Hello All, noob question - Yet another tow vehicle question

[Sambucus]

Hello All,
I am moving this from the new user intro forum, because I never read instructions first. Sorry


My wife and I decided, now that I am on the glide path to retirement (6 years or so) to get an RV and camp with the grandchildren and snowbird later. I have heard the advice "buy your third trailer first".

I purchased a 2019 Silverado 1500 CC SB with a tow package, rated 9500 lbs towing.

We are zeroing in on a Passport GT 2950BH. We love the floor plane (as do the grandkids) and it looks to be the right feature/quality/price balance.

That said, I am an engineer and therefore I over-analyze everything. All the math says that this trailer will fit the truck and I should be fine, but never having owned a trailer, I am looking for some real world facts to confirm this. My research is all over the map, some say 6000 GVWR trailer for this truck to allow plenty of margin, (this trailer is 6145 dry, 7800 GVWR)

As I said, all the math works, but am I too close to max, realistically?

Thanks for any advice!

A few more details

5.3 liter with 3.42 (I think). Combined GVW 15000 lbs, truck GVWR is 7100. Max hitch is listed at 960. Max Payload is 2095

The trailer shows a hitch weight of 705

I have SOOO much to learn..

If I have to get a smaller trailer I am OK with it, but my wife really likes this one. The truck is 3 months old, so no upgrade there for awhile.

[Canonman]

That 5.3 with 3:42 gears will struggle on any hills. It will pull the Passport but will require lots of patience when climbing or descending any significant grades. Again, get some LT tires on the truck and invest in a quality weight distribution hitch with sway control. Keystone has several similar but smaller models that will be lighter and may fit your truck better. The 240BH might be an option??

[Sambucus]

Thanks for the tip on the tires. I will look at the smaller TT, just have to talk my family in to it (their idea of "roughing it" is very different from mine)

[JRTJH]

There are a couple of considerations that don't seem to be included in your "numbers"...

First, the tongue weight of 704 pounds, is empty. You'll need to add about 50 pounds for a single battery, more if you intend to upgrade to dual batteries and you'll also need to add 40 pounds for propane. There are two 20 pound propane tanks on the trailer, but the specs only include the weight of the tanks, not the propane (the trailer leaves the factory with no propane.

It's usually "safest" and closer to accurate weights, to use the truck GVW, trailer GVW and estimate the tongue weight to be somewhere between 12-15% of the trailer GVW. You'll also need to add the weight of the hitch (usually around 100-150 pounds) to that calculation.

So, essentially, your "complete rig" would weigh around 7100 (truck) + 7800 (trailer) = 14900 total weight. Using the trailer GVW of 7800 pounds would give an estimated tongue weight somewhere between 936 and 1170 pounds (12-15% of GVW). plus the weight of the hitch assembly.

You didn't include the GCWR rating for your truck, so I'm not sure how close to the maximum total weight capacity for the rig, but I'd suspect you're going to be "very close" with a total estimated weight of 14900.

[Sambucus]

That is correct GCVW is 15000, so this is like right at the limit.

[JRTJH]

That is correct GCVW is 15000, so this is like right at the limit.

All of the auto manufacturers use "sleight of hand" when calculating the maximum trailer weight allowable. On your truck, with a GCWR of 15000 pounds, the truck would have to be empty (or nearly so) to tow a 9000 pound trailer. If you add passengers and cargo/trailer tongue weight to get closer to the truck's GVW, that "allowable trailer weight" goes down "pound for pound"...

So, if you hitch up a 8000 pound trailer and add 2 grandkids, grandma and around 500 pounds of cargo weight, you'll be over the GCWR, even though the trailer is 1000 pounds lighter than the maximum.... Advertising magic is the only name I can put to the practice.

[notanlines]

Also as an engineer, and since you over-analyze everything, you should have known to buy the RV first and the TV to match the requirements second.:nonono:

[FlyingAroundRV]

Also, subtract from your payload numbers anything that will be carried in the truck, like people/pets, fuel, stuff carried in the bed...
Using the numbrs John gave you for the calcs is the realistic starting point.
IMO, a 150 size truck is a little on the lean side for a 29' trailer. You will likely find the towing experience "challenging" with that combo.

[sourdough]

Hello All,
I am moving this from the new user intro forum, because I never read instructions first. Sorry


My wife and I decided, now that I am on the glide path to retirement (6 years or so) to get an RV and camp with the grandchildren and snowbird later. I have heard the advice "buy your third trailer first".

I purchased a 2019 Silverado 1500 CC SB with a tow package, rated 9500 lbs towing.

We are zeroing in on a Passport GT 2950BH. We love the floor plane (as do the grandkids) and it looks to be the right feature/quality/price balance.

That said, I am an engineer and therefore I over-analyze everything. All the math says that this trailer will fit the truck and I should be fine, but never having owned a trailer, I am looking for some real world facts to confirm this. My research is all over the map, some say 6000 GVWR trailer for this truck to allow plenty of margin, (this trailer is 6145 dry, 7800 GVWR)

As I said, all the math works, but am I too close to max, realistically?

Thanks for any advice!

A few more details

5.3 liter with 3.42 (I think). Combined GVW 15000 lbs, truck GVWR is 7100. Max hitch is listed at 960. Max Payload is 2095

The trailer shows a hitch weight of 705

I have SOOO much to learn..

