Suspension upgrade

[Jacketsbum]

Just returned from my trip to Alaska and back where we broke two springs and an end shackle right off the frame, had to find a welder in Watson Lake Yukon! the suspension is obviously too weak. Would like to upgrade, has anyone done this? looking for suggestions. It’s a Cougar fiver 338RLK. Was thinking of stronger springs and have heard about a cross member but not familiar with what that is. Keystone builds these things to the bare minimum, anything to save a buck.

[concours]

In our 2nd year of owning our 331MKS we had a broken shackle and a separate incident of a broken spring both happened on the I5. we were told by Keystone that it was due to overloading and turning too tight even that they didn't have the trailer weights. Anyhow we had a spring shop replace all the springs with 3000 lbs springs that are notably heavier than the stock springs We also installed 3 Morride cross members and wet bolt kits. During the last 4 trips from Canada to Southern California we haven't has a single concern, the suspension isn't noisy it is very stable and shows no sign of wear. Probably the best upgrade that we have done

[Jacketsbum]

Aren’t fifth wheelsmade supposed to turn tight? The overloading is just a cop out! I loaded mine to the bare minimum because of such a long drive. The frost heaves on the Alaska Highway ARE hard on any camper if hit too fast, but if they put more quality into what they build it would handle it fine! Quality is a four letter word to RV manufacturers. The way these things are built, it’s a miracle they don’t fly apart going down the road!

I’ve been looking at the Morryde upgrades, trying to decide on the CRE3000 or SRE4000 with crossmembers

[busterbrown]

We had issues with our Bullet last fall with several broken mono leaf springs. "Difficult to source" mono leaf springs left our coach in limbo at a local campground. Can't imagine the stress and inconvenience if the failure(s) happened on the Alcan hwy.

So, I did what any good man would do, upgraded everything below the frame rails. This included 6 pack leaf springs, 5,200 lb axles (up from 3500#), tires, wheels, and reinforcement cross members welded to the spring and equalizer hangers. The frame and axle shop that did the work showed me how very heavy dump trailers are designed with similar cross members. Reduces the stresses on those points in tight turning situations.

Here's the old setup:
http://www.keystoneforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=307440&postcount=86

And the new:
http://www.keystoneforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=310489&postcount=87

The new suspension was tested thoroughly on a big April trip out west when we boondocked at various washboard BLM and forestry areas with 'less than stellar' washboard roads. Big improvement!

We're headed to Alaska next summer so the trip out west a few months ago was a big litmus test for what's to come.

[lunge motorsport]

I have done this conversion and I’m very pleased with the outcome. Pics are available on my profile and I also have it explained in detail at checkmybuild.com
Cheers

[Tbos]

If I were to upgrade the suspension on my Alpine I think I’d go with the MoreRide Independent suspension with shocks and disc breaks.

[Ddubya]

We are on our way to Alaska (Calgary today). I have replaced the stock shackles and bolts with Moryde wet bolts,added Moryde SRE4000 equalizer , three Moryde cross braces and disc brakes. Fingers crossed.

[Tbos]

We are on our way to Alaska (Calgary today). I have replaced the stock shackles and bolts with Moryde wet bolts,added Moryde SRE4000 equalizer , three Moryde cross braces and disc brakes. Fingers crossed.


Keep us in the loop and let us know how it goes. Travel safely and have fun.

[Roscommon48]

the IS system is probably the 'best' way to go if you want to spend the $7K...which would include disc brakes.


I know your pain...lots of springs and spring hangers have broken or come apart.

[Park1911]

After 2 bent axles, we decided on the Morryde IS system eight years ago. We kept the old brakes instead of converting to disc brakes. Very pleased and no more troubles.

[SkiSmuggs]

I replaced our 4-leaf spring packs with 6-leaf because 1) tires hitting under carriage and 2) the spring shop did not have the 5-leaf springs I really wanted. The fiver sits much higher now, but the ride is much rougher and rearranges stuff while traveling. I also found out the rear axle replacement from Dexter 4 years ago was 3500 instead of the 4400 we had sent them. So now I plan to replace the springs and axles with 5200 lb and HD shackles / wet bolts. With the 12" brakes replacing the 10", this will be a significant suspension upgrade.

[77cruiser]

When I had mine down to Moryde for the IS few of the guys I talked to converted because they were tired of breaking springs. There was a guy there that had been back for his third time because the rubber kept shearing, but he said he was 21K gross.
So far mine is been good rides a lot better seems more stable, & the disc brakes are awesome. So much smoother that the drums.
Too bad only 2 places to get it done at, it was about a 1K mile one way trip for me to do it.

Alaska that would be a good ride to an installer.

[SkiSmuggs]

Duplicate post

[BAPotter]

I'm curious, but isn't a stiffer leaf package going to be like riding in a heavy duty truck without a load, basically beating up everything inside including the furniture, appliances, etc.

