. Have a great day out there!!!

flybouy
09-14-2019, 08:49 AM
I've seen a few episodes of "Going RV" on GAC. :popcorn:I get amused at the folks that want a 3 bedroom, 2 bath, outside kitchen, a playroom for the kids, a dish washer, washer and dryer, central vac, 120 gallon fresh water tank, 200 gal gray and blank tanks,batteries that will run the air conditioning while off the grid for a month, solid cherry cabinets throughout and enough storage to hold everything that their 2 car garage at home can hold.
The unit must be under 25' overall length so it will fit in state parks, andbe compact car towable. And a single axle so they don't have to pay extra tolls.
Price? Under $15K of course! :lol:

RWRiley
09-16-2019, 04:54 PM
And yet...we buy them any way as fast as they make them. Why? Because a bad day camping is better than the best day working.
After fighting poor quality issues with my 3 previous trailers, I bought a brand new high-end Triple slide TT (not Keystone). After owning it for 3 years, paying out about $4,000 in out of warranty repairs, plus whatever it cost me to pull to the factory 3 times, I sold it back to my dealer. I had returning delaminization, a soft spot in the floor (even though there was no evidence of water damage), and a stuck black water valve. Bottom line is RV quality is poor. I keep hoping Toyota or Honda will get in the game and give the RV industry the same lessons they gave the big 3 car guys.

So I asked my self, why do I do this ? And my answer is the same as ctbruce :)

sourdough
09-16-2019, 07:55 PM
After fighting poor quality issues with my 3 previous trailers, I bought a brand new high-end Triple slide TT (not Keystone). After owning it for 3 years, paying out about $4,000 in out of warranty repairs, plus whatever it cost me to pull to the factory 3 times, I sold it back to my dealer. I had returning delaminization, a soft spot in the floor (even though there was no evidence of water damage), and a stuck black water valve. Bottom line is RV quality is poor. I keep hoping Toyota or Honda will get in the game and give the RV industry the same lessons they gave the big 3 car guys.

So I asked my self, why do I do this ? And my answer is the same as ctbruce :)

Having owned several Toyotas I can only say that they "had" an edge on drivetrain quality...had. No longer. Pricing? They are priced above what a comparable Big 3 vehicle would cost. Electronics? Unless you move to a Lexus the Big 3 electronics left Toyota behind a decade ago. How do I know? I've owned Toyota 4Runners since 2010. Can't start to compete with my Rams and Uconnect. The upside is the resale on a Toyota which is much better than a comparable Big 3....maybe. But then again, the upfront purchase price offsets that. In the end, at this point in time, Toyota/Honda do not have a leg up as they used to. Just look at the JD Powers quality surveys...they are both falling, quickly the last I saw.

RWRiley
09-16-2019, 08:05 PM
Having owned several Toyotas I can only say that they "had" an edge on drivetrain quality...had. No longer. Pricing? They are priced above what a comparable Big 3 vehicle would cost. Electronics? Unless you move to a Lexus the Big 3 electronics left Toyota behind a decade ago. How do I know? I've owned Toyota 4Runners since 2010. Can't start to compete with my Rams and Uconnect. The upside is the resale on a Toyota which is much better than a comparable Big 3....maybe. But then again, the upfront purchase price offsets that. In the end, at this point in time, Toyota/Honda do not have a leg up as they used to. Just look at the JD Powers quality surveys...they are both falling, quickly the last I saw.

The reason the big 3 have the world class quality they do today is because they got their backsides kicked by some guys from across the pond in 1980 something. My point is - I would love to see the same happen in the RV industry.

sourdough
09-16-2019, 08:32 PM
I would love to see it too but don't see a "Toyota/Honda" RV maker out there. They all see how well the current model works for the "big boys" (poor quality/high profits) and follow that path. Good for them, bad for the consumer.

LHaven
09-16-2019, 08:34 PM
My previous RV was made by a craftsmanlike manufacturer. I got 20 years of nearly trouble-free service from it. My current RV would have been the same brand, had they not been eaten and digested by Winnie earlier this decade.

