Tire shop could not get Westlakes off of rims without damaging wheels!

[cookinwitdiesel]

I got a set of Sailun S637 STs for my trailer and took them and the oem wheels with Westlakes installed to a shop to get them swapped. The shop works on commercial trucks and stuff, so no stranger to higher pressure, heavier duty tires and wheels. Apparently they spent hours on it yesterday and could not get the Westlakes off of the Lynx Aluminum rims without damaging the rims. They only took off one tire then stopped because they didn't want to tear up the whole set. I went in this morning to see what is up and talk about options.

They started out with the usual: cheap Chinese tires, low quality, blah blah blah that you would expect to hear from an American mechanics shop. Allegedly the problem is that the (cheap Chinese) rubber is too stiff on the tire bead and they could not work it around the rim - the tire was tougher than the aluminum and the rim suffered as a result. They of course claim that the American made Goodyear G614s don't have this problem.

They are remounting the one tire they removed and I will leave the Westlakes on for the time being - when I go back tonight they will present their solution to compensate me for the rim they damaged. The rim damage is purely aesthetic, nothing structurally compromised, just a bummer. Picture attached.

Has anyone else come across anything remotely resembling this problem? Are these guys just subpar? This was the shop that the local CampingWorld sent me too since their tire stuff was broken or something like that. I know a ton of people use the Sailuns happily, and had to get the Westlakes off in order to install them - I am curious to hear what others experienced.

Thanks!

[xrated]

Have not heard of that issue before....ever. Are these the load range "G" tires?

[CWtheMan]

Their inability to get those tires off the wheels without damaging the wheels is unsatisfactory. Go to another retailer with more experienced employees and proper equipment.

They need to be pressed off the bead, not pried off.

[sourdough]

I agree with CW. That looks like someone took a tire spoon and tried to pry the tire over the rim/break the bead ala 1970. I remember the first time I bought fancy alloy aftermarket wheels sometime in the 60s. Took one in for a repair and the guy said he would only do it if I paid him for the repair PLUS the cost of a new wheel. He advised that trying to pull the tire over the rim would probably break it (they didn't have the modern equip. they do today). Looks like he may still be alive and working at your shop....:lol:

I would find another shop.

[Pull Toy]

Sorry to hear about your troubles.

A long...long...long time ago, I worked in a tire shop. It was so long ago (hint), guys were putting Crager S/S rims on their '65 GTOs, and 'Stangs! Te number one rule in the shop was that the "Chromes, and Fancies" always got worked from the back side.

I agree with CW. You need a tire specialist, who knows how to remove a tire without destroying either the tire, or the rim.


Good Luck,

[cookinwitdiesel]

It looked like they had the right tools and while there I observed them doing other wheels/tires with what looked like the right procedure. Is why I wasn't sure if there is a known trend with the "china" tires being more difficult to work with.

Thanks all! I will collect my tires soon and try again somewhere else....

[Daryles]

If you are getting rid of the tire, no problem, cut the bead. Tire comes off. Putting on the new ones, I'm thinking like previously posted, work from the rear so as not to damage the pretty side. . I have changed tires before at an auto hobby shop. It's not hard with a little supervision for the first tire. You would think people who do this for a living would have seen this before.

[xrated]

I agree, the bead has to be broken loose on both sides of the tire and almost every tire shop I've seen, the tire machine has a pneumatic bead breaker. Once the bead is broke on both sides, the bead of the tire is pushed down into the "well" of the rim and it comes off quite easily with a tire machine and lube. They obviously had no clue on how to do it. Hopefully it wasn't C&D tire, that would cause me to lose a lot of faith in them.

[cookinwitdiesel]

The shop is Rice Tire in Manassas, VA. They did in fact have the pneumatic bead breaker, I observed them using it on other tires while waiting to talk with the manager.

[CWtheMan]

The shop is Rice Tire in Manassas, VA. They did in fact have the pneumatic bead breaker, I observed them using it on other tires while waiting to talk with the manager.


