Floor repair on Bullet

[danf]

I started floor repair on my 2016 248RKS.



It started with water by the door but has grown. The floor is the luan sandwich. Unbelievable construction. The top layer of wood is thin and there is layer of shoebox cardboard glued to the top of it. The wood literally falls apart where moisture is present.



Hard tell currently how extensive damage is. I'm thinking that most of the bottom layer of wood is completely detached from the frame and is hanging there by the barrier material on the bottom.



Looks like passenger side from under the fridge/heater up to under the shower. Bathroom feels solid except for one side of the shower. There is a spot on the drivers side by the slide out. I'm not sure if I have to take out the slide out yet. Rear kitchen corner area looks/feels ok. I'll know more after I pull some of the floor off. Once water gets in the floor, there is no way for it to get out. If it gets in on one side, there are spaces/gaps in the foam it can use to literally run entirely across the camper.

[danf]

After pulling it up some. You can see the spot by the slide out. No mold there, but the wood falls right part. It's a bit strange because the wood is better between this spot and the other side that is rotted.

[danf]

Found my leak. It's a factory defect. The membrane that is under the floor and is supposed to keep water out develops holes because it is pinched between the frame and the flooring. The floor itself is pathetic in the way it is built. It's a good 3-4 feet between some of the aluminum rails. The wood is actually wood with a shoebox cardboard layers. The layers are glued but when the cardboard layers get wet they just disintegrate. The wood+cardboard layers are 1/4" thick.



The whole floor is


vinyl
cardboard
wood
cardboard
aluminum frame with styrofoam in the voids
cardboard
wood
water barrier cloth
trailer frame.



So what has happened is the water barrier cloth has developed holes because it's pinched between the trailer frame and the rest of the floor. Water is sprayed from the wheels up into the space between the frame and floor and since there are hols in the fabric the water gets in. Once the water gets in, it can't get out. So it starts with the entire bottom wood layer delaminating eventually working up to the top layer of wood.



This is a manufacturing defect since there is no protection against this happening. Every bullet trailer is going to have the problem. Since the vinyl covers everything, owners won't know anything is wrong until the upper layer of wood delaminates and the floor gets soft.

[Steveo57]

Been there done that! I would check very carefully for other leaks. I don't know about you but the number of times I tow in the rain is pretty small. Any water intrusion would be probably be small and I think it would have a chance to dry up.

All of the water damage I've seen is from above and it does get trapped in the floor. It stays wet because a leak from above is a steady source of moisture while a leak from underneath would only happen if you are towing in the rain.

Good luck on your repairs. I replaced mine with plywood and sealed it well. Then put down some vinyl planking flooring. Much nicer and sturdier.

[danf]

I sprayed in the wheel well to mimic road spray before I pulled up the bottom layer of wood and the wood got even wetter. Then I pulled off the bottom layer of wood to find standing water on top of the fabric. Then I sprayed again and water just comes up through the holes in the fabric. There are multiple holes along the frame rail. My guess is the fabric is riddled with holes along the entire frame. A few or more hours of towing in constant rain would just saturate the floor.


I have a short video of me spraying in the wheel well, but the system wouldn't let me post it.

[JRTJH]

The wheel wells in most "light/Xlite" trailers are "wrapped in Darco". That "thin poly film" just isn't up to the task of protecting the underlying "cardboard/thin luan" layer that is the bottom of the "sandwich floor construction"

What happens is rocks and road debris gets stuck in the tire tread, then, at highway speeds, those pebbles get slung into the Darco and put "pin-prick holes" in the film. Once that happens, it's only a matter of time until you're towing on a wet road, water saturates the film, migrates through the multiple "pin-prick holes" and, with no way out, sits on the cardboard/luan until it's rotted.

I'm facing the same issue with my Cougar and can feel the "cupping of rotted luan" under the Darco. My solution: 1/4" HDPE sheeting, cut to fit the wheelwell area, sealed with DICOR on all edges. Hopefully the thicker HDPE will protect the wheelwells from rock chips and the area won't be saturated with water (any RV's worst enemy) in the future.

What I think happens is the water gets above the Darco, with no way out, it does "it's damage" and eventually the water dissipates. Then the next "wet towing event" it happens again... It's more an accumulation of small amounts of water that do a little damage, followed by "dry wheelwells" until the next wet tow. Over the years, I think the problem creeps up on us, a little at a time until we have some reason to "actually take a critical look at the wheelwell construction" and by then, it's "OMG LOOK AT THIS!!!!!"

I believe that the way the floor is constructed with "junk materials because they are light" and then wrapped in a layer of Darco that prevents the "bucket from emptying" are the reasons that the "sandwich floor" is doomed to fail, sooner or later in almost every RV that's towed over wet roads. Then, add the real potential of a roof or sidewall leak and that makes "adding water to the bucket (darco underlayer) even more of a problem....

Years ago, RV floors were made of marine plywood. On cheaper trailers, that floor was the underside of the trailer and everything below it was exposed to the road. Back then, the underside of the marine plywood was either painted with Spar Varnish or sprayed with undercoating to seal the wood. That costs money, is heavy, so Darco became the "cheaper, lighter way"... I think that we're going to see a move back to waterproof solid floors. Maybe they won't be marine plywood, but probably a "OSB type, Strand board with waterproof glue as the substrate.

I'd say that almost anything would be better than the current sandwich floor. Foam offers no structural integrity and when you get "right down to the reality"... If we can't walk on a 1/4" OSB roof, how can we walk on a 1/4" luan/cardboard floor ??????

[danf]

I've got to call Keystone and the dealer again to see what they say about warranty. The trailer is a 2016. They probably will just laugh at me and tell me to go away. Then I was going to see how much it would cost to get the floor fixed and evaluate whether to keep it. The entire floor needs to be redone. If it's too much money then I will either scrap it or fix it myself. Unbelievable for a 2016.



If I have to do it myself, my plan was to start at the back. It's a rear kitchen. I think I can take out most of the kitchen leaving the fridge. So that means the heater, the stove, the fuse panel/charger has to come out. I think I could prop up the fridge cabinet so I don't have to remove it. Get that area fixed and put back in place and then do the middle up to the bathroom. There is a slide here so I'm hoping I can fix the flooring without removing it maybe from underneath. Once that is fixed, take out the bathroom and bed frame and replace the floor in the rest of the camper. The front seems firmer, but I really don't know how bad it is up there yet. I need to take off the coroplast.



For a fix I was going to add a whole bunch of new aluminum frame members and lay marine 1/4 plywood. I can't go thicker because of the slide unless there is some play that allows me to go to 3/8 or 1/2 inch. The top seals might allow another 1/8 or 1/4. I don't know how the top of the slide is constructed. It looks like there is an inside and outside rubber seal and nothing else. I might have to move the cables.



I've also thought about using sheet metal instead of wood. I'm debating what to do in the frame voids and underneath. I'm not seeing any real reason to have a bottom sheet of wood.



The other thing is I'm trying to figure out how exactly the walls are attached. Looks like the floor sandwich sits on the trailer frame. With the bottom layer of wood rotted, that means I'm going to have to shim between the trailer frame and the aluminum floor frame. Similarly, it looks like the walls sit on top of the floor including top layer of (now rotted) wood. I'll have to shim the walls too or try to insert the new flooring under the walls.


A lot of work for a 3 year old trailer. I'm apprehensive about putting money in it, since the rest of it is built just as bad. If I do it myself, it's mostly just labor and time (that I don't have).

[Ccrew]

I've got to call Keystone and the dealer again to see what they say about warranty.

Curious how you made out with these calls. Have a 16 month old Bullet with very similar issues

[German Shepherd Guy]

'm facing the same issue with my Cougar and can feel the "cupping of rotted luan" under the Darco. My solution: 1/4" HDPE sheeting, cut to fit the wheelwell area, sealed with DICOR on all edges. Hopefully the thicker HDPE will protect the wheelwells from rock chips and the area won't be saturated with water (any RV's worst enemy) in the future.



Thanks John. I am looking at my wheel wells this week and I think you might be onto something. How are you planning on attaching it?

[slow]

FWIIW: When I first noticed water intrusion and swelling of the bottom layer of floor on the underside of our Passport in our second season, I had no rock damage to the Darco membrane. What I did have is water entry points at nearly every wall tie down stud/nut along each side of the trailer and wheel skirt mounting screw.

My fix since caught early was to slit the Darco at each area that had swelled, and since it was fall, I left the slits open over the winter. With it being very cold, the underside of the floor freeze dried over the winter. In the spring, I sealed the slits I made with Flex-mend tape and I put a dab of marine silicone at every wall tie down stud/nut. I also removed the plastic wheel skirts and used a syringe with a flexible tube to silicone the area the skirt mounting screws penetrated the Darco.

Four seasons later, I did not have any reoccurrence of the water damage to the underside of the floor.

Here is my original post on the issue: http://www.keystoneforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23809

BTW: Our Jayco FW has a aluminum sheet stapled over the wheel well to protect the Darco. And since it has fiberglass insulation under the 5/8 plywood floor, the Darco has small drain holes the full length of the trailer. Something I will be watching closely.

[danf]

For an update. I have a case open with Keystone and my trailer is at the dealer getting an assessment. They take photos, etc and give that information to Keystone. I was told by the dealer that Bullets have a flaw due to Keystone not putting butyl tape under the screws that screw on the apron. They have seen a number of Bullets with the issue and have about 50% success rate for Keystone to do something about it. Sounds like Keystone is sticking to the terms of the warranty (of course), so I'm not sure what chance an out of warranty trailer has. Dealer said uphill battle. They also said they don't fix these floors because they can't and that Keystone doesn't either.



My 3yr old trailer is completely worthless. Other than the floor, I've had no problems. the rest of the trailer is in good shape.

[JRTJH]

...
Thanks John. I am looking at my wheel wells this week and I think you might be onto something. How are you planning on attaching it?

I used 1.5" self tapping 1/4" head screws, drilled them into the steel framework on each corner of the wheelwells. On a couple of places I had to drill pilot holes, but for most, the screws "self-tapped" into the steel members. Once secured, I sealed the entire periphery with DICOR sealant. I suppose I "created a new roof to check frequently" with the DICOR, but it was the sealant I had on hand. With a wet rubber glove on my hand, I smoothed the DICOR and pressed it into the seams as much as I could, so hopefully it's a waterproof layer. I'll take a few photos once the sun comes out to better explain what I did.

[mikec557]

I used 1.5" self tapping 1/4" head screws, drilled them into the steel framework on each corner of the wheelwells. On a couple of places I had to drill pilot holes, but for most, the screws "self-tapped" into the steel members. Once secured, I sealed the entire periphery with DICOR sealant. I suppose I "created a new roof to check frequently" with the DICOR, but it was the sealant I had on hand. With a wet rubber glove on my hand, I smoothed the DICOR and pressed it into the seams as much as I could, so hopefully it's a waterproof layer. I'll take a few photos once the sun comes out to better explain what I did.

John

Why did you decide on HDPE rather than something like coroplast(sp)? I thought the latter might be easier to work with?

I think I have this situation beginning to develop. My darco is starting to look like an old worn out blue tarp. I was thinking about trying to cover the area with "belly tape" but I think a more solid surface like you're doing is a better solution.

Do you have a source for the 1/4in HDPE?
Or a source for coroplast?

Thanks
Mike

[Ccrew]

Coroplast only source I've found in black in the necessary width is to buy it from Trekwood.

[JRTJH]

John

Why did you decide on HDPE rather than something like coroplast(sp)? I thought the latter might be easier to work with?

I think I have this situation beginning to develop. My darco is starting to look like an old worn out blue tarp. I was thinking about trying to cover the area with "belly tape" but I think a more solid surface like you're doing is a better solution.

Do you have a source for the 1/4in HDPE?
Or a source for coroplast?

Thanks
Mike

Coroplast, if you've pulled a piece and looked at it, is about 0.25mm (paper thin) thick plastic that's molded into a corrugated sheet that's about 1/8 to 3/16 inch thick. . The structural strength is essentially not more than the 0.25mm plastic can "defend". In other words, not a lot more "defense against rocks thrown from the tire tread" than the DARCO that's already there, pierced with thousands of tiny holes that allow the moisture to reach the luan floor.

So, HDPE 1/4" thick sheeting is SUBSTANTIALLY stronger than the coroplast and capable of preventing rocks from knocking holes in the wheelwell covering.

For me, I've got the extra payload capacity in my Cougar that I can afford to "install 40 pounds of HDPE sheeting". If I were trying to conserve my trailer payload, I might have considered coroplast and "hoped it worked"...

I would have installed 20 ga steel sheeting if I had the tools to fabricate wheelwell liners, but, for me, that's significant "overkill for what's needed" and substantially more weight than I wanted to add to the trailer.

In short, to answer your question, Coroplast, IMHO simply isn't strong enough to be used as a "wheelwell liner" where rocks would likely destroy it in short order. I wanted a more permanent and stronger material to make the repair.

[mikec557]

Thanks for your thinking. It makes total sense.

Are you going to try to make either given side a one piece of HDPE install or are outriggers and such going to mandate seaming multiple pieces for each side.

Really like to see pictures when you get it done.

Thanks for your info and advice across all forum topics.

Mike

[mikec557]

Coroplast only source I've found in black in the necessary width is to buy it from Trekwood.

Thanks for the source CCREW. While I probably won't use the coroplast for this project, I'm sure it will handy to have for future projects.

Mike

[JRTJH]

Thanks for your thinking. It makes total sense.

Are you going to try to make either given side a one piece of HDPE install or are outriggers and such going to mandate seaming multiple pieces for each side.

Really like to see pictures when you get it done.

Thanks for your info and advice across all forum topics.

Mike

It's done. If it wasn't raining, I'd slide under the trailer and take a couple of photos, but..... I cut the HDPE to fit the wheelwell spaces between the outriggers. I've got one outrigger directly over the space between the tires, so there's two pieces, both butted up against the outrigger. I ran the HDPE from the front of the wheelwell to the outrigger, then from the outrigger to the aft outrigger. I have enough to run the HDPE all the way to the rear of the trailer on the outside of the main frame rails and plan to do that, but probably not until next spring (after our annual UP fishing trip).

If you do decide to put anything in your wheel wells, make sure you measure both. My roadside wheelwell is 11.5" wide and the curbside wheelwell is 13.25" wide, so don't assume that they are built equal, "they ain't".....

[JRTJH]

Here's a couple of photos of the HDPE installed in my wheelwells.

[mikec557]

Here's a couple of photos of the HDPE installed in my wheelwells.

Thanks John

You know what they say, a picture is worth a 1000 words. Looks like I've got a major task coming this Fall.

Did you buy it in black or paint it? I would have guessed nothing would stick to HDPE...

Thanks again
Mike

[JRTJH]

I bought it at Menard's. It is only stocked in black, 1/4" thickness at this store. Possibly it's available in different colors or thicknesses at other stores, but that's all they have in stock here. I considered (briefly) 1/8" thickness, also in black, but the cost of special handling, even for store delivery, made the final cost more than the 1/4" that was in stock. So, "cheap me" elected to use the 1/4".

I cut it with a 7" circular saw with a new carbide blade. No problems at all cutting it, but you will have lots of "tiny black chips" all over the work area, so plan to do your cutting on saw horses OUTSIDE !!!!!. I used a power leaf blower to clean up the mess. Easy to do.

As for sealing the HDPE in the wheel wells, I used a couple of tubes of DICOR non-leveling sealant that I had in the refrigerator. I "literally gobbed it on" and then used my finger (in a latex glove) to spread it around, push it into the cracks and smear it smooth.... As you can see, there's "lots of sealant, liberally applied" to the edges of the HDPE. Hopefully it won't leak "around the edges" LOL

[mikec557]

I bought it at Menard's. It is only stocked in black, 1/4" thickness at this store. Possibly it's available in different colors or thicknesses at other stores, but that's all they have in stock here. I considered (briefly) 1/8" thickness, also in black, but the cost of special handling, even for store delivery, made the final cost more than the 1/4" that was in stock. So, "cheap me" elected to use the 1/4".

I cut it with a 7" circular saw with a new carbide blade. No problems at all cutting it, but you will have lots of "tiny black chips" all over the work area, so plan to do your cutting on saw horses OUTSIDE !!!!!. I used a power leaf blower to clean up the mess. Easy to do.

As for sealing the HDPE in the wheel wells, I used a couple of tubes of DICOR non-leveling sealant that I had in the refrigerator. I "literally gobbed it on" and then used my finger (in a latex glove) to spread it around, push it into the cracks and smear it smooth.... As you can see, there's "lots of sealant, liberally applied" to the edges of the HDPE. Hopefully it won't leak "around the edges" LOL

Menard's. Man what I wouldn't give to live near one of those. We traveled through the mid west just a couple months ago. First time I was ever in a Menard's. I'd take that over a Home Depot and Lowe's combined. LOL

[danf]

To update, so far they have denied any claim. They refuse to acknowledge where the water came from and are basically hiding behind the terms of the warranty.


The worst part is that I called them and literally hung up on me. They were not willing to discuss the matter at all. Unbelievable.

[JRTJH]

To update, so far they have denied any claim. They refuse to acknowledge where the water came from and are basically hiding behind the terms of the warranty.


The worst part is that I called them and literally hung up on me. They were not willing to discuss the matter at all. Unbelievable.

This is a comment about "process" not the "propriety of who should be paying for repairs"....

From what I've read, this situation has completely bypassed all dealerships and the trailer owner is working with/responding to Keystone Customer Service ONLY... As such, it's very likely that Keystone is going to be less than cooperative with the owner. Their "typical response" is "Contact your dealership for any/all warranty considerations".... If that's not done, it's pretty much a given that Keystone will not cooperate....

If that's what has transpired here, then including the selling dealer (even 4 years after the sale) may be the only way to get Keystone to even acknowledge that there is a problem.....

Whether it's what we want to believe is "right or wrong" if it's the company policy and they stick to it, since they "own the warranty administration" either play ball their way or you won't play ball on their field.