CaptnJohn
09-16-2019, 09:58 PM
I bought my 1st in 1976, a used TT. Since then I have owned several TTs and 5ers with a class a tossed in, all new units. My current and 2 previous Montanas have been problem free. The Cougar before those had 1 warranty item, furnace fixed in a day. Never considered entry level of anything. I feel money was saved by not having things to fix or upgrade in the long run. Want to go cheap without problems, just buy a tent. I stay about in the middle of the range.

Preyou
09-17-2019, 05:21 AM
Another example--the trailer hitch receiver on the back of my 2019 Cougar 315RLS. It is a 2 inch receiver. This is the standard size for a class 3 hitch. If you look for an RV approved bike rack most have a requirement of a class 3 receiver. All is good--right? Nope--the hitch is only good for 300# tongue weight. A class 3 is rated at 800# TW. This is no where in the documentation. Only after several calls to customer service did I find out about the limit. Now the question is do you put a rack that requires a class 3 receiver into a receiver that is way under designed?

RWRiley
09-17-2019, 04:27 PM
I would love to see it too but don't see a "Toyota/Honda" RV maker out there. They all see how well the current model works for the "big boys" (poor quality/high profits) and follow that path. Good for them, bad for the consumer.

Unfortunately - I think you are right.

Dan Lockwood
09-19-2019, 06:42 AM
Another example--the trailer hitch receiver on the back of my 2019 Cougar 315RLS. It is a 2 inch receiver. This is the standard size for a class 3 hitch. If you look for an RV approved bike rack most have a requirement of a class 3 receiver. All is good--right? Nope--the hitch is only good for 300# tongue weight. A class 3 is rated at 800# TW. This is no where in the documentation. Only after several calls to customer service did I find out about the limit. Now the question is do you put a rack that requires a class 3 receiver into a receiver that is way under designed?

I would take the rig to a good qualified welding shop and ask them for an opinion on beefing up the hitch mounting to the main frame. They "may" be able to add the additional reinforcements necessary to give you piece of mind for your back bike rack.

Good luck.

goducks
09-19-2019, 07:07 AM
Whats really disturbing is that the guy doing these things either has know clue about common sense building practices are or he just doesn't care.
Or he just doesn't have time to care because they've only got 4 hours to pump out a trailer so they can go home early.

Or all of the above.

capnkirk4
09-19-2019, 07:57 AM
to get something done with Keystone, I used 2 choices: first, send a private msg to Keystone on FB. You tell them the problem and that if you don't hear from them in x amount of time you will make the private msg public. Second, you write up all the complaints to a RV mag. like RV Life and get them to publicly shame Keystone into responding. Good luck. It worked for me in half the cases. Kirk

blubuckaroo
09-19-2019, 08:10 AM
We've run into a few things with our new Passport too, but all those things can be contributed to weight savings. Light weight can be cheesy and cheap.

The one that made me realize that was when I installed gas struts on the bed, I found out that the bed base was made exactly like an interior hollow core door. Two pieces of 1/4" paneling sandwiching a frame. The screws pulled right out! I had to line the bed frame and base with 5/8" plywood to make the struts work. I figure I added at least 50 pounds to the trailer.

pdaniel
09-19-2019, 08:18 AM
I own my sixth RV, my first 5th wheel. My TTs ranged from an 18 1/2 foot no frills to a 2017 30RLI Cougar. When we bought the Cougar we that we had purchased a better trailer than than our trade. Nope. Over time the walls in the under bed storage came loose (tiny little staples holding the walls to the frame), satellite connections that no longer worked, a forced air furnace that forced little air, cable slides that needed constant attention, and more and more.
We went to a local RV show this past spring. Many makes and models to choose from. We thought we would give Keystone/Thor one more chance and looked at the Cougars, Jaycos and Montanas. Not much difference in construction quality-very lacking and full of staples and simulated wood from paper.
So, we settled on a competitor's brand. Yes, it has the characteristics of mass-produced RVs. However, some of the construction quality is much better than I have found on Keystone products. And, the customer service of the manufacturer is very responsive and helpful.
I believe we the customer, rather than being blinded by the bright lights, shiny appliances and exterior, need to pay more attention to detail of the visible issues. That would make one question the quality of the non-visible details.
I should have looked much closer at the details of that Cougar. I did learn my lesson. I looked my new 5th wheel over extensively before the sale and again at PDI.