If I have to get a smaller trailer I am OK with it, but my wife really likes this one. The truck is 3 months old, so no upgrade there for awhile.


First off, completely, totally forget the "9500 lb. tow rating". It is meaningless and just a sales gimmick to lead folks to buy a truck not suited to the job at hand.

Some other thoughts; your receiver max. weight is listed as 960lbs. A 7800 lb. trailer (and you will get there trying to take grandkids and have fun) at 15% tongue weight is 1170lbs. Now add the 100-150 lbs. for the wdh/sway control required and you can see you have a problem. I used the 15%, which is generally considered max because you never know how the trailer is laid out or how you will load. At 12% (which I run) it would be 936; still over the receiver rating with the hitch.

The old saying of "buying your 3rd trailer first" considers that you have bought enough TV for said "3rd trailer", not your 1st truck and strap your 3rd upgraded trailer to it.

There ARE lots of things to consider when attempting to throw a larger trailer on the back of a truck; particularly a 1/2 ton. Here is a response I made in the last couple of days to another person asking about the same thing you are:

"The hitch will help but always bear in mind that the 1/2 ton is meant primarily as a comfortable grocery getter and "light" hauler of some 2x4s, plywood, washing machine etc. Not a lot of weight strapped on the back of the frame that subjects the truck to all kinds of pushes, pulls, shoves and twists. The primary purpose listed above is why they come with light duty springs, shocks, tires, ring and pinon, axles, u joints etc. etc.

Replacing the WDH/sway is a start but researching your vehicle I didn't see any option for a tire upgrade; they are all P rated tires (passenger). That in and of itself will allow the push/pull because the softer sidewalls flex and allow the truck to "slide" left and right when subjected to the push/pull of trucks, wind etc. They need to be LTs. Springs are softer so they will allow the same thing. It doesn't make a lot of sense to try to replace the springs on a new truck but I would put in a set of air bags. It won't increase the payload but it will "stiffen" the movement of the body/axle and minimize just one more weak spot. The shocks are "soft" as well so going to the grocery store is "comfortable" - not stiff to minimize body roll and sway. Replace them with a heavy duty shock; I use/used Bilsteins."

As an additional point: if you are going to be taking grandkids with you, you want to err on the side of safety, not be "at the max". To me that means a reserve cushion of 10-15% below your max ratings on everything....payload, gvw, gawr, gcvwr etc. Look at ALL of them because they all count.

[notanlines]

And even if you don’t have the kids, the rest of us do!!!

[Sambucus]

Well, to be fair, this started as the wife wanting a restored Scotty or Shasta. A few years ago we went to a flea market in Dublin, NH where everyone was showing these off in kind of a mini "show". Then she decided she wanted a full bath, full kitchen, etc. So the target moved.

At the time we bought the truck, we went to the local chain dealer (not Camping World) where the salesman, very responsibly, referred us to a Grey Wolf 26DJSE, at about 7000 GVWR and around 4700 dry. This is still an option, but I was worried about quality of these things in my research. So we started looking a bigger units, with more options, slides (Grey Wolf had no slides), better quality, etc. an we ended up with this issue.

So, probably back to the original result, smaller, no slides, etc.

And the search continues.

[Sambucus]

Sourdough, thank you for the excellent advice. You are quite correct, of course

[Roscommon48]

to small of an engine.
and, if this is your first rv, buy a used one.
as for the grand kids, you'll be surprised how much they aren't interested in camping, get one that you like.

[notanlines]

to small of an engine.
and, if this is your first rv, buy a used one.
as for the grand kids, you'll be surprised how much they aren't interested in camping, get one that you like.
I loved how you phrased this: 'get one that you like.'
I'll ask before Danny or one of the 'others' do: Get an RV or get a grandchild that you like...:D
At times, both are hard to find....:eek:

[sourdough]

Well, to be fair, this started as the wife wanting a restored Scotty or Shasta. A few years ago we went to a flea market in Dublin, NH where everyone was showing these off in kind of a mini "show". Then she decided she wanted a full bath, full kitchen, etc. So the target moved.

At the time we bought the truck, we went to the local chain dealer (not Camping World) where the salesman, very responsibly, referred us to a Grey Wolf 26DJSE, at about 7000 GVWR and around 4700 dry. This is still an option, but I was worried about quality of these things in my research. So we started looking a bigger units, with more options, slides (Grey Wolf had no slides), better quality, etc. an we ended up with this issue.

So, probably back to the original result, smaller, no slides, etc.

And the search continues.


Daniel,

You aren't doing anything new. I, and I suspect most on this forum and others, have gone in looking for one thing and that "thing" grew right before us, right in our mind, as we walked along looking at one trailer then another even though we knew what our vehicle limitations were....making mental notes on how this weight or that would be "OK" if I just did this or that. I'm guilty as charged.:) I knew exactly what I was doing when I bought a trailer that would overload the truck all the while rationalizing that I would compensate in one way or the other....and I did; with a bigger truck.

Just saying that you and your DW are doing exactly what we all do. In my case I went with what we found that we really wanted even if it was too big because I knew I could buy a new truck if required. We are extremely happy that we did....and contented with the unit to this day. The smaller unit, bought to "fit the TV", would have left us wanting and in the same "upgrade" routine so many experience.