[danf]

This is a comment about "process" not the "propriety of who should be paying for repairs"....

From what I've read, this situation has completely bypassed all dealerships and the trailer owner is working with/responding to Keystone Customer Service ONLY... As such, it's very likely that Keystone is going to be less than cooperative with the owner. Their "typical response" is "Contact your dealership for any/all warranty considerations".... If that's not done, it's pretty much a given that Keystone will not cooperate....

If that's what has transpired here, then including the selling dealer (even 4 years after the sale) may be the only way to get Keystone to even acknowledge that there is a problem.....

Whether it's what we want to believe is "right or wrong" if it's the company policy and they stick to it, since they "own the warranty administration" either play ball their way or you won't play ball on their field.


Its been at the dealer for more than a month now.

[RVPP]

Man oh man, you folks have given me a to think about. I'm getting close to buying a 2013, 213RBS. Soft area in the 'living room' floor I thought wouldn't be a problem to repair, now I'm not sure.
Something to sleep on, thanks a lot.


Paul


Remember, this is not a rehearsal.

[JRTJH]

Man oh man, you folks have given me a to think about. I'm getting close to buying a 2013, 213RBS. Soft area in the 'living room' floor I thought wouldn't be a problem to repair, now I'm not sure.
Something to sleep on, thanks a lot.


Paul


Remember, this is not a rehearsal.

On the "old style" 3/4" or 5/8" marine plywood floors, if they were water damaged or dry rotted, all you had to do was "cut out the bad part, install some 1/4" backing under the edges of the cutout and install a new plywood floor in place of the damaged floor. That's no longer true with the "sandwich floor system". Essentially, there's "minimal structural integrity" with the sandwich floor. It's either 1/4" luan (or two sheets of 1/8" luan glued together) that sits on top of 1.5" of Styrofoam panel (think pink stuff from Lowe's) with a 1/8" luan bottom layer. So, effectively, you have a 1/4" floor with a layer of solid insulation under it. When it gets wet (and eventually it will) the Styrofoam will hold water, the bottom luan will quickly separate and rot away, leaving a "weak and molding floor". Repairs are difficult because there's no easy way to tear it up and fasten a replacement panel in place. There's just limited places to secure the new floor to the old floor system. If there is damage to the existing floor that extends under cupboards or under the sidewall attachment area, then repair difficulty just increased exponentially.

It's not a "fun weekend project" to replace any part of a sandwich floor system.

[JRTJH]

Its been at the dealer for more than a month now.

Is the dealer coordinating the repair with Keystone, waiting for you to get Keystone to agree to pay or expecting you to give the "go ahead" to start work???? It sounds, from your posts, that the dealer isn't involved with any negotiations involving Keystone, at least I don't remember reading about their efforts, just yours.

[danf]

Is the dealer coordinating the repair with Keystone, waiting for you to get Keystone to agree to pay or expecting you to give the "go ahead" to start work???? It sounds, from your posts, that the dealer isn't involved with any negotiations involving Keystone, at least I don't remember reading about their efforts, just yours.


The dealer has been working with keystone with no luck.

[danf]

Man oh man, you folks have given me a to think about. I'm getting close to buying a 2013, 213RBS. Soft area in the 'living room' floor I thought wouldn't be a problem to repair, now I'm not sure.
Something to sleep on, thanks a lot.


Paul


Remember, this is not a rehearsal.


It takes a while for the top layer of the floor sandwich to show water damage. By the time it does, there is severe water damage to the bottom layer of the sandwich. Keystone knows this and that is why the warranty is only 1 year. They know that customers are unlikely to see water damage until they are outside of the warranty window.



If there is a soft spot, good chance most of the bottom layer has already delaminated extensively. Besides having to remove all walls, fixtures, cabinets, etc and deal with slideouts a repair has two challenges. One is that the floor sandwich lays on top of the trailer frame. If you remove the bottom layer of wood between the floor frame and the trailer frame, you have to replace it with something. The second is how the outside walls are attached. From what I can tell the outside walls rest on top of the floor sandwich. If you remove the top layer of the sandwich that sits between the aluminum floor frame and the walls, you have to replace it with something.


The floor simply is not made to be fixed. IMO look for a unit with a solid wood floor.

[JRTJH]

...
The floor simply is not made to be fixed. IMO look for a unit with a solid wood floor.

I agree. The reason that Keystone and most other RV manufacturers developed the "substantially lighter (and weaker) floor" was to provide consumers with a 32' travel trailer that weighs in under 5500 pounds. They cut corners on strength in the floor system, lightened the thickness of aluminum structures, used thinner mattresses and cushions, thinner vinyl flooring, 20 pound propane tanks (rather than typical 30 pound tanks), PEX rather than copper plumbing lines (likely to be seen as an improvement over copper), TPO rather than galvanized roofing, NOCO "unibody" frame rather than heavier steel I-beam frame, "innovative" insulation (bubble wrap) rather than fiberglass, smaller holding tanks and even thinner, lighter materials for the exterior of the trailer.

Essentially, in the "quest to tow a palace with a SUV" the consumer has driven this move to lightweight trailers....

I'd pose a question: Did we screw ourselves and get exactly what we demanded ?????

[08quadram]

My bullet is at the dealership waiting on soft floor and other things. 3 months old (since taking delivery anyway). We shall see

[danf]

I agree. The reason that Keystone and most other RV manufacturers developed the "substantially lighter (and weaker) floor" was to provide consumers with a 32' travel trailer that weighs in under 5500 pounds. They cut corners on strength in the floor system, lightened the thickness of aluminum structures, used thinner mattresses and cushions, thinner vinyl flooring, 20 pound propane tanks (rather than typical 30 pound tanks), PEX rather than copper plumbing lines (likely to be seen as an improvement over copper), TPO rather than galvanized roofing, NOCO "unibody" frame rather than heavier steel I-beam frame, "innovative" insulation (bubble wrap) rather than fiberglass, smaller holding tanks and even thinner, lighter materials for the exterior of the trailer.

Essentially, in the "quest to tow a palace with a SUV" the consumer has driven this move to lightweight trailers....

I'd pose a question: Did we screw ourselves and get exactly what we demanded ?????


Well, they could have made different choices for the floor. For example, why even bother having the bottom layer of wood in the floor? If they had to have a bottom layer, a sheet of 1/8" plastic would be just as light and cheaper and waterproof. They could have used wood that didn't have outside cardboard layers so it wouldn't delaminate as fast. They could have put in weep holes so trapped water could leave. For a few bucks they could have protected the exposed floor in the wheel wells. They could have even sprayed automotive undercoat in the wheel wells for a few dollars. Literally a few dollars. They wanted to build cheap, but it's a flawed design. They know it. You get a 1 year warranty on it because they know by the time the upper layer shows water damage, you will be out of warranty.



Unfortunately my dealer didn't say anything about these floors. If I had known what the floor situation was on these I would have moved to a unit with a solid floor.

[danf]

My bullet is at the dealership waiting on soft floor and other things. 3 months old (since taking delivery anyway). We shall see


Let us know what happens. My dealer mentioned that Keystone didn't put caulking on the screws that screw on the skirt on some Bullets. This was a source of some floor water problems.

[JRTJH]

Well, they could have made different choices for the floor. For example, why even bother having the bottom layer of wood in the floor? If they had to have a bottom layer, a sheet of 1/8" plastic would be just as light and cheaper and waterproof. They could have used wood that didn't have outside cardboard layers so it wouldn't delaminate as fast. They could have put in weep holes so trapped water could leave. For a few bucks they could have protected the exposed floor in the wheel wells. They could have even sprayed automotive undercoat in the wheel wells for a few dollars. Literally a few dollars. They wanted to build cheap, but it's a flawed design. They know it. You get a 1 year warranty on it because they know by the time the upper layer shows water damage, you will be out of warranty.



Unfortunately my dealer didn't say anything about these floors. If I had known what the floor situation was on these I would have moved to a unit with a solid floor.

So much of what you're suggesting "they could have..." were incorporated into my 1972 Jayco Jayraven 20' trailer. The reasons (IMHO) that they fell by the wayside are:

Weight reduction (spray undercoating is heavier than DARCO)

Production costs (using the pallets of luan already in the warehouse rather than paying to retool the plant to use plastic, not to mention the added cost of drilling holes so water can drain ($2 per trailer adds up over a 10 year production run, ask any "bean counter")

Sometimes building cheap is the only way to keep a presence in the market. Keystone and Airstream are at opposite ends of that spectrum. One starts at $11,000 the other at $55,000. Having owned an Airstream, I can attest that they are not 5 times better than a Hideout LS trailer and in some ways, they're not as livable.

I'm not defending Keystone's business plan. I'm just stating my observation as someone "watching the industry". Keystone would be bankrupt if they suddenly doubled the price of their trailers. Your "suggested improvements" honestly carry no more weight than the owner who recommends that all models "should have" a "sleep number mattress"...

Where does Keystone "draw the line" ??? Do they ignore the mattress and incorporate your ideas or do they change back to galvanized roofs and solid floors and lose the "light market buyers" ????

Keystone has a business model that's been successful. The only way to "effect a consumer inspired change" in that business model is to affect Keystone's bottom line annual profit".... That means, buy the competition and not Keystone. However, the rub: Competition builds the same floor system without a sleep number mattress and you won't find a galvanized roof or undercoated wheelwells on any of the trailers in the price range and length/weight range.....

I'm not suggesting that Keystone is right or wrong in what they do, I'm just stating that "Keystone is successful in what they do and they're not likely to change what's working for them"..... At least, not until it starts to affect their bottom line.....

[slow]

Let us know what happens. My dealer mentioned that Keystone didn't put caulking on the screws that screw on the skirt on some Bullets. This was a source of some floor water problems.

When I first noticed and investigated the water damage on the underside of my 23RB's floor, I concluded that the source of the water was from the skirt screws not being sealed. Once I silicone all the screw holes for the skirt and walls, I had no further issues with water damaging the bottom of the floor.

[RVPP]

Any lawyers in this group? Maybe a class action lawsuit, or threat of, might get results? Just sayin'.


Paul


Remember this is not a rehearsal.

[flybouy]

Any lawyers in this group? Maybe a class action lawsuit, or threat of, might get results? Just sayin'.


Paul


Remember this is not a rehearsal.

If only it were that easy. In my observation, rarely does a class action court case result in a "big win" for the consumer. Most have results where the participants get very small checks while the attorney's get very wealthy.
This of course is not necessarily true with negligence resulting in deaths but to my knowledge there have not been any deaths from "soft floors". JMHO

[German Shepherd Guy]

:popcorn::popcorn:
I now have a bevy of new projects come spring on the TT, a 28RBPR. :rolleyes:Because of this list last fall, just after I got it, I caulked all along the wheel wells to address potential water damage. Now this year I am going to follow John's lead and address the wheel wells themselves and line them with something more appropriate to road debris coming up. ;)


A couple of people on this list have suggested they would, if they could have a mulligan, purchase a TT with a solid wood floor. How do you find such an animal? The 2018 we have was to replace a 2007 Keystone where the floor had rotted out, and it was they same system as is now being used. I replaced the whole bedroom area and it looked good, and was an improvement but it was easy to see that the rot was creeping and more significant than just the bedroom area and though I though it would be good for 5 more years I also thought that at the end of the 5 years I would not be able to give it away. :nonono: It would be parked on the back 40 and a home for rodents. :( So we traded in thinking that starting with a new unit I could keep the bad things from happening. :facepalm: Almost weekly now I hear of approaching calamity and think of all I have to do to avert it. :hide:

So, I am back to my question...Does anyone know of units that have solid wood floors that can be safely towed with less than a 2500 long bed truck, and that do not cost double or triple of what I gave for my 28RBPR? :confused:

The industry seems intent on advertising "lighter", not on "durable". :(
Well they are lighter! :rolleyes:

[rjsurfer]

I'm curious how you supported the HDPE panels, are they screwed into the bottom panel or are you relying on the caulking to hold it up?

Thanks

Ron W.

[JRTJH]

I'm curious how you supported the HDPE panels, are they screwed into the bottom panel or are you relying on the caulking to hold it up?

Thanks

Ron W.

If you scroll back to page 2 of this thread, the explanation of how the HPDE panels are installed, complete with photos, is "hiding in plain sight".....

[danf]

:popcorn::popcorn:
The 2018 we have was to replace a 2007 Keystone where the floor had rotted out, and it was they same system as is now being used. I replaced the whole bedroom area and it looked good, and was an improvement but it was easy to see that the rot was creeping and more significant than just the bedroom area and though I though it would be good for 5 more years I


How did you fix it? I've been thinking for a while about how to fix these floors when you have to replace the entire floor.


I'm currently thinking about only having a bottom layer in the wheel well areas. As far as I can tell, you have to :


- shim 1/4" between the trailer frame and floor frame to replace the rotted bottom layer of wood.

- possibly shim 1/4" along the exterior walls depending on how the outside walls are attached to the floor.
- deal with floor elevation due to slideouts. Either you have to use a 1/4" top layer or you might get away with something thicker depending on how much room you have on the slideout's top seal. You might be able to get away with up to a 3/4" top layer, but that would change the dynamics of the top seal. That means the slideout would sit 1/2" higher and one would likely have to move the cables.

- possibly deal with interior wall height if you use something thicker for a top layer. This is probably not a huge problem.

- deal with floor to ceiling wall cabinet height. These could be trimmed of just use 1/4 under these cabinets.



I've thought about 1/4 steel or aluminum or up to 3/4" marine grade plywood as a top layer. Steel adds a lot of weight and probably is not practical. The aluminum is pricey at ~$300 for a 4'x8' sheet. The plywood has the change in floor height problem.



Anywayyou cut it, it's a huge PITA.



I'm also wondering if there is somebody out there who fixes these floors or do all these trade ins, returns to factory, etc with bad floors just get scrapped?

[SummitPond]

I agree. The reason that Keystone and most other RV manufacturers developed the "substantially lighter (and weaker) floor" was to provide consumers with a 32' travel trailer that weighs in under 5500 pounds. They cut corners on strength in the floor system, lightened the thickness of aluminum structures, used thinner mattresses and cushions, thinner vinyl flooring, 20 pound propane tanks (rather than typical 30 pound tanks), PEX rather than copper plumbing lines (likely to be seen as an improvement over copper), TPO rather than galvanized roofing, NOCO "unibody" frame rather than heavier steel I-beam frame, "innovative" insulation (bubble wrap) rather than fiberglass, smaller holding tanks and even thinner, lighter materials for the exterior of the trailer.

Essentially, in the "quest to tow a palace with a SUV" the consumer has driven this move to lightweight trailers....

I'd pose a question: Did we screw ourselves and get exactly what we demanded ?????

I'm no gearhead, but it seems to me that Detroit forced the move to manufacture lightweight trailers as their vehicles could no longer haul something substantial.

From the late mid-60s up through the early 70s my folks had a 31 foot (?) Holiday Rambler. No slides. I think it had a mid-ship kitchen; the back had twin beds that could be made into one large bed with a board and using the back cushions to fill. The dinette (as always) made into a bed, as did the up-front couch. I know the trailer was heavy, maybe not built like a tank but it had a metal roof and I suspect a solid wood subfloor. Somehow six of us and a large dog managed to travel around the country, pulled by (at first) a 1964 Ford convertible (don't recall the model); yes - some of us rode in the trailer while it was being pulled. Eventually my folks got a 1970 Plymouth Suburban wagon (no longer needed to ride in the trailer), and in 1972 they traded to a 28 foot Winnebago motorhome (but by then I was gone).

I suspect the trailer industry was adapting so they could continue to sell product to match the predominant (underpowered) tow vehicle most people had at that time.

Does anyone have any statistics on the TV population, meaning % of trucks (heavy duty vs mid-weight), SUVs and whatever else is out there that is up to the job as a function of time? It would be interesting to see if there is a correlation between the TVs and the GVWR of the TTs.

[JRTJH]

I'm no gearhead, but it seems to me that Detroit forced the move to manufacture lightweight trailers as their vehicles could no longer haul something substantial.

From the late mid-60s up through the early 70s my folks had a 31 foot (?) Holiday Rambler. No slides. I think it had a mid-ship kitchen; the back had twin beds that could be made into one large bed with a board and using the back cushions to fill. The dinette (as always) made into a bed, as did the up-front couch. I know the trailer was heavy, maybe not built like a tank but it had a metal roof and I suspect a solid wood subfloor. Somehow six of us and a large dog managed to travel around the country, pulled by (at first) a 1964 Ford convertible (don't recall the model); yes - some of us rode in the trailer while it was being pulled. Eventually my folks got a 1970 Plymouth Suburban wagon (no longer needed to ride in the trailer), and in 1972 they traded to a 28 foot Winnebago motorhome (but by then I was gone).

I suspect the trailer industry was adapting so they could continue to sell product to match the predominant (underpowered) tow vehicle most people had at that time.

Does anyone have any statistics on the TV population, meaning % of trucks (heavy duty vs mid-weight), SUVs and whatever else is out there that is up to the job as a function of time? It would be interesting to see if there is a correlation between the TVs and the GVWR of the TTs.

I think it's probably a "circular finger pointing series of events" that caused the evolution to lighter RV's.

The "energy crisis of the '70's" followed by smaller cars that ran on unleaded gas and got better fuel mileage, consumers buying these "smaller, lighter cars and trucks" and demanding a trailer they could pull, the RV industry offering "3 more inches of width" to beat the competition, then the competition offering "1 additional foot of bathroom space" to "one up the wider trailer" and the automobile industry changing to V-6 to replace the V-8, followed by the RV industry switching to rubber roofs to replace the galvanized steel roof, followed by the I-4 engine followed by the "sandwich floor" followed by the smaller I-4 engine coupled to an electric motor followed by the "helium technology" followed by .......

As the "green crowd" grows, the demand for smaller, lighter, fuel efficient cars will continue. If the RV industry is going to remain profitable, they are going to be forced to build smaller, lighter more easily towed RV's.

