Choosing a 5er?

[Twisties]

We prefer (we think, never having done any of this before):

<= 14,000 GVWR (I think TV will be rated for more... looking at the 1 tons, and yes we are aware of payload issues)
<=12'6" tall, <=12'0" is better
King bed
4-season
Television directly opposite seating for straight on view
Good kitchen (island designs are nice) - usable amount of counter-top, usable oven
About 2016-2017? Budget is $20-$30k. Might go over that if sufficiently motivated, but prefer not.

I made a list of current models that meet our preferences, but have trouble tracking them back into prior years, with model numbers constantly in flux.

Some examples we think we like are Cougar 361RLW, Grand Design Reflection 318RST, Crossroads Volante VL325RL, Dutchmen Astoria 3173RLP and Atlas 3172RLKB, Coachmen Chaparell 336TSIK.

The questions are:

What models should we look at that would be a few years older and within our budget, and

Are any of these better/worse built or a better brand than the others?

[Twisties]

Use is full-timing for about a year, 18 months. Climate could include significant winter weather. Just the two of us, no pets. I do use a cpap that requires pure sine voltage, or 24 vdc. Considering a lot of boondocking.

[fjr vfr]

Bear in mind there is no such thing as a perfect trailer. You will for sure have to compromise something. You might make a list of priorities, like 1 through 10 as to what is the most important for you and what you can live without. That may help to narrow it down. You might go to RV Trader online and just brows though some of the listing to get a better idea of models.

Good Luck. :)

[Frank G]

Do you realize how much energy you will need to survive a cold winter day, every day. Boondocking?

[chuckster57]

One concern with full timing "extended stay" is warranty concerns, check with the manufacturer NOT THE DEALER about exclusions. I know that Grand Designs doesn't care if your staying in it for an extended period of time. I would look at some serious solar and an inverter for your cpap machine. Its not going to be cheap to start but it should be worth it in the end.

[Twisties]

Do you realize how much energy you will need to survive a cold winter day, every day. Boondocking?

No. Please educate me.

[Twisties]

One concern with full timing "extended stay" is warranty concerns, check with the manufacturer NOT THE DEALER about exclusions. I know that Grand Designs doesn't care if your staying in it for an extended period of time. I would look at some serious solar and an inverter for your cpap machine. Its not going to be cheap to start but it should be worth it in the end.

I have a pure sine inverter that I use when car camping from the truck battery. I was just hoping to be able to plug into a 110 v outlet in the rv... but reading up I see some models don't have a built in inverter, or if they do it might not be pure sine.

Since we are thinking mostly of a 2016-2017 model year, I guess there will be no warranty to worry about... although that Cougar 361RLW is advertised new at some very tempting prices...

[Twisties]

We would probably add some solar (200W?) and/or pick up a couple of freestanding generators.

[chuckster57]

I would figure on at least 400W of solar and a bank of batteries. 6V GC batteries will last longer but take longer to charge. I have installed a charger/inverter system in a reflection that had 200W of charging and 200W of inverting. When I got done, 1/2 of the breaker panel was fed by either the shore cord or the inverter. You would just have to figure out which half had the outlet in the bedroom. It was a kit from "GoPower" if I remember right but the customer didn't have me install solar at the same time. IIRC I installed the inverter/charger and 6 GC batteries.

[Frank G]

No. Please educate me.

For starters a 35,000 BTU furnace will run about 18 hours on a 30# tank, so you might get a day out of a tank. That's $25.00 a day Now we need a generator running 24/7, I'll ball park that at 10 gal/day that's another $30.00/day. In real cold weather it can be difficult to pull propane from the tank.

You never provided the winter conditions you expect to deal with so it is hard to provide a lot of detail.

[JRTJH]

No. Please educate me.

RV's are built with 2" aluminum frame walls and foam insulation (R-7-9 typically), single pane windows (R-1) and rubber seals on all the slides (air leaks abound). Floors are typically "2 chamber" construction, the top "chamber" contains the floor structure, 2" of foam or spun fiberglass insulation, heat ducting and wrapped with a weather seal (Darco wrap) to "waterproof" the floor. The "bottom chamber" contains the waste water tanks and trailer frame structure. It's usually "partly heated" by a small duct from the furnace and "sealed" with a sheet of 3/8" coroplast (corrugated plastic). Most floors have a layer of bubblewrap to further insulate the structure. Most RV floors "advertise R20-40" insulation properties and in reality "might provide" R15 (my guess, not substantiated by research).