Look closely future buyers. It will save you in the long run.

pdaniel
09-19-2019, 08:19 AM
to get something done with Keystone, I used 2 choices: first, send a private msg to Keystone on FB. You tell them the problem and that if you don't hear from them in x amount of time you will make the private msg public. Second, you write up all the complaints to a RV mag. like RV Life and get them to publicly shame Keystone into responding. Good luck. It worked for me in half the cases. Kirk
Two years ago I submitted a query to Keystone. Still waiting for a response.

marktaco
09-19-2019, 08:19 AM
This type of poor design is so common in the RV industry, not just with Keystone. I have had 4 different brands and they are all like that. They are in such a hurry to rush them out, as light as possible as cheaply as possible that they just do garbage construction.

pdaniel
09-19-2019, 08:25 AM
After fighting poor quality issues with my 3 previous trailers, I bought a brand new high-end Triple slide TT (not Keystone). After owning it for 3 years, paying out about $4,000 in out of warranty repairs, plus whatever it cost me to pull to the factory 3 times, I sold it back to my dealer. I had returning delaminization, a soft spot in the floor (even though there was no evidence of water damage), and a stuck black water valve. Bottom line is RV quality is poor. I keep hoping Toyota or Honda will get in the game and give the RV industry the same lessons they gave the big 3 car guys.

So I asked my self, why do I do this ? And my answer is the same as ctbruce :)
A friend of mine purchased a brand new Allegro Bus. And it needed warranty work right out of the chute. He told me that we, the buyers, are the quality control department.

pitman44
09-19-2019, 08:40 AM
Agreed!

I have had to shore up and rebuild just abut every shelf in our trailer, none of them had any structural integrity.

Pretty piss poor, but we still love the trailer, it is perfect for the 2 of us and now that I have fixed it, we have had no more issues.

-Brian


This is why we prefer lightly used to new.

Fuzion 369
09-19-2019, 09:11 AM
Good point no tan lines. We have had several trailers and this is by far the best manufacturer in our opinion.

Rubicon100
09-19-2019, 09:51 AM
We've had our tt for a little over two years and knowing that a light weight tt is going to be made lighter we expected some problems but I have to say that we really love going camping as a whole family and we do a lot of preventative maintenance.
I spend a lot of time taking care of problems before they become problems. It's what it is and we love the time with the kids.
Dan

billsr
09-19-2019, 10:04 AM
We took our Pastor and his Wife up to the Upper Peninsula last year in our 2018 Bullet Premier. We had a great time, but did have one major problem with the RV.
The supports for the table top conversion to a bed were stapled in, and one of the supports gave way, causing the table top to fall. Luckily we had a piece of plywood that fit under the support, after we re-attached it to the cabinet wall, and rested against the floor, so no more problem with the "bed",
After coming home, the Wife and I used screws in all three supports , which work a hell of a lot better than staples.
I understand their use of staples, which are faster for attaching, but you would think that for supports that the table top rests on when using it as a bed, would be better served using screws and a good glue.
All in all, we are happy with our RV so far.

WDPatterson
09-19-2019, 11:24 AM
I have to doubt that the worker on the line putting those shelves in had specific instruction to staple them from the bottom or some drawing telling him to. More likely they were put in while the cabinet was upside down and that seemed like the right way to do it or it was easier to put staples in from the underside. I doubt any engineer ever considered the direction of the staples. Just a guess...

That actually sounds pretty plausible. Somebody did not understand how a cabinet is built. Clearly they didn't understand the necessary orientation of the Shelf in relation to the hangers. That's really not a forgivable thing. Should have been handled under warranty, at no cost to the consumer.

Fuzion 369
09-19-2019, 11:55 AM
Don’t get me wrong we have had our share of issues but I think the way our trailer is built and the overall performance has been better than forest river. Ours will be 2 years old this thanksgiving.

RWRiley
09-19-2019, 01:38 PM
A friend of mine purchased a brand new Allegro Bus. And it needed warranty work right out of the chute. He told me that we, the buyers, are the quality control department.