If you are unable to upgrade TV then I think you are on track with reassessing the trailer and what will work with the truck. If possible, I would look at what the minimum would be size wise that would make it comfortable for both you and DW as well as the grandkids and shoot at that....if you can make the transition to a new truck. I know you said yours is only 3 mos. old, and I've not gotten rid of a 3 mo. old truck; but I have a 6mo. old truck - to get the current truck in my signature. It was, and has been, one of the best decisions I've ever made as far as vehicles go; and after such a back on forth on this and other forums because I didn't like HD trucks. :nonono:

Personally, if you are going to take the grandkids with you for a few years (ours totally loved getting off grid in tents, popups or RVs) then try to transition to retirement (we have been for 13 years) I would HIGHLY recommend something with opposing LR slides at the minimum. The comfort from the space they provide is incalculable. I can also tell you from experience that a 25' trailer with no slides and 2 children gets way old, way fast; sitting in a corner waiting while one, then the other wanders down the only aisle so you can get to the bedroom, kitchen or bathroom.....:nonono:

Think about that bigger truck and trailer....it's only money and after all....you're looking at retirement!!!:D

[Bolo4u]

Well, to be fair, this started as the wife wanting a restored Scotty or Shasta. A few years ago we went to a flea market in Dublin, NH where everyone was showing these off in kind of a mini "show". Then she decided she wanted a full bath, full kitchen, etc. So the target moved.

At the time we bought the truck, we went to the local chain dealer (not Camping World) where the salesman, very responsibly, referred us to a Grey Wolf 26DJSE, at about 7000 GVWR and around 4700 dry. This is still an option, but I was worried about quality of these things in my research. So we started looking a bigger units, with more options, slides (Grey Wolf had no slides), better quality, etc. an we ended up with this issue.

So, probably back to the original result, smaller, no slides, etc.

And the search continues.
Good on the on the sales person being responsible and pointing you to a safe combo, unlike other locations where you may have left towing a Montana 5th wheel.

[Sambucus]

Thank you Sourdough (I think). You have given me much to think about.

[sourdough]

Thank you Sourdough (I think). You have given me much to think about.

My only intention is to help, pose questions, post experiences and opinions from those situations that hopefully generate questions or open new possibilities for anyone looking to "get into the RV" lifestyle. In the old days (70s or so) it truly was..."I got a truck, I can pull most anything". I, and others, did so many things pulling so much stuff that probably should have killed me....but didn't.

Now, we have so many ways of knowing all the limitations, the vehicles are so advanced, the trailers are now so BIG....it's no longer about "can my truck PULL it" - they all can because the powertrains are so advanced...to PULL. CARRYING (supporting) the weight of is the weak point for all 1/2 tons and any other truck that one wishes to overload. CARRYING is the point; the weakness; the danger. Manufacturers, IMO, do everything they can to blur that distinction to sell trucks (1/2 ton towable etc.) and thereby put innocent, unknowledgeable folks in danger; again, IMO. The only stopgap, to me, is trying to share information with potential owners that point out the disparities between "advertisements" and "real life". Unfortunately the only solution is the potential buyer doing his own due diligence based on knowledge; that doesn't happen in most cases and is sad. In that case, you (others) have these forums where folks try to help as best they can (and they have taught me TONS over the years).

[Sambucus]

Sourdough, I am very grateful that technology allows me to draw on the experience of others. Spoke to the wife last night about 239ML or Apex Nano. New plan is to sell whatever we have to a daughter in a few years, upgrade truck and go bigger. In the mean time, have fun and gain experience.

Thinking about it though, even those smaller rigs might be OK for just the two of us on "escape winter" trips to AZ or to visit family in Utah. So still plenty of options, to be determined by experience.

Many thanks to you and the others for your guidance. It is greatly appreciated.

[RWRiley]

I purchased a 2019 Silverado 1500 CC SB with a tow package, rated 9500 lbs towing.

5.3 liter with 3.42 (I think). Combined GVW 15000 lbs, truck GVWR is 7100. Max hitch is listed at 960. Max Payload is 2095


When you say tow package, are you talking about the "Max Trailer Pack" option ? If so - your capacities might be higher than you listed. With Max Trailer Pack GCWR=16,800, Max Trailer Weight (I know, I know) = 11,300. I don't have GVWR, but it might be a little higher than you listed. My 2019 Tahoe (with Max Trailer Pack) is 7,300.

Here is where I'm getting the above information:

https://www.chevrolet.com/content/dam/chevrolet/na/us/english/index/shopping-tools/download-catalog/02-pdf/2019-chevrolet-trailering-guide.pdf

If you have only the Trailering Equipment package None of the above applies :)

Also - I see a lot of comments about 1/2 ton trucks not being real tow vehicles, and I don't agree. I'm on my 3rd Tahoe (1/2 Ton) and have pulled trailers with all of them with no major mechanical problems or incidents. I have always paid attention to the weight capacity numbers the Chevy engineers specify, and make sure I have a margin of error. I agree that Max Trailer weight is about useless.

[Bolo4u]

When you say tow package, are you talking about the "Max Trailer Pack" option ? If so - your capacities might be higher than you listed. With Max Trailer Pack GVWR=16,800, Max Trailer Weight (I know, I know) = 11,300. I don't have GVWR, but it might be a little higher than you listed. My 2019 Tahoe (with Max Trailer Pack) is 7,300.