The ceiling/roof structure is advertised as R20-50 depending on brand and "aggressiveness of the marketing department". In reality, there is probably more insulation in the ceiling than in the floors or sidewalls, but remember that there's also A/C ducting in the ceiling. That "ducting" is "open space, not insulated space, so if the ceiling is 6" thick with 3" of duct runs through the middle 18", in reality, there's not 6" of insulation in the area where the ducts are installed, there's 3" of insulation and when the sun shines on the roof or when the outside "blizzard" cold absorbs the heat from the ceiling, there's a 3" gap of "non-insulated space" right down the middle of the RV roof.

So, as for "winter energy consumption" or "heat loss through minimally insulated structures" most RV's are not a lot better than a quality tent when it comes to "saving energy".... Forget spending a week in a campground without making substantial investments in propane/electricity to keep the thing warm and comfortable.....

As for maintaining mobility with an RV (moving from campground to campground) during the winter, that usually eliminates the ability to put a windblock around the perimeter to keep the underside warm. Without that windblock, you'll nearly double your energy use to maintain the same degree of "inside comfort". Installing, removing, storing, reinstalling such a windblock isn't something most people are willing to do for a one or two week stay, then tear it down and move to reinstall it for another week or so. That means the most "vital" of all the energy savings is not "easy to move from campground to campground"....

Winter camping is, for most people, more an "adventure best enjoyed a weekend at a time" rather than a "lifestyle for the entire winter's travel plans"

[travelin texans]

From experience when full-timing "a lot of boondocking" gets old fairly quickly & even quicker in cold/hot temps. As already stated with furnace running it's the biggest LP & 12 volt hog on the RV, you'll need to be close to town to keep LP & gasoline filled regularly.
A "4 season" RV doesn't mean it's designed to be used in very cold temps, it means the underbelly is enclosed with something with a layer of foil bubble wrap, reflectix material, above the covering.
With the summer season you absolutely want 2 air conditioners regardless of length if going anywhere above about 90 degrees. Which also is a problem boondocking, unless you have a huge generator you'll only be able to run 1 ac, which isn't much when it's very hot in a poorly insulated box.
For us boondocking was lots of fun before retirement for a long weekend or a week or 2 vacation, but once "living" in it full-time out in the boonies wasn't as big a thrill.
Living in a couple hundred square feet in the middle of nowhere with limited water & power now doesn't even sound like a good time.
You may be totally different!
Hope all goes well in your search & new adventure.

[sourdough]

IMO here are some realities on your expectations:

You will be hard pressed (very) to find a 5th wheel at less than 14k that is 4 season capable (real 4 season) that is comfortable enough to live in year round.

When speaking of TV and the type of trailer you describe I hope you are referring to 1 ton DRW and not SRW. I am currently looking at replacement 1 ton SRW and limit my trailer size (looking at those as well) to 13k (5th wheel) to allow for not only what will be in the truck but a decent safety margin. Remember, totally disregard that refers to "towing" capacity - it is totally meaningless in the real world. Use the other weight capacities.

I am not aware of a 5th wheel with a height of <12' unless it is very old or very small. Most newer ones with a modern suspension run about 13'6" or thereabouts. My bumper pull is 11'6" for comparison.

All of your kitchen desires will be directly affected by size of trailer. The more trailer, the more kitchen space generally. Obviously some floorplans in the same size trailer give a little more kitchen space but generally it is predicated on the overall space available.

I think you may have to reevaluate the costs you have allocated to get a trailer capable of the things you want. I doubt you will find one in the price range you have set aside.

IMO boondocking and cold winter weather don't mix for more than a couple of days. Staying in an RV 24hrs a day in sub freezing, zero weather is extremely difficult with full hookups much less boondocking. You will have frozen water, frozen LP tanks, frozen sewer dumps....it's no fun. I can't imagine trying to boondock with DW in those conditions. On a hunting trip is one thing, living that way is another - again, IMO. If you spend a lot of time and money you might be able to underpin the unit and insulate all kinds of stuff but....your going to tear it all down in 18 months?

Having never done it I completely understand where you come from but you're contemplating going a pretty extreme route and I'm 'afeared that reality and the novelty of the idea may bump heads.

[JRTJH]

No. Please educate me.

I just had another thought, the comparison of costs:

I'd suspect that if you try to live in an RV for a winter in extremely cold weather, you'll probably spend as much for propane and electricity as you would on a comparably sized (300-400 sq/ft) motel suite/efficiency apartment. Many places rent "weekly suites" for about the price you'll pay for propane for an RV in 10F temps. Not to mention that most "weekly suites" have "unlimited hot water".....

