Keystone Buyer Beware!

[trmanning]

We finally retired and sold our home in Virginia and bought a new 2018 Keystone Montana 3701LK so we could travel the U.S and end up in our other home in Arizona. From day one we have had issues.
The one of two A/C's broke and Dometic cant fix it so it needs to be replaced. At 90* everything that is glued is melting off the walls and the one A/C is working overtime.
The entire side of the RV fell off going down the road, because they forgot the rivets and it was only held up by silicon.
The slides out came out over 5 inches on 3 of them as we were on I80 and when we called Keystone they said get two by fours and cut them and slide over the tops of the slides! Stupid fix, I used 1500lb cargo ratchet straps and that worked (but use two cause it broke one).
The black tank cable rusted within 3 weeks because they used steel and aluminum which made it rust faster. When I went to open the bottom of the RV and fix the cable all the wires and cables fell out on the ground so I had to zip tie them all back up. (By the way who routes the hydraulic cables for the levels under and over the black tank hoses?????)
The RV dealer put refurbished Best Buy TVs in the RV, not new and hid the stickers under the TV's so when one of them had a problem it has to be replaced. CHEAP $^&%#*
The rear Turn/Stop signals filled up with water on the first rain in West Virginia, so at 10pm I was on the highway repairing those because they burnt out from all the rain.
The bathroom door fell of in transit along with the archway. cheap nails!
The shower doors shattered all over the place, they were locked down too. What a mess to clean up.
The kitchen fan stayed on with the door closed, when I called them they said cut the wire and we will send another board replacement. Who does that?
The Kitchen drawers fall out when in transit because the wood and nails are so cheap that hold them in they just fall off.
The furnace quit about 20+ times because it has a bad switch that Keystone knew was bad. But when it does work the entire kitchen floor (linoleum) raises about 2 inches of the ground, its like walking on a cloud!
The heat pump blows nice COLD air when the furnace is out.
The wheel wells flop so much in the wind going down the road I'm waiting for them to fly off (they put one screw in them and that came off somewhere in Nebraska.)
The outside TV in the outside compartment filled up with so much water when it rained that the TV is broke and has a fill line half the way up the screen because there was so much water in there. But the GFCI never tripped even though it was filled with water.
The ice maker was never hooked up to the fridge because they never put the connection on the hoses.
The GFCI in the bathroom was reversed so it never worked and we spend three days trying to find the problem. bought a new GFCI and had to replace it the right way.
We have so many issues its a wonder we even made it from Virginia to Wyoming. So as we wait to get into the RV Shop 5 weeks waiting, Keystone says they will honor everything but in the meantime we have to dish out tons of money to stay in a hotel instead of our Keystone Montana we purchased. We filed complaints with the Safety boards and looking for a class action because this RV is crap. I have never seen so much TERRIBLE work in my life that I paid for. Looked good from the outside but it is full of lazy, inconsistent, shabby work the Keystone Company should be ashamed of themselves and stop being another Enron or Countrywide or any other Corporation that sells expensive lies. :banghead:

[ronheater70]

O.k, I'll bite. Do you really think it's Keystone or just a run of bad luck with your particular unit. Your issues are WAY excessive. Id be ticked also, but they are trying to take care of it and correct your issues. Hopefully it comes back to you in a correct, everything working, state. I've said it before my previous two rvs were Forest River products that I had stellar good fortune with. Both units never gave me a seconds concern really. However On their board, every now and then you would read a post much like yours saying to beware, they are horrible, etc..In fact I have read more than one account of folks spending near 200K on upper end RV'S and still having ridiculous issues. I try to be a glass 1/2 full type of guy.. Most times I succeed at it. Look at it this way, Your retired, That in itself is Frecon Awesome! The fact that youa re able to buy a fairly nice RV says you have a good life. Just relax, breath and Enjoy that retirement you worked so hard for. Don't ever let some material item grab a hold of you to the point it controls you. It's just wood with a few light switches and a microwave you tow down the road.

[Tbos]

Hope you get your issues resolved. Your dealer is at fault for installing used TVs. That’s not what it comes scrim the factory with. Dometic is to blame for the AC going bad. Multiple brands and manufacturers use the same shower doors and have had the same occasional breakage. As for the other stuff you are right. Keystone needs to step up and fix your unit correctly. You may want to consider pushing for the factory to fix rather than a dealer. Let us know how it goes. I wish you the best.

[German Shepherd Guy]

I don't know but with so many things going wrong is this unit fixable? Shouldn't Keystone step up and just replace what would seem to be a lemon. But, that said that probably will not happen and I doubt that "lemon laws" cover RV's? Good luck, I sure feel for you two. We also wish you the best.
Oak

[newemptynester]

Wow that is a lot to go wrong and I can understand your frustration. However, all brands have issues and lemons. You will always find people who are frustrated and angry at a manufacturer. I hope that Keystone steps up to the plate and either replaces your unit or fixes it to your satisfaction. Please enjoy the rest of your retirement. Enjoy your summer and please keep us posted.