Here is where I'm getting the above information:

https://www.chevrolet.com/content/dam/chevrolet/na/us/english/index/shopping-tools/download-catalog/02-pdf/2019-chevrolet-trailering-guide.pdf

Also - I see a lot of comments about 1/2 ton trucks not being real tow vehicles, and I don't agree. I'm on my 3rd Tahoe (1/2 Ton) and have pulled trailers with all of them with no major mechanical problems or incidents. I have always paid attention to the weight capacity numbers the Chevy engineers specify, and make sure I have a margin of error. I agree that Max Trailer weight is about useless.

In the section I highlighted, are you referring to the GCWR for what you're trying to convey? If so that is very different than a GVWR for a vehicle or trailer, and people who aren't as familiar as others weight ratings for either their TV, trailer or the combined can really get confused even further.

[RWRiley]

In the section I highlighted, are you referring to the GCWR for what you're trying to convey? If so that is very different than a GVWR for a vehicle or trailer, and people who aren't as familiar as others weight ratings for either their TV, trailer or the combined can really get confused even further.

You are correct, My Bad. s/b GCWR. I will go fix original post. Thanks.

[vancouverbrian]

I just retired and was a professional driver. I also over analyze the numbers when it comes to trucks and driving. A really big limit when it comes to towing is payload. Your truck sounds like at its limits and when I was analyzing my purchase, I decided that I was better to buy a 1 ton truck and have lots of payload. The towing numbers came up a bit but it allowed me to then go to a fifth wheel and when towing, it should tow better. Also, the truck itself is bigger, stronger, and capable of stopping better because of bigger brakes. For safety, I thought bigger was better. I then purchased a little bigger trailer (11,000lbs GVW, 9000lbs empty). And I think I will never have to upgrade the trailer. I researched the trailer and knew about what I was going to buy before I purchased the truck. Good luck on your journey.

[falcondan95705]

Do yourself a favor, buy the biggest baddest tow vehicle, then dont think about it..

[RickReichert]

Reading through the posts, I didn't see anyone mention actually weighing your new truck. My advice is to fill the gas tank, load the truck up with DW, grandkids, camping gear, etc. Take it to a public scale and weigh the front axle, both axles, and rear axle. This will give you a real-world starting point to see how much travel trailer your truck can safely pull. Typically our trucks run out of GCWR (truck load carrying capacity) long before they hit the GCVWR (max combined weight of truck and trailer). Others here have talked about trailer hitch,equalizer bars, and trailer tongue weight. I would estimate that actual trailer tongue weight is 50% higher than the manufacturer specifies, due to batteries, propane, stuff in the storage compartment, clothes in the closets, stuff under the bed, etc., etc.

Good luck in your search and safe travels!

[Dboland9]

Don’t forget that engines lose some of their power at higher elevations due to less oxygen in the air. What may work nicely at sea level could be problematic in the mountains. Get a bigger tow vehicle if you are going to spend time in the Rockies

[vancouverbrian]

Reading through the posts, I didn't see anyone mention actually weighing your new truck. My advice is to fill the gas tank, load the truck up with DW, grandkids, camping gear, etc. Take it to a public scale and weigh the front axle, both axles, and rear axle. This will give you a real-world starting point to see how much travel trailer your truck can safely pull. Typically our trucks run out of GCWR (truck load carrying capacity) long before they hit the GCVWR (max combined weight of truck and trailer). Others here have talked about trailer hitch,equalizer bars, and trailer tongue weight. I would estimate that actual trailer tongue weight is 50% higher than the manufacturer specifies, due to batteries, propane, stuff in the storage compartment, clothes in the closets, stuff under the bed, etc., etc.

Good luck in your search and safe travels!

If you read the original post, this newbie has purchased his vehicle and while he has narrowed down his trailer, he is concerned that it might not be within his tow vehicle towing specs and is asking our opinion. It is pretty hard to do a real world test with a trailer he does not have. I am just saying.

[ND1C]

The Gear ratio will be the problem with that set up. Look at the towing specs of the the same truck with a 3:73 or a 4:10 huge difference.

[RickReichert]

If you read the original post, this newbie has purchased his vehicle and while he has narrowed down his trailer, he is concerned that it might not be within his tow vehicle towing specs and is asking our opinion. It is pretty hard to do a real world test with a trailer he does not have. I am just saying.
And if you read my post, I'm suggesting that he weigh his fully-loaded truck. :-)

[vancouverbrian]

LOL. You got me. He would get the real world number of his truck. I don't think the real world number of his truck is the problem. Adding passengers and gas is not the unknown number but it would be exact. The correct answer is to purchase the trailer first and buy the truck that works with that trailer. And some would suggest buying more truck than needed in case you want to move up in size of trailer. But this way he is severely limited in his options. I would suggest that the weight of the trailer on his payload is going to be the issue. While the estimated number is 15 to 25% of the loaded trailer, those that I have seen do the real world number, show their trailers at 23%. But it is possible to be lower if no water, going out for a weekend and not carrying as much stuff as a full time or snow bird will take with them. I cannot argue that taking the truck loaded to the scale will tell you exactly what is remaining. But will not help with how much the trailer weighs nor how much is on the truck.