[SkiSmuggs]

I'm curious, but isn't a stiffer leaf package going to be like riding in a heavy duty truck without a load, basically beating up everything inside including the furniture, appliances, etc.
Depends. My 4 leaf springs weren't up to the job, but the shop I used for an emergency replacement was out of the 5 leaf, so I got 6 leaf and they are too stiff for my 10K fiver. Along with other issues, I plan to upgrade my entire 4400/3500 lb suspension to 5200 lb components to soften my current ride and provide larger brakes and a more robust suspension.

[JRTJH]

Depends. My 4 leaf springs weren't up to the job, but the shop I used for an emergency replacement was out of the 5 leaf, so I got 6 leaf and they are too stiff for my 10K fiver. Along with other issues, I plan to upgrade my entire 4400/3500 lb suspension to 5200 lb components to soften my current ride and provide larger brakes and a more robust suspension.

I'm in the middle of an axle issue as we speak. My trailer has "Lippert 4400 lb axles" under it. They are a hybrid axle. The axle tube is a 3" cantilevered tube with a 6 lug hub (larger inner bearing/same outer bearing) and 12"x2" brake assemblies. It's actually (according to every trailer supply house I've contacted) a 3500 pound Dexter tube (or a knock off of that) with bigger hubs, bearings and brakes). It hangs on the suspension with 4 leaf spring packs.

When you look at 5200 pound axle assemblies, they are, at least as far as I can understand the supply houses, the same 3500 pound tube with the same bearing packs/brakes as the Lippert 4400 axle.

You don't get into a heavier axle tube until you get to the 6000 pound axles (3.5" tube) and I understood him to tell me that the bearings are the same as the 4400 pound Lippert, but with 6 leaf springs.

You might want to make sure of what you're getting because if I understand what they (3 axle repair/parts houses) today, the Lippert 4400 is a 3500 pound axle tube, the 5000 pound uses the same tube.

I might be completely wrong, I've got so many numbers right now that I might be so far off base... Just make sure before you spend money on the same thing you have with a different spring pack.

ADDED: As I understand it, the 3" axle tube with 4 leaf spring packs and 10" brake packs with the smaller bearing is rated at 3500 pounds. The SAME axle with 4 leaf spring packs, 12" brake packs and larger bearing is rated at 4400 pounds and the SAME axle with different bearings (not sure if both or just the outer is larger) the 12" brake packs and 5 leaf springs is rated at 5200 lbs.... ???? From what I can tell (or at least what I'm understanding) is that the same axle tube is used for 3500, 4400 and 5200 pound axles ????? Verify that for yourself, I'm so confused right now....... Anyway.....

[SkiSmuggs]

Since my 4400 lb Dexter axle was, unknown to me, replaced with a 3500 axle, I now know the bearings are smaller. That's how a trailer shop confirmed it was 3500 as the outer bearings are smaller than a 4400. They have the same inner seal and maybe the same inner bearings. What torqued me was I been overloaded on the rear axle for 4 years.

[JRTJH]

Eric,

That shouldn't have happened, especially without your knowledge. But, the only difference (as I've been told by several axle parts stores and shops) is the hub. The axle tube and the spindles on the 3500 and the 4400 are exactly the same. The hub and the brake assembly are the difference. So, whomever installed your 3500 pound axle "should have" replaced the hub with a larger race/bearing and 12x2 brakes. That would have made the "3500 pound axle a 4400 pound axle" and kept you at the same ratings and payload.

It may not be "Dexter's fault". At two of the axle parts stores here, they stock the 3500 pound 96" axle with 10" brakes. If someone wants a 4400 axle, they pull the hubs and brakes, replace them with the appropriate parts and "out the door it goes"... So, in your case, maybe (or maybe not) Dexter shipped the installer the parts and for some reason, the installer didn't upgrade the hub/bearings ????? Stranger things have happened.

What gets me is that I can't order an axle for my trailer... ALL of them are now stocked (at least in these parts) with a generic 3500 pound, 96" tube and the axle has to be "sized and welded to specifications" before installation. So, I can't buy a replacement, they have to "make me a replacement" by cutting/welding/replacing hubs and brakes.... Not a happy way to do a roadside repair, that's for sure !!!!!

[77cruiser]

If this would have happened a couple months ago I could've dropped off a pair of 6K axles coming back from Elkhart.

[Ddubya]

Keep us in the loop and let us know how it goes. Travel safely and have fun.

We just went over the Top of the World highway and experienced some very rough and heaved roadway. Every time we stopped I expected to see things completely out of place in the pantry and cabinets. Not so. After this I am a firm believer in the MorRyde Sre-4000 equalizer.

[SkiSmuggs]

Eric,

That shouldn't have happened, especially without your knowledge. But, the only difference (as I've been told by several axle parts stores and shops) is the hub. The axle tube and the spindles on the 3500 and the 4400 are exactly the same. The hub and the brake assembly are the difference. So, whomever installed your 3500 pound axle "should have" replaced the hub with a larger race/bearing and 12x2 brakes. That would have made the "3500 pound axle a 4400 pound axle" and kept you at the same ratings and payload.