The question, at least to me, is will we continue to see the "square footage of today's lightweight trailers" or will the size start to shrink because there's just no way to make them lighter with thinner floors as people eat more McDonalds and grow heavier with the same size shoes..... (more pounds per square inch on that thin floor)...

I really don't think anyone in the RV industry (builder, supplier, seller or consumer) has any idea what the RV's will look like in the year 2040...... Certainly it won't be 8,000 pounds, 11'6" tall and 32' long. It may "fold out to that size, but it won't occupy that much space on the highway behind an electric (or nuclear powered) family transport vehicle (assuming we will even be allowed to own a private vehicle because of population overgrowth and lack of funds to build/maintain a highway system..... :hide:

[SummitPond]

<clip>
... behind an electric (or nuclear powered) family transport vehicle ...

John

I would love to see a nuclear powered vehicle. It's not all that unrealistic from a technical point-of-view.

NASA article on radioisotope powered systems (https://rps.nasa.gov/about-rps/about-plutonium-238/)
New prototype nuclear battery (https://phys.org/news/2018-06-prototype-nuclear-battery-power.html) (states energy density is ~3.3 Wh/gram)

This article (https://fas.org/sgp/othergov/doe/lanl/pubs/00818005.pdf) indicates modern radioisotopic thermal generators can produce about 12 watts/pound (nothing stated on energy density).

A lithium battery produces about 0.265 Wh/gram, thus the new nickel-diamond based battery (2nd link above) sound really enticing; no idea of cost (on any of this!).

Maybe one day ... :whistling:

Ken

[danf]

So Keystone is coping out and telling me the holes along the frame rail are due to lack of maintenance. What a POS company.



The holes are caused because the cloth gets pinched between the frame and the flooring. As you can see in the picture the bigger hole is along the inside of the frame rail. There are actually smaller holes all along the frame rail, but they don't show well in the picture. It's a manufacturing defect.

[08quadram]

One has to wonder what Keystone recommends for maintenance at that location. What a crock. I'm pushing for a new unit with my rotting floor.

[Sarge2]

Being new to the RV world, I'm wondering if this or should I say these, issues are across the board throughout the RV industry...
Are there really companies that are better than others? I think this issue with your rotting floors is beyond my comprehension on a vehicle so new...
In fact, a vehicle less 5 years old having any issues like this to me is really bazaar... Am I just too new and naive? Have been in the Automotive world a long time, I've seen a lot of engineering issues, build issues and just plain sloppy work but normally nothing that destroyed the vehicle to the point of falling thru the floor in under two years... or Rotting out in a year or leaking so badly (other than the T-top debacle in the 70's and 80's) that would render the vehicle in need of a nearly frame off repair...
Again, I simply have not had enough experience in this realm to have seen the Good Bad and Ugly side of travel trailers..
Generally speaking can someone educate me on how widespread this is in the industry and how the manufacturers are getting away with it...?
Thanks
Sarge

[JRTJH]

…

Generally speaking can someone educate me on how widespread this is in the industry and how the manufacturers are getting away with it...?
Thanks
Sarge

This is my opinion, not a "peer reviewed policy" regarding the entire RV industry. IMHO, all the major manufacturers are "highly competitive" and they all "use the same industry standards" when building competitive models.

That said, you can buy "ultra-lite RV's" that are, for the most part, built along the same industry standards.

You can buy "medium lite RV's" that are a bit different, heavier and for the most part, are built along an "upgraded industry standard"

You can buy "heavy RV's" that are sturdier, built with solid floors, improved techniques, some better quality equipment, more optional items included as standard build items" and, in some models/brands, improved customer service, warranty support and personalized service.

You're not going to find an "entry level" (AKA CHEAP) RV with all the upgraded build items, a "we'll fix it for you at the factory" concept and things like "factory supported rallies where the factory sends a repair team to offer support to owners, etc...

At Keystone, there's no "annual rally for buyers" (except the Montana rally). They choose to market their trailers about $5000 less than Grand Design models that are similar in build. IMHO, the Cougar and the Solitude are similar in build quality. The difference: With Cougar, you have to fight Keystone to get it fixed while with the Solitude, GD offers an "improved repair under warranty" concept.

It's taken me about 30 years to come to the conclusion that those two trailers are similar in build, and, for some people it's worth the extra cost to have the warranty, for some people, the cheaper price of the Cougar makes it more attractive....

Just as "years ago, you could buy a Buick or a Pontiac and get luxury" or you could "buy a Chevrolet and get the basics"...

In the RV world, if you do your homework, you can find the subtle differences between manufacturers. As I said, it took me about 30 years to comprehend those subtle differences.... Maybe I'm just slow or maybe those differences are so subtle that the novice simply "won't ever get it"....

To me, it's not worth the effort to try to educate someone about the "what's the difference between Keystone, Forest River, Grand Design and Winnebago" when the conversation "ALWAYS" winds up in the weeds with an argument about "well, they should....."... Trust me when I say, "THEY" (the manufacturers) are dug in, ain't gonna change in the near future and nothing we "wring our hands and wish for" is going to make any difference in their bottom line.....

So, it boils down to a simple choice: Buy an RV you like or save your money for some other venture and the guy standing behind you will buy the one you turned down. There's no "loss" to Keystone, FR or GD by your walking away....

Cold hearted Keystone??? Not really, they don't need you to buy anything, someone else will buy their "junk" or their "good model" (depending on how you feel about it) as fast as they can push them out the door.....

[danf]

...

So, it boils down to a simple choice: Buy an RV you like or save your money for some other venture and the guy standing behind you will buy the one you turned down. There's no "loss" to Keystone, FR or GD by your walking away....

Cold hearted Keystone??? Not really, they don't need you to buy anything, someone else will buy their "junk" or their "good model" (depending on how you feel about it) as fast as they can push them out the door.....


In other words, "there is a sucker born every minute". This is absolutely the scenario.

[danf]

Being new to the RV world, I'm wondering if this or should I say these, issues are across the board throughout the RV industry...
Are there really companies that are better than others? I think this issue with your rotting floors is beyond my comprehension on a vehicle so new...
In fact, a vehicle less 5 years old having any issues like this to me is really bazaar... Am I just too new and naive? Have been in the Automotive world a long time, I've seen a lot of engineering issues, build issues and just plain sloppy work but normally nothing that destroyed the vehicle to the point of falling thru the floor in under two years... or Rotting out in a year or leaking so badly (other than the T-top debacle in the 70's and 80's) that would render the vehicle in need of a nearly frame off repair...
Again, I simply have not had enough experience in this realm to have seen the Good Bad and Ugly side of travel trailers..
Generally speaking can someone educate me on how widespread this is in the industry and how the manufacturers are getting away with it...?
Thanks
Sarge


You have to add to that too that campers don't get used like automobiles in terms of mileage. We used ours less than 10 times.



These same issues could happen across different manufacturers. I can't speak to those units. However for Bullets, Keystone didn't seal the screws that screw on the apron. My dealer is currently dealing with floor rot issues on another Bullet the same year as mine and mentioned they have dealt with 4 or 5 in the past. According to them, some Bullets are showing rot even before the warranty has expired. IMO, the floors on Bullets are rotten right on the lot and it's just luck whether the problem presents itself before or after the warranty expires.

[danf]

Evidently I'm banned from the Keystone face book page. They deleted my posts too. I've been watching their facebook page for a while and it looks like they delete most of the negative comments that come from customers. What a company.



As for my trailer, I'm looking to get it back from the dealer. I was told to try my insurance company. Not sure what will happen. If insurance does nothing, then I will have to figure out if fixing it is worth it or even possible, whether I should just try to sell it since nothing else is wrong with it, or just set it on fire.

[travelin texans]

Evidently I'm banned from the Keystone face book page. They deleted my posts too. I've been watching their facebook page for a while and it looks like they delete most of the negative comments that come from customers. What a company.



As for my trailer, I'm looking to get it back from the dealer. I was told to try my insurance company. Not sure what will happen. If insurance does nothing, then I will have to figure out if fixing it is worth it or even possible, whether I should just try to sell it since nothing else is wrong with it, or just set it on fire.

I'm sure the FB page is just like this, or any other, forum, if you were banned it was the moderators as just like this forum Keystone DOES NOT have anyone reading, moderating or any input whatsoever, read the disclaimer at the bottom of the page.

[skids]

I assume that the moderators are identified here as “site team.”

[skids]

Danf, I was hoping that you would be giving us step-by-steps for repair if you were to pursue the daunting project. I bought the Bullet RKS and have done nothing with it except haul it home. I will be doing some things like lining the fenders in hopes that it prevents rotting floor. This possibility just make me sick! I personally don’t buy into the idea that the consumers caused this p*ss-poor design. Customers are uninformed. I also didn’t know that I couldn’t walk on the roof to do inspections and maintenance. That is something that I took for granted because my previous Jayco allowed it.

[danf]

Danf, I was hoping that you would be giving us step-by-steps for repair if you were to pursue the daunting project. I bought the Bullet RKS and have done nothing with it except haul it home. I will be doing some things like lining the fenders in hopes that it prevents rotting floor. This possibility just make me sick! I personally don’t buy into the idea that the consumers caused this p*ss-poor design. Customers are uninformed. I also didn’t know that I couldn’t walk on the roof to do inspections and maintenance. That is something that I took for granted because my previous Jayco allowed it.


I will take photos, etc if I do go the repair route. Unfortunately we're full blown winter now so it's looking like spring before I could do anything. The dealer had the unit for so long, I missed my opportunity to fix it. It's a daunting project.



You absolutely want to line the fenders. I put down planks when I was up on the roof. If you unscrew the 4 screws that screw on the roof vent, you will be able to see just exactly what the roof is all about.



Keystone didn't put caulking on the screws that screw on the apron. If I were you I would pull every one of them and put some caulking in the screw hole and screw them back in. Then apply caulking over the screw head. Do the same on the door threshold screws. Rust on any of those screws is a sign of water in the floor.

[ctbruce]

I assume that the moderators are identified here as “site team.”Yes, site team = moderators. There are 6 of us.

[skids]

Yes, site team = moderators. There are 6 of us.

It’s a thankless job and someone has to do it. I have seen forums get out of control where many members just threw up their hands and moved on, never to post again.

[MrRobalo]

I’m a newbie actually just bought a 2018 Bullet 220RBI That the original owner bought and traded it in . The trailer had no signs of being used as the toilet hasn’t ever been used. It looks and I looked over it top to bottom for anything that looks out of the ordinary. I have made many updates an added accessories to our rig in the last 3 months ( just got a Tow Vehicle recently ) I was in the marine industry working at the Manufacture of a major boat company and went from the grinding room to regional sales manager. I was in Quality control & warranty manager as well as company captain. I can see both sides of the fence and feel empathy Of us owners with problems.
So after reading of this floor problem I was wondering if I were to take it down and get the underbody totally coated in Rinoliner wouldn’t that create a dry layer of protection to keep water as well as rock damage out of the picture.
Just some food for thought. I might bet totally wrong thinking this way but just thinking out of the box was what I got paid for. LoL

[JRTJH]

Your idea of spraying a protective coating on the underside of the trailer will protect it from about 50% of the risk. The other 50% comes from above the floor (roof leaks, window leaks, side vent/molding leaks, plumbing leaks and "just plain bad luck leaks"... Your idea won't protect you from that half of the problem, but it would add significant weight, which in a boat might be considered "well spent ballast" but in an RV, is extra, unwanted weight that detracts from payload, adds to tire wear and increases demand on the tow vehicle.

Then, to add insult to injury, if you should have a problem with a rotted/damaged floor, that Rhino-liner will make repairs even more difficult.

My vote: No, it probably won't be cost effective and may not prevent the damage you're trying to avoid.

[MrRobalo]

Thank you and this is what makes a forum so great. You can’t get this type of knowledge without years of Experience I think I’ll stick to what I know and that is boats.lol I have a website for owners of the boats we built and it’s kind of like this forum . I guess the weight factors into almost every aspect on the trailer. In boats it’s a factor but we the manufacture take care of it when we build it and the retail customer can add weight but it’s usually moveable and can balance it out moving it around manually it with trim tabs which would be like load leveling setup system for trailers. Thanks for the tips and knowledge.

[JRTJH]

You might consider "reinforcing" the wheel well liners by some means. The tires sling pebbles into the air, often poking holes in the DACOR liner. Once that happens, every time you tow in rain or on wet roads/through puddles, you force water under the DACOR and onto the "cheap luan surface" of the wheelwell structure.

I bought a 4'x8' sheet of 1/4" HDPE at Menards for $60 and cut it to fit my wheelwells. I just checked the Menards website and it appears their manufacturer is not producing that product and it's no longer available. Possibly other sources are available. Here's the link to what I bought: https://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/panel-products/plastic-utility-panels/1-4-x-4-x-8-hdpe-panel/1295015/building-materials/panel-products/plastic-utility-panels/1-4-x-4-x-8-hdpe-panel/1295035/building-materials/panel-products/plastic-utility-panels/1-4-x-4-x-8-hdpe-panel/1295015/building-materials/panel-products/plastic-utility-panels/1-4-x-4-x-8-hdpe-panel/1295035/building-materials/panel-products/plastic-utility-panels/1-4-x-4-x-8-hdpe-panel/1295015/p-1444424094192.htm

Previous posts in this thread provide how I installed the HDPE and sealed the edges. Is "my mod" the only means to protect the wheelwells? Certainly not, I'm sure there are many other solutions, this one is just the way I accomplished it.

If you decide to modify your underbelly area, take photos, post your work and any issues you encountered. Other members will gain experience from your work and we all learn from each other.

Good Luck

ADDED: I don't know which keys my fingers were pressing before my first cup of coffee (above) but there's no DACOR underbelly. It's DARCO... Sorry about that if it caused any confusion.....

[Gegrad]

Your idea of spraying a protective coating on the underside of the trailer will protect it from about 50% of the risk. The other 50% comes from above the floor (roof leaks, window leaks, side vent/molding leaks, plumbing leaks and "just plain bad luck leaks"... Your idea won't protect you from that half of the problem, but it would add significant weight, which in a boat might be considered "well spent ballast" but in an RV, is extra, unwanted weight that detracts from payload, adds to tire wear and increases demand on the tow vehicle.



John, I have pondered spraying several cans of the rubberized undercoating over the problematic Darco areas under the wheel well portion, in the same spots where you installed your HDPE. (Mine are also showing some signs of small softening). The stuff you spray on vehicle frames, axles, and wheel wells to prevent rust. Waterproof, and wouldn't add much weight. My only concern would be how well it would hold up to the pebble dusting, but it is often used on car wheel wells which also get rock spray. Thoughts?

[JRTJH]

DARCO is a "think plastic tarp material"... I'd be very concerned with spraying anything on that material and hoping that it won't tear or droop. The DARCO is not attached to the wheelwell, just "laid over it and secured at the perimeter".. That means, to me, that if you spray a thicker coating of anything on the DARCO, if the plastic tarp tears, so does the coating.

So, for me, the solution was to just leave the DARCO in place and install an "independent" covering that didn't rely on the DARCO for any strength or attachment security.

To me, relying on the DARCO is like draping a blue poly tarp over your house, then rolling on a new tar paper roof. As soon as the blue poly tarp slides, so goes the tar paper....

Or maybe, applying a coat of quality paint over some "blistering" wall paper. The paint may stick super well, but as soon as the wall paper falls off the sheetrock, so does the paint...… YMMV

[OutbackToy]

What if you just sprayed the wheel wells with an undercoating product, like Kendall Coat. I used to use it back in the day to undercoat cars and prevent rust.

[OutbackToy]

3M 03584 Professional Grade Rubberized Undercoating - Best Choice For Cars & Trucks

Would this work?

[Gegrad]

3M 03584 Professional Grade Rubberized Undercoating - Best Choice For Cars & Trucks

Would this work?

John stated he thinks it would cause the Darco to sag an pull away from the floor since it is only fastened at the corners. See above.

[CampNBrew2]

How about stapling the Darco to the underside at 6-8" spacing to give it strength to hold the weight of the undercoating? This assumes the undercoating will seal the staple punctures from water. Or one better, use the Darco seam tape to seal the staples then apply undercoating.
I have thought about thin ABS sheeting as well for sealing the Darco.

[JRTJH]

How about stapling the Darco to the underside at 6-8" spacing to give it strength to hold the weight of the undercoating? This assumes the undercoating will seal the staple punctures from water. Or one better, use the Darco seam tape to seal the staples then apply undercoating.
I have thought about thin ABS sheeting as well for sealing the Darco.

Would you apply a roll of masking tape to your drywall then paint over the masking tape??? No matter how good the top coat adheres to the masking tape, your coating will fail when the adhesive in the masking tape fails. It doesn't matter that the paint "is stuck like glue to the tape, when the tape falls off the drywall, the coating falls off the wall and is gone.

If you apply any "coating" on top of the DARCO, that's exactly what you're doing. No matter how well you "cover the DARCO" it is not attached "permanently" to the underlying wood, so there is a good chance that the DARCO will pull away from the wood. That void between the DARCO and the wood will be your problem, not the "permanence of the top coat".

Stapling it in place, doubling the thickness by adding DARCO repair tape won't make it "stick to the wood any better" and it's nothing more than a "plastic tarp" very similar to what you can buy at Sam's Club for $19 for two. As the DARCO oils dry, it becomes brittle, starts to crack and fall away from the underlying wood. You can't change that by coating the DARCO with anything "permanent". What you'll have is a "permanently attach expensive coating hanging from the DARCO that pulled away from the wood and cracked/split when it rubbed against the top of the tire in the wheelwell.

I wouldn't rely on a thin 5 mil plastic sheet as a base layer for anything, YMMV.

[CampNBrew2]

Stapling it in place, doubling the thickness by adding DARCO repair tape won't make it "stick to the wood any better"

This was in response to the poster who mentioned possibly using a spray undercoating applied over the Darco. Since I agree with you that the Darco is only truly attached at the edges, I would recommend fastening it more thoroughly if someone wanted to undercoat it. I would argue that the staples do in fact make it "stick better". The other tape would be to seal those staple puncture holes if someone felt the undercoating wouldn't provide that.

