RV Construction Quality

[FordFella]

Hello All -



I'm new to the forum, but have been researching RVs for some time. My wife and I are looking to get one in the near future with the hopes of vacationing out west (we live in Florida). My truck has a tow capacity of 7100 pounds, so I'm trying to keep the dry weight down to 4500 pounds or less.



The RV that seemed to have most of what we wanted/needed is the 2020 Keystone Passport 239ML. I like it's storage, layout, and it has a full 60x80 queen bed (I'm 6'4"). Additionally, there's a dealer I really like that carries this model. However, there's always an opinion of an RV that's "better."


It appears the Keystone has pinch rolled walls, foam in the floor, possible OSB in the floor construction, and no ladder because of a "no walk" roof - all of which I'm not a fan of.



I've looked at other RVs (Grand Design Imagine XLS 21BHE, Rockwood Mini Lite 2508, etc.) that appear to be better made, but who knows.


The main concern I have is delamination of the walls and other structure issues. I see posts saying vacuum bonded is supremely better than pinch rolled, but both can suffer delam.


I would appreciate any insight from those with knowledge and experience.


Also, is there any "extended warranty" that covers delamination? I haven't found one...

[Frank G]

An Airstream might be what you are looking for.

[shermris]

RV construction quantity eliminates a lot of quality. Most RVs are made as quickly as possible, you can usually improve a build by upgrading the material for a higher price but that won't guarantee better workmanship. Time is the enemy every RV. Rust, water, sun, cold and use all take their toll and there comes a point when repairs cost more than the value of the trailer. Typical travel trailers last 10 to 15 years before maintenance costs become excessive. This time can increase with materials, storage and care, or it can decrease with lack of the same.

[FordFella]

I like airstreams, just can't afford one...

[linux3]

We have a Passport 195RB and the dry weight is ~3700 LBS. Fully loaded and ready for a 4 week trip was 4500 LBS.
4 years of ownership and the only problem was when a dealer forgot to install the roof antena water tight boot.
IMHO a 1/2 ton truck is good for 5 ~ 6K lbs. Keep this in mind when you are looking.
My wife and I like 4 to 5K mile trips and were looking for light and easy to tow. YMMD

[NH_Bulldog]

We have the 240BH and have had no issues (yet). Not sure why you would need/want a roof ladder? On that model (rear layout is the same as ours) the ladder would block either the bunk egress window on the right, the water heater in the center, or the spare tire on the left. I have had numerous travel trailers and never needed a roof ladder (I am 6’4” and the trailer is only 10’6” at the highest point of the top of the AC unit, so I can reach all I need from a conventional ladder. Having the standard Queen bed is awesome

[FordFella]

The ladder is not so much an issue... I just figured I would want the roof to be able to support my weight if/when roof maintenance was necessary...

[Cbrez]

We toured the Keystone plant two years ago. It was fascinating to see how they assemble RVs. It’s a very efficient assembly line that built our rig in just 1.5 days. In theory quality control should be very good, but it doesn’t work out that way. We overheard several discussions by plant workers (during happy hour) about how they saw errors by coworkers upstream in the assembly process, but ignored the issue due to production quotas. Best advice is to not drive it off the lot until you are sure all of the systems, controls and equipment work properly.

[KeithInUpstateNY]

It appears the Keystone has pinch rolled walls, foam in the floor, possible OSB in the floor construction, and no ladder because of a "no walk" roof - all of which I'm not a fan of.

It's not just Keystone, the construction techniques you cite are pretty standard across brands in the "ultralite" market. Solid plywood floors add weight. As do walkable roofs which require thicker roof decking.

So, you have to choose between heavier, sturdier construction and living space to stay in the same weight range. Last year I traded my 2015 Bullet 220RBI for a 2014 Prime Time Avenger 21RB that my dealer had taken in trade. The weights are almost identical at just over 4600#. I lost some square footage because the Bullet had opposing 6' slides, but I got a trailer with a one piece marine plywood floor with a 25 year transferrable warranty and a walkable roof, which can carry a heavier snow load up here near the Canadian border in upstate NY. Footnote: it doesn't have rear wall ladder, so don't use that as a benchmark as to whether or not the roof is walkable.