Yeah - Quality Control is poor at best in the Industry. I was invited to a factory tour at the manufacturer of an RV that I had just purchased, and they probably should not have let me see what goes on. The workers were really hustling to get trailers out the door. I asked why they were literally running from one place to the other. The answer I got was: "They get to go home after they get 12 trailers out the door". And that was ALL they cared about. Quality was NOT a consideration. It was all about volume. There were several issues with my rig, not the least of which was a lug nut what was cross-threaded, but they drove it on with an impact wrench anyway. They just don't care.

Fuzion 369
09-19-2019, 03:15 PM
That is just Crazy!

Hamops
09-20-2019, 06:12 AM
We've owned three different 5vr's from three different makers, and all of them have had senseless engineering issues, and that includes present our Keystone product. It's a common issue with all the makers that I doubt will ever be resolved. Besides engineering snafu's, there are assembly issues that need to addressed.

All you need to do is visit the RV shows and look at the RV's on display. That's when you can see some of the glaring engineering and design mistakes.

markjamestx
09-20-2019, 08:52 AM
This is not idiotic design, but have seen that in other areas of the TT. While replacing my brake assemblies after a 6k trip, it was discovered that the shackles, bushings and equalizers were very near failure. Lucky us, but I planned to change all out after returning to our home base. Replaced all with Dexter Heavy Duty, and Dexter 4400# brake assemblies (yes 4400#). Before anyone says we have overloaded the TT, it has been on the scales fully loaded for 5 and 6 week trips which are 4 to 6K trips. TT is a 2017 Bullet.

http://www.keystoneforums.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1143&pictureid=6608

http://www.keystoneforums.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1143&pictureid=6609

travelin texans
09-20-2019, 09:07 AM
This is not idiotic design, but have seen that in other areas of the TT. While replacing my brake assemblies after a 6k trip, it was discovered that the shackles, bushings and equalizers were very near failure. Lucky us, but I planned to change all out after returning to our home base. Replaced all with Dexter Heavy Duty, and Dexter 4400# brake assemblies (yes 4400#). Before anyone says we have overloaded the TT, it has been on the scales fully loaded for 5 and 6 week trips which are 4 to 6K trips. TT is a 2017 Bullet.

http://www.keystoneforums.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1143&pictureid=6608

http://www.keystoneforums.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1143&pictureid=6609

I only had 5-6k on my last 5th wheel & the shackles & plastic bushings were worse than yours + plus all 4 brake assemblies were full of grease from the factory or dealer using the EZ lube feature. Fortunately the manufacturer reimbursed me for parts as it was only 9 months old, my labor was free.
You made a good choice with the upgrade, money well spent.

wiredgeorge
09-20-2019, 09:15 AM
1. All RVs regardless of manufacturer use the same parts and appliance sources for the most part. If an appliance dies, it may be a junk appliance OR improper install by the manufacturer. All appliances are somewhat suspect these days having come over on a boat from a third world country.

2. The folks slapping the trailers together are basically unskilled laborers who learn on the job and likely receive little, if any, training. Just given a hammer and told go get her! These ain't Amish craftsman as some manufacturers claim and in fact the word craftsman doesn't work.

3. HIGH HIGH turnovers in these factories. A lot of it is pressure to get units out the door, little training and McDonalds probably is hiring for about the same amount. You will note in RV industry job postings most emphasize that there is no mandatory drug test. Think about that when you complain about shoddy assembly.

teacherman
09-20-2019, 11:08 AM
Replaced all with Dexter Heavy Duty, and Dexter 4400# brake assemblies (yes 4400#).


http://www.keystoneforums.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1143&pictureid=6609

I really like the grease fittings on the shackles. That makes so much sense! DO they list an interval for regreasing those?

markjamestx
09-20-2019, 11:56 AM
The Dexter specs do not say, but I plan to check about every 1500 to 2000 miles.

BTW, sorry for the photos being so large they are per website max pixel size. Also, I forgot to mention that my TT max capacity is 8800# and it scaled out at 1k less.