[JRTJH]

This was in response to the poster who mentioned possibly using a spray undercoating applied over the Darco. Since I agree with you that the Darco is only truly attached at the edges, I would recommend fastening it more thoroughly if someone wanted to undercoat it. I would argue that the staples do in fact make it "stick better". The other tape would be to seal those staple puncture holes if someone felt the undercoating wouldn't provide that.

Stapling a thin plastic sheet to 1/8" luan plywood, then covering it with waterproof tape (to make it more waterproof) before spraying the surface with a waterproof "tar film" is a "feel good exercise" that doesn't make anything adhere better or resist water better. The point is that you can apply any flexible coating on the DARCO liner and the entire structure will still only be as strong as the weakest link. The staples will likely pull out of the 1/8" luan plywood in the first few miles of vibration during the first tow.

If someone wants to believe that a 5 or 6 mil sheet is a suitable base layer upon which to build a waterproof covering, well, OK, go ahead and do it. IMHO, it's an exercise in spending money chasing unicorns and rainbows. Until there's a solid base upon which to build, all you've got is a 1/8" luan panel and a sheet of "too thin plastic" as a foundation. Again, IMHO, it ain't gonna work out well.

[CampNBrew2]

I agree its not a permanent solution or the best way to build that assembly.

Since this is the way they are built and most people aren't going to razor knife the Darco off and impregnate the Luan with epoxy or other waterproofing membrane, adding some (any!) type of waterproofing would seem to help.

The floor assembly is compromised from the start since if any water gets in from above, then it can't drain out and will rot. If any water gets in from below it will rot.

On my trailer the largest expanse of Darco is under the slide. Since this rides on the wear bar, any Darco coating would would need to be something durable like a sheet good, or poly strips. Otherwise the span of Darco is maybe 18" from the frame out to the skirt.

While I agree with you that the undercoating sprayed on the Darco would add weight and it MAY sag very slightly, I think the Darco is strong enough to hold the load over this short span. Its a quick, easy thing to do that MAY help.

The old saying applies here: "There is no winning, only varying degrees of losing." These trailers are just not built to last. You do what you can to prolong the inevitable.

As far as the wheel well Darco getting punctured by debris from the tires, How about plastic Utility trailer style fenders and mounted up under the skirting? There seems to be plenty of room for these under our trailers.

[CampNBrew2]

A quick google search. Thinking something like this can be mounted underneath the skirt and help with the Darco punctures from the tires throwing road debris.

https://www.trailerpartsdepot.com/showproduct.aspx?ProductID=5588&SEName=trailer-fenders-tandem-56-lx8-wx105-h-order-in-pairs-or-as-ea

[JRTJH]

A quick google search. Thinking something like this can be mounted underneath the skirt and help with the Darco punctures from the tires throwing road debris.

https://www.trailerpartsdepot.com/showproduct.aspx?ProductID=5588&SEName=trailer-fenders-tandem-56-lx8-wx105-h-order-in-pairs-or-as-ea

Take a look under your trailer in the wheelwell area. You'll find a number of outriggers that support the trailer structure from the frame rail to the sidewall attachment. There's no way to fit a trailer fender under the wheelwell and maintain the outriggers that support the sidewalls. What you're suggesting is not possible on any RV that I've ever seen. Go look at yours, you'll see what I'm talking about. There's no way to install a "trailer fender" under the outriggers and maintain tire clearance and no way to remove the outriggers and maintain the sidewall structure.

Well, I will agree "it's possible" but the expense to reconfigure the sidewalls, the sidewall outriggers and the wheelwells will make it so expensive that it's not practical for anyone except someone who has more money than sense.

[skids]

(snip)
Well, I will agree "it's possible" but the expense to reconfigure the sidewalls, the sidewall outriggers and the wheelwells will make it so expensive that it's not practical for anyone except someone who has more money than sense.

Are you saying that because, in part, the area to be covered is more than 8"wide? I was wondering about the cut-outs for the tires because I have the split double axles. I don't think I have outriggers (fender struts?) in the affected area.

I am looking at other sheeting materials other than HDPE to maybe retrofitting something like you did John (since you said HDPE is no longer available where you got it.)

[JRTJH]

Are you saying that because, in part, the area to be covered is more than 8"wide? I was wondering about the cut-outs for the tires because I have the split double axles. I don't think I have outriggers (fender struts?) in the affected area.

I am looking at other sheeting materials other than HDPE to maybe retrofitting something like you did John (since you said HDPE is no longer available where you got it.)

My wheelwells are 11" wide on the "slide side" (roadside) and 13" wide on the curb side of my trailer. A 8" steel trailer fender, even if there were no outriggers, would leave nearly 40% uncovered in one wheelwell and 35% uncovered on the other.

I haven't seen any Keystone trailer that doesn't have outriggers in the wheelwell area. I think if you take a look (rubberneck between the tires) you'll find one right there and likely several more along the space.

As for HDPE availability, I'm sure it's still available from other sources, but where I bought mine (Menard's) it's no longer listed on their website. I can't imagine too many people buying 4x8 sheets, especially in the winter, so I'd guess that with the 25 or 30 sheets they had on hand when I bought mine, there's probably some Menard's locations that still have it in stock. Heck, Lowe's has 1/8" fiberglass panels in the bathroom remodeling department, so there's quite a few different materials available. I'd suspect it's easy to find, just not on the Menard's website.....

[skids]

(snip) Heck, Lowe's has 1/8" fiberglass panels in the bathroom remodeling department, so there's quite a few different materials available. I'd suspect it's easy to find, just not on the Menard's website.....
OK, so you would at least consider other materials. HDPE is tough stuff and chemically impervious. It is used for oil and gas piping. I am actually surprised that you can get sealant to stick.

[JRTJH]

OK, so you would at least consider other materials. HDPE is tough stuff and chemically impervious. It is used for oil and gas piping. I am actually surprised that you can get sealant to stick.

I roughed the edges with sandpaper before I installed the panels. Even then, the DICOR sealant didn't adhere like it does on other materials. In my photos, you can see it "dripping" rather than "clumping" to the HDPE. But, if I had to do it again, I'd do it the same way.

[Gegrad]

I am going to look around for something to do mine with soon, but I wouldn't use fiberglass; that stuff is way to fragile to handle flying rocks without getting its own puncture holes. I will also probably use a tougher sealant than Dicor; probably a *gasp* silicone product. I don't ever want to take off what I put down there, and if I am in a situation where I HAVE to take the HDPE, plastic, etc. off, well I got a LOT more problems than the silicone sealant. It is just a lot tougher than Dicor. I will let everyone know what I find.

BTW: What length screws did you use John? I want to get adequate gripping length but not too long so as to cause problems above.

[Brantlyj]

You might consider "reinforcing" the wheel well liners by some means. The tires sling pebbles into the air, often poking holes in the DACOR liner. Once that happens, every time you tow in rain or on wet roads/through puddles, you force water under the DACOR and onto the "cheap luan surface" of the wheelwell structure.

I bought a 4'x8' sheet of 1/4" HDPE at Menards for $60 and cut it to fit my wheelwells. I just checked the Menards website and it appears their manufacturer is not producing that product and it's no longer available. Possibly other sources are available. Here's the link to what I bought: https://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/panel-products/plastic-utility-panels/1-4-x-4-x-8-hdpe-panel/1295015/building-materials/panel-products/plastic-utility-panels/1-4-x-4-x-8-hdpe-panel/1295035/building-materials/panel-products/plastic-utility-panels/1-4-x-4-x-8-hdpe-panel/1295015/building-materials/panel-products/plastic-utility-panels/1-4-x-4-x-8-hdpe-panel/1295035/building-materials/panel-products/plastic-utility-panels/1-4-x-4-x-8-hdpe-panel/1295015/p-1444424094192.htm

Previous posts in this thread provide how I installed the HDPE and sealed the edges. Is "my mod" the only means to protect the wheelwells? Certainly not, I'm sure there are many other solutions, this one is just the way I accomplished it.

If you decide to modify your underbelly area, take photos, post your work and any issues you encountered. Other members will gain experience from your work and we all learn from each other.

Good Luck

ADDED: I don't know which keys my fingers were pressing before my first cup of coffee (above) but there's no DACOR underbelly. It's DARCO... Sorry about that if it caused any confusion.....


You can still get HDPE sheets at Menards. Just search hdpe. Comes right up for me. Different manufacture.

https://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/panel-products/plastic-utility-panels/1-4-x-4-x-8-hdpe-panel/blkhdpe48x96x220/p-1561703293089-c-14048.htm

I would also use Vulkem for the sealant. It’s pliable, water resistant, designed to adhere to a wide variety of materials and does not crack.

[JRTJH]

You can still get HDPE sheets at Menards. Just search hdpe. Comes right up for me. Different manufacture.

https://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/panel-products/plastic-utility-panels/1-4-x-4-x-8-hdpe-panel/blkhdpe48x96x220/p-1561703293089-c-14048.htm

I would also use Vulkem for the sealant. It’s pliable, water resistant, designed to adhere to a wide variety of materials and does not crack.

Thanks for the link. That's the HDPE panel I bought. When I search the local store there's no availability (doesn't come up) but your link does show it available, at least in the warehouse. That's good news to me.

Gegrad, I used 1.25" self tapping screws. The trailer floor is 2" (plus a little) and the HDPE panel is 0.25, so by the time they thread through the panel, the 1/32 outrigger and the 1/8" frame member, there's a tad bit less than 1". Since the first 3/8" is drill point/hole maker, that leaves about 1/2" of threaded screw through the metal members.

[Gegrad]

Thanks for the link. That's the HDPE panel I bought. When I search the local store there's no availability (doesn't come up) but your link does show it available, at least in the warehouse. That's good news to me.

Gegrad, I used 1.25" self tapping screws. The trailer floor is 2" (plus a little) and the HDPE panel is 0.25, so by the time they thread through the panel, the 1/32 outrigger and the 1/8" frame member, there's a tad bit less than 1". Since the first 3/8" is drill point/hole maker, that leaves about 1/2" of threaded screw through the metal members.

Great, thanks John. Did you unbolt the outriggers and run the HDPE above them, between the outrigger and the base of the wheelwell? I can't tell from the pics. My outriggers have a nut exposed on the bottom for the bolt that come down from above. It would be fairly difficult for me to get HDPE or other product above my outriggers. It looked like you had screwed the HDPE up to the floor at the corners, so that is why I am asking.

[JRTJH]

DO NOT UNBOLT THE OUTRIGGERS !!!!!!!!!

The bolts are inserted from above and the nuts are torqued below the outriggers. If you loosen one and can't access the top of the bolt, you can't retorque them.... That's a MAJOR issue !!!

What I did was cut individual sections of HDPE to fit between the outriggers. When you get under your trailer, you'll see that one side of each outrigger has a lip. I screwed the HDPE to the outrigger lip inboard and outboard, then about every foot down the lip of the frame and left the "end of the HDPE with no outrigger lip only secured on the long edges. Then move to the other side of that outrigger and repeat with the next HDPE panel. Once they were all installed, I used a pneumatic caulking gun to apply the DICOR sealant HEAVY on all edges of each panel and used my finger to smooth it a little, but mainly just to smear it around each of the bolt heads so no water could migrate up the threads.

Where the HDPE panel rests over the bolt/nut at the outer edge of each outrigger, I drilled a 3/4" hole in the HDPE so the panel fit over each outrigger bolt so I could keep the panels flush with the DARCO/outrigger lips.

HDPE is surprisingly easy to cut with a 7 1/4" circular saw. I used a scribe and a straight edge to mark each panel, only cut them "one at a time" and fit each in place before moving on... For me, that way I didn't risk cutting them all and finding out I cut it wrong and couldn't redo the others....

[MrRobalo]

As far as using fiberglass , that is what I will be using as I can get atLowes 48” x 8’ Panel @ $ 59.00 and split down the middle. Fiberglass can be brittle but if you use a sealant up against the plastic panels and use aluminum self drilling hex heads screws To attach into the frameworkIt will be VERY RIDGED (and it mite chip) but it will take more than a rock to penetrate through it. The bilateral strands infused in the resin is very strong and when it is backed up with another panel you should have the protection needed.
I want to at least get to go use are new BULLET camper before starting on a PROJECT this big BUT I want to get a jump on this to protect our investment. Being from the boating business and curiosity getting the best of me I will crawl under it soon take a few pics and draw out a game plan. The outward edge will have something to screw into and I would use either L shaped or 1/2’ square aluminum to brace the inner edges and screw then into framework running fore to aft.
I don’t want to come off as a know it all or smart a$$ but this was my career and have done and seen fiberglass used in many different applications and repairs over the years. I actually would have loved to have a fiberglass camper but want to see if we will love camping as much as boating and go from there.

[Gegrad]

DO NOT UNBOLT THE OUTRIGGERS !!!!!!!!!

The bolts are inserted from above and the nuts are torqued below the outriggers. If you loosen one and can't access the top of the bolt, you can't retorque them.... That's a MAJOR issue !!!

What I did was cut individual sections of HDPE to fit between the outriggers. When you get under your trailer, you'll see that one side of each outrigger has a lip. I screwed the HDPE to the outrigger lip inboard and outboard, then about every foot down the lip of the frame and left the "end of the HDPE with no outrigger lip only secured on the long edges. Then move to the other side of that outrigger and repeat with the next HDPE panel. Once they were all installed, I used a pneumatic caulking gun to apply the DICOR sealant HEAVY on all edges of each panel and used my finger to smooth it a little, but mainly just to smear it around each of the bolt heads so no water could migrate up the threads.

Where the HDPE panel rests over the bolt/nut at the outer edge of each outrigger, I drilled a 3/4" hole in the HDPE so the panel fit over each outrigger bolt so I could keep the panels flush with the DARCO/outrigger lips.

HDPE is surprisingly easy to cut with a 7 1/4" circular saw. I used a scribe and a straight edge to mark each panel, only cut them "one at a time" and fit each in place before moving on... For me, that way I didn't risk cutting them all and finding out I cut it wrong and couldn't redo the others....

Perfect, thanks. I wasn't planning on unbolting those bolts, so no worries there. I was just curious as to how you handled the sectioning and working around the outriggers, but you answered every question I had. I now have a perfect picture of how you fastened it. Thanks a ton!

[JRTJH]

My pleasure. If you run into any problems or have any questions as you're installing them. Chances are pretty good that I'll be online to offer suggestions. Enjoy making your wheelwells more rugged...

[sourdough]

Would you apply a roll of masking tape to your drywall then paint over the masking tape??? No matter how good the top coat adheres to the masking tape, your coating will fail when the adhesive in the masking tape fails. It doesn't matter that the paint "is stuck like glue to the tape, when the tape falls off the drywall, the coating falls off the wall and is gone.

If you apply any "coating" on top of the DARCO, that's exactly what you're doing. No matter how well you "cover the DARCO" it is not attached "permanently" to the underlying wood, so there is a good chance that the DARCO will pull away from the wood. That void between the DARCO and the wood will be your problem, not the "permanence of the top coat".

Stapling it in place, doubling the thickness by adding DARCO repair tape won't make it "stick to the wood any better" and it's nothing more than a "plastic tarp" very similar to what you can buy at Sam's Club for $19 for two. As the DARCO oils dry, it becomes brittle, starts to crack and fall away from the underlying wood. You can't change that by coating the DARCO with anything "permanent". What you'll have is a "permanently attach expensive coating hanging from the DARCO that pulled away from the wood and cracked/split when it rubbed against the top of the tire in the wheelwell.

I wouldn't rely on a thin 5 mil plastic sheet as a base layer for anything, YMMV.



John is on point. I don't know if those asking about Darco have any experience with it but...it is "stuck" on the bottom of your slide by an adhesive...that's it. A thin little layer of "plastic" stuck on by some sort of glue that actually comes "unglued" by itself. Trying to spray ANY kind of covering over it and thinking that it's going to just hang on needs some rethinking. Same with stapling it - that stuff can and will tear in a heartbeat; we're not dealing with some sort of space age Kevlar material. I've dealt with mine, repaired it etc. I couldn't in my wildest dreams entertain spraying an additional layer of "weatherproofing" on top of it having any expectations, at all, that it would continue to stay "stuck". Good luck if you try.

I have posted a link in the recent past to a provider that has hdpe in all sorts of lengths, widths etc. I am looking at buying a new Keystone 5th wheel; they all have Darco under the slides with wearbars (minus Montana). I am going to cover the entire bottom of the slides with this product (that have wearbars) with this product. There is no way to think it is a good way to do what they try to do with it.....but I like Keystone, their floorplans....and my dealer.

[Gegrad]

My pleasure. If you run into any problems or have any questions as you're installing them. Chances are pretty good that I'll be online to offer suggestions. Enjoy making your wheelwells more rugged...

Haha, I can think of several adjectives to better describe this project than "enjoyment" :lol::lol: But it has to be done, as I can also feel my floor softening under the wheel wells, just like yours. Fortunately I am not moving it for at least 2.5 more months while winter passes.

[danf]

Update: In an unbelievable turn of events, my Bullet is now at Keystone's repair facility and the entire floor is getting replaced. What I hear is the owner of the dealership (not a small dealership) called them due to having three units with the same problem. I got call from keystone saying they wanted to take it to have it fixed. So I picked my jaw off the floor and said sure. They hauled it to Indiana (I think) and the latest update is they looked at it and decided to replace the complete floor.

I didn't ask questions. I'm not sure how they are doing it and don't even know how long it will take. Time doesn't matter too much now as it's full blown winter here and it's ~4 months till camping season.

[JRTJH]

Dan,

When you get it back and are getting it ready to use, check the wheelwells very carefully. Even if Keystone rebuilds/replaces it, if they use the same or similar materials, you're going to have water damage in the wheelwells the first time you tow on wet roads. I'd urge you, based on what agreements you have with Keystone about warranty, to consider some sort of product to protect the wheelwell DARCO from damage. If Keystone doesn't address a more durable product and if you don't either, then you're going to be in the same situation in a year or two.