[66joej]

I think Tbos is right . You should press Keystone to have your unit returned to the factory for repair or replacement. You have too many deficiencies for the dealer to properly address. Good luck and hope the rest of your retirement it a lot more uneventful.

[NH_Bulldog]

I am not making excuses for anyone, but all brands, all manufacturers and all price points have their issues. There is not a unit that rolls off the line without some sort of issue. Granted, yours is extreme, but I would call the State Attorney General’s office consumer assistance department for your home state and ask them to intervene on your behalf. As a side note, RV’s are like cars in that dozens upon dozens of units roll out the door every shift. But unlike cars where the same people assemble the same car model all day every day, the same people have different tasks and assemble different models throughout the day, so variations are inherent to the process.

[Badbart56]

I used to deliver RV trailers and fifth wheels and more than a few were returned to the plant for an array of issues. I would insist on a buy back and start over. It's not just Keystone. These plants churn out upward of 35 fifth wheels a day and 35 bumper pulls a day so expect some sloppiness.

[travelin texans]

The title of the thread should've been "RV buyers beware!".
You happened to buy a Keystone that is a POS, but the odds of you buying any other make, model, price RV & getting the same problems is about equal.
I agree with others, have them return it to the factory for repair or get a different unit, don't let the dealership keep it forever & attempt to fix. Dealerships, for the most part, aren't trained or equipped to "rebuild" RVs rather replace faulty parts & appliances.

[LHaven]

I don't know but with so many things going wrong is this unit fixable? Shouldn't Keystone step up and just replace what would seem to be a lemon. But, that said that probably will not happen and I doubt that "lemon laws" cover RV's?

Depends on the state. I know they don't in Arizona, so I'd put off re-registering this unit in your destination state until you check the laws in Virginia.

[RWRiley]

The title of the thread should've been "RV buyers beware!".
You happened to buy a Keystone that is a POS, but the odds of you buying any other make, model, price RV & getting the same problems is about equal.
I agree with others, have them return it to the factory for repair or get a different unit, don't let the dealership keep it forever & attempt to fix. Dealerships, for the most part, aren't trained or equipped to "rebuild" RVs rather replace faulty parts & appliances.

Quality is a problem with most RV manufacturers. All the more reason for you to press the issue with Keystone. They will not up their game until they feel the pain of poor quality, and that means all of us need to raise *heck* about it. I agree with others that say they need to take that unit back and give you a new one.

I also agree with others that the dealers really don't know much about fixing stuff. They are focused on selling units, not much else.

If Toyota or Honda ever get into the RV business, the current manufacturers are in for a real shock.

Rich

[sourdough]

Quality is a problem with most RV manufacturers. All the more reason for you to press the issue with Keystone. They will not up their game until they feel the pain of poor quality, and that means all of us need to raise *heck* about it. I agree with others that say they need to take that unit back and give you a new one.

I also agree with others that the dealers really don't know much about fixing stuff. They are focused on selling units, not much else.

If Toyota or Honda ever get into the RV business, the current manufacturers are in for a real shock.

Rich

I agree with your post...sort of. Pressing the issue with Keystone, Forest River, Jayco etc. won't do a thing for you in the current environment. They will do what they will do, and, whether you/me or the other guy likes it...no matter. There are so many folks coming in wanting RVs that they can't build them fast enough - the way they are built, that they could give a flip about you or me griping - the next guy is going to buy them all anyway.

As far as Toyota or Honda coming in and giving the current manufacturers a shock - that won't happen either. IF they did, and charge that 10-15% upcharge because they are "them" and supposedly have a "better" product...they will not make it. For my Toyota's I pay right at list; TX, FL, NM no matter. I don't buy a big 3 unit for less than a 10% discount or more. Big 3 electronics, engines, interiors etc. far surpass Toyota and Honda in these current days plus their engines/drivetrains are just as good (and yes, I do buy Toyotas and currently own one - the last).

Not to digress into a vehicle manufacturer debate but only to point out that the premiums those brands demand will not fly with RVs - you already have premium RV brands. They more or less do well but they are not the "mainstream" units. Nowadays folks want to be able to have an RV at whatever income level they are at. Many grasp at "that one" that is just above what they can afford. That entry level made by Toyota/Honda, with nothing more to offer than a bit of perceived quality increase (maybe) but a big price increase.....? Won't go far IMO. JMO/YMMV of course.

[RWRiley]

I agree with your post...sort of. Pressing the issue with Keystone, Forest River, Jayco etc. won't do a thing for you in the current environment. They will do what they will do, and, whether you/me or the other guy likes it...no matter. There are so many folks coming in wanting RVs that they can't build them fast enough - the way they are built, that they could give a flip about you or me griping - the next guy is going to buy them all anyway.

As far as Toyota or Honda coming in and giving the current manufacturers a shock - that won't happen either. IF they did, and charge that 10-15% upcharge because they are "them" and supposedly have a "better" product...they will not make it. For my Toyota's I pay right at list; TX, FL, NM no matter. I don't buy a big 3 unit for less than a 10% discount or more. Big 3 electronics, engines, interiors etc. far surpass Toyota and Honda in these current days plus their engines/drivetrains are just as good (and yes, I do buy Toyotas and currently own one - the last).