It may not be "Dexter's fault". At two of the axle parts stores here, they stock the 3500 pound 96" axle with 10" brakes. If someone wants a 4400 axle, they pull the hubs and brakes, replace them with the appropriate parts and "out the door it goes"... So, in your case, maybe (or maybe not) Dexter shipped the installer the parts and for some reason, the installer didn't upgrade the hub/bearings ????? Stranger things have happened.

What gets me is that I can't order an axle for my trailer... ALL of them are now stocked (at least in these parts) with a generic 3500 pound, 96" tube and the axle has to be "sized and welded to specifications" before installation. So, I can't buy a replacement, they have to "make me a replacement" by cutting/welding/replacing hubs and brakes.... Not a happy way to do a roadside repair, that's for sure !!!!!
The shop pulled the complete axle and shipped it to Dexter in SLC. They had received an incorrect axle in the past so they wanted to be sure Dexter got it right. Mine, like yours, is a custom axle so Dexter had to build and ship a complete assembly, so I blame Dexter.
I do believe both the 4400 and 3500 have 10" brakes and it is the 5200 lb that has 12" brakes. The spindles determine which hub/bearings to use, so the shop could not have changed that.
From what you said, I may have the trailer shop that identified the axle parts as 3500 do the upgrade if they can. They seem to know their stuff but I haven't seen their facility to know if the can handle an RV. The 5200 lb axles will have to be custom built. Too bad Keystone didn't use off the shelf parts. I have the standard 85" length but 68.5" spring centers instead of the standard 70".

[JRTJH]

The shop pulled the complete axle and shipped it to Dexter in SLC. They had received an incorrect axle in the past so they wanted to be sure Dexter got it right. Mine, like yours, is a custom axle so Dexter had to build and ship a complete assembly, so I blame Dexter.
I do believe both the 4400 and 3500 have 10" brakes and it is the 5200 lb that has 12" brakes. The spindles determine which hub/bearings to use, so the shop could not have changed that.
From what you said, I may have the trailer shop that identified the axle parts as 3500 do the upgrade if they can. They seem to know their stuff but I haven't seen their facility to know if the can handle an RV. The 5200 lb axles will have to be custom built. Too bad Keystone didn't use off the shelf parts. I have the standard 85" length but 68.5" spring centers instead of the standard 70".

Yeah, it sounds like Dexter is to blame in the mixup for your axle. It would be hard for the factory to build and ship the wrong item.

My LIPPERT 4400 pound axle has 12x2 brakes (not 10" brakes) and the large outer bearing. From all I have been told, the spindles are EXACTLY the same on the 3500, 4400, 5200 and 6000 pound axle tube/spindle assembly. To use the small bearing, they insert a "bigger race" in the hub, to use the larger bearing, they remove that race and install a smaller race (so the space is larger to accommodate the larger bearing between the race and the spindle. At any rate, the spindle is not changed between any of the four axle ratings, it's the bearings, races, brakes and spring packages that make the change.

I did learn that the Lippert axle tube walls are .19" thick (I would guess Chinese steel) while the Dexter axle tube walls are .245" thick (unknown steel origin), so the Dexter axle tubes are thicker steel.

I lost a hub/wheel (fortunately at the campground entrance, so no damage) last Thursday. I spent all day Friday and Saturday "learning about axles and selections" at various axle parts stores. We're replacing both axles under our trailer Monday. I believe that with all the rough roads on our recent trip through the mountains, that with one bad hub/spindle, it's pretty much guaranteed that if the bad roads caused one axle issue, the other axle was within a couple feet, exposed to the same "issues".... So, two new axles and we're starting with a "clean slate".....

ADDED: I forgot to mention the hub. On the 3500 rating, the hub can be either a 5 or 6 lug version. If it's the 5 lug, it will have 10" brakes, if it's the 6 lug, it will have 12" brakes. So, I suppose there's even more "optional build packages" than just the bearing/race/spring pack to choose from. At any rate, from what I can understand about the Lippert axle selections (what I now have) and the Dexter selections (what I'm getting) my 4400 pound axle rating will have 6 lug hubs, 12" brakes, large outer bearing, standard inner bearing (same on all axle ratings) and the 4 leaf spring pack.

From what I can figure, Lippert used their 5200 pound tube, smaller brakes and bearings for the 3500 rating, changed to 12" brakes and 6 lug hubs for the 4400 and used the same small outer bearing. That, I think, is the weak link that caused my failure (the outer bearing). Essentially, what I'll have tomorrow, is 6000 pound axles with 6 (not 8) lug hubs and 4 (not 6) leaf spring packs.

[SkiSmuggs]

Weird stuff. We knew something was wrong when the new 4400 lb hub wouldn't fit so my shop took the old parts to the trailer shop an hour away to get his opinion. That place identified the old parts as 3500 and ordered the correct parts for my shop which is actually an auto shop. The original axles had factory stickers that identified them as 4400 lbs with length and spring center measurements. The replacement axle had crayon markings with only the measurements and no paint so it is rusted while the OEM looks almost new after 7 years.