[sourdough]

Dan,

When you get it back and are getting it ready to use, check the wheelwells very carefully. Even if Keystone rebuilds/replaces it, if they use the same or similar materials, you're going to have water damage in the wheelwells the first time you tow on wet roads. I'd urge you, based on what agreements you have with Keystone about warranty, to consider some sort of product to protect the wheelwell DARCO from damage. If Keystone doesn't address a more durable product and if you don't either, then you're going to be in the same situation in a year or two.



^^^^^THIS!! Appears I'm going to buy a new Montana HC. From my previous looks I believe it still has the Darco in the wheelwells. It also comes with Trailer King LRF tires. My 1st (FIRST) order of business will be to reinforce those wheelwells as John did in a previous post. Between slide toppers, back up camera etc. adds I will let the TKs ride until just before our 1st trip (fall).

[Steve's 70-5]

Has anyone looked into FRP. Used in restaurant kitchen on the walls and they have decorative type that I have put on grocery store walls. It is readily available, plenty of left over in the shed at work

[Gegrad]

Has anyone looked into FRP. Used in restaurant kitchen on the walls and they have decorative type that I have put on grocery store walls. It is readily available, plenty of left over in the shed at work

I was actually looking at it myself this week. It is fiberglass, so it would be water tight, but I think it would be too soft to use in the wheel wells. I believe it would not hold up to the rocks and gravel.

[DCARLTON]

Dan,

When you get it back and are getting it ready to use, check the wheelwells very carefully. Even if Keystone rebuilds/replaces it, if they use the same or similar materials, you're going to have water damage in the wheelwells the first time you tow on wet roads. I'd urge you, based on what agreements you have with Keystone about warranty, to consider some sort of product to protect the wheelwell DARCO from damage. If Keystone doesn't address a more durable product and if you don't either, then you're going to be in the same situation in a year or two.

I have a piece of this from a previous ceiling repair job on a previous camper
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Sequentia-48-in-x-9-ft-Embossed-White-Wall-Panel/4768241

Thinking this may work as well. I have butyl tape I would probably surround the edges with and screw it in place, then hit all the edges with eternabond and dicor and think that would weather proof this too

[JRTJH]

I have a piece of this from a previous ceiling repair job on a previous camper
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Sequentia-48-in-x-9-ft-Embossed-White-Wall-Panel/4768241

Thinking this may work as well. I have butyl tape I would probably surround the edges with and screw it in place, then hit all the edges with eternabond and dicor and think that would weather proof this too

I don't know how easy that paneling is to crack/split. If it is durable enough to hold screws and "bounce down the highway" then it'll work. If it "splits and the screw holes break when over-tightened, then it may be too "brittle".... It's worth a try...

[Gegrad]

I don't know how easy that paneling is to crack/split. If it is durable enough to hold screws and "bounce down the highway" then it'll work. If it "splits and the screw holes break when over-tightened, then it may be too "brittle".... It's worth a try...

Pretty sure that is the FRP stuff I considered. It is good and water tight, but it seems fairly soft and unlikely to hold up to rocks and road debris, IMO.

[JRTJH]

This is what I used. It worked well, is durable, easy to cut without breaking and 1/4" thick, so it will take a pretty good hit without any damage.

https://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/panel-products/plastic-utility-panels/1-4-x-4-x-8-hdpe-panel/blkhdpe48x96x220/p-1561703293089-c-14048.htm

While not the "cheapest panels available", I wasn't looking to save money, rather to protect my trailer wheelwells.

[Gegrad]

This is what I used. It worked well, is durable, easy to cut without breaking and 1/4" thick, so it will take a pretty good hit without any damage.

https://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/panel-products/plastic-utility-panels/1-4-x-4-x-8-hdpe-panel/blkhdpe48x96x220/p-1561703293089-c-14048.htm

While not the "cheapest panels available", I wasn't looking to save money, rather to protect my trailer wheelwells.

I would buy a sheet of that in a heartbeat John, but unfortunately the closest Menards to me is well over 100 miles away. :(

I have shopped Lowe's, HD, and my local store, Stanford Home Center. They have lots of stuff the two box stores don't, and carry Stihl in store, so I figured they could help me out. Nada. Even looked in their computer and they cannot get me any HDPE. So I am still searching.

[JRTJH]

Well Hell ….

Maybe a camping trip this summer toward that Menards and throw it under the mattress for the ride home ??? After camping so DW doesn't fuss the whole trip <G>

[Gegrad]

Well Hell ….

Maybe a camping trip this summer toward that Menards and throw it under the mattress for the ride home ??? After camping so DW doesn't fuss the whole trip <G>

Brilliant idea... I just checked and there is a Menards less than 14 miles from where we are camping for Easter ( luckily, in OH). Sounds like I will have my leaking Darco problem solved by the end of April!(ty)

[Northofu1]

That FRP is pretty solid. Rec centers, especially arenas, use this product. Kids wail pucks off it all the time, never had to replace it. It's attached with the same nylon fasteners you see in most rv showers. That is one product im looking into doing mine with.

[German Shepherd Guy]

I am "retired", but a failure at that as a friend who owns a Navajo Weaving art gallery drafted me to work for him. BUT, it is seasonal and I will have almost two months off starting in April so that is when I am doing my wheel wells on the 26RBPR. Have already got the adhesives and caulks and scoped out the materials I plan to use at my local Home Depot. A rubber like material that I do not know the composition of but looks like it will do the job nicely. Thanks John for the original heads up I have been planning this now for awhile. I have also recruited a mechanic friend of mine to teach me how to pack the wheel bearings. I have a big April/May planned as far as the TT goes.

[skids]

FRP looks like a protective layer onto plywood. While it is probably a lot better than what we purchased from Keystone, I think I am going for HDPE as it is solid marine plastic (as far as I can tell).

[08quadram]

FRP panels can be purchased without a plywood or OSB backer

[flybouy]

FRP (fiberglass reinforced panel) is a great product but is not a "stand alone" product. It's a covering that's typically used over sheetrock in wet areas like kitchens, bathrooms, water heater surrounds, mop sinks,etc. Made out of resin with fiberglass reinforcement it's water resistant and doesn't conduct electricity. It's brittle so it's typically attached via adhesive.

[Northofu1]

FRP (fiberglass reinforced panel) is a great product but is not a "stand alone" product. It's a covering that's typically used over sheetrock in wet areas like kitchens, bathrooms, water heater surrounds, mop sinks,etc. Made out of resin with fiberglass reinforcement it's water resistant and doesn't conduct electricity. It's brittle so it's typically attached via adhesive.

^^^^x2 It needs a backer but takes a beating

[skids]

My Bullet has a slide on the drivers side (of course) and the outriggers are on the outside of the split axle tire areas.

Driver’s side: There is a horizontal wiper for the slide in that long span. The wiper causes the area to be covered to be 8 & 7/8 By 79 inches. So I am guessing that the slide wiper and its aluminum clam base should not be covered for maintenance. The length would need bracing so I was thinking of using angle iron (or aluminum if it doesn’t break the bank) to run under the HDPE and attach to the outrigger flanges somehow.

Passenger Side: The passenger side does have an outrigger between the axles and the lengths will be 36.5 and 50.5 inches by 12.5 inches wide. The problem with that side is that there are vertical bolts (lag bolts?) along the outer edge on about 9 or 10 inch centers. I don’t know how to deal with those after hearing about the warnings concerning the outriggers. Should I remove them and reinstall to support the new panels, Or should I drill holes big enough diameters to “surround” them and their washers?

[JRTJH]

skids,

Why not cut the HDPE to fit between the outriggers and use self tapping screws/washers to secure it to the wheelwell. Then seal the area with DICOR. Use the outriggers to your advantage, not as a "obstruction".

As for the lag bolts along the trailer sidewall, just mark them (measure or 4 times) then lay the HDPE so the bolt heads fit in the holes. Once secured, use DICOR to seal those holes. You can always "dig it out" if you need to remove the HDPE sheeting.

[skids]

skids,

Why not cut the HDPE to fit between the outriggers and use self tapping screws/washers to secure it to the wheelwell. Then seal the area with DICOR. Use the outriggers to your advantage, not as a "obstruction".

As for the lag bolts along the trailer sidewall, just mark them (measure or 4 times) then lay the HDPE so the bolt heads fit in the holes. Once secured, use DICOR to seal those holes. You can always "dig it out" if you need to remove the HDPE sheeting.

I thought that you secured yours with screws only at the corners where the outriggers are and sealed around edges. “Using the outriggers to my advantage” means that it is a sealant edge, right? I read something about 1.5 inch self-tapping screws where a couple were predrilled but I am not sure where those (all) were installed. If you installed them along the outer edge and covered them with Dicor, I couldn’t tell with the photos. I have a length of 79 inches so I am sure I need more screws than just the corners! I also wonder if the thickness of the materials above the wheel well is different where the slide is located. Also, as I explained, I have a slide where the wiper was installed along the outer edge, so I guess I only cover the wheel well up to the wiper assembly? Please give me more detail because I am dense as cement when it comes to this trailer. Thanks in advance John. I really appreciate your help. Sorry for being a pest. Sid

[busterbrown]

Just read 6 pages of this thread. "Damm" you folks for finding another fault in the cost saving design of some of our coaches.

Just another thing to do to mine before it's pulled to Alaska this summer. What I'm told is to expect lots of rain, lots of gravel roads, and lots of flying rocks. "Damm" you Darco underbelly covering too. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :mad: :mad: :mad: :censored: :censored:

John, thanks for the explicit DIY fix pics.

[JRTJH]

skids,

You won't have a 79" panel of HPDE, you'll have several shorter panels that fit between each of the outrigger locations. On mine, I have 4 panels on the road side and 3 panels on the curb side. As for predrilled holes, I found that trying to drill through the HPDE into the outrigger fold can cause the screw to "wallow out the HPDE", so I drilled through the HPDE along the edges (into wood) and then predrilled holes on the ends where the screws went through the outriggers.

I'd guess (just a WAG) that I've got 10-20 screws in each of the panels. There's LOTS more than just 4 in the corners..... The reason you can't see all the screws is because the DICOR covers them, something I definitely wanted to do, since water wicking up the screw threads during towing would be nearly as damaging as "screen door DARCO"....

[skids]

Thanks John. The light bulb went on finally. :D The hdpe is readily available for online orders, but shipping is ridiculous through ePlastics for a 4x8 ft sheet.

BTW, there is a video on youtube where a guy fixes wheel wells damaged from blowouts with sheet metal. It is interesting. The sheet metal is bent 90 degrees. He removes the fender and slips the metal between the floor and the frame. Then he screws the side into a horizontal brace. FWI, I don’t have a brake for bending sheet metal so I will be using the hdpe (1/4 inch).

[CampNBrew2]

You should be able to find a local plastics shop/distributor who can get you that sheet. Its expensive stuff no matter which way you go.

[JRTJH]

You should be able to find a local plastics shop/distributor who can get you that sheet. Its expensive stuff no matter which way you go.

I paid $60 for a 4x8 sheet of 1/4" HPDE at Menards. I could have special ordered the 1/8" sheets (not carried in store stock) for $49 but shipping per sheet was (if I remember the quote correctly) $70, making the 1/8" thick HPDE almost double the price of the thicker sheets.

If there's a Menards nearby, they should have the black 1/4" sheets in stock.

https://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/panel-products/plastic-utility-panels/1-4-x-4-x-8-hdpe-panel/blkhdpe48x96x220/p-1561703293089-c-14048.htm

[danf]

Update: I still don't have my camper due to Covid. It's been at the dealer since March since having the floor replaced at the dealer. The dealer has been closed and are just barely opening back up.



Interestingly Keystone send me a letter with:


"Because we are so confident in this product, Keystone is willing to extend the limited one-year warranty on the “NEXT GENERATION” composite flooring material for twelve months from the repair date. In addition, Keystone will extend the limited one-year warranty for twelve months from the repair date on all of our workmanship which is applicable to the floor replacement, including: (a) slide-out operation; (b) exterior seams and joints; (c) sidewall lower skirt metal; (d) LP gas system; (e) electrical system; (f) fresh water system; and (g) plumbing system"


So that's nice. They must really take them apart to fix them. I'd love to see how they do it from just a pure curiosity perspective. I'm dying (well not enough to brave covid) to see how it looks.

[CampNBrew2]

I assume they replaced it with their new "water resistant composite" flooring they keep bragging about in their sales pitch? It's nice to see the manufacturers finally embracing and moving on with technology after so many years of rotted floors in trailers.
I hope you have many happy outings once you get it back.

[Summergirl]

[QUOTE=danf;394410]Update: I still don't have my camper due to Covid. It's been at the dealer since March since having the floor replaced at the dealer. The dealer has been closed and are just barely opening back up.

I am waiting to see how yours turned out. Ours is scheduled to go to the Oregon plant for replacement next month. I have read and seen pictures of one that came back and the owners were not happy. Hope they are getting better at doing them with so many to be done.

[6.2 Superduty]

My 2018 269rls came back from the Indiana floor replacement plant about six weeks ago. My dealer took care of a few trim items to make it satisfactory. I was denied a tour of the floor replacement plant. Total time without trailer,four months.

[Roose17]

[QUOTE=danf;394410].... I have read and seen pictures of one that came back and the owners were not happy. Hope they are getting better at doing them with so many to be done.


Ours gets picked up next week to head to Indiana. I hope they extend the warranty for the repair work beyond six months; because it can take months to find an issue. I am curious if besides fixing the floor they are actually addressing the causes of the water damage. We have floor damage under the bunks, along the entrance door and under the front baggage doors. I have enough sealant and Dicor on this camper to cover 2 units. Can you share where you read others bad experience? --Thanks

[NotyetMHCowner]

Subscribed.

I will be doing this repair myself, unfortunately. I have to take out the kitchen slide too. I am curious how your repair was done at the factory, Dan. Luckily I dont have a large space to repair, but under the slide is the biggest hurdle.

[danf]

I finally got it back. The dealer/factory had it since Sept 2019. The floor itself looks pretty good. They had to have lifted the body off the unit to repair it. The walls rest on the floor right on top of the vinyl. They cut all the electrical and plumbing lines where they go into the basement and then used junction boxes and adapters to put everything back together. I'm not sure they took the fridge out. I suspect they just lifted it along with the walls. The sink definitely was removed along with shower and rest of bathroom. They did not remove the coroplast. They cut a hole under the shower and under the heater and taped them back.


There are lots of small issues though:
- The floor is similar in feel to the original wood one. There are places where there is some sag. It also seems to be more solid in other places. The floor does creak in places.
- The kitchen sink base creaks. Haven't looked, but I don't think it was screwed down well.
- The shower had all the wall rivets broken and the two screws that you can see for the base are there but they didn't penetrate the floor.
- I had replaced the mouse door with a plug in type cord. They evidently broke the outlet and replaced it. I'm guessing they didn't disconnect it before lifting the body. Unfortunately their replacement is a wicked hack job.
- They evidently put the heater vent pipes back on the heater, but didn't tighten the band clamps. Two of them disconnected and fell into the basement.
-There is finger width gap in the rear of the unit between the wall and floor. It appears that the replacement floor was a little short. Maybe all units are like this and there is some caulking in there that they didn't put back. I suspect it's the same in the front, but there is board that covers the gap.
- The plumbing is a hack job. They strained the pipes to make them mate. I'll have to watch closely to see if they do not leak.
- The toilet was not put back in the same orientation. It should have been rotated away from the sink. Knee room is a problem now.
- The shade stays at the bottom of each window that hold the shade in place when you drive around are all broken.
- The microwave round piece that the glass plate sits on is broken. It's like the camper had a wicked rough ride.
- There is some missing trim.
- The fresh water drain cap was missing.
- Strangely, the unit has a different battery box.

So anyway, a lot of that is easy fix, but a pain. I haven't run the heater, but everything seems to work.

[Summergirl]

Your dealer should be aware of he issues and correct them.
Ours is at the factory in Oregon right now. Hopefully it will come back okay.

[danf]

The dealer is getting some trim and the shower rivet things. I haven't told them about the heater vents...you wouldn't know unless you took off the cover to the heater. You wouldn't know about the gap in the rear unless you took off the electrical cover. Once I get those heater vents back on I'm going to let it sit overnight with the heat on and a carbon monoxide alarm nearby. If they didn't put the vents on, I have no expectation that the exhaust is installed right.



I'll just pick up the parts when they come in and do everything myself. It will be easier and less time than taking it in.



I was told the dealer gets 1.5 hrs to make the camper presentable. There is only so much they will do.

[DCARLTON]

After hearing this, I am glad they bought ours back. My understanding, in speaking with the guy who was in charge of this operation (January 2019), he told me they basically took it apart, lifting the walls, removing the slides, getting it back down to just the trailer/floor system. Then the floor was removed and replaced. At this point I'm wondering what floor would have been in ours as this was early 2019 before the announcement of the new flooring system.

Once the floor was completed, it would be totally rebuilt . It sounds like they did that to yours. However, people already complain about quality control and workmanship on New campers, sounds like it's worse on rebuilt ones.

We turned down the offer for a rebuilt camper (ours was only 6 months old at the time). I would have hoped that you would have received your camper back in almost perfect condition.

Don't get me wrong though, we loved that 30RIPR. It was light weight, towed like a dream, had a great floor plan and for us was the perfect camper.

One question for you on yours, did the dry weight and tongue weight change? I have to believe their new flooring system weighed more than the previous floor.

[danf]

After hearing this, I am glad they bought ours back. My understanding, in speaking with the guy who was in charge of this operation (January 2019), he told me they basically took it apart, lifting the walls, removing the slides, getting it back down to just the trailer/floor system. Then the floor was removed and replaced. At this point I'm wondering what floor would have been in ours as this was early 2019 before the announcement of the new flooring system.

Once the floor was completed, it would be totally rebuilt . It sounds like they did that to yours. However, people already complain about quality control and workmanship on New campers, sounds like it's worse on rebuilt ones.

We turned down the offer for a rebuilt camper (ours was only 6 months old at the time). I would have hoped that you would have received your camper back in almost perfect condition.

Don't get me wrong though, we loved that 30RIPR. It was light weight, towed like a dream, had a great floor plan and for us was the perfect camper.

One question for you on yours, did the dry weight and tongue weight change? I have to believe their new flooring system weighed more than the previous floor.


I can't tell. I tow with an F250 with overloads so if weight was 3-400 pounds more, I probably wouldn't even notice. Plus it was empty when I towed it back.



The first time I went to the dealer, they didn't even clean it out or wash it. There was saw dust and bits and pieces of construction debri all over.



Doing these floors is definitely a rush job. You can tell.

[BrooksFam]

New member here, new to trailer, not new to RV'ing. Have had several motorhomes in the past.

Taking delivery of a 2020 Keystone Bullet 291RLS in a week, but this thread now has me a little nervous. I guess I made need to do some preventative work if nothing has changed with the design.

Would a heavy coat of truck bed liner or undercoating help this at all?

[Gegrad]

New member here, new to trailer, not new to RV'ing. Have had several motorhomes in the past.

Taking delivery of a 2020 Keystone Bullet 291RLS in a week, but this thread now has me a little nervous. I guess I made need to do some preventative work if nothing has changed with the design.

Would a heavy coat of truck bed liner or undercoating help this at all?

Others can chime in, but my understanding is that the 2020s have had design changes that *should* make them less susceptible to the problems that plagued the 2016-2019 units.

[BrooksFam]

Others can chime in, but my understanding is that the 2020s have had design changes that *should* make them less susceptible to the problems that plagued the 2016-2019 units.

Thanks for the feedback. Was wondering if that may be the case, but will contact my dealer tomorrow to see if they have any updated information.

[Jstevens]

After hearing this, I am glad they bought ours back. My understanding, in speaking with the guy who was in charge of this operation (January 2019), he told me they basically took it apart, lifting the walls, removing the slides, getting it back down to just the trailer/floor system. Then the floor was removed and replaced. At this point I'm wondering what floor would have been in ours as this was early 2019 before the announcement of the new flooring system.

Once the floor was completed, it would be totally rebuilt . It sounds like they did that to yours. However, people already complain about quality control and workmanship on New campers, sounds like it's worse on rebuilt ones.

We turned down the offer for a rebuilt camper (ours was only 6 months old at the time). I would have hoped that you would have received your camper back in almost perfect condition.

Don't get me wrong though, we loved that 30RIPR. It was light weight, towed like a dream, had a great floor plan and for us was the perfect camper.

One question for you on yours, did the dry weight and tongue weight change? I have to believe their new flooring system weighed more than the previous floor.


Just curious how you went about having them buy yours back? I am located in Nova Scotia Canada and they want to ship our 2018 243bhs back to Indiana for this floor replacement. And we are crazy nervous as it’s a 6000km round trip on the unit. Really just want to get out of it and into a new one.

[danf]

Thanks for the feedback. Was wondering if that may be the case, but will contact my dealer tomorrow to see if they have any updated information.


IIRC, the move to the plastic floor was mid year. So depending, you could get one with the older cardboard floor. If you look under the apron up at the floor, for example in the wheel well, and see darco, you have a cardboard floor. There is no darco on the plastic floor. If you see black plastic, you have a plastic floor.


I would not accept one with a cardboard floor.

[Carrottop]

Was this primarily an issue with the bullets? I have been reading all these horror stories and keep checking the floor of our Passport for soft spots but have not found any. Ours is a 2017 and fingers crossed have not had any water intrusion issues.

[BrooksFam]

IIRC, the move to the plastic floor was mid year. So depending, you could get one with the older cardboard floor. If you look under the apron up at the floor, for example in the wheel well, and see darco, you have a cardboard floor. There is no darco on the plastic floor. If you see black plastic, you have a plastic floor.


I would not accept one with a cardboard floor.

Thanks for the information. I talked to the salesman and of course he has not heard of this issue, nor had the service manager, go figure.

I gave him the information and asked him to check and send me a picture.

Unfortunately, I am in S Carolina and can not look at it as its in Oregon. My wife and son are goin to look at it next Monday and I will give them this information along with my pre purchase check list which is getting longer by the minute :(

[danf]

Here's a video with the new floor showing the squeaks. This is by far the most annoying problem. This is in front of the sink.



Can't post a long enough video. Hopefully this works.

[Beemer Phil]

Was this flooring issue for one particular model or was it all trailers built in certain years? What was the complaint that resulted in the floors being replaced? I have a 2018 2920BH travel trailer. Do periodic roof inspections but did have one small leak under the bathroom sink. After close inspection I found the leak to be the outside water connection for the black tank flush. I also found the connection under the sink for the flush was not tight and water leaked down the outside wall and found a way to get under the vinyl. I cut a flap in the vinyl to insure everything dried out. The only thing that was damaged was the paper they cover the floor with prior to the vinyl going down.

[08quadram]

New member here, new to trailer, not new to RV'ing. Have had several motorhomes in the past.

Taking delivery of a 2020 Keystone Bullet 291RLS in a week, but this thread now has me a little nervous. I guess I made need to do some preventative work if nothing has changed with the design.

Would a heavy coat of truck bed liner or undercoating help this at all?The 291rls is a new model in 2020. I don't think they made any with the crap flooring material. I believe they were/ all made with the new hyper-deck.

[BrooksFam]

Good to know

[IMASAP]

Others can chime in, but my understanding is that the 2020s have had design changes that *should* make them less susceptible to the problems that plagued the 2016-2019 units.

Is my 2015 Bullet somehow different than the 2016 and up?

[mikec557]

I don't want to step on anyone's toes, but I read a couple comments saying the floor is "cardboard". Is it not in fact luan? Luan being an actual wood product similar to a very thin layer of plywood.

Regarding the plastic flooring layers that took the place of luan, our 2020 Cougar 26RBSWE was made in 10/2019. We have the darco covered luan. I don't know when Keystone began using the new plastic.

[DCARLTON]

I can't wait to hear the cause. My 30RIPR is an opposing slide with an island in the middle. The damage on mine was behind the island, in the middle of the room, no water source around and hard to believe that water came from the tires. Someone I met on Facebook with the exact same model, his was in front of the island, in the middle of the room, no where near a water source.

[DCARLTON]

The floor is a fiber board, almost like cardboard, on top of an aluminum frame, with styrofoam then a fiber board on the bottom. It's not luan, if it was, it would have held up better. When water comes in contact with this stuff, it slowly disintegrates, and the foam wicks it to the top layer.

[kcamp99186]

I have a 2015 30RIPR as well and my floor has been going soft for 2 years now. Keeps getting worse. The affected area is between the slide outs, all around the island. Was thinking of supporting the slides and removing/replacing the floor, but am now considering trading it for something with a real floor. Might change my mind if Keystone is making repairs under a warranty or defect status.

[Roose17]

Got word from Keystone warranty on our repair. The cause was a faulty seal on the main entry door and the belt line skirt molding along parts of the trailer. Once water penetrated the unit the paper layer and the thin particle board soaked it up like a sponge. The new hyper-deck is not supposed to wick water like the old style.

However the true problem with the 2017-2018 units is not the flooring, but the seals ( or lack of ) which allowed water to penetrate the unit.

[danf]

I don't want to step on anyone's toes, but I read a couple comments saying the floor is "cardboard". Is it not in fact luan? Luan being an actual wood product similar to a very thin layer of plywood.

Regarding the plastic flooring layers that took the place of luan, our 2020 Cougar 26RBSWE was made in 10/2019. We have the darco covered luan. I don't know when Keystone began using the new plastic.


Yeah I call it cardboard. It's actually luan type of material that has outer cardboard layers with wood in the middle. It's like you took a piece of luan and then applied a thin layer of shoebox cardboard to the outside surfaces. The unfortunate thing is the cardboard layer (since it's on the outside surface) is what is glued to the styrofoam and frame members to make the floor sandwich. When water hits that cardboard, it just disintegrates and delaminates while also acting as a sponge. Imagine leaving a shoebox or cereal box outside in the rain. That's what happens to it. The "cardboard" floor is what it is and it would be mostly fine except that it has zero tolerance for getting wet.



I don't know when they switched to the new floor. I seem to recall reading that it was mid 2020 model year.

[DCARLTON]

I would call it cardboard or worse. These are pics of mine before it went back

The first 3 pictures are from the bottom looking up, the 4th picture was underneath the flooring (topside)

https://www.keystoneforums.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1198&pictureid=7105

https://www.keystoneforums.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1198&pictureid=7104

https://www.keystoneforums.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1198&pictureid=7103

This was inside
https://www.keystoneforums.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1198&pictureid=7106

[stockboro]

I can't wait to hear the cause. My 30RIPR is an opposing slide with an island in the middle. The damage on mine was behind the island, in the middle of the room, no water source around and hard to believe that water came from the tires. Someone I met on Facebook with the exact same model, his was in front of the island, in the middle of the room, no where near a water source.
Middle of the room water could be from a slide. We discovered the large slide on our 2018 29rld Cougar was missing both the outside and inside slide seals from the factory. Water was in the middle of the floor after a rain when the big slide was retracted in. Don't think the floor was damaged, but the cabenets have damage next to the floor where they soaked up the water and split.

[kenm500]

2017 Premier 29rkpr. Numerous soft spots without evidence of water coming in anywhere. Several dealers have told me its a known problem and factory defect. However being outside the 1 year warranty, I'm told I don't have many options. The dealers won't fix it because they would need to replace the entire floor, it it's simply not worth it. So basically I have a 3 year old trailer that looks brand new except for the floor.....and it's WORTHLESS! Keystone should be ashamed! Does anyone else have the same issue? Any recommendations out there

[JRTJH]

2017 Premier 29rkpr. Numerous soft spots without evidence of water coming in anywhere. Several dealers have told me its a known problem and factory defect. However being outside the 1 year warranty, I'm told I don't have many options. The dealers won't fix it because they would need to replace the entire floor, it it's simply not worth it. So basically I have a 3 year old trailer that looks brand new except for the floor.....and it's WORTHLESS! Keystone should be ashamed! Does anyone else have the same issue? Any recommendations out there

Contact Keystone Customer Service and discuss the problem with them. Be sure to have "vital facts" available: VIN, date of purchase, any maintenance records, any repair documentation, any problems not repaired/rejected during warranty, etc.

Keystone has a current "repair program" which addresses the specific issues you have. They return defective trailers to the factory where the trailer is disassembled and a new, improved floor is installed, all under a "goodwill repair". Whether your trailer qualifies for this type of program or not is up to the qualifications that were established by the factory. The only way you're going to know if you qualify is through your dealership or by contacting the factory.

It does no good to "complain and blame" at this point. Contact the factory, keep a positive attitude when talking with them, don't disparage or try to make it seem like you're a victim. In other words, find out if they'll help by talking with them (not about them).....

[kenm500]

All fair points. Thanks for this advice. Hopefully I will have some success.

[KenJFerguson]

Wow ...what a mess!

So glad to have found this thread so fast as I begin researching how to fix the same problem on a new-to-us 2014 22RBPR acquired foolishly by us newbies who felt the softness but didn't appreciate that it was a tip of the iceberg. Now back from our 2-month, 9000 miles maiden voyage addressing this issue is our #1 priority so I'll be reading this thread many, many times. Thank you and the commenters for sharing all the lessons learned.

[Summergirl]

Update:

So our trailer has been at the Pendleton plant in Oregon for 14 weeks now.
It has just gone into the work bay to begin the floor exchange. They say about two weeks to do this now. Then it will go into the inspection/testing bay. How long it will be there is anyone’s guess.
Hoping to get it back for the snow flies too much.
Will update more when we get it back. That I am sure will be sometime Dec.

[tundrwd]

Just curious what someone does who might have this same issue - but their dealer has now gone out of business. The dealer we purchased the unit through went out of business April, 2020.

Not sure if anyone left around is a "dealer" for Keystone right now in my area
either.

[JRTJH]

Just curious what someone does who might have this same issue - but their dealer has now gone out of business. The dealer we purchased the unit through went out of business April, 2020.

Not sure if anyone left around is a "dealer" for Keystone right now in my area
either.

Call Keystone Customer Service at (866) 425-4369 and ask them which dealership they want you to use that's in your local area.

[wbdvt]

I have the same issue on a 2014 Cougar 21RBS. When I took it in to the dealer to determine cause and repair options, they said it is a wet floor due to leaks thru seam molding that was not properly sealed at the factory. The dealer contacted Keystone who has said it is out of warranty and won't do anything about it. The dealer tried to escalate it in Keystone but received the same answer and now is telling me they have done all they can.

I would like to pursue this with Keystone once I get all the information from the dealer. So some questions as I see some people have had some success with Keystone on this issue:

Did you contact Keystone directly or did your dealer?
Do you have any contact info that I could contact at Keystone?
Any other helpful info?

Thanks in advance.

[JRTJH]

I have the same issue on a 2014 Cougar 21RBS. When I took it in to the dealer to determine cause and repair options, they said it is a wet floor due to leaks thru seam molding that was not properly sealed at the factory. The dealer contacted Keystone who has said it is out of warranty and won't do anything about it. The dealer tried to escalate it in Keystone but received the same answer and now is telling me they have done all they can.

I would like to pursue this with Keystone once I get all the information from the dealer. So some questions as I see some people have had some success with Keystone on this issue:

Did you contact Keystone directly or did your dealer?
Do you have any contact info that I could contact at Keystone?
Any other helpful info?

Thanks in advance.


This isn't necessarily "helpful information" but is "reality based information"

The people who have been successful in being considered for floor repair after warranty all own trailers that are significantly newer than yours. Most are 2017/2018/2019 year models. Yours is a 2014 model, the 2021 models are on the showroom floor. That means yours is a 7 year old model...

My guess would be that there were some "engineering changes" (possibly manufacturing shortcuts) that were incorporated in constructing those year models and possibly the reason why they are being considered and your year is being excluded includes much more than "just year model/age" of the trailer. Keystone keeps their cards "very close to their chest" when dealing with/approving out of warranty work. My guess is that there's much more involved than just the fact that your trailer has a damaged floor and they repaired someone else's, why not mine too ???

[CampNBrew2]

due to leaks thru seam molding that was not properly sealed at the factory.
Thanks in advance.

Which seam? The roof to sidewall transition or the roof to front cap transition? Most leaks are from these points.
Regardless, the factory warranty requires inspections and resealing almost before the trailer is sold. They are not made well to begin with so they put the responsibility on the buyer to maintain those seals. Like John mentioned, unfortunately I doubt they will do anything for you on a 2014 trailer.
Roof inspections and resealing are a frustrating part of RV ownership, especially when it seems there must be a better way of sealing these. The way they are sealed is what the market will bear costwise.

[Summergirl]

Update:

Trailer is on its way back to the dealer. The dealer has provided the dealer ship money to clean the inside and inspect the outside.
Hoping to see it this weekend and get the first real look at the floor and finishing.
Will update with the good and not so good.
Thank you Danf for posting the issue with your floor. It helped mitigate the fixing of ours.

[wbdvt]

It is the lower seam and while sealed on top, behind the strip there is no sealing so water would lead in from the screws behind the plastic cover on the strip. Per the dealer, there should have been sealant behind the strip.

Every year I do a full inspection of the roof and seals on all roof protrusions but would never have thought to pull off the trim strips to determine if sealant had been applied at the factory. This is a defect that would never be found during the warranty period.

Since it is obvious that Keystone will not step up to the plate, my only recourse is to try a repair myself. I did post, on this forum, a repair I have seen on YouTube that looks promising. However, while it has logged 130 views, no comments so it must not be a repair people on this forum have done.

[JRTJH]

It is the lower seam and while sealed on top, behind the strip there is no sealing so water would lead in from the screws behind the plastic cover on the strip. Per the dealer, there should have been sealant behind the strip.

Every year I do a full inspection of the roof and seals on all roof protrusions but would never have thought to pull off the trim strips to determine if sealant had been applied at the factory. This is a defect that would never be found during the warranty period.

Since it is obvious that Keystone will not step up to the plate, my only recourse is to try a repair myself. I did post, on this forum, a repair I have seen on YouTube that looks promising. However, while it has logged 130 views, no comments so it must not be a repair people on this forum have done.

Do you know if the statement from your dealer ever made it to Keystone? Often dealers will tell customers one thing but never relate that same information to Keystone. It's a "play with words" that some dealerships use to blame the factory for something they don't want to take the time to document and repair because there's just not enough profit to make it profitable for the dealership... So, they tell the customer it's the factory's fault and tell the factory it's the customer's fault....

I'm not suggesting that YOUR dealer did this, just asking if you're aware whether the dealer reported to Keystone what he told you: "there should have been sealant behind the strip." Without that information, it's no surprise that Keystone would disapprove any repair....

[sourdough]

It is the lower seam and while sealed on top, behind the strip there is no sealing so water would lead in from the screws behind the plastic cover on the strip. Per the dealer, there should have been sealant behind the strip.

Every year I do a full inspection of the roof and seals on all roof protrusions but would never have thought to pull off the trim strips to determine if sealant had been applied at the factory. This is a defect that would never be found during the warranty period.

Since it is obvious that Keystone will not step up to the plate, my only recourse is to try a repair myself. I did post, on this forum, a repair I have seen on YouTube that looks promising. However, while it has logged 130 views, no comments so it must not be a repair people on this forum have done.


As John has noted, what the dealer tells you vs what they tell Keystone can be 2 very different things that then determine very different results.

I had one obvious warranty issue declined by Keystone after I told the service advisor what was wrong and showed her. After the refusal I had the SM provide me the documentation sent to Keystone - nothing like the issue and it was obvious why it was declined. The SM intervened, rewrote the submission, it was approved and the young lady left.