Not to digress into a vehicle manufacturer debate but only to point out that the premiums those brands demand will not fly with RVs - you already have premium RV brands. They more or less do well but they are not the "mainstream" units. Nowadays folks want to be able to have an RV at whatever income level they are at. Many grasp at "that one" that is just above what they can afford. That entry level made by Toyota/Honda, with nothing more to offer than a bit of perceived quality increase (maybe) but a big price increase.....? Won't go far IMO. JMO/YMMV of course.

That is exactly what GM, Ford, and Mopar thought until Toyota and Honda took them over their knee and gave them a spanking they would never forget.

[sourdough]

I won't post on this another time but Toyota no longer "spanks" any Big 3 over their knee. They did make an inroad for several years because their quality surpassed what we got out of the Big 3....no more...by a long shot. Their refusal to update/upgrade not only the electronics but also the body styles shows, to me, their belief that Americans are just "gullible" because of their reputation...which has expired.

To try to extrapolate that to RV sales is just.....dream land. Here is a quick view of what "is". Note that the perception of Toyota being better is quickly dying...as it should since they cannot keep up with the tech changes the big 3 are implementing....and, they still have no idea how to make a TV.

https://www.marklines.com/en/statistics/flash_sales/salesfig_usa_2019

here's another stat. Note that the Tundra, the only pickup that Toyota offers that has "towing" capabilities is "down there". Depending on the source the numbers will change a bit but the positions generally don't....

https://www.businessinsider.com/best-selling-pickup-trucks-in-us-in-2018-2018-8#5-gmc-sierra-100874-17-7

[Roscommon48]

get to the annual rally! and deal with the techs there.


montana actually replaced my 2nd 5th wheel after 3 months, it happens.


push the montana office....go beyond the local dealer.

[{tpc}]

I agree with your post...sort of. Pressing the issue with Keystone, Forest River, Jayco etc. won't do a thing for you in the current environment. They will do what they will do, and, whether you/me or the other guy likes it...no matter. There are so many folks coming in wanting RVs that they can't build them fast enough - the way they are built, that they could give a flip about you or me griping - the next guy is going to buy them all anyway.


I agree with this. It can also be applied onto a lot of different manufacturers of various products.

I've had much more success with biting my tongue and playing nice approach, but reminding them that I want to enjoy their product but I need to keep myself and my family, safe. Now you can apply that just about any way you want. If a tire blows or a spring breaks...that's not safe right? If a roof leaks and mold grows...not safe.

You have to remember that while we see these people we deal with kinda as "robots" or "computers" or something that are only interested in the bottom line, a lot of them have family's too and can empathize with certain types of situations. As well as I would bet there is a lot more people "yelling" at them then even we can fathom, and its probably a breath of fresh air to be a little more civil about it.

In this case I would probably end up back at the original dealer first, or at the manufacturer (if I was on the road and close enough). I feel like either one would step up if they saw some of the issues in person. I know that's probably not what the OP has in mind, but have to start somewhere. I know its going to mean being without the unit for awhile too, unfortunately not much you can do about that.

[ChuckS]

I’d like to see pic of the entire side of the Montana that “fell off”....

[chuckster57]

Not a Montana, and not the side but stuff happens. It looked to me like transport paper plate
22866

[JRTJH]

It does have a paper plate, but it also has a McClain RV (dealership) logo above the tail light. Just guessing, but it looks like it was sold and the new owner had a problem with the rear wall falling out.....

[sourdough]

I agree with this. It can also be applied onto a lot of different manufacturers of various products.

I've had much more success with biting my tongue and playing nice approach, but reminding them that I want to enjoy their product but I need to keep myself and my family, safe. Now you can apply that just about any way you want. If a tire blows or a spring breaks...that's not safe right? If a roof leaks and mold grows...not safe.

You have to remember that while we see these people we deal with kinda as "robots" or "computers" or something that are only interested in the bottom line, a lot of them have family's too and can empathize with certain types of situations. As well as I would bet there is a lot more people "yelling" at them then even we can fathom, and its probably a breath of fresh air to be a little more civil about it.

In this case I would probably end up back at the original dealer first, or at the manufacturer (if I was on the road and close enough). I feel like either one would step up if they saw some of the issues in person. I know that's probably not what the OP has in mind, but have to start somewhere. I know its going to mean being without the unit for awhile too, unfortunately not much you can do about that.



It's interesting you bring this up. Not 10 days ago I was at the dealership waiting to speak to the service mgr. A man and woman were in his office and she was yelling and being very "upset". It was more than 30 minutes as he tried to explain the situation. They finally left and I asked about what was going on. He said they had an 11 year old motorhome and they had took off and tore the door off along with several other issues. The problem was in getting the parts to repair it....they were either hard to find or the manufacturers had them in a holding pattern. The customer was blaming them for the holdup. I just shook my head and said I was amazed at the number of folks that just didn't understand how the "game" went. I then asked about my trailer. He told me it was ready (after only 2 days) and I was surprised (and looked/acted it). I told him I really appreciated the quick turnaround and he told me......"you are a VIP to us. You've had lots of issues and you always understand and treat us with respect. We will do the same for you."