[Twisties]

For starters a 35,000 BTU furnace will run about 18 hours on a 30# tank, so you might get a day out of a tank. That's $25.00 a day Now we need a generator running 24/7, I'll ball park that at 10 gal/day that's another $30.00/day. In real cold weather it can be difficult to pull propane from the tank.

You never provided the winter conditions you expect to deal with so it is hard to provide a lot of detail.

Thanks! That's a reality check, for sure.

[Twisties]

Thanks everyone for the reality check. We had considered efficiency apts/hotels with kitchenettes but some of the areas we want to be don't have any.

One locality has an rv park that offers $350/mo plus electricity. The average high in January is 51 F, but the avg low is 23 F. I am listening, and grateful for your informative comments and what I am hearing is that electricity might cost a real bundle, and running on propane wouldn't be any better.

Our goal is to experience 4 seasons in each of several communities we are interested in relocating to. It is important for us to stay on our diet, so we need access to a kitchen, and we want to have a little more stuff with us than just traveling in our truck. An RV may not be the way to go... but we have scratched our heads for an alternative.

[sourdough]

If you just want to "experience" different locations why go to the trouble, expense and hardship of lots of boondocking? That, by itself, compounds all of your problems.

We go to see all kinds of places but we put the RV someplace that is comfortable with all the utilities. We then can branch out in the TV and go see/do/experience whatever is there. I know what it's like to freeze sleeping outside in the winter or roast in the summer; I don't need to go anywhere anymore to know what that is going to be like - nor do I want to. If you need an overnite experience in a particular location rent a condo or home (or take a tent) for that and return to the RV for the long haul.

I'm not sure what you are thinking of in terms of expenses. Just remember that RVs are not cheap in any respect nor are they trouble free - you WILL be fixing something. As far as costs staying in an improved site you will have the set monthly fee for the space; 350 - 2000 mo. depending on where you are. Our electricity in the FL panhandle in the winter runs 100-130 mo. depending on the weather. Avg. temps there are about 65 hi and upper 30s for lows. A tank of LP can go as quickly as 4 days or so or last as long as weeks depending on the weather - may be running the furnace non stop or the AC. Tank costs $24.08 to fill.

An RV offers tons of flexibility and opportunity, you just have to know its limitations and stay within those parameters to minimize problems and have the most fun.

I wouldn't rule out an RV just yet. You might share a little more of what it is you hope to accomplish and in what way. There are lots of folks on here that have done most anything and everything that are more than willing to either help you succeed in your quest for an RV or give you real life examples/reasons why it might be a bad idea.

[GHen]

Go-power and Renology both have great worksheets to determine how much battery and solar you need for inverter use and charging. Rather than guessing you need 200watts of solar, you need to calculate backwards from usage.
First, How many amps will you use each day
Second, how many batteries do you need to support usage
Third, how big of an inverter to power your 120v devices.
Last, how many watts of solar needed to charge batteries.

Based on my calculations, I need 400watts solar and 4-6 6volt batteries to do extended Boondocking and not be short on power. Of course, a generator solves a lot of issues.

[travelin texans]

Folks here are only trying to give you a heads up on the "what ifs", in no way trying to discourage you from the RV experience. Myself & the others I believe are informing you as the expense & difficulty of boondocking for extended periods in extreme heat or cold.
Finding a good moderately monthly priced RV park with full hookups will make the experience much more pleasant. An occasional trip to the boonies in spring or fall when the weather is moderate could still be planned with less expense & hardships.

[Stircrazy]

The average high in January is 51 F, but the avg low is 23 F.

that's not bad at all, I camp quite a bit cooler where the highs average around 30. do research and get as good of a 4 season as you can find that meets your requirements. with two of you, you will be able to get a much smaller Rv than some of us which means heating will cost less and will be more comfortable as generally you have the same size furnace heating a smaller space.

as for solar, I wouldn't have anything smaller than 480 watts and 4 good 6v GC batteries a 2000watt inverter. you can buy kits that the dealer just hast to install, but generally you pay more this way unless you can work it into the deal, which is one advantage of going new.

Steve

[ctbruce]

Here's a very rough reply.

1 battery fully charged to run the furnace, water heater and fridge, maybe 6 hours, 12 max, but certainly not a full day.

Maybe a better idea of where you are planning on camping at would help.