Local150
09-21-2019, 03:45 PM
I have begun to think we are part of the problem! Putting shelves in like that among other things is bull. If everybody complains you get somewhere,,, instead we say,,,, oh I will just fix it myself

flygrimm
09-22-2019, 04:53 PM
I have begun to think we are part of the problem! Putting shelves in like that among other things is bull. If everybody complains you get somewhere,,, instead we say,,,, oh I will just fix it myself

It's probably by design. Most stuff is relatively easy to fix thankfully. They have made it so difficult to get any kind of warranty work and regular work is backed up for months so you are forced to fix it, live with it or be without your rig for extended periods.

Stuart

notanlines
09-23-2019, 02:20 AM
I pulled this ad from the Goshen, Indiana area.

RV Plumber
H L Enterprise Inc.
Elkhart, IN 46516
$15 - $18 an hour

Full Time experienced Recreational Vehicle Plumber. Must be able to install all water lines, drain pipes, toilets, holding tank/s install, water pumps, and pluming fixtures which must include RV terminations and adherence to RVIA pluming codes. Maintain a good work area and environment with little to no supervision.

Job Type: Full-time

Salary: $15.00 to $18.00 /hour

I don't know if this is in line with what most of you thought was paid to their 'craftsmen,' but this is the real world.

Northofu1
09-23-2019, 02:57 AM
This is not idiotic design, but have seen that in other areas of the TT. While replacing my brake assemblies after a 6k trip, it was discovered that the shackles, bushings and equalizers were very near failure. Lucky us, but I planned to change all out after returning to our home base. Replaced all with Dexter Heavy Duty, and Dexter 4400# brake assemblies (yes 4400#). Before anyone says we have overloaded the TT, it has been on the scales fully loaded for 5 and 6 week trips which are 4 to 6K trips. TT is a 2017 Bullet.

http://www.keystoneforums.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1143&pictureid=6608

http://www.keystoneforums.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1143&pictureid=6609

That happened to me on the road before hitting our first campsite, 10 days in Ohio and $1200 later. I won't even put grease in my bearings through the bearing buddy. Uncle was a GMC mechanic for years and says they're garbage.

Preyou
09-23-2019, 05:26 AM
For what we pay, this is ridiculous!!! I agree if everyone starts complaining loudly, improvements might be made. I would imagine that the factory warranty costs are extremely high. Buy a share of Thor stock and let them know your feelings.

LHaven
09-26-2019, 05:04 PM
The supports for the table top conversion to a bed were stapled in, and one of the supports gave way, causing the table top to fall... you would think that for supports that the table top rests on when using it as a bed, would be better served using screws and a good glue.


We had the same happen in our previous trailer from another manufacturer. It was the wood molding around the table top that let go, dumping my 84-year-old mother. It too was only stapled and glued, and the collapse tore some of the formica off the table top as well.

On my current trailer, one of the first things I did was to get some ABS pipe and make alternative posts for the table at the right height for when it is in bed position. They both slide inside one of the stock aluminum legs, so it's very convenient.

I have still learned not to put anybody on it heavier than a kid.

busterbrown
09-26-2019, 06:07 PM
For what we pay, this is ridiculous!!! I agree if everyone starts complaining loudly, improvements might be made. I would imagine that the factory warranty costs are extremely high. Buy a share of Thor stock and let them know your feelings.

For the typical 4 to 5 trips per year family, I think these coaches are designed to hold up (somewhat) just enough to make it through a few seasons without major failures. Unfortunately, for many of us RVers, we expect more out of (and do more with) our trailers than the typical family. Strenuous cross country trips, rough washboard BLM roads, oppressive heat and sun in the south, freeze and thaw cycles in the north. This is reality and these conditions are what causes issues to show up quickly. Unfortunately, quality control is practically non-existent in the plants. And that's not about to change. Profitizing is priority number 1 as the economy continues to be robust.