Your comment above holds a lot of truth and even though we sometimes get so upset because our "toy" is stranded someplace for repairs, we have to try to see the bigger picture and recognize where to place the blame.

[Mikendebbie]

Boy - it was exhausting reading the whole story. About 3/4 of the way thru I started to wonder if this was all true or if it was like another long sad story I heard that ends with "...but I sure miss that dog".

Knock on wood - I have had some small issues with my Montana but I tended to all of them. So far so good.

[donsantell]

I don’t know if the lemon laws apply here but i would think so. I would ask Keystone to replace your unit and if they don’t try touching base with an attorney to see what your options are.

[ctbruce]

Hiring a lawyer will get your claim owed down to walking backward speed. Exercise caution going down this road.

[travelin texans]

Hiring a lawyer will get your claim owed down to walking backward speed. Exercise caution going down this road.

Most times in this type of situation the only one benefiting is the lawyer, they get paid either win or lose.

[CaptnJohn]

Mention lawyer and you get shutdown. Keystone lawyers will take over. They have a lot more experience than anyone you can hire.
I’d make the list and ask to have the factory do the repairs. They will do a better job than any outside shop. Take it to the rally and talk to them there would be my 1st move.

[Ken / Claudia]

I tried to read the first post and the problems. I reread it and not sure what to say. The entire wall fell off? put on by rivets? nails in the drawers? water in tail lights? etc. Okay the person does not know a screw from a staple or nail. Okay some will not. But the title should be RV buyer beware, do a complete PDI use the RV overnight in the driveway or nearby. Learn how things works. No rv brand or style is free of trouble.
By the way I broke a rule I have, do not respond to a new poster who goes on and on about the trouble with the new RV. It's to easy to embellish stuff on the web and we only get 1 side of a sad sack story. Some of this one I do beleive, but not most.

[Customer1]

Whole complaint sounds suspicious. After making severe accusations the OP hasn't been back in the five days since.

If I was actually seeking help I would monitor the thread constantly. On the other hand if I had a misguided notion that I could somehow damage Keystone I would post and git.

[RWRiley]

Mention lawyer and you get shutdown. Keystone lawyers will take over. They have a lot more experience than anyone you can hire.
I’d make the list and ask to have the factory do the repairs. They will do a better job than any outside shop. Take it to the rally and talk to them there would be my 1st move.

Agree, and I have read stories about others that threaten Lawyer and that is exactly what happened. They stop talking to you except thru council. Only as a last resort.

I also agree that you need to remain civil in your conversations. I previously said something about raising *heck* with them, maybe a bad choice of words.
You can make your point and do it respectfully. I also still think the whole industry needs to improve.

[trmanning]

When we all pay as much as we do for quality and get half a** work we have a right to tell everyone and should demand safety in our products. Just as we do for vehicles or any product a provider manufacturers. We must demand and speak up when we don’t feel safe. I do appreciate everyone’s comments. Thank you!

[chuckster57]

So the question is- what is the next step? knowing that nobody from Keystone monitors this forum that we know of, have you decided what actions your going to take.

EVERYBODY has the right to expect quality and EVERYBODY has the right to complain about lack of quality. Its what YOU DO to resolve YOUR ISSUE that matters the most.

[sourdough]

When we all pay as much as we do for quality and get half a** work we have a right to tell everyone and should demand safety in our products. Just as we do for vehicles or any product a provider manufacturers. We must demand and speak up when we don’t feel safe. I do appreciate everyone’s comments. Thank you!


I agree with you about safety. I recently posted one section of the ANSI? safety requirements that RVIA follows for their certification as well as the RV manufacturers. But, don't confuse "safety" with shoddy workmanship - 2 very different things.

I also agree you don't have to keep quiet if you have had problems with an RV. The problem is recognizing at who's door that problem lies. Many, if not most, owners don't have any idea how the RV carousel turns and liken it to auto sales/regulations/etc. Apples and bananas. Most RVs are turned out with the expectation from the manufacturer that there will be some issues with the units; those corrections fall on the dealership it goes to. Some take that seriously and are head and shoulders above others who just pass those problems on to the unsuspecting, UNINSPECTING buyer who then may endure countless hours, days, months waiting to get all those "broken" things fixed that should have been caught...by the dealer, prior to taking possession.

So bottom line it IS sad that faulty units are produced and someone is going to get them, but that is the reality of RV manufacturing, sales and ownership. We have to do our very best due diligence up front, cross our fingers that we don't have "hidden" problems, get something that is going to work for the family and head on down the road....KNOWING full well that what you just bought could be "the one".

I'm sorry you've had so many issues and hope you get them resolved. I would encourage you to establish a CLOSE, friendly relationship with the dealership; it will be to your benefit.

[rjsurfer]

Trust me when I say be patient and friendly with the manufacturer's customer service reps, all they hear all daylong are irate aggrivated customers. They didn't build the campers nor do they have the ability to fix them.