[RickReichert]

LOL. You got me. He would get the real world number of his truck. I don't think the real world number of his truck is the problem. Adding passengers and gas is not the unknown number but it would be exact. The correct answer is to purchase the trailer first and buy the truck that works with that trailer. And some would suggest buying more truck than needed in case you want to move up in size of trailer. But this way he is severely limited in his options. I would suggest that the weight of the trailer on his payload is going to be the issue. While the estimated number is 15 to 25% of the loaded trailer, those that I have seen do the real world number, show their trailers at 23%. But it is possible to be lower if no water, going out for a weekend and not carrying as much stuff as a full time or snow bird will take with them. I cannot argue that taking the truck loaded to the scale will tell you exactly what is remaining. But will not help with how much the trailer weighs nor how much is on the truck.
True. I got the impression that he wanted to keep the truck he has, and so should at least know how much real world capacity the truck has left for trailer tongue weight. I"m thinking he needs to be looking at a lot smaller trailer if he wants to keep the truck he has and still be safe.

[vancouverbrian]

I agree with you. If it was me, I would relook at what he wants. And if he thinks he wants bigger or even with the trailer he says he is looking at, trade the present truck in and buy bigger/better. But if he does this, research and maybe purchase the trailer first. And he can do this while he is working and before he retires in case he needs to finance anything. Or he can wait and save up the money and buy it all right. But this is his journey and all we can do is add our 2 cents and try to focus on the things that are important. Good luck.

[P&DZ]

Hello Sambucus,
Lots of great advice and knowledge on this forum. I am also an engineer and lived in the beautiful state of NH for many years before moving to CO. I have nearly an identical GMC version of your TV. Our Cougar 21RBSWE is 5300# dry and 7200# GVW, 25’ length. We travel pretty light with just me and the DW in an otherwise empty TV and TT at approx 6300# scale weight. My experience has been I would not tow anything heavier or longer with my TV.

[wiredgeorge]

Also, subtract from your payload numbers anything that will be carried in the truck, like people/pets, fuel, stuff carried in the bed...
Using the numbrs John gave you for the calcs is the realistic starting point.
IMO, a 150 size truck is a little on the lean side for a 29' trailer. You will likely find the towing experience "challenging" with that combo.

I think the 2950BH GT is closer to 34' than 28'.

[FBO Cookie Monster]

Also an ( non practicing ) engineer.
It really this easy to get a good estimate of the trailer you can bumper pull.
Open drivers door and get payload number.
From that number, subtract you, wife, dogs, kids, hitch, groceries, generator, cords, fuel for generator, belly button lint, everything in or on truck. Take the new number, and divide by .13. This will be the approximate MAX LOADED weight of a trailer you can attach to your truck without busting the payload number. Divide by .18 if you start looking at “ half ton towable” fifth wheels.

[falcondan95705]

Our dually ram cummins with 2 inside, hitch hits the scales at 9000.. gvwr is 14000..dont take much to push a 3/4 or one ton srw truck over..

[Local150]

I loved how you phrased this: 'get one that you like.'
I'll ask before Danny or one of the 'others' do: Get an RV or get a grandchild that you like...:D
At times, both are hard to find....:eek:
Passageway got my sides aching

[FordFella]

Since everyone is on the subject of towing, I thought I would submit my specs for opinion...


I have a 2016 F150 4x4 crew cab with 3.73 axle ratio. The limits are:
GVWR: 6350
GCVWR: 12,200
Payload: 1550
Towing capacity: 7100


I'm looking at a travel trailer that is about 4500 dry weight, and want to account for putting about 1300 lbs of stuff in it for a total of 5800 lbs. Since the specs for the trailer dry give a hitch weight of about 450 lbs, it seems to be right at 10%, giving me a new loaded hitch weight of 580 pounds. So...


For me, my wife, daughter, and miscellaneous I'm allocating: 600 lbs
Hitch weight: 580 lbs
Weight dist hitch: 100 lbs
Total payload: 1280 lbs (270 lbs to spare)


Trailer is 5800 lbs with a 7100 lbs capacity, so I'm only using about 82% of capacity.


And, I should be well under my GCVWR.


I spoke to the mechanics at my local ford dealer about this, and they said the truck should have no problem and that ford is very conservative with its posted numbers because they don't want a lawsuit. The mechanics actually said my truck should tow 9000 lbs no problem. I tend to have faith in these guys because I have been using this dealership for all my truck needs and these are the mechanics that have been there for years and haven't fed me BS before.


So, opinions? Does this setup look OK, or do we have a problem? I'm a noob, too, and want to learn...

[JRTJH]

.... Since the specs for the trailer dry give a hitch weight of about 450 lbs, it seems to be right at 10%, giving me a new loaded hitch weight of 580 pounds. So...

There's a little bit of "what they don't tell you" involved in Keystone's advertising and what you're interpreting....

The dry hitch weight does not include propane (only the tanks are weighed as it leaves the factory) and there is no battery included in that 450 pound tongue weight. So, in reality, add 60 pounds for propane (2x30 pound tanks) and 50 pounds for the battery and box. That will add 110 pounds to the tongue weight making it 560 (empty). 560 is 12.5% of 4500, so that's going to affect your "final numbers crunch" a bit.