You may have an out. It’s a slim chance but they happen.

It is prohibited to fit a tire on a wheel with an incompatible bead profile. Tire manufacturers are required to provide, to the public, a listing of wheels their tires are designed to fit, including the bead profile type. Look on your trailers certification label and find the wheel size and type. Then look on the actual wheel to confirm a bead type match. If there is not a match, ask the tire manufacturer for the bead profile for that particular tire's designated size and load range.

If you can confirm a mismatch you should inform the trailer manufacture and give them a chance to make it right. If that doesn't work, present your information to NHTSA. They will force the trailer manufacturer to make it right.

Here are some basic wheel contour letter descriptions.

Wheels will have a letter designation for their contour or the expected tire bead and rim shape. Some possible contour designations are J, JJ, K, JK, B, P, and D.

Common (and generally interchangeable) wheel contour designations are J, JJ, and JK.

[cookinwitdiesel]

Given that the OEM provided tires were having difficulty coming off of the OEM provided rims, you think there is a likely case there? They use the same tires and rims across pretty much their whole line up.

[Snoking]

Given that the OEM provided tires were having difficulty coming off of the OEM provided rims, you think there is a likely case there? They use the same tires and rims across pretty much their whole line up.

So I assume you have been to the GD forum and asked it others have had this issue?

The Lynx model wheel appears to be a Semec product. Lionshead Specialty Tire & Wheel seems to be the vendor of the wheel and the Westlake tires.

https://lionsheadtireandwheel.com/Lynx-Aluminum-Wheel

Give them a call.

Seems your trailer shop did not have or use a bead protector.

[cookinwitdiesel]

I have posted the same topic in that forum as well. The overwhelming consensus over there is also that the folks at that shop are incompetent and to go somewhere that knows what they are doing. It is not a problem with the tires.

[FlyingAroundRV]

So I assume you have been to the GD forum and asked it others have had this issue?

The Lynx model wheel appears to be a Semec product. Lionshead Specialty Tire & Wheel seems to be the vendor of the wheel and the Westlake tires.

https://lionsheadtireandwheel.com/Lynx-Aluminum-Wheel

Give them a call.

Seems your trailer shop did not have or use a bead protector.
How did you identify the wheel manufacturer? I have been looking at Google images to try to identify my wheels until my eyes have gone square!
Nevermind! I just re-read the OPs post and saw that he mentioned it there.

[cookinwitdiesel]

Grand Design has every part in their RVs catalog'd and searchable by model. In my case, I have a Lynx 16x6 Aluminum wheel with 8 on 6.5 lug spacing.

https://www.etrailer.com/Tires-and-Wheels/Lionshead/LHSL513B.html

Fortunately a new wheel is not terribly costly, just annoying that I am having to go through this. And the tire shop is about a 35 minute drive each way. Tomorrow will be a 3rd round trip there.....would have been cheaper to just not go and buy a spare wheel haha

[Snoking]

How did you identify the wheel manufacturer? I have been looking at Google images to try to identify my wheels until my eyes have gone square!
Nevermind! I just re-read the OPs post and saw that he mentioned it there.

Actual I looked at Tredit first and then etrailer. I missed that OP said Lynx. Post a picture of your wheel. Chris

[Nicculi]

I mount and dismount a lot of passenger car and light truck tires at work. The damage I see appears the be from improper use of the tire machine. Even if the bead is hard to break, there's no excuse for that damage.

[cookinwitdiesel]

The tires are now at NTB for them to work on, they were of the opinion that it is perfectly doable without damaging anything.

The first shop is covering the cost of a replacement rim 100%

[travelin texans]

Now you have a slightly scratched matching wheel for your spare.