The same goes for dealer reps, but they do have the ability to get them fixed.��

Make sure the dealer sends detailed photos and descriptions of the problems for every issue. Customer service will NOT speak to you until the dealer sends them the information. Most dealers are lax when if comes to reporting all the problems correctly.

Make sure you have a copy of every service call, how long the camper stayed at the service center, results of service call, every phone call you made and who spoke to and how far you drove with mileage to get to service center.

Never mention lawyers! Remember there is no lemon law for trailers and 5th wheels. Their lawyers do this 24/7, any lawyer you get will be at a disadvantage. Also, take a close look at you sales agreement, I guarantee you that there is a clause that states you can't sue them, you must go through arbitration, again putting you at a disadvantage.

When contacting manufacturer be polite and understand they record all conversations so contacting the same rep each time isn't necessary but it helps if you can build a relationship with one rep. If you are not happy with the outcome, politely "plead" to get the call elevated to another level. Don't be embarrassed to "plead" your case.

Of course always keep the sales MANAGER or even better, the OWNER of the dealer informed on all issues.

This worked for me.......

Ron W.

[LHaven]

When we all pay as much as we do for quality and get half a** work we have a right to tell everyone and should demand safety in our products.

These folks (https://rv.org/blogs/news) have a lot to say about the safety of RVs in general... and the price tag involved in improving them. I bought my first TT according to the advice in their ratings and was very happy with it for 20 years. But that manufacturer was absorbed by Winnie, I lost track of the nonprofit until a couple weeks ago, and I bought my current Cougar on the basis of floorplan and amenities.

I'm happy with those as far as they go, but the build quality issues are like night and day. In less than a year, I've had two furnace failures, an A/C failure, a spare tire that couldn't be accessed, a non-working range fan motor, and no water to the toilet, all factory issues. Luckily I found most of those in my driveway and not on the road (especially the tire issue). But we had nothing like any of these issues with our previous rig.

[German Shepherd Guy]

When we all pay as much as we do for quality and get half a** work we have a right to tell everyone and should demand safety in our products. Just as we do for vehicles or any product a provider manufacturers. We must demand and speak up when we don’t feel safe. I do appreciate everyone’s comments. Thank you! :ermm:


Absolutely! So what is the ongoing status? :confused: Or is it too soon to know? :facepalm:


I noticed several replies that spoke to car manufactures and that is like comparing apples and oranges. There is soooo much robot work done on cars and trucks. And the tolerances now that can be achieved with computer controlled machining truly make vehicles with 200,000 miles a everyday occurrence now. When I was a kid almost no one held onto a truck for more than 100,000 miles. :cool:


RVs on the other hand are mostly human built vs Robot built. HUGE difference in consistency.



So trmanning I think we are all still very much interested in how your case goes so please keep us posted. :popcorn:
Still wonder how lemon laws apply to RVs and to what Keystone says to your dealer about this.


Oak

[P&DZ]

I do agree with many of the opinions voiced on this thread with one exception. I think as the RV buying community we are too fast to let the manufacturers off the hook for the level of product quality leaving the factory. I was a manufacturing operations professional for my entire 40+ year career, including positions as GM and COO for enterprises building electronics, solar products, contract manufacturing and hydrovac excavator bodies built on class 8 chassis. I would be embarrassed (and probably fired) if I allowed my factory to deliver the level of quality which is allowed by many of the RV manufacturers. It is inexcusable regardless of cost targets and price points!

[sourdough]

I do agree with many of the opinions voiced on this thread with one exception. I think as the RV buying community we are too fast to let the manufacturers off the hook for the level of product quality leaving the factory. I was a manufacturing operations professional for my entire 40+ year career, including positions as GM and COO for enterprises building electronics, solar products, contract manufacturing and hydrovac excavator bodies built on class 8 chassis. I would be embarrassed (and probably fired) if I allowed my factory to deliver the level of quality which is allowed by many of the RV manufacturers. It is inexcusable regardless of cost targets and price points!

Yes, and I agree, but what exactly is the resolution if they sell everything they can throw together as fast as they come out? The objective of the business is to churn out production because they are going to sell whatever comes out. Quality? Not in the mix because more time spent on the unit equals higher cost which loses every time in the marketplace.

[P&DZ]

Danny,
You are correct that cost and weight reduction are the driving measures of the industry to meet the demand for products and far exceed product quality. This will most likely not change until market conditions and/or consumer expectations change. The sad thing is that adopting a few tried and true design fundamentals and quality procedures would drastically improve delivered product quality/reliability with very little impact to product cost.

[sourdough]

Danny,
You are correct that cost and weight reduction are the driving measures of the industry to meet the demand for products and far exceed product quality. This will most likely not change until market conditions and/or consumer expectations change. The sad thing is that adopting a few tried and true design fundamentals and quality procedures would drastically improve delivered product quality/reliability with very little impact to product cost.

I again agree, but maybe you or I should approach them and see if they want to hire us to implement those "quality/reliability" measures after we advise them in an interview that that is what our objective is......:lol: Now, we are back to status quo and doing the best we can with what we have until the market slows down....maybe.