I prefer to "err on the side of caution" so I always suggest that the tongue weight will be somewhere between 11-15% of the total trailer weight. Add the hitch weight to that to get the estimated weight that's going to be on your truck's receiver. Why 11-15%? every rig will tow differently based on multiple factors ranging from distance from the rear axle to the hitch ball, distance from the hitch ball to the trailer axles, height of the hitch, wheelbase of the tow vehicle, axle spread distance on the trailer to name a few things that are unique to each rig and different from rig to rig. So, a trailer that tows well at 11% behind a GM 1500 may to better at 12% behind a GM 2500 and may not tow well until the cargo is adjusted to get 14% behind a RAM and it may not tow well until 15 or 16% behind a short wheelbase F150 but tows superbly at 10% behind a long wheelbase F150.... Each rig has its unique "blend" to make it tow the best. So, it's better to "estimate the range and try to stay within the highest and lowest so you have some flexibility when you finally hitch your rig and start adjusting for the best tow conditions.... I hope that makes some sense.....

[sourdough]

FordFella;

Don't go with what you "think" you'll have; go with the gvw of the trailer. Why? You are carrying a wife and daughter...going "light" will quickly go away unless the only thing you ever do is throw an armful of stuff in on Friday evening and come back Sunday afternoon.

For the truck you allocate 600lbs. for you, DW and daughter AND all the misc? After you put in the bbq pit, tables, jacks, tools, bicycle, toys etc.....whoops! That alone just ate up the 600lbs +. Or, leave DW, daughter, toys or some other things that you really wanted to have to enjoy camping - btdt. Little one ain't gonna be happy because dad leaves all her stuff at home because..."we can't carry it". btdt too.

7100gvw on the trailer would give you 852 on the tongue (12%)...real life. Add hitch - 125 = 977. Yes, I know you won't "go there", but, most do. Look at THAT number.

You have a 2016 Ford F150, Crew Cab 4x4... My last Ram 1500 CC 4x4 weighed in right at 5300 lbs. Yours will be close - maybe a little less, but close. Take that then your gvw of 6350 which would leave you a REAL payload of 1050. The numbers you posted makes your truck weight come in at 4800...even. I'm highly skeptical of that.

You are taking the route so many do; rationalize the lightest weights you can imagine to make the truck work. Buy it, it isn't pleasant...in fact dangerous, figure a way to get bigger truck (more debt) and keep trying to make it work.

IMO you are doing a super, smart thing to ask questions about a combo BEFORE you've dug the hole - Congrats! The numbers can be confusing, aggravating and disappointing if you have preconceived ideas of what you want. They are usually an eye opener.

I would highly suggest, particularly with a kiddo, that you 1) only consider the gvw of anything you look at, 2) figure no less than 12% for tongue weight for a bumper pull, 3) know that with a growing child anything you think of now is only going to get bigger and heavier, 4) always leave a minimum 10% cushion between your actual load and your max load limits and 5) ALWAYS remember that you, dad, are the one tasked with the safety of mom and your child. With those things in mind you should always err on the side of safety. Oh, and that "towing capacity" number you posted? That's fairyland stuff so never think of it again.

I hope you find the perfect match for the family. My post is meant to point out some things, not discourage you. You have done one of the most important things you could do by asking first. There are many, many knowledgeable, long time towing folks on here that are willing, and want, to help you find the perfect answer for you and your family.

[FlyingAroundRV]

Sambucus (http://www.keystoneforums.com/forums/member.php?u=31446)...
You say you started out looking at little Scotty & Shasta type trailers, often referred to as "Canned Hams." We have one of those we pull with our old Bronco for hunting, fishing, and campouts.
I've read, on this thread, that bigger is better. That's just not so! Bigger can be more restrictive. We kept our little 15' camp trailer because we found that our new 26' travel trailer was too big to get into many state and national park camp spots. You need to keep that in mind, especially if you plan to have grandchildren along.
Beauty as with trailer size is in the eye of the beholder. At our last CG we were next to a couple who had a canned ham trailer. They loved it, it was perfect for their needs. Next to our 30'TT it looked like a shoe box to me. The thing was so small, I couldn't imagine how you would sleep in it, in any position other than the foetal position, but there you go.
I like to be able to change my mind inside the trailer.:hide:

[GMcKenzie]

More on the tongue weight.

Brochure for my trailer lists a dry weight of 6762 and a tongue weight of 630.

Actual weight the last time I had it on a scale was a loaded of 8,200 (right at GVW) and a tongue weight of 1040 (12.6%). So I went from under 10% brochure setup to a reasonable number.

I'd base the tongue on 12.5% of gross.

[Ken / Claudia]

Fordfellla,
Those mechanics giving you advice are partly right. Ford does not want lawsuits so they post limits. So, if you go over them who is responsible if the vehicle is damaged, Ford, the mechanics or you. I think we all say you. What if your involved in any crash, your fault or not. Police conduct an investigation (something I have done hundreds of times, likely more) What if the cause or contributing factor is the vehicle being overloaded or improperly loaded. Again will Ford say they will stand behind you when you choose to ignore the posted vehicles limits. Best yet, this suggestion has never been followed, but I will ask it again. Talk to your insurance agent. Tell him you might be overloading the truck when towing a RV. Ask how much overloading do they find is OK.
I agree with the mechanics there is a safety factor built into every posted limit maybe on everything we have. Police,inspectors, insurance investigators go with what the vehicle posted not by mechanics opinions.