[cookinwitdiesel]

Yep, actually just ordered a 6th tire, will have 2 spares I think haha

[cookinwitdiesel]

So...the next chapter of the saga! After taking the tires to NTB they went to work on them. They got 2 tires installed but then broke the duck head (? - part on their machine) which stalled them out until today. They got a 2nd part from the NTB down the block (for some reason there are 2 literally visible from each other) and started seeing it get stressed and then threw in the towel on my wheels. They ended up apologizing and did not charge me for anything (they did in fact get 2 tires swapped out) - they were great to work with and did NOT do any rim damage - they just do not have heavy duty enough equipment for 14 ply G rated tires. I collected everything and went back home for the night. They recommended a couple shops that do a lot of fleet work as they should have machines with metal duck heads whereas theirs were plastic. They advised I need to find someone who has a metal duck head with a plastic cover so it will not damage the aluminum rims. Apparently truck rims are often Steel and therefore you do not have to be as gentle with them (problem I had with the first shop - they aren't well practiced in aluminum rims clearly).

Once back home, I installed the 2 Sailun mounted wheels on one side of the trailer (I have been really paranoid having it on jack stands since Monday - I am sure it is fine, but I was the one doing the jack stands and do not consider myself a pro by any stretch of the imagination). I then went to air up the other 3 and was going to put 2 westlakes back on the other side and remount the spare. I learned 3 interesting things at this point.

1) One of the wheels with a Westlake still on it has something loose INSIDE the wheel that bounces around when I roll it :(
2) The spare tire with a Westlake still on it had a loose valve in it so it wont hold air above about 85 PSI (should be an easy fix - just need to tighten it down)
3) My Harbor Freight 2 HP 8 Gallon Air compressor with 125 PSI on the side in huge text can't do a puff above 95 PSI. My 6 Gallon Porter Cable Pancake Compressor hit its advertised 150 PSI like a champ

The mission tomorrow is finding a shop that does work on heavy duty wheels/tires but can ALSO handle working on aluminum rims without damaging them. We were thinking about camping this weekend somewhere near by, that is now a one nighter at best.

What was supposed to be a 1/2 day project getting tires swapped out has dominated my week with nearly 300 miles driven now......

[chuckster57]

What a saga!! Hope you get it all sorted out soon, waiting for you out here!!

[kksfish]

I know it may be a little out of the way but you might want to call Little Tire located in Fredericksburg they have two locations.

They do a lot of tires and even have a truck for roadside stuff like big trucks.

They have a large parking area in rear at their southern location and can change the tires in the lot if you tow it in.

[cookinwitdiesel]

I know it may be a little out of the way but you might want to call Little Tire located in Fredericksburg they have two locations.

They do a lot of tires and even have a truck for roadside stuff like big trucks.

They have a large parking area in rear at their southern location and can change the tires in the lot if you tow it in.Good to know, if we head south for a trip they may become a pit stop for us!

[Logan X]

3) My Harbor Freight 2 HP 8 Gallon Air compressor with 125 PSI on the side in huge text can't do a puff above 95 PSI. My 6 Gallon Porter Cable Pancake Compressor hit its advertised 150 PSI like a champ


I also have a Porter Cable pancake compressor which I have been very impressed with.

Good luck with the tires. I hope it gets worked out soon.

[cookinwitdiesel]

Success!! All 5 wheels are now wearing Sailuns and back on the trailer :)

The shop that was able to do this correctly also can do my state inspection and when I am ready to put on disc brakes, will help with that too!

[chuckster57]

Woo Hoo!!! Now start using it.

[sourdough]

That is great to hear!! I'm glad you got it taken care of albeit with a lot of running and stress. Thanks for sharing; that a little tidbit that can be stored that might come in real handy one day.

[jsmith948]

Just curious (nosey?) - what was loose and making noise inside the mounted tire? If I had to guess, I would say a wheel weight? Or was it a chunk of broken tire bead?

[cookinwitdiesel]

It was the broken duckhead from NTB it turns out haha

[cjcalandra]

I'm pretty sure you took your wheels and tires to a woefully unqualified shop. I took all 4 of my factory tires off my 2016 3791RD in my back yard with a manual device, some sweat equity and patience. Maybe your "typical" American shop was staffed by non Americans.