My crystal ball is a bit blurry now but I wish I could see how the processes (and RV industry as a whole) change when the next big correction happens. Most obviously, the buyers won't be there. The used market will be flooded with the tired coaches as unemployment rises. Will it be a future of plant consolidations, closures, and shutterings? And after the dust settles, does the industry rebuild into something better for those patiently waiting?

skids
09-28-2019, 06:06 AM
I wish that the trailer on the assembly line could be moved out of reach of the staple gun when screws should be installed. (I know it is not that simple). First line supervisors should do their jobs with diligence and care.

busterbrown
09-28-2019, 06:13 AM
I wish that the trailer on the assembly line could be moved out of reach of the staple gun when screws should be installed. (I know it is not that simple). First line supervisors should do their jobs with diligence and care.

I concur. My interior ceiling panels, trim moulding, and roof decking do too!

66joej
09-28-2019, 06:14 AM
I wish that the trailer on the assembly line could be moved out of reach of the staple gun when screws should be installed. (I know it is not that simple). First line supervisors should do their jobs with diligence and care.

Sorry I think they are too busy coordinating when the combines will be on their land.:lol:

ctbruce
09-29-2019, 05:18 PM
Since it's all about number of units finished dictates quitting time, speed is king. Quality be dam....darned.

Rber1234
09-29-2019, 05:37 PM
We took our Pastor and his Wife up to the Upper Peninsula last year in our 2018 Bullet Premier. We had a great time, but did have one major problem with the RV.
The supports for the table top conversion to a bed were stapled in, and one of the supports gave way, causing the table top to fall. Luckily we had a piece of plywood that fit under the support, after we re-attached it to the cabinet wall, and rested against the floor, so no more problem with the "bed",
After coming home, the Wife and I used screws in all three supports , which work a hell of a lot better than staples.
I understand their use of staples, which are faster for attaching, but you would think that for supports that the table top rests on when using it as a bed, would be better served using screws and a good glue.
All in all, we are happy with our RV so far.

I have same trailer as you and I wondered about all the weight put on the tabletop when used as a bed. I went to local hardware store and bought some PVC pipe. I cut the pipe to fit where support tubes for table go when the table is lowered unto bed. Tabletop now supported in the middle and keeps top from flexing in middle and possibly cracking

WJQ
09-09-2020, 03:59 PM
I HOPE THE BEST MINDS IN THE FORUM SEE THIS APPEAL. Wire routing through the cap. Please go to my thread on installing a solar system with an inverter in a 2018 Cougar. Thanks.

LHaven
09-09-2020, 04:17 PM
I have same trailer as you and I wondered about all the weight put on the tabletop when used as a bed. I went to local hardware store and bought some PVC pipe. I cut the pipe to fit where support tubes for table go when the table is lowered unto bed. Tabletop now supported in the middle and keeps top from flexing in middle and possibly cracking

This was a superior idea. When I read it, I immediately went out and found some ABS piping of the right size to just fit inside the metal table leg tubes (they didn't have PVC in that size). Cut it to the proper length to support the center of the table in the down position, and both pieces store inside one of the table legs. It's a bit touchy to set up from under the lowered table (the little guy knows it's his special job), but it works fine. Now I don't have to worry about my grandson stressing the middle of the table, or loading the seat brackets enough to make them fail (which actually happened to us in a previous rig when we had a small adult using that "bed"). So, thank you for the great idea.

LHaven
09-09-2020, 04:25 PM
I HOPE THE BEST MINDS IN THE FORUM SEE THIS APPEAL. Wire routing through the cap. Please go to my thread on installing a solar system with an inverter in a 2018 Cougar. Thanks.

Maybe you could include a link to the referenced posting. I found what I believe is your thread, but could not find an issue with routing wires through the cap. Then I had my robot search the entire thread for the word cap, and still did not find this issue.

WJQ
09-09-2020, 04:29 PM
THANKS. I am just learning how to use this forum. Here is the link -- I hope.

https://www.keystoneforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=410085#post410085

JRTJH
09-09-2020, 04:42 PM
I HOPE THE BEST MINDS IN THE FORUM SEE THIS APPEAL. Wire routing through the cap. Please go to my thread on installing a solar system with an inverter in a 2018 Cougar. Thanks.

Just a "note of clarification"....

No member of this forum (regardless of "best or worst minds") has any influence with Keystone RV company. They are not associated with the forum and in the time I've been a member, I've never seen anyone from the factory comment in any thread. Further, since being a moderator and an administrator on the forum, I've never seen anyone with an IP associated with Keystone and no IP locations have been reduced to Goshen, IN...