[travelin texans]

Fore nor any of the vehicle makers if truly concerned for your safety should not post a max tow weight as most will exceed the payload long before reaching the max tow. They should however post in bold type the max payload somewhere obvious on each truck with what that includes.
RV makers should not post dry weights or pin/tongue weights.
Both tow weight & dry RV weights are completely useless in determining what's needed or necessary.

[blubuckaroo]

Both tow weight & dry RV weights are completely useless in determining what's needed or necessary.

I disagree.
The GVWR of a trailer is the combined weight of the trailer and load.
All our loads are different, and different every day.
However, only the dry weight is constant.
The only way you can compare apples to apples is to use the dry weight.
Yes, you have to be prudent and add up the weight of your load.
Yes, you have to know the weight of a gallon of water, propane, passengers, and all their stuff. You add that to the dry weight and that's what you're towing.
You should never assume, that just because your vehicle is rated to tow the GVWR of the trailer, that the trailer is actually within that rating.

[travelin texans]

The dry weight posted on a tag inside every RV tells you only 1 thing 1 time, that's what it weighed when it rolled off the assembly line with no propane, only the bottles, no battery & never an ounce of liquid of any kind on board, it will NEVER weigh that EVER again. It will be of absolutely no help for the buyer in determining a suitable tv. The buyer should only be using the gross weight to determine percentages for tongue/pin weights. Better to figure too high than too low!
As max truck tow weights, a flat bed trailer loaded to 10k pounds of cement blocks with the load not stacked above the truck bed is totally different than towing a 10k rv with the aerodynamics of a gigantic one of the cement blocks. If they want really want to give helpful info show hauling the blocks then a RV of the same weight both in a 30 mph crosswind & see if there's a difference.

[pmck]

Great information Sourdough.

[sourdough]

"I spoke to the mechanics at my local ford dealer about this, and they said the truck should have no problem and that ford is very conservative with its posted numbers because they don't want a lawsuit. The mechanics actually said my truck should tow 9000 lbs no problem. I tend to have faith in these guys because I have been using this dealership for all my truck needs and these are the mechanics that have been there for years and haven't fed me BS before."


FordFella, I'm sorry but I forgot to address this portion of your post.

I've been in lots of shops, known lots of mechanics, and, those that I know/knew and trust(ed) knew lots of things I needed them to know about engine/drivetrain/tranny etc.

I suspect that those "experts" when questioned about their experience of "towing"; what trailer, what size, how heavy, towed with what, weights etc. - that will leave about 90% of them out of the equation. Opinions from a "trusted" mechanic if truck A can pull 9000 lbs.? They go by Ford's publications stating max tow weight...they know nothing else. So, IMO, like the stated "max tow rating" - forget that conversation and focus on real life.

[sourdough]

That one time info you're talking about is very important information. The GVW alleviates you of no responsibility. You must still keep the trailer under that GVWR. So how can you know you're legal?
The only way is to add to the dry weight, or have your trailer weighed every day.
The dry weight is your base line.


I'm not sure what you are trying to say; Danny is correct. The dry weight is the "constant"? Very important information? How so?

The dry weight posted is of the trailer as it rolled off the assembly line. It came to the dealer, had propane tanks filled, batteries installed, 2nd AC?, upgraded furniture/appliances/hardware etc. etc.? Now, where did that "very important" dry weight go? Into oblivion - never to mean anything again.

GVW alleviates you of responsibility? Trailer GVW and GVWR are the same thing, just leaves off the "rating" word. How do you know you're legal? A scale...period.

All loads are different every day? Yes they are if you do a lot of variable things. Mine doesn't change more than 100lbs., usually much less - we stay loaded except for food - and that is usually pretty much the same (we're boring). And again, the dry weight is not "constant", it doesn't exist any longer.

You need to know the "load". Do you throw all your stuff on a big scale somewhere every time you load so you know the exact weight of the items you are loading? No. Can you accurately assess the weight of that pile of items by looking at them? No. So then, how do you know if you are at GVW (GVWR), above or below?.....a scale.

Just pointing out that your explanation/response doesn't seem to fly IMO.

[travelin texans]

So, you're saying you just figure your GVWR is going to cover you?
I could never trust that. I have to know what the weight actually is.

Head to the scales, that's the only sure way you will know. Not to exceed the GVWR, GVW, gross weight, however you want to call it, posted on the tag on the drivers side tag with the vin#. With that scaled weight if you want subtract that dry weight posted in a cabinet somewhere from your weight ticket to have a weight of what you & the dealer have added to the RV.

[sourdough]

[QUOTE=blubuckaroo;358289]So, you're saying you just figure your GVWR is going to cover you?
I could never trust that. I have to know what the weight actually is.[/QUOTE

I'm not sure if you just don't understand how weights work, scales or posted weights on various "things".

I'm not sure why you keep stating that someone will "figure" that the "gvwr" is going to cover them....from what? The gvw/gvwr is there to give you a guide to what you can or cannot have in the TV or RV. How do you know that? A scale. You state in this comment that you "have to know what the weight actually is" but, on your previous post you indicated you didn't want to go to a scale to find out what you actually weighed.