[mcomeaux]

I changed mine out to Sailuns and had no issue's. I spent 35 yrs in tire industry and never experienced damaging wheels to remove tires. Did they use rim clamp machine or old style Coates 20-20?

[BadmanRick]

Should have taken them to an RV dealer in the first place. They have the correct tools and knowledge

[cookinwitdiesel]

I went to camping world first, their equipment was broken.

[Tireman9]

I got a set of Sailun S637 STs for my trailer and took them and the oem wheels with Westlakes installed to a shop to get them swapped. The shop works on commercial trucks and stuff, so no stranger to higher pressure, heavier duty tires and wheels. Apparently they spent hours on it yesterday and could not get the Westlakes off of the Lynx Aluminum rims without damaging the rims. They only took off one tire then stopped because they didn't want to tear up the whole set. I went in this morning to see what is up and talk about options.

They started out with the usual: cheap Chinese tires, low quality, blah blah blah that you would expect to hear from an American mechanics shop. Allegedly the problem is that the (cheap Chinese) rubber is too stiff on the tire bead and they could not work it around the rim - the tire was tougher than the aluminum and the rim suffered as a result. They of course claim that the American made Goodyear G614s don't have this problem.

They are remounting the one tire they removed and I will leave the Westlakes on for the time being - when I go back tonight they will present their solution to compensate me for the rim they damaged. The rim damage is purely aesthetic, nothing structurally compromised, just a bummer. Picture attached.

Has anyone else come across anything remotely resembling this problem? Are these guys just subpar? This was the shop that the local CampingWorld sent me too since their tire stuff was broken or something like that. I know a ton of people use the Sailuns happily, and had to get the Westlakes off in order to install them - I am curious to hear what others experienced.

Thanks!


A couple of potential issues: Terminology is important.


Was the initial problem that they could not "DE-Seat" the beads of the tire from the wheel? or They did d-seat the beads but had difficulty in de-mounting the tire from the wheel.


Hard De-seating can be caused by improper shape or placement of the "safety hump" on the wheel. Modern mounting machines can generate enough force to actually break the tire bead wire when doing a de-seat.
If the tire has a "tight" or OOT small bead bundle that usually shows up in high seating pressure. Since you didn't notice that I would think the tire bead is not the problem.



Hard de-mounting can be caused by shallow or improper offset of the 'Well" of a wheel. Some wheels even have the well off center to the back side which makes things difficult. This is IMO just bad wheel design where "looks" are considered more important than proper and safe function.


There are specs and special tools for measuring wheels. The bad news is that outside tire R&D departments, I don't know where you can get your hands on any of the specialized tools to check the measurements.


The few times I ran into these issues in my 40-year career, it was with wheels made by smaller companies that do not have engineers who understand the importance of these specifications.


Bottom line I suspect the wheel .

[Blackrock]

I started busting tires the hard way when I was 10 years old. Fixing flats on tube type tires, 3 piece wheels and farm tractor tires. Dad hardly ever took a tire to town to be fixed.
Worked 40 years in the car, truck and ag industry doing it all. Weekends helping buddies mount new meats on their lifted trucks. From wheelbarrow to earthmovers I never met a tire and wheel combination that defeated me.

A lot of tire shop managers are just managers with limited practical experience. The guys busting tires have maybe one year or less and turnover is fast.

Their are two types of tire lube; the liquid soap and the gooey rubber grease type. Knowing when and how much to use will make a job go real easy. If they are breaking the duck bill then they sure as heck don't have a clue how to use the machine and to lube that bead coming off. On a rim clamp tire machine there is and adjustment to keep the duck bill from ever contacting the rim.

[cookinwitdiesel]

It seems that the issue was de-mounting the tire from the rim, NOT de-seating the bead. It also seems the issue was the people at that first shop not being prepared to deal with an aluminum rim in such a stiff tire (not to say it couldn't be done, they just lacked the skill/experience needed).

Through all of this, I learned to be more choosey about my tire shops and now am armed with the right questions to ask up front.