So, It's highly unlikely that anyone from Keystone (regardless of their mental capacity) will see your posts on this forum. If you want to assure that "great minds at Keystone" see your work, you might contact Keystone Customer Service and inquire as to who in the Design or Engineering departments would be a good contact to discuss or to send your comments.

Posting here will "help other members to avoid your problems and to improve on your designs" but Keystone won't be among those reading your comments.....

BrooksFam
09-09-2020, 05:05 PM
As a former engineering manager at a high end motor coach company, a lot of this makes me chuckle. When I came out of the high tech engineering field to take this position, I was amazed at the willy-nilly approach to this industry, and to be honest, there aren't engineers designing the living spaces of a TT or MH because as noted, they get paid about $15/hour. Draftsmen do the majority of the design work. Most of the folks on the production line are trained on the job and a high percentage didn't speak or read English, let alone blue prints.

flybouy
09-10-2020, 04:20 AM
As a former engineering manager at a high end motor coach company, a lot of this makes me chuckle. When I came out of the high tech engineering field to take this position, I was amazed at the willy-nilly approach to this industry, and to be honest, there aren't engineers designing the living spaces of a TT or MH because as noted, they get paid about $15/hour. Draftsmen do the majority of the design work. Most of the folks on the production line are trained on the job and a high percentage didn't speak or read English, let alone blue prints.

It's the same in the restaurant/retail world. The designers use their crayolas to "make it pretty". Then it goes to an architectural firm to have the MEPs (mechanical, electrical, plumbing) and if necessary structural drawings done to make the design work and meet the governing codes.

The designers job it to make it appealing to the customer, period.

MXRacer
05-05-2021, 04:11 AM
This is not idiotic design, but have seen that in other areas of the TT. While replacing my brake assemblies after a 6k trip, it was discovered that the shackles, bushings and equalizers were very near failure. Lucky us, but I planned to change all out after returning to our home base. Replaced all with Dexter Heavy Duty, and Dexter 4400# brake assemblies (yes 4400#). Before anyone says we have overloaded the TT, it has been on the scales fully loaded for 5 and 6 week trips which are 4 to 6K trips. TT is a 2017 Bullet.

https://www.keystoneforums.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1143&pictureid=6608

https://www.keystoneforums.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1143&pictureid=6609

That right there is scary.

As soon as I got my Cougar home from the dealer on day one, I replaced the stock suspension parts with the Dexter EZ Flex kit with shackles, bushings, and wet bolts. I also added three Mor Ryde frame braces that connect the leaf spring brackets to each other. By the first weekend, it had the Trailer King tires replaced with Goodyear Endurance tires. I wanted to address some of the weaknesses before its first outing.

WDPatterson
05-05-2021, 04:16 AM
Thor is owned by Berkshire Hathaway... Do you know who owns the most stock in Berkshire Hathaway??

E Rod
05-05-2021, 05:34 AM
I can't help but wonder what kind of moronic engineers they have working at KeystoneRV. We have had nothing but problems with our only THREE YEAR OLD Bullet 248RKS, and most of what we're experiencing is because of piss-poor design. It's pretty common-sense stuff. For example, don't place water tanks directly over a cross-beam that you screw the underbelly into. It results in holes in the water tank when the self-tapping screws are inserted. And who in their right mind would design kitchen under-cabinet storage shelves with cheap staples upwards so as to not be able to store anything whatsoever ON the shelves without the cheap, thin luan bowing and caving in. (See photo.)

Dear Keystone: If you ever read these forums, I'm not an engineer, but I am a HELL of a lot smarter than the morons you have working for you. If you ever need some design tips, please feel free to contact me. We will NEVER purchase a garbage product from your company again.

Cheers!

"Running on MT"

I agree with you. As a job interviewer, I would screen and make sure to hire qualified people that know what they're doing. I've done several changes on my Alpine where the factory didn't make sense

E Rod
05-05-2021, 06:05 AM
And yet...we buy them any way as fast as they make them. Why? Because a bad day camping is better than the best day working.

Amen to that.....:cool: