General Perceptions of a Tow Vehicle's Capability