You mentioned having a dealer you want to do business with and that can be invaluable. Make your best choice from the lines he/she carries. If they don't have the model you want they can probably order it for you or do a dealer trade if they are a smaller dealer.

[66joej]

"The main concern I have is delamination of the walls and other structure issues. I see posts saying vacuum bonded is supremely better than pinch rolled, but both can suffer delam."


If concerned about delamination maybe check out RVs made with Azdel walls. They are supposed? to eliminate this problem. YMMV

[KeithInUpstateNY]

The main concern I have is delamination of the walls and other structure issues. I see posts saying vacuum bonded is supremely better than pinch rolled, but both can suffer delam.





If concerned about delamination maybe check out RVs made with Azdel walls. They are supposed? to eliminate this problem. YMMVThere's a good explanation of the benefits of Azdel, and manufacturers who were using it when the video was made, here: https://youtu.be/0S86wb-yGEM

60 days submerged in water with no delamination. That's pretty impressive.

[FordFella]

That was a good video. I went to Azdel's site and got a list of RV manufacturer's that uses it. There are only a few that have kind of what I'm looking for (bunk house, murphy bed), and those are the Coachmen Apex Ultra Lite 226BH and Spirit 2245BH. Even then, I like the Passport 239ML better for a number of reasons. I would suppose that this is where someone says that no RV is perfect.



Any Passport 239ML owners care to weight in? Good, bad, ugly...

[FordFella]

I had sent an email earlier to Keystone asking some questions about the Passport's construction. I figured I would share the information I received...


The walls for all Keystone brands are pinch rolled in a climate controlled environment, controlling temperature and humidity.

Then every wall goes through testing.

No fiberboard is used in the Passport.

The cabinet stiles are lumbercore.
The walls are aluminum framed, but not 16" on center like wood construction.

Aluminum studs are random based on doors, window, cabinetry, structure integrity, etc.

The cell block styrofoam walls, along with the aluminum studs and the lamination process creates the wall strength.

ALL laminated walls are built the same.

The rear wall is laminated like the side walls.

The front wall and roof are aluminum framed and filled with R-11 batting insulation like the roof.

The roof trusses are 16" on center.

The roof decking is luan (approx 1/4" thick).

1/4" thick is a little too thin to walk on, you could crack the wood. If you could walk on the trusses you would be OK.

To service the roof, it's recommended to lay a thin layer of luan sheeting on the roof and crawl.
The floor in also laminated. It has the bottom moisture barrier wrap, luan, cell block styrofoam inserted in the aluminum frame (like the sidewalls), 2 layers of luan on top, then the vinyl floor.



I was also advised to look at the 2017 Passport brochure since it showed the Passport's layers of construction. Here it is:
https://www.keystonerv.com/media/2259/passport-2017.pdf


I just thought this was worth sharing...

[danf]

IMO, these are made to be disposable.


I have a 2016 bullet which has water issues in the floor. The construction, which is the same across makes/models, makes it really difficult to repair.



The frame members on the floor are so far apart, the floor will sag even without water damage. When you check out the camper, walk around and look for squishy spots. Those will only get worse as the camper is used. Eventually the floor will just delaminate where those spots are.




If water gets in the floor, the flooring will rot and you might as well as set the trailer on fire.

[Retired Copper]

Having a good dealer and service department means a lot and is the first things I look for. I owned a PassPort and it was a great little trailer, towed well, everything worked like it was suppose too and only maybe two minor issues that I could easily take care of. When my brother was looking for a lite trailer for occasional use I told him to look at the ml 239 and the 2400. I have no problem recommend someone look closely at the PassPort line if you want a lite easy towable rv. What I do recommend also is keeping in under cover. Like in Florida the heat, sun and rain here can be brutal. If you like the 239 start from the ground up looking at everything. I usually start with axle rating and tire ratings. Good luck and Happy Camping.

[FordFella]

Thanks for the info so far...
Anyone have any input on the Wildwood/Salem FSX 179DBK ?
i.e. Passport 239ML vs FSX 179DBK ?
From I see, the FSX is a standard wood frame with aluminum siding, but has a 5/8" plywood floor. It's about 1000 lbs lighter than the 239ML, but has a shorter queen bed (60x74 instead of 60x80).

[rjsurfer]

IMO, these are made to be disposable.


I have a 2016 bullet which has water issues in the floor. The construction, which is the same across makes/models, makes it really difficult to repair.



The frame members on the floor are so far apart, the floor will sag even without water damage. When you check out the camper, walk around and look for squishy spots. Those will only get worse as the camper is used. Eventually the floor will just delaminate where those spots are.




If water gets in the floor, the flooring will rot and you might as well as set the trailer on fire.

I had my 2018 5th wheel changed out for a 2019 because of a rotting floor, I would not recommend any RV with that type of foam core floor system.

Between their prosperity to rot when wet and the lack of proper under framing AND the difficulty in repairing floor damage they are a nightmare.

Ron W.

[KeithInUpstateNY]

For a good visual on water damage in a foam core laminated floor see: https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ekeystoneforums%2Ecom% 2Fforums%2Fshowthread%2Ephp%3Ft%3D39472&share_tid=39472&share_fid=38313&share_type=t


Floor repair on Bullet

[travelin texans]

When shopping there's a couple other items.
The dry weight of any RV you may look at means absolutely nothing to you! That weight is without batteries, propane or any liquid of any kind, once it left the factory it will NEVER EVER weigh that again regardless if you add nothing in it. ALWAYS use the max GVWR posted on the RV tag to determine if your tow vehicle will be up to the task.
Second, the max tow rating of your vehicle also is of no help to you. Check the payload sticker on the drivers door post for the max payload of YOUR particular vehicle, don't use some brochure, fall the "half ton towable" BS or take the RV/truck salesman's word. The payload is everything you put in or on your vehicle including the weight of the hitch & the tongue weight of the RV. You will exceed the payload long before you ever reach the max tow weight.

[atkinsb3]

In the end there are two main types of RV construction: Those that leak and the wall delaminates, and those that leak and rot out the wood frame in the walls and floor. Gotta luv em!

[FordFella]

I had learned about towing, payload, etc. But, thanks for bringing that up - there are many people that don't know how the numbers work.


I have seen the "delamination vs wood rot" as well. It seems to be "pick your poison." I am accustomed to working with wood, so it makes me think maybe I should get a traditional "stick and tin" model. So, when I do have an issue (which is bound to happen no matter what RV I have), I have a high likelihood of being able to fix it myself.


Anyone have any thoughts on the Palomino Puma XLE Lite 20MBC ? It appears to be a stick and tin version of the Passport 239ML.....

[Free88]

It seems to me that luck is by far the greatest factor in determining how long your RV will last before it has minor, major, or catastrophic issues. Plenty of people buy the absolutely bottom of the barrel units and have them last 10 years with only minor issues at the most. Plenty buy mid- and top-end units and have major and catastrophic issues right from the get-go. I wish I could say get X kind of walls, and Y kind of flooring, and so forth, and save yourself the headaches, but thats just not the way it works out for these.

I would stay more focused on getting the layout that works for you, something your tow vehicle can handle well, something that has the look you want, and hits a price point.

Half-ton trucks are generally ok up to about 5000lbs, but you should not venture too much above that. I realize the brochure says they can tow higher than that, but it is mostly just marketing nonsense. Plenty of engine, but everything else will be seriously lacking.

[Rinsrig]

One of the things you may want to consider about the roof is that if you ever need maintenance, additions or anything else done to the roof, you will pay more if it cannot be walked on by RV tech's. The lack of being able to walk on the roof will take longer as they can only work from the side of the RV or from above it, requiring additional equipment and time to complete a job. I personally would not get an RV if I can't walk on the roof, it adds greatly to the structural support of the vehicle overall.

[busterbrown]

The Passport and Bullet lineups are Keystone's value-centered fiberglass coaches. With that, the build focus is on lightweight materials and construction. These brands offer good value for their respective price points.

As far as water intrusion, delamination, and rot, any brand, any floor plan, and any premium coach can experience destructive weather failures if proper routine maintenance is not performed. I can't count the number of times I've read on various social media platforms about how a 2 year old, $70k toyhauler or 5ver has developed a weak floor in the garage or bubbles in the exterior fiberglass walls.

Does it matter which day of the week the RV was made? Or does it matter if a coach was a pre-order or a unit to sit on dealer's sales lot? Or what if the influencing factor on how well (or poorly) the roof membrane sealant was applied is how the line worker is coping with his full blown upper respiratory infection the day a coach is assembled? In the end, the buyer will never know how well his or her RV is "put together".

All prospective buyers and owners can do is mitigate the risk of a owning a lemon by doing a thorough walkthrough (preferred dealers will already have completed a detailed PDI) and continuing on coarse with regular interval maintenance and inspections. As I like to say, a $10 tube of Dicor is cheap insurance.

[Mikendebbie]

Several years ago when DW and I were shopping for travel trailers, or maybe we were looking at truck campers...don’t remember, but we were impressed by Lance travel trailers. They were more expensive than what we wanted to spend but they looked like a quality product. I have never done any research on them or talked to an owner - but we were impressed by what we saw on the lot...just throwing Lance out there as food for thought.

[chuckster57]

I can speak to the factory order vs. buying off the lot, if it’s a factory order it’s just about guaranteed to have a LOT of issues that a “stock” unit on the lot doesn’t have.

I believe they “slam them through” because that unit is pretty much “paid for” so it’s guaranteed income for the factory. I see it pretty much across the board, both towables and driveables.

[JRTJH]

When we bought our Cougar, the dealer, who is also a friend, suggested we not special order a trailer, rather that we change the options that are on one that the factory already had scheduled for delivery. His reasoning for doing that was that we'd get a "normally scheduled production trailer" not a "added into the schedule trailer".

If you read back through the comments from people who have visited the factory for tours, the majority of them say that when they toured, the factory line was closed and little or no work was being done. The line runs on a quota basis, when workers finish the quota for the day, they go home. If the factory "adds another unit to the day's quota" it means they have to work longer, so the "mindset" becomes: "Slam 'em out so we still get off work at 1PM".....

I can't tell you whether the day mine was built, if there were "add-ons" or not, but I do know that mine was a "scheduled factory run" not a "penciled in add-on"...

Does it make a difference? Who knows, but something to consider.

[JGriff]

Have you looked at the Coachmen Apex Nano series ? Nice and lite with all aluminum frame with Azdel.
I purchased the 203 rbk and I am extremely happy. The workmanship is great, no plywood except under the dinette seats and the mattress.

[pdaniel]

Hello All -



I'm new to the forum, but have been researching RVs for some time. My wife and I are looking to get one in the near future with the hopes of vacationing out west (we live in Florida). My truck has a tow capacity of 7100 pounds, so I'm trying to keep the dry weight down to 4500 pounds or less.



The RV that seemed to have most of what we wanted/needed is the 2020 Keystone Passport 239ML. I like it's storage, layout, and it has a full 60x80 queen bed (I'm 6'4"). Additionally, there's a dealer I really like that carries this model. However, there's always an opinion of an RV that's "better."


It appears the Keystone has pinch rolled walls, foam in the floor, possible OSB in the floor construction, and no ladder because of a "no walk" roof - all of which I'm not a fan of.



I've looked at other RVs (Grand Design Imagine XLS 21BHE, Rockwood Mini Lite 2508, etc.) that appear to be better made, but who knows.


The main concern I have is delamination of the walls and other structure issues. I see posts saying vacuum bonded is supremely better than pinch rolled, but both can suffer delam.


I would appreciate any insight from those with knowledge and experience.


Also, is there any "extended warranty" that covers delamination? I haven't found one...
I have owned several RVs through the years. One of the better was made by a manufacturer longer in business-a 18 1/2 travel trailer.
Then two TTs from a manufacturer that no longer makes towables. Both, for entry level, were acceptable with the exception of having to fix new things-leaking plumbing, doors that would not latch, and for the last one, a water leak that caused many issues.
I owned a Keystone Cougar Xlite up until this spring. It was acceptable except a forced air heat system that was either not assembled correctly or engineered poorly. Then along with numerous gaps between plumbing and the under belly that allowed a lot of cold air in. However, we did like the Cougar.
We have now a Grand Design fifth wheel, a Solitude. Now, I know this is out of the capacity of your tow vehicle, but, the bottom line is, they all have the same quality issues-trim not stapled correctly and doors that need realigning and fasteners that need constant tightening.
If you keep the quality issues in perspective knowing these homes are subject to earthquake forces every time you move them down the highway and expect to do maintenance, the RV you choose will work out.
Look at the type of construction-some do use less expensive and light-weight materials. And that is expected when choosing a "1/2 Ton" towable.
Look at manufacturer support to you and the dealer (Keystone, are you listening? I'm still waiting for an answer to a question from 2 years ago). Are they responsive to your issues? Does that manufacturer really provide warranty support?
When shopping for an RV and the sales person says the RV has this feature and that item, have them show you physically (I got burned on my Cougar as it did not have what the sales critter stated-lesson learned).
Now, as I said, I have a Grand Design RV and could not be happier with the factory support of the RV (sorry Keystone RV).
Get what you like within your limitations and hope for the best like all of do when buying an RV.

[KeystoneKal]

When we bought our Cougar, the dealer, who is also a friend, suggested we not special order a trailer, rather that we change the options that are on one that the factory already had scheduled for delivery. His reasoning for doing that was that we'd get a "normally scheduled production trailer" not a "added into the schedule trailer".

If you read back through the comments from people who have visited the factory for tours, the majority of them say that when they toured, the factory line was closed and little or no work was being done. The line runs on a quota basis, when workers finish the quota for the day, they go home. If the factory "adds another unit to the day's quota" it means they have to work longer, so the "mindset" becomes: "Slam 'em out so we still get off work at 1PM".....

I can't tell you whether the day mine was built, if there were "add-ons" or not, but I do know that mine was a "scheduled factory run" not a "penciled in add-on"...

Does it make a difference? Who knows, but something to consider.
On YouTube there is a video showing the the quota system in action on the assembly line at Jayco.
IMO towing is probably the biggest strain on a trailer. I’ve owned several new trailers that just sat at a seasonal campsite for years and have had no structural problems. Had a leaking faucet on my Hideout 30 RLDS.

[beeje]

It really does not matter what you buy. They are all junk. My favorite terms are they are made out of tooth picks and popsicle sticks. Having said that, they can last a really long time if they are well taken care of. That means paying EXTTREMLY close attention to the roof/caulking condition to ensure NO water ever enters the beneath it. All it takes is a pin hole to destroy a camper over time. This is the reason ours stays in a pole building under cover when not in use.

[jbrosecity]

I had sent an email earlier to Keystone asking some questions about the Passport's construction. I figured I would share the information I received...
<snip>
I was also advised to look at the 2017 Passport brochure since it showed the Passport's layers of construction. Here it is:
https://www.keystonerv.com/media/2259/passport-2017.pdf
I just thought this was worth sharing...

yeah thanks FordFella - Our new avalanche seems pretty well built. I was especially impressed with their factory video featuring their sidewall construction. I am no engineer, but stands to reason if they are that proud of their multi million dollar facility and their construction techniques, it must be pretty damn good:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlUYUupOTMY

[FordFella]

Thanks for all the posts.


At this point, my list of possibilities (in no particular order) are:
Keystone Passport 239ML
Wildwood/Salem FSX 179DBK
Gulf Stream Ameri-Lite 248BH
Palomino Puma XLE Lite 20MBC


The Coachmen Apex Ultra Lite 226BH looked nice because of the Azdel, but when looking deeper, I found that their floors are made basically the same as the Passport (Luan, not Azdel). So, it may not be worth it...

[wiredgeorge]

One thing I noticed about the Passport was that it didn't have ducted A/C. If kiddos are back in that corner, might get a tad stuffy in warmer weather. Another point is that if this is your first RV, you might want to think about a used unit where you can sort out your REAL druthers which you won't figure out till you have been camping a few times. I have a 2002 Cougar 5th wheel and essentially no major issues other than brittle (easily replaced) plastic and the seals around my windows were shot and I replaced those. We liked the floor plan then made the camper ours by changing out furniture, custom mounting TV so you didn't have to break your neck to see it, putting in vinyl flooring (dogs) and a porcelain toilet (shape fits a man better). We also added a FULL QUEEN (was trailer queen) exactly like our mattress in the house (it is a king but same brand). Spent less than a grand to do this stuff and the trailer is rock solid and works for our needs. Spent $5K on the camper to begin with.

Campers are like exercise bikes... used once or twice and sit for awhile and then get sold for HUGE depreciated losses by the original owner. I LIKE used for that reason.