I also think that comparing your past with RV manufacturers is one of those apple/oranges things. When you rolled a product out your door that was the end of it...the customer was the next person with your product - the way it is with most things. In the RV world the dealer accepts the fact that they are going to get defects and agree to work with the manufacturer to correct those, at the dealership, prior to delivery to the customer; that is just a given norm in the RV industry and a huge problem for buyers. Not the same in other sales channels. I see lines of RVs sitting outside the repair bays; brand new ones awaiting being on the sale line, with untold issues that need to be repaired. It's the nature of the beast.

[RWRiley]

I also think that comparing your past with RV manufacturers is one of those apple/oranges things.

Not apples/Oranges in my humble opinion. I also come from a manufacturing background (I was a 6 Sigma Quality Black Belt). Our entire plant would have been shut down if we were putting out the crap the RV manufacturers put out. The whole industry needs a wake-up call. The problem is, they don't care because they can get away with it. I remain hopeful that somebody will come along and shake things up.

[German Shepherd Guy]

I do agree with many of the opinions voiced on this thread with one exception. I think as the RV buying community we are too fast to let the manufacturers off the hook for the level of product quality leaving the factory. I was a manufacturing operations professional for my entire 40+ year career, including positions as GM and COO for enterprises building electronics, solar products, contract manufacturing and hydrovac excavator bodies built on class 8 chassis. I would be embarrassed (and probably fired) if I allowed my factory to deliver the level of quality which is allowed by many of the RV manufacturers. It is inexcusable regardless of cost targets and price points! :ermm:


:soapbox:
I agree but don't think we really let them off the hook, rather our choices are limited. :facepalm:
I used my 2018 TT this last week as a guest house for visitors. As I went to put in one of the slides I noticed that the rubber piece on the top meant to keep water out of the TT when the slide is out was coming loose from its anchorage. This TT is not even a year old, been used not as much as I would have liked, and I have already had to repair the slide motor mounts on this same slide-out, (fell off after the first use) and now re-attach the rubber seal. (after maybe 20 uses) Amazing. BUT, I at least knew that going in I would need to be "handy". I would rather not be, and my dealer would be willing to do the repairs but I can see the long line of RVs outside the shop and do not really want my TT sitting out in the weather "waiting" its turn. Plus I know the repair is done right. My point? :confused: Until someone ups the ante by offering a truly better built product, and until the buying public demands the uptick in quality, then quality will not be "job 1" and no one will be "fired" on the line because of bad construction practices. If I was betting in fact I would bet there have been guys fired for going too slow and trying to get it right on the line. :( That is JMO.



I really like my 26RBPR, but I do acknowledge that I have already done more "repair and maintenance" :eek: work on it than I did on both my previous TTs combined. And it is brand new.


Still await the OPs relating how his experience with his dealer and with Keystone goes in correcting what are obviously over the top problems with his new trailer. :rolleyes: :popcorn:


Oak

[P&DZ]

Agree, it may not be exactly an apples to apples comparison. But the bottom line is many of these companies have no pride in the product they are delivering or a sense of commitment to the dealers or the end users.

[JRTJH]

Think back to the "Gold Rush Days" and compare that to the RV industry rather than trying to compare it to a "basic commodity that everyone must have". We all "must have a quality car or truck". Contractors "must have a quality bull dozer and reliable compressor". Farmers "must have a reliable tractor". Those items are "required to be reliable and are long term investments purchased by consumers." Manufacturers of those products know that someone else is producing a quality product and they have a "standard that must be met" if they expect to compete in the market. Additionally, people who need their product MUST buy from someone who is reliable and can keep their necessary product operating at peak performance so they can continue to meet their daily needs for transportation or tools to perform their profession.

The RV industry isn't in any of those categories. Recreational Vehicles, by their name, are for PLAY (not for work or the ability to survive). The RV industry, whether it's ATV's, UTV's, motorcycles, boats, travel trailers, motorhomes or even some airplanes, are all "toys for play" or "purchases when times are good and there's extra money".... They simply aren't "necessities"....

Travel trailer manufacturers are a "gold rush boom" type industry. They spring up when times are good and "wither and die on the vine" when times are bad. Right now, it's "make as much money for the investors as we can because when the bottom falls out, we'll have to lock the doors and wait for the next boom".....

With a mindset like that, is it a surprise to anyone that Keystone, THOR (the parent company) or any other RV manufacturer is pushing them out the door, trying to meet the consumer demand (quantity) with little regard to what consumers overlook (quality) in their "quest to play".....

Times are good, RV's are being mass produced and investors (those who drive the industry by owning and investing in it) are making money "hand and fist" with products just like they are. There's no incentive for the industry to slow down production, improve quality or manufacture a better product....

Competition in this kind of industry means "put lipstick on the old pig and sell it as better than the competition's old pig".... That's why we're now getting In-Command, Furrion entertainment centers, electric fireplaces, auto-level systems and Key-TV. It's all lipstick put on an old pig during the BOOM !!!!