Another point about them not wanting to mess with warranty work; just had a big job completed on my slides recovering all the darco after it began fraying on the first trip. I was neck deep in the solution and having it presented to Keystone with the SM telling me it was a long shot. Talked to the tech that was writing it up and he told me it was a big solution for some frayed darco and he might need my help. He didn't understand how I work. Things were getting iffy and I told the SM I needed him involved in the conversation with Keystone and I would work down the chain of command. We both did our thing and all the repairs (slides, key tv etc. etc.) were approved as written up. As the repairs on the slides (a big job) drug on I visited the dealership, service advisor, SM and tech every Friday. The work took a LONG time and was very involved. The SM and tech both told me that the hours that had been allotted for it (far more than what would normally be approved) were still going to be about 10 hours short. I got those approved as well BUT the point of the tale was what the tech told me toward the completion of the job; he knew it was going to be a big job, a big pita. He did not want to do it so he bid a number higher than what he thought Keystone would approve so it would be denied. He then said I never thought you could get something like that approved. I told him "you said I would need to get involved....and I did." All of that (I'm sorry) to illustrate that there are lots of things that go on with warranty work and getting it approved. From Keystone, to dealership, to service advisor, to service manager to tech....to the OWNER - they all have a bearing on how a warranty claim can/will turn out.

[wiredgeorge]

It is the lower seam and while sealed on top, behind the strip there is no sealing so water would lead in from the screws behind the plastic cover on the strip. Per the dealer, there should have been sealant behind the strip.

Every year I do a full inspection of the roof and seals on all roof protrusions but would never have thought to pull off the trim strips to determine if sealant had been applied at the factory. This is a defect that would never be found during the warranty period.

Since it is obvious that Keystone will not step up to the plate, my only recourse is to try a repair myself. I did post, on this forum, a repair I have seen on YouTube that looks promising. However, while it has logged 130 views, no comments so it must not be a repair people on this forum have done.


Post the URL to the youtube video and I bet you get some responses here.

[JRTJH]

wbdvt,

Let's take your trailer as an example and "lay out two entirely different reports for exactly the same problem"...

Let's begin with the "setup":

You take the trailer to the dealer, they see the front seam was assembled incorrectly during trailer assembly and that there is water damage to the front wall, the front insulation and the floor luan decking is soft in a 6 square foot area around the curbside bedside table/cabinet. The floor damage extends from the bed pedestal to the sidewall. The dealer realizes the repair will be extremely labor intensive, doesn't really want to do the repair and knows that Keystone will not authorize all the costs to repair it. In other words, it's going to cost the dealership if they take on the work.....

First scenario:

The dealership sends a report to Keystone stating the following:

Example 1:
The front cap/roof membrane junction shows evidence of long term leaks and water damage. The front interior wall of the trailer is delaminated, the insulation is saturated with water and the floor is damaged in a 6 sqft area extending from the bed pedestal to the trailer sidewall. There is evidence of DICOR sealant application over the OEM sealant, but when or how that was applied is not reflected in the owner's documentation. We estimate 30 manhours and approximately $600 in parts to repair the trailer.

Example 2:
The front cap/roof membrane junction shows evidence of long term leaks and water damage. The interior wall of the trailer is delaminated, the insulation is saturated with water and the floor is damaged in a 6 sqft area extending from the bed pedestal to the trailer sidewall. Upon careful examination, it is evident that upon assembly, the front cap/roof membrane junction was not properly sealed as the trailer moved down the assembly line. That junction, without the appropriate sealant will not protect the trailer from water intrusion. It is our belief that the trailer was improperly manufactured and no matter how diligent the owner's inspections and repair/resealing of the surface of that joint, water intrusion would still be probable. There is evidence that the owner has inspected and resealed that joint. There is evidence of appropriate repair/resealing in the past. It is our opinion that the defect originated at the factory during trailer assembly and no matter how diligent the owner has been, there is no reasonable expectation that he could have prevented this defect from causing the damage that is present.

We believe that the water intrusion began immediately upon the trailer leaving the assembly line and has been ongoing since then, even though the owner has performed all roof inspections and resealing requirements as recommended in the Owner's Manual. The repair of damage should be authorized by Keystone. We estimate that it will take about 30-35 manhours and approximately $600 to 800 in parts and material. Photos to support our evaluation are included with this request for post-warranty repair. Take particular note of photo marked #3 which clearly shows the area of missing factory sealant.

Consider both dealer reports and make a determination whether you think one would be better received by the factory and why....

What your dealership does "TO" you or "FOR" you can make all the difference in how Keystone reacts to their reports.

[Summergirl]

JRTJH: you are so right on the mark.
Your dealer is the source if it gets fixed or not.
Lots of reading here has taught me lots on how and when to push.
But still waitimg for our unit to arrive back to the dealer.
Hope the person that picked it up isn’t sleeping in it. Lol

[DavSki]

Danf, I'm preparing to take my 2018 330BHS 200 miles from my property in upstate PA to my selling dealer in Berlin NJ to be inspected for the missing butyl tape on the belly band. There's considerable cost in getting it there since I don't own a truck capable of towing it. I have just one question - was it worth it to you (all things considered) to have the manufacturer "fix" your floor. I'm on the fence because of the cost to transport, the unknown of whether or not they'll agree to repair, and finally having no idea how long they'll have my trailer if they do in fact, agree to repair. Your thoughts appreciated.


Dave

[danf]

Danf, I'm preparing to take my 2018 330BHS 200 miles from my property in upstate PA to my selling dealer in Berlin NJ to be inspected for the missing butyl tape on the belly band. There's considerable cost in getting it there since I don't own a truck capable of towing it. I have just one question - was it worth it to you (all things considered) to have the manufacturer "fix" your floor. I'm on the fence because of the cost to transport, the unknown of whether or not they'll agree to repair, and finally having no idea how long they'll have my trailer if they do in fact, agree to repair. Your thoughts appreciated.


Dave


Given my camper was worthless and unusable prior to replacing the floor, I would say it's worth it to get the floor replaced.

[Summergirl]

Last update:
Received the trailer back today after 20 weeks of not seeing it.
The floor replacement is great. Looking through out the unit you would never know there was an issue.
When looking closely you can see we’re the wiring has been spliced and water lines. Overall it looks great. The tacked down some trim that wasn’t right from factory as well as replaced the decal in the glass doors that had rubbed.
Overall experience - took them way too long. From the time it was dropped off to return was 20 weeks. No this was not the dealer. Transport arrangements from Canada were horrendous due to COVID-19. Parts coming from the east coast to west coast took forever. The fact the west coast plant isn’t geared for floor replacement as well as natural disasters (forest fires) and COVID did bode for a quick turn around. Originally told 6-8 weeks.
The floor looks great. So far we haven’t been able to test anything out. They did winterized the system including filling the hot water tank with RV anti freeze. Which we have drained and will flush out this week. Will test all appliances this week as well before putting it to bed for the winter. Spring can’t come fast enough.

[DavSki]

Thank you sir. Finally dropped it at the dealer on December 11. Hoping to hear some feedback by next week. Merry Christmas!

[kfp673]

Thank you sir. Finally dropped it at the dealer on December 11. Hoping to hear some feedback by next week. Merry Christmas!

Hello All,

First post on this forum and regular on others. I am curious to hear how you made out with your factory replacement. We have a 2018 Keystone Outback. It was picked up 12/27 for factory floor replacement for similar issues as mentioned in this thread. Apparently this is a common issue right now. It was returned to the dealer last week. We went to pick it up on Friday and after a 30 minute inspection we declined to take it. They did a great job with the floor. Everything else is a mess. They did a terrible job with reassembly. Every place that required sealing looks like it was done by a toddler. Total mess, faucets installed backward, missing screws, damaged seals, silicone smeared all over everything, slide not aligned, ripped carpet, shower pulling off the wall, and on and on. I could not be more disappointed. We sent it to Keystone very well cared for but with soft spots on the floor. It came back with a good floor and everything else destroyed. It sounds like Keystone is replacing a lot of floors right now but this is the only thread I have found of people who have had it done. Anyone else have this poor of an experience? For those of you that had it done, be sure to take your time and look close. Look under the camper at the dark wrap (ours was torn), look at your decals (ours was gashed), pull out your drawers (ours no longer slide nicely) and review everything. I believe they are using a very inexperienced team to perform the reassembly and now we are left with a big monthly payment for a destroyed trailer. Hope you are all having better luck than I am!

[DavSki]

Hello All,

First post on this forum and regular on others. I am curious to hear how you made out with your factory replacement. We have a 2018 Keystone Outback. It was picked up 12/27 for factory floor replacement for similar issues as mentioned in this thread. Apparently this is a common issue right now. It was returned to the dealer last week. We went to pick it up on Friday and after a 30 minute inspection we declined to take it. They did a great job with the floor. Everything else is a mess. They did a terrible job with reassembly. Every place that required sealing looks like it was done by a toddler. Total mess, faucets installed backward, missing screws, damaged seals, silicone smeared all over everything, slide not aligned, ripped carpet, shower pulling off the wall, and on and on. I could not be more disappointed. We sent it to Keystone very well cared for but with soft spots on the floor. It came back with a good floor and everything else destroyed. It sounds like Keystone is replacing a lot of floors right now but this is the only thread I have found of people who have had it done. Anyone else have this poor of an experience? For those of you that had it done, be sure to take your time and look close. Look under the camper at the dark wrap (ours was torn), look at your decals (ours was gashed), pull out your drawers (ours no longer slide nicely) and review everything. I believe they are using a very inexperienced team to perform the reassembly and now we are left with a big monthly payment for a destroyed trailer. Hope you are all having better luck than I am!


KFP,


Keystone did eventually agree to repair my Bullet 330BHS. However, it took so long to schedule a pickup, (they weren't going to pick it up until March 8th which meant we might not see it until June) we decided to have it hauled back to our property so we could use it for the entire season. Keystone agreed to pick it up directly from our property at the end of October so it could be repaired during the "off season".


Dave

[Aloha]

Do these flooring issues occur on 2020 or 2021 models? I was just about to purchase a 1700BH but now I am scared to death after reading these posts.

[JRTJH]

Do these flooring issues occur on 2020 or 2021 models? I was just about to purchase a 1700BH but now I am scared to death after reading these posts.

The Keystone website lists Hyper Deck™ flooring as standard equipment on Bullet Crossfire models. If that information is correct, then the "wet luan/cardboard floor problem" will not be a factor. You might want to contact Keystone Customer Service during regular business hours to confirm that the website is correct. Their phone number is: (866) 425-4369

[danf]

Hello All,

First post on this forum and regular on others. I am curious to hear how you made out with your factory replacement. We have a 2018 Keystone Outback. It was picked up 12/27 for factory floor replacement for similar issues as mentioned in this thread. Apparently this is a common issue right now. It was returned to the dealer last week. We went to pick it up on Friday and after a 30 minute inspection we declined to take it. They did a great job with the floor. Everything else is a mess. They did a terrible job with reassembly. Every place that required sealing looks like it was done by a toddler. Total mess, faucets installed backward, missing screws, damaged seals, silicone smeared all over everything, slide not aligned, ripped carpet, shower pulling off the wall, and on and on. I could not be more disappointed. We sent it to Keystone very well cared for but with soft spots on the floor. It came back with a good floor and everything else destroyed. It sounds like Keystone is replacing a lot of floors right now but this is the only thread I have found of people who have had it done. Anyone else have this poor of an experience? For those of you that had it done, be sure to take your time and look close. Look under the camper at the dark wrap (ours was torn), look at your decals (ours was gashed), pull out your drawers (ours no longer slide nicely) and review everything. I believe they are using a very inexperienced team to perform the reassembly and now we are left with a big monthly payment for a destroyed trailer. Hope you are all having better luck than I am!


That's pretty much it. Good job on the floor, but most everything else suffered. Our floor squeaks a bunch right by the kitchen. It could be due to the cabinets not being screwed down well. I think this new flooring is hard to get a screw in at an angle. I found a bunch (around shower, etc) that were angled in, but didn't bite into the floor. Our slide works ok, but the strip of carpet that the slide slides over never came back from the factory. The toilet was reattached at a new angle where your knees are now into the sink. The shower walls are now wavy and lifted off the walls particularly at the bottom. They broke off all the gromet push fasteners that hold the shower stall walls onto the bathroom walls. The dealer gave me some new ones. I had changed the mouse door into a plug and it came back with an entirely new plug with a broken cover. I have no idea what happened there. The coroplast was cut in several places. They taped it back but I'm going to have to do something long term to fix their fix. There is no way it's going to hold. None of the heater pipes were reattached to the heater. I had to pull back the coroplast and reattach them. There was trim missing. The dealer ordered me some. The round thing with wheels that spins in the microwave was broken in half. The dealer got me a new one. The unit came back with a frozen and broken water heater. The dealer didn't know what happened. I had the dealer winterize it before it was sent to the factory. I suspect that maybe they tested the water connections after they replaced the floor and didn't bother to winterize it again. The dealer ate the expense for a new water heater. One of the dump handles came back broken. The plastic things that hold the blinds at the bottom of the windows are all broken now. There are many fit/finish things like gaps. The doors shut tho.



I think it had a rough ride there and back. That would explain some of the problems.


IIRC they were doing 3 or 4 per day. So it's a probably a bunch of people running full speed somewhat uncoordinated with lots of chance for overlooking things and breaking things.

[Clydaho]

WOW! Nine pages of good information and instructions for another project on our 2019 Bullet 290BHSWE. I am having flashbacks of driving 6 hours through a monsoon in Wisconsin last fall. How much water blasted up in the wheel wells? All of it! Swell.
When did Keystone start using the Hyperdeck? What is the chance our Bullet has it? If I contact Keystone with my VIN will they be able to look it up on the build sheet? Or should I just plan on stopping by Menard's on my way through Minnesota next month for a sheet of 1/4" HDPE, some tubes of good caulk and a big box of 1 1/2" self tappers?
Thanks for all the good info on this subject!

[p3t3]

Chiming in here with the same issue on a 2019 Sunset Trail 289qb. After taking it out of winter storage we noticed the vinyl flooring was loose in front, camp-side. Took it to the dealer who told us they'd seen this before, they took pics and filed a warranty claim with Keystone. 2019's have a 3 year structural warranty. Keystone approved the claim. About a week later they arranged transport and shockingly it was picked up, from our driveway, the same day.

Keystone is offering an additional 3 year structural warranty as well as a 1 year on anything caused by their repair work. Reading this thread, I will certainly go over the rig with a fine-toothed comb when it comes back.

Up to now, I would have said this was a pretty exemplary way to service the customer... but now I'll wait to get the end-product back for I make a final judgement. :cool: Also, we're trading the trailer for a factory order we're waiting on. I sure hope it doesn't take more than the 8 weeks we were told.

[p3t3]

WOW! Nine pages of good information and instructions for another project on our 2019 Bullet 290BHSWE. I am having flashbacks of driving 6 hours through a monsoon in Wisconsin last fall. How much water blasted up in the wheel wells? All of it! Swell.
When did Keystone start using the Hyperdeck? What is the chance our Bullet has it? If I contact Keystone with my VIN will they be able to look it up on the build sheet? Or should I just plan on stopping by Menard's on my way through Minnesota next month for a sheet of 1/4" HDPE, some tubes of good caulk and a big box of 1 1/2" self tappers?
Thanks for all the good info on this subject!

Since our Sunset Trail is a 2019 and has the old flooring (and bad seals) I think it's a safe bet your Bullet has it too. Might be worth an inspection and moisture test at your dealer before the structural warranty runs out. If they handle your claim like ours, they'll even offer to arrange replacement of the floor toward the end of the season if that's your preference.

[Elmobile]

Am I glad I found this thread, let me explain...

Technically I am the owner of a 2016 Bullet 248RKS. Well almost. In order to secure this trailer I have put $1K down on this 248RKS which was coming to my local RV dealer on an exchange. While not refundable I would have to buy a unit from them if I choose not to take this particular one. The unit arrived at the dealer on April 24th and I was supposed to receive it on May 05. Due to the 3rd wave of C19, it has been delayed until June 06. We love the layout and my truck should have no issue pulling it. The main reason to get it was so that we could go visit my son in Manitoba and stay there without imposing on his family... So long haul in perspective :)

I was not aware of this chronic issue with the floor of this trailer and will definitely triple check any water penetration in the wheel wells...
Quick question so. In the last post there is a mention of a moisture test? What does it consist of. Is that something I can ask the dealer to do for me or should I gear up for it? As well there is also mention of some bad seals. Could I get more details on that, such as location and how to check where the water would have get through inside?

The dealer says that they have a 200 points check before delivering the camper... Wonder what that would be :D
Any advices would be greatly appreciated...

[sourdough]

Might take this with you and "compare notes" with what they do;

https://www.angelfire.com/trek/buenavistas/RV_checklists/PDI_V113_2.pdf

[p3t3]

In the last post there is a mention of a moisture test? What does it consist of. Is that something I can ask the dealer to do for me or should I gear up for it? As well there is also mention of some bad seals. Could I get more details on that, such as location and how to check where the water would have get through inside?

The dealer says that they have a 200 points check before delivering the camper... Wonder what that would be :D
Any advices would be greatly appreciated...

Any RV dealer should be able to use a moisture meter (https://www.amazon.com/Moisture-Meters/b?ie=UTF8&node=553270) to check in the walls, ceiling, floor, etc. for any pre-existing leaks. I would not count on them doing this proactively under the theory that if they don't know about an issue, they don't need to disclose it. As the customer - and as someone who's had this kind of issue in about half of the trailers I've owned - I'd insist on it. Especially given the known issues with this generation of Keystone units.

In my case, I don't actually know where the leak was. My dealer did an inspection and found no moisture in the walls or ceiling, and found no evidence of leaks from the roof or windows. It must be coming from the seal (or lack thereof) that goes around the seam where the walls meet the floor. I think that missing seal is why Keystone is fixing these under warranty even though water intrusion and damage is specifically excluded from their warranty.