Back to your premise that the unloaded weight is the only constant....that is purely....wrong.

[FordFella]

A lot of good information and perspectives here...


So, it seems the majority feels that since these trailers are so tall and don't tow like a "normal" load, one should tow well under max capabilities.


There's another trailer I was looking at; it is a very similar layout, much lighter weight, just with a few less amenities (nothing that I think is crucial).


Dry weight: 3300 lbs
Dry hitch weight: 465 lbs

GVWR: 4865 lbs
Length: 22'6"


From what I gather from this forum, I would think this should be a relatively safe set up...

[Northofu1]

At the end of the day, we've all made mistakes or errors in judgement. Lots of folks learn from them, seek the info necessary and move on. Some folks however don't, they make Youtube videos, fail army videos, police and news reports.
C'est la vie :)

[Sarge2]

I have a 2020 Passport 2600BH and tow it currently with my F150... It's a lariat package 5.4 Triton engine with Heavy duty tow package 3.73 rear axle oil and trans coolers... the Trailer is 5400 dry with 650 tongue weight...(means little) I'm in the process of looking for another truck... although it tows it "ok"... it surely knows it's there... I've not encountered any large grades so far but even slight inclines have this thing downshifting like crazy... in my opinion my truck is not appropriate for any long hauling of my trailer.... JMHO
Take it for what it's worth... been there done that looking for a new heavier duty truck...

[travelin texans]

[QUOTE=sourdough;358295]

When I said "cover you" I meant in the event of an accident, if your rig is found to be improperly loaded by the MAIT Team, you won't be covered by the rated GVWR.
This is serious stuff.
What I was trying to get across is that unless you have your trailer weighed, the only way to be sure about the loaded weight is to take the dry weight and add everything loaded onto the vehicle.

If you have an accident that investigation team won't ask you what your dry weight is/was or how much crap you loaded into it, they will look on the RV tag at the GVWR printed on that tag, if over that weight it's your a##.
When you 1st walked into your particular RV on the dealers lot to look, not buy, that dry weight had already been added to 500 pounds or more by the dealer adding battery/batteries, water, propane or any option the dealer may have added, therefore that posted dry weight before you ever set foot in it is no longer of any use to anyone, now just a random number with no significance.
Apparently this discussion will never end as some are having trouble understanding, but for those looking to buy trucks able to handle your particular RV, don't pay any attention to dry weights for the RV or pin/hitch weights, that number will only get you something less than needed.

[blubuckaroo]

[QUOTE=blubuckaroo;358330]

If you have an accident that investigation team won't ask you what your dry weight is/was or how much crap you loaded into it, they will look on the RV tag at the GVWR printed on that tag, if over that weight it's your a##.
When you 1st walked into your particular RV on the dealers lot to look, not buy, that dry weight had already been added to 500 pounds or more by the dealer adding battery/batteries, water, propane or any option the dealer may have added, therefore that posted dry weight before you ever set foot in it is no longer of any use to anyone, now just a random number with no significance.
Apparently this discussion will never end as some are having trouble understanding, but for those looking to buy trucks able to handle your particular RV, don't pay any attention to dry weights for the RV or pin/hitch weights, that number will only get you something less than needed.

So, let me ask then...
How much does your trailer weigh?
You can't possibly know unless you either weigh it, or add the weight of the load (batteries, water, propane, better mattress, and all your stuff) to the dry weight on the sticker. In our case we even had to add the weight difference of the dealer installed upgraded steps.
Unless you've done either of these, you're only guessing.

[JRTJH]

[QUOTE=travelin texans;358347]

So, let me ask then...
How much does your trailer weigh?
You can't possibly know unless you either weigh it, or add the weight of the load (batteries, water, propane, better mattress, and all your stuff) to the dry weight on the sticker. In our case we even had to add the weight difference of the dealer installed upgraded steps.
Unless you've done either of these, you're only guessing.

Dry weight/shipping weight. Once it's weighed and then "changed by additions" it's no longer a valid measurement (other than a "used to be").

I "used to be 18 years old".... Does that have any bearing (at all) on my current age, hair color, weight, health status, license status or eye color? Same with "shipping weight of an RV"......

[travelin texans]

[QUOTE=travelin texans;358347]

So, let me ask then...
How much does your trailer weigh?
You can't possibly know unless you either weigh it, or add the weight of the load (batteries, water, propane, better mattress, and all your stuff) to the dry weight on the sticker. In our case we even had to add the weight difference of the dealer installed upgraded steps.
Unless you've done either of these, you're only guessing.

I knew exactly what my 5th wheel weighed!!
The GVWR was 16.5k, couldn't tell you what the dry weight was & didn't care, after loading for full-time, traveled for about 6 months, adjusted what was/was not needed, I had it weighed at a park that offered the Smart Weigh (every wheel on every axle truck & trailer separately) & weighed 16525 pounds. Also weighed twice at different times at Cat scales & weighed in at within 50 pounds+/- of the gross each time. Funny thing, never once did they look at or ask what my dry weight was at either weigh in.
If your adding weight of items you've loaded, don't know how you would, to your dry weight, you're adding to a fictious number, then you still have no idea of what your weight is, until you head to the scales, you could easily be off by 500-1000 pounds.