Who knows if there'll even be a Keystone Alpine or Cougar or Hideout next year? If the economy tanks, so does the RV industry, so they're making as much as they can when times are good. There's an old saying: Make hay while the sun shines. That's the RV industry mentality. As long as they're "making hay" they have NO incentive to change their business model. And, with thousands (maybe tens of thousands) of people waiting in line with credit cards in hand (few have the actual money to buy an RV), consumers are using someone else's money to by a toy they don't need, but want, and are willing to stand in line for their shot at playtime. Don't blame the RV industry for taking advantage of a "good opportunity to make hay".....

[edward willis]

Well said.

[CaptnJohn]

And when the next bust comes in 2021 or 2022 they will still put out faulty units, just fewer of them.
I go into the purchase of a new RV with my eyes open. After many minor problems with a FR product I got rid of it and bought another with few huge problems. I went to Heartland and unloaded that after just 4 months. Only the 1st of 4 had anything but minor cosmetic problems, a furnace I called Atwood about and not the dealer.
It is luck of the draw. Most units have few problems and we don’t hear of those.
If I had OPs list I’d try to get it back to the factory. Hell, I’d even drive it there from NC. Other than that just trade it in and bite the loss bullet.

[CaptnJohn]

That is my last 4 have been Keystone 5ers. Cougar 1st then Montanas

[ChuckS]

The new additions such as six point level up , In Command, fireplaces , etc have actually been around since 2014.

I don’t have In Command on my 2014 but had we bought any other floor plan it would have... thats one reason we bought the unit we have... no In Command.

It, and some of the other new ideas like KeyTV have a lot of merit... color coded coax separate runs to each TV, etc. trouble is the craftsmanship of the coax connections with no QC to verify correct operation at factory.

Look at the new trucks ... all digital dashes , integrated audio, Bluetooth, WiFi, etc.

If you can do your own troubleshooting and work then in most cases the new RVs are fine. It’s a house on wheels that takes a beating on the roads.

I’ve been watching several different groups with various brand for the last several years. The issues are pretty much across the board with all of them.

Some folks have had tanks falling out, roofs not installed properly, etc.

Look at the new house builds during the housing boom... they ain’t any better

[CaptnJohn]

I agree. The reason I did not get the Legacy I wanted as they have the In Command. My Cougar had a remote AND switches, that was acceptable.

[Cbrez]

We toured the Keystone plant last year and learned that our Montana was assembled in about one and a half days. Would have been a bit longer if it had a paint finish. We’ve been very fortunate with our 2015 unit and had no serious problems.

The workers start at 5am and knock off at 2pm, so if you go to a bar for happy hour in Elkhart, Indiana you’re going to hear RV workers talking about their day. Regardless of manufacturer, we heard lots of talk about how workers overlooked obvious manufacture problems because it “wasn’t their job” to do the other mechanic’s work. There doesn’t appear to be any checks and balances in the manufacturing process and known deficiencies seem to sail through the production line because it’s all about throughput. We’ve been across country and I’ve never seen so many help wanted signs as in Elkhart, so I doubt many assembly line workers are being let go for poor workmanship.

I was very naive when I purchased our RV (our first). Just got lucky. What I have learned - thanks to this forum - is to not sign on the bottom line until everything checks out.

[CaptnJohn]

Not just Keystone, all are the same. When I see “Amish craftsmanship” I laugh. No such thing beyond milking cows. I’ve been lucky as my last 4 have been Keystone and no major problems. Don’t ask me about FR or Heartland! I’m convinced every factory has a majority that could not be the Fry Guy at McDonalds.

[travelin texans]

"The workers start at 5am and knock off at 2pm"

Actually they knock off as soon as their daily quota of rvs out the door is met!
When we were there having warranty work done the mass exodus was about 11:45, looked like ghost town by 12:30!

[jbrosecity]

The title of the thread should've been "RV buyers beware!". You happened to buy a Keystone that is a POS, but the odds of you buying any other make, model, price RV & getting the same problems is about equal. <Snip>

Yep we have a saying RV stands for repair vehicle... here's the meme:

http://www.wind-seeker.com/blog/gallery4/tucson2-thm.jpg

Reminds of when I was in Tucson a few years back kvetching with another motorhome owner about the repairs, and the guy in the next space overheard us as he was walking by. He pointed to his new million dollar Foretravel and said coyly, "Don't think that the high priced coaches don't have their troubles too" and indicated a list as long as his arm.

For sure Keystone should step up to the late on this, but ALL RV's have their issues

[floridalovebug]

If you are able to find an attorney for a class action we would be willing to provide all the info on our piece of junk 2019 Fuzion. It has been nothing but issues and Keystone is not willing to work with us

[notanlines]

Florida, the best info I could find was "Courts generally find numerosity where there are over 40 plaintiffs but far less likely to find numerosity where there are less than 20 plaintiffs. To file a class action lawsuit successfully, it is wise to apply an experienced and skillful class action attorney for help."
Good luck in your hunt. I hope you have your dealer running interference for you. The dealer generally needs to be your spokesman.

[flybouy]

And the class action attorney's will reap the largest benefit.