You could always use 2 6 volt batteries and may get closer to 24 hours, but in either case you will need several hours of shore power or a generator to recharge them.

Or best yet, go where there are full hookups. That will help eliminate a lot of the issues.

[vancouverbrian]

My 2 cents. Most older trailers do not have the king bed. This is a recent addition to trailers. Many new trailers have this option. Most trailers are not 4 season rated. Does not mean that they cannot be used for all season but manufacturer wont certify. Purchasing used can be difficult. It is hard to find the exact model and year that you are looking for that fits your criteria. Not impossible but will have to look all over the country. And it might not have the options you want. And then you get into condition and price. I found it easier to start fresh with a new trailer with the options I wanted and shop it hard because they can always order it from the factory, but take less profit. Then the condition is new and not worn and plan to keep mine for many years. Good luck on your journey.

[pdaniel]

We are now in RV number 6 having owned travel trailers and one truck camper over the years with our previous RV being a Cougar TT. They all had their positive and negative issues. The Cougar was nice, but, lacked adequate heat. However, we now have a Grand Design Solitude, an RV that Grand Design has advertised as "extended stay" and are quite happy with the RV.

[n1282x]

Drive down here to Arizona and I will get you 180 watt solar panels $400 each. Plus AGM batteries for $50 each...

[n1282x]

Should have said $100 each on the solar panels. I have eight of them on the roof of my Montana 381 and have zero issues with electricity

[itat]

As soon as someone says “4 seasons” and they intend to be in the northwest for the winter, I think of Northwoods Manufacturing since they are closer to true 4 season campers. The winter temps you mentioned are moderate for around these parts but most regular manufacturers like you mentioned do not build a true 4 season camper.

Checkout this model from Northwoods:
https://northwoodmfg.com/arctic-fox-2/arctic-fox-35-5z/

[Phil Saran]

Twisties, you do not mention what size truck you have or are planning on getting, but from the size of 5th wheel you are looking for I would say one ton truck.

As for used vs new, just depends on what you want. My wife wanted one particular model Keystone Cougar 5th wheel (30 RLS) which is 34 feet long, 2 slide outs at rear, one for the closet in bedroom on left. Queen bed. Has a island and a decent sized pantry

Pricing is always fun. Our model was a new model in 2018, could not find any available. So went looking for a 2019. Found quite a few in Colorado (where I live) a few in Utah and also New Mexico. All the dealers were very proud of their $50 K price range. So I started looking farther away and found that in October Camping World in South Dakota does not sell many RV's, but they had that same 5th wheel priced at $38K. A long day trip to their dealer got us the new 5th wheel for $36K plus tax and license.

Buying out of my area has not been a problem for warranty work.

Yes now if the king bed is a deal breaker you will be looking for a bigger rig to get what you want.

Good luck with your hunting.

[vancouverbrian]

Twisties, you do not mention what size truck you have or are planning on getting, but from the size of 5th wheel you are looking for I would say one ton truck.

As for used vs new, just depends on what you want. My wife wanted one particular model Keystone Cougar 5th wheel (30 RLS) which is 34 feet long, 2 slide outs at rear, one for the closet in bedroom on left. Queen bed. Has a island and a decent sized pantry

Pricing is always fun. Our model was a new model in 2018, could not find any available. So went looking for a 2019. Found quite a few in Colorado (where I live) a few in Utah and also New Mexico. All the dealers were very proud of their $50 K price range. So I started looking farther away and found that in October Camping World in South Dakota does not sell many RV's, but they had that same 5th wheel priced at $38K. A long day trip to their dealer got us the new 5th wheel for $36K plus tax and license.

Buying out of my area has not been a problem for warranty work.

Yes now if the king bed is a deal breaker you will be looking for a bigger rig to get what you want.

Good luck with your hunting.

I also liked the Cougar 30RLS and purchased it in Colorado. I saw them being advertised in the South for about $35,000 and an RV dealership in CO matched it. I have been very happy with it and love the layout. I pull it with a 2017 F350 6.2L CCLB SRW.

[skmct]

Tv directly across from seating is not as important as you might think. We had that same thought when first looking. But spend time in the unit as if it was yours . The newer tv mounting brackets have a lot of adjustment. Ours extends and swivels. If you get the separate recliners you can also move them . We have been very comfy watching tv in our Montana hc 318 re which has the rear entertainment. Go to large rv shows and take your time checking things out.

[Roscommon48]

just start looking within your driving distance. that would the best bet.

[Twisties]

Thanks Everyone! We appreciate all of your thoughts.