If there is a moisture issue, I can't imagine a dealer would be able to keep your deposit, though they might try. Good luck! :)

[p3t3]

Also, Elmobile - one of my favorite guilty pleasure TV shows is The Curse of Oak Island. Could it be that you're from the very same Mahone Bay? ��

[Elmobile]

Thank you.
I have saved this document and will have a copy handy. I am going to ask the dealer a copy of the 200 points check list and have this one with me. There is also a number of questions that I want to ask.

[Elmobile]

P3T3,
Yes the island is only 30 kms for my place. It is quite a place... Been there a few time before they keep it really private!

[Shredder]

Well looks like I fell victim to this problem, the dealer did mention it was coming from the wheel wells and as I have not read all these posts yet but I see some of you are getting Keystone to repair, I am waiting for my dealer to get back after they took pictures, problem is I am out of my one year and they claim this isn't considered structural so not covered under 3 year structural warranty- WTF! I think I got screwed by my dealer and they said some Bullet's they had were sent back with this problem but supposedly my model was not the ones that had the issue. I think not!
Well wish me luck as I am not going down without a fight. I have only used the trailer 3 times so I believe I bought it like this, I know they did transfer it back and forth to their other store over 100 miles away- in the rain! I only drove it recently in the rain making it worst so I took it in.

[p3t3]

Well looks like I fell victim to this problem, the dealer did mention it was coming from the wheel wells and as I have not read all these posts yet but I see some of you are getting Keystone to repair, I am waiting for my dealer to get back after they took pictures, problem is I am out of my one year and they claim this isn't considered structural so not covered under 3 year structural warranty- WTF! I think I got screwed by my dealer and they said some Bullet's they had were sent back with this problem but supposedly my model was not the ones that had the issue. I think not!
Well wish me luck as I am not going down without a fight. I have only used the trailer 3 times so I believe I bought it like this, I know they did transfer it back and forth to their other store over 100 miles away- in the rain! I only drove it recently in the rain making it worst so I took it in.

You've got the right attitude - don't let the dealer steamroll you. You don't mention the year of your Bullet, but based on being within the 3 year structural warranty, I'm assuming 2019-ish. Our 2019 Sunset Trail was just repaired for this issue under the structural warranty (it was also outside the 1 year warranty). It only took about 5 weeks from authorization to delivery and we are very happy with the result with only a couple minor issues post-repair.

Good luck!

[Shredder]

You've got the right attitude - don't let the dealer steamroll you. You don't mention the year of your Bullet, but based on being within the 3 year structural warranty, I'm assuming 2019-ish. Our 2019 Sunset Trail was just repaired for this issue under the structural warranty (it was also outside the 1 year warranty). It only took about 5 weeks from authorization to delivery and we are very happy with the result with only a couple minor issues post-repair.

Good luck!That is great news, thank you. I did mention the year in the title:2019. The dealer told me the floor is not considered structural. Guess I have the wrong dealer. I hope I can get the floor repaired because the first thing I am going to do once repaired is rip out the dinette set and replace with a couch. The u-shaped dinette set is the most uncomfortable piece of furniture going! I also would like to know if my trailer has the new hyperdeck flooring, it sounds like it does not otherwise the floor wouldn't be so spongy from water damage. I hope if they repair it they replace the flooring with their hyperdeck.

[sourdough]

That is great news, thank you. I did mention the year in the title:2019. The dealer told me the floor is not considered structural. Guess I have the wrong dealer. I hope I can get the floor repaired because the first thing I am going to do once repaired is rip out the dinette set and replace with a couch. The u-shaped dinette set is the most uncomfortable piece of furniture going! I also would like to know if my trailer has the new hyperdeck flooring, it sounds like it does not otherwise the floor wouldn't be so spongy from water damage. I hope if they repair it they replace the flooring with their hyperdeck.


I would encourage you and everyone else to check your wheel well linings. If you have darco fabric in there COVER IT. If you have that fabric in the wheel wells and you travel much it is only when, not if, the fabric starts holding water against the bottom of the floor and ruins it. I've got all the pieces of uhmw cut to go on my MHC if I can ever get my eye surgeries done and healed.

[p3t3]

That is great news, thank you. I did mention the year in the title:2019. The dealer told me the floor is not considered structural. Guess I have the wrong dealer. I hope I can get the floor repaired because the first thing I am going to do once repaired is rip out the dinette set and replace with a couch. The u-shaped dinette set is the most uncomfortable piece of furniture going! I also would like to know if my trailer has the new hyperdeck flooring, it sounds like it does not otherwise the floor wouldn't be so spongy from water damage. I hope if they repair it they replace the flooring with their hyperdeck.

D'oh! So you did.

Yeah, what's covered by warranty is not up to the dealer. All they need to do is to document the issue and contact Keystone to get repairs authorized. This is a major repair and pickup would be arranged between you and Keystone. Keystone brings it to Indiana for repair and then deliver it back to the dealer for a clean-up before getting it back to you. Aside from that, the dealer is not really in the picture.

My 2019 did not originally have the new HyperDeck flooring but that's what they replaced it with, so this sort of thing should never happen again.

[Summergirl]

Your dealer is not working for you.
Contact keystone yourself. They will tell you that you need to take it to the dealer but explain that you don’t trust your dealer to make the right documentation for the issue.
This is a known issue that they built 2 plants to fix the floors.
Yes the floor is covered by the three year warranty.
Ours was 2018 and it done under warranty and then you get one year on all the things they removed and replaced as well as a three year on the new floor.

[Shredder]

Your dealer is not working for you.
Contact keystone yourself. They will tell you that you need to take it to the dealer but explain that you don’t trust your dealer to make the right documentation for the issue.
This is a known issue that they built 2 plants to fix the floors.
Yes the floor is covered by the three year warranty.
Ours was 2018 and it done under warranty and then you get one year on all the things they removed and replaced as well as a three year on the new floor.

Thank you all for the advise, I will contact Keystone on Monday.

[Shredder]

Thank you all for the advise, I will contact Keystone on Monday.

So I contacted Keystone and the lady was very pleasant and told me it was pending more information. What does that mean- she said they needed better pictures. I then contacted my dealer and they looked up their response and it said they wanted an L shape cut in the darco, I seen the size of the cut they made and it looked fine by me. The dealer was kind enough to come to my location, about 30minutes away and did the cut and I also took pictures. Within a day Keystone contacted me and said they approve the warranty repair and someone will be contacting me in about a week to make arrangements to pick up it up, within a few days Keystone contacted me and said they will pick it up the week of 8/2, she also mentioned the flooring will be replaced with the new hyperdeck material and would take 4-6 weeks. I hope so since I have a reservation for Shenandoah in October.
I am impressed! Now lets see it they follow through.. more to come.
34437

[kfp673]

So I contacted Keystone and the lady was very pleasant and told me it was pending more information. What does that mean- she said they needed better pictures. I then contacted my dealer and they looked up their response and it said they wanted an L shape cut in the darco, I seen the size of the cut they made and it looked fine by me. The dealer was kind enough to come to my location, about 30minutes away and did the cut and I also took pictures. Within a day Keystone contacted me and said they approve the warranty repair and someone will be contacting me in about a week to make arrangements to pick up it up, within a few days Keystone contacted me and said they will pick it up the week of 8/2, she also mentioned the flooring will be replaced with the new hyperdeck material and would take 4-6 weeks. I hope so since I have a reservation for Shenandoah in October.
I am impressed! Now lets see it they follow through.. more to come.
34437

Good, glad they agreed. Mine and most of our experiences have been the same at the point you are at right now. Same with after the fact as well. Their customer phone support and email support is very good. It’s the quality of work that has been awful. When I tell you to look at everything very close when it comes back I can’t stress that enough. My list ended up 35 items. It has been in 2 times for 3 days each and still needs another full week at the dealer to fix everything the factor broke. You don’t have much choice since the floor will just get worse but just look at it very very closely and go over it with the service department at your dealer and be prepared to do some major repairs after the factory repairs.

[Shredder]

What type of major repairs are you talking about? What should I look for? You've got me worried now. I received a nice email from them and this is what they quoted :During your Factory Service appointment you are in good hands, as we have made significant investments in our facilities, tools, equipment and we employ over 60 RVDA/RVIA Master/Certified technicians to assure we can handle even the most challenging situations, in the best ways possible. . When was yours repaired?

[wiredgeorge]

Shredder, the first thing that happens during construction is to set the floor on the frame. Then EVERYTHING goes on top. What you will watch for plumbing, electrical, heck! EVERYTHING. Based on comments by others who have gone through this process "RVDA/RVIA Master/Certified technicians" might be a stretch. Just go through things and put your dealer on the hook to make all needed repairs when the trailer comes back. Best case you will have your camper back in Sept and an Oct camping trip may not work depending on the scope of fixes needed upon return.

[kfp673]

What type of major repairs are you talking about? What should I look for? You've got me worried now. I received a nice email from them and this is what they quoted :During your Factory Service appointment you are in good hands, as we have made significant investments in our facilities, tools, equipment and we employ over 60 RVDA/RVIA Master/Certified technicians to assure we can handle even the most challenging situations, in the best ways possible. . When was yours repaired?

Not trying to scare you just encourage you to look at every detail. Mine was done over this past winter. Hopefully they have gotten much better at it and maybe don’t have as many backed up? What it came down to for me and many others is the floor replacement itself was done well. Putting everything back to get was a disaster. They took very little care to put things back correctly, without damage, etc. almost like they are saying “who cares, the dealer will fix it”. Good news is they put a one year warranty on everything they touch so I have not had any issues at all getting these things covered, but yes, they did a very very poor job and cut every corner and possibly created a few new corners to cut that they could. Fingers crossed you will not have those issues. I’m sure it all depends on the individuals that get your particular unit. The letter you got is interesting. I know they are well aware that most of their work was bad. It’s possible that over the last year Covid caused a worker shortage etc and me and the others times this poorly. Certainly possible they now have better tools and more workers. just look closely and make a detailed list when it comes back

[Summergirl]

What type of major repairs are you talking about? What should I look for? You've got me worried now. I received a nice email from them and this is what they quoted :During your Factory Service appointment you are in good hands, as we have made significant investments in our facilities, tools, equipment and we employ over 60 RVDA/RVIA Master/Certified technicians to assure we can handle even the most challenging situations, in the best ways possible. . When was yours repaired?

Shredder,

Take lots of picture of inside and outside of your unit. I made videos of every nook and cranny.
We were fortunate that ours came back with very few deficiencies. Most I was able to fix self as they were very minor and not worth leaving it at the dealer for weeks to fix.
They actually corrected some things that were wrong before it went there.
They replaced a tire that was going bad.
Have since gave us one money to replace the stinky domectic 300 toilet that I complained about before going in.

[p3t3]

What type of major repairs are you talking about? What should I look for? You've got me worried now. I received a nice email from them and this is what they quoted :During your Factory Service appointment you are in good hands, as we have made significant investments in our facilities, tools, equipment and we employ over 60 RVDA/RVIA Master/Certified technicians to assure we can handle even the most challenging situations, in the best ways possible. . When was yours repaired?

My 2019 Sunset Trail 289QB went in earlier this year for floor replacement (under the structural warranty). The whole process was surprisingly smooth, from warranty approval, to pickup, to repair time, and delivery back to my dealer. Was everything perfect? No. Keystone dinged a window frame and scraped-up one of the decals but both of these things are being fixed under warranty. Otherwise mine came back with two issues I had addressed before I accepted the unit: 1) Under the front cap they hadn't sealed at all. Pretty remarkable really. If I hadn't caught it, it would have gotten exposed luan and insulation completely drenched the first time I towed in the rain. 2) Also under the unit - they hadn't foam sealed where the propane line comes out of the enclosed underbelly, so it would have been a mouse highway. Both items were easily dealt with by the dealer though.

So despite a couple issues, I'm happy with the process and feel Keystone did a good job standing behind their product and making right something that shouldn't have happened in the first place.

[Shredder]

My 2019 Sunset Trail 289QB went in earlier this year for floor replacement (under the structural warranty). The whole process was surprisingly smooth, from warranty approval, to pickup, to repair time, and delivery back to my dealer. Was everything perfect? No. Keystone dinged a window frame and scraped-up one of the decals but both of these things are being fixed under warranty. Otherwise mine came back with two issues I had addressed before I accepted the unit: 1) Under the front cap they hadn't sealed at all. Pretty remarkable really. If I hadn't caught it, it would have gotten exposed luan and insulation completely drenched the first time I towed in the rain. 2) Also under the unit - they hadn't foam sealed where the propane line comes out of the enclosed underbelly, so it would have been a mouse highway. Both items were easily dealt with by the dealer though.

So despite a couple issues, I'm happy with the process and feel Keystone did a good job standing behind their product and making right something that shouldn't have happened in the first place.
That's good news overall, thank you. By the way, did the dealer spot those problems or did you have to point them out to them?

[p3t3]

That's good news overall, thank you. By the way, did the dealer spot those problems or did you have to point them out to them?

They found a couple of the more obvious ones but I caught the stuff underneath the unit. To be fair, I came and did my inspection before the dealer had a chance to go through it. Also, Keystone only gives the dealer a small amount of time for some clean-up, not really a thorough inspection.

[LCrabtree]

Been there done that! I would check very carefully for other leaks. I don't know about you but the number of times I tow in the rain is pretty small. Any water intrusion would be probably be small and I think it would have a chance to dry up.

All of the water damage I've seen is from above and it does get trapped in the floor. It stays wet because a leak from above is a steady source of moisture while a leak from underneath would only happen if you are towing in the rain.

Good luck on your repairs. I replaced mine with plywood and sealed it well. Then put down some vinyl planking flooring. Much nicer and sturdier.

Steve, do you have an email that I can send you a message. I have a question about spongy floor and potential repair options.

Thanks,


Larry

[flybouy]

Steve, do you have an email that I can send you a message. I have a question about spongy floor and potential repair options.

Thanks,


Larry

Click on the name in a post then click on "send a private message".

[Shredder]

My trailer which is a 2019 bullet 1750rk 20ft, was picked up my transport company from my driveway August 2nd, received an email August 6th that it arrived safely. Received a call September 17th that it has been repaired, floor replaced and any items associated with water damage replaced although they didn't specify what was replaced, they did say they replaced the door seal which was the cause and realigned the door. I mentioned to them there was a bubble on the slide out roof and that was patched. I am guessing since my trailer is so small that it was a fairly easy job for them compared to most. Not bad, only 6 weeks and that was during labor day week also. it now takes 7-10 days to get to the dealer. I am now waiting to see what, if any , items needing repaired by dealer. Over all, I am pleased with the way my warranty process has gone with Keystone.

[Pearson]

Does anyone think a lawsuit can be pursued over the lame floor construction problems so many owner's are having?I've got to call Keystone and the dealer again to see what they say about warranty. The trailer is a 2016. They probably will just laugh at me and tell me to go away. Then I was going to see how much it would cost to get the floor fixed and evaluate whether to keep it. The entire floor needs to be redone. If it's too much money then I will either scrap it or fix it myself. Unbelievable for a 2016.



If I have to do it myself, my plan was to start at the back. It's a rear kitchen. I think I can take out most of the kitchen leaving the fridge. So that means the heater, the stove, the fuse panel/charger has to come out. I think I could prop up the fridge cabinet so I don't have to remove it. Get that area fixed and put back in place and then do the middle up to the bathroom. There is a slide here so I'm hoping I can fix the flooring without removing it maybe from underneath. Once that is fixed, take out the bathroom and bed frame and replace the floor in the rest of the camper. The front seems firmer, but I really don't know how bad it is up there yet. I need to take off the coroplast.



For a fix I was going to add a whole bunch of new aluminum frame members and lay marine 1/4 plywood. I can't go thicker because of the slide unless there is some play that allows me to go to 3/8 or 1/2 inch. The top seals might allow another 1/8 or 1/4. I don't know how the top of the slide is constructed. It looks like there is an inside and outside rubber seal and nothing else. I might have to move the cables.



I've also thought about using sheet metal instead of wood. I'm debating what to do in the frame voids and underneath. I'm not seeing any real reason to have a bottom sheet of wood.



The other thing is I'm trying to figure out how exactly the walls are attached. Looks like the floor sandwich sits on the trailer frame. With the bottom layer of wood rotted, that means I'm going to have to shim between the trailer frame and the aluminum floor frame. Similarly, it looks like the walls sit on top of the floor including top layer of (now rotted) wood. I'll have to shim the walls too or try to insert the new flooring under the walls.


A lot of work for a 3 year old trailer. I'm apprehensive about putting money in it, since the rest of it is built just as bad. If I do it myself, it's mostly just labor and time (that I don't have).

[JRTJH]

Does anyone think a lawsuit can be pursued over the lame floor construction problems so many owner's are having?

First, welcome to the forum. As a new member, I'd urge you to read the community rules. You can access them by clicking on the "community rules" tab at the bottom of every forum webpage.

Here's one portion of the posting standards: "Customer Disputes
This forum is not intended to be a mechanism for people to solely vent frustrations about services, products, vendors, or sales. Please settle your differences with the seller, provider, manufacturer, or dealer through other means but not through our community."

Our forum is not a place to call for "lawsuits against Keystone".

[MyWifeMakesMeCamp]

Well, I've got the dreaded floor issue. This thread has been a treasure trove of info. Has anyone had luck getting this fixed a year after their 3 yr warranty?

I peeled the flooring back so it can dry out. I just can't belive that a half hour driving in the rain would result in this much moisture. If it dries out, it confirms the road spray diagnosis. If not, I keep looking... Maybe I can use this to convince the wife to sell the camper...

[MyWifeMakesMeCamp]

Turns out I don't have the issue after all. Pulled the door, and found that the water was indeed coming from above. There was about a 3" section on the window above the door where the butyl tape wasn't adhered to the side of the trailer. I'll be watching it closely, but I think it's fixed now.

That said, I'm going to line my wheel wells!