While there certainly are lemons out there and manufactures should be held accountable, I think some folks have an unrealistic expectation when purchasing a RV. If you expect a "high end" build quality go visit an Airstream dealer. Or give Flyte Camp a call and find out what that quality will cost. The "champagne taste on a beer budget" will always end in disappointment.

[travelin texans]

And the class action attorney's will reap the largest benefit.


Keystone also has "attorneys", probably a big building full & even if yours could build a successful case it will most likely cost you more than a new RV + be tied up in litigation til you're too old to use it. But your lawyer still gets paid!!!
I'm sorry so many are getting into something that's so unsatisfactory, but unfortunately the RV industry hasn't changed in the last 10-15 years so some research is required along with a good set of tools, a little mechanical ability & a credit card & will be cheaper than a lawyer in the long run. UNLESS you have an ambulance chasing brother in law!!
The title of this thread is "Keystone buyers beware!", truthfully remove Keystone & replace with ANY manufacturer you could name & will be true as well. There's actually only 2-3 manufacturer holding companies out there & not one is much better than the other. They all build in the same geographic area by the same bunch of folks with no formal training, not much pay, paid by piece work & once the daily quota is out the door they go home. Even if there were a handful of folks on the line willing/wanting to do a better job they couldn't hold up the line to do so, the rest are hurrying to get the hell out.

[BDove]

I feel your pain. We purchased a 2021 alpine 3700FL new. I have had several issues, AC with no flow because returns blocked with foam, shower drain not connected to drain pipe 2” off was bent over and a couple of threads forced on of course it came loose noticed when water flooded out bottom of RV, can’t open and close black tank drain on one of the black tanks, trim falling off not stapled, AC vents with foam and tape restricting flow, low spot on roof in front of AC where water pools. I have called dealer three hours away says bring it in, but I am using it to stay in while on a job. Not an option. Mobile repair, keystone hard on those guys or you cough up cash to pay them then you fight with keystone for reimbursement, not an easy process. I am coming to the conclusion warranty isn’t worth much unless you can drop your camper off for months at a time. Otherwise you are on your own. Disappointed. Have talked with dealer, keystone and authorized repair mobile service. No real help. Fixed the shower myself so I could take showers. About to get into replacing the black tank cable so we can use the 1/2 bath commode. Disappointed in build quality.
We have only owned this thing less than two months.

[LHaven]

I feel your pain. We purchased a 2021 alpine 3700FL new. I have had several issues... Mobile repair, keystone hard on those guys or you cough up cash to pay them then you fight with keystone for reimbursement, not an easy process. I am coming to the conclusion warranty isn’t worth much unless you can drop your camper off for months at a time. Otherwise you are on your own. Disappointed. Have talked with dealer, keystone and authorized repair mobile service. No real help... Disappointed in build quality. We have only owned this thing less than two months.

There's already a free-market solution to this problem (https://www.keystoneforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=464265#post464265), but unfortunately it requires buyers to know about its existence. If dealers around the country had to step up to the plate to fix all the factory defects that seasoned professionals find in their units, before the buyers accepted delivery, you would see unbelievable pressure being put on the factory to get it right the first time.

As for me, I'd rather pay high three figures for a pro like this to get me a good rig than pay the same or more for a meaningless warranty full of exclusions. Alas, I did not know about these pros before purchasing, either. If there ever is a next time, I will not make that mistake again.

[jasin1]

O.k, I'll bite. Do you really think it's Keystone or just a run of bad luck with your particular unit. Your issues are WAY excessive. Id be ticked also, but they are trying to take care of it and correct your issues. Hopefully it comes back to you in a correct, everything working, state. I've said it before my previous two rvs were Forest River products that I had stellar good fortune with. Both units never gave me a seconds concern really. However On their board, every now and then you would read a post much like yours saying to beware, they are horrible, etc..In fact I have read more than one account of folks spending near 200K on upper end RV'S and still having ridiculous issues. I try to be a glass 1/2 full type of guy.. Most times I succeed at it. Look at it this way, Your retired, That in itself is Frecon Awesome! The fact that youa re able to buy a fairly nice RV says you have a good life. Just relax, breath and Enjoy that retirement you worked so hard for. Don't ever let some material item grab a hold of you to the point it controls you. It's just wood with a few light switches and a microwave you tow down the road.


I realize this is a couple year old post but man that is some sage advice…it’s a really good way to look at any problem

[jasin1]

There's already a free-market solution to this problem (https://www.keystoneforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=464265#post464265), but unfortunately it requires buyers to know about its existence. If dealers around the country had to step up to the plate to fix all the factory defects that seasoned professionals find in their units, before the buyers accepted delivery, you would see unbelievable pressure being put on the factory to get it right the first time.

As for me, I'd rather pay high three figures for a pro like this to get me a good rig than pay the same or more for a meaningless warranty full of exclusions. Alas, I did not know about these pros before purchasing, either. If there ever is a next time, I will not make that mistake again.

Wife’s cousin used a rv inspector/surveyer for their Grand Design Momentum that they ordered ( first time rvers) ..he found a few problems and there was a impasse and the rig sat at the dealers before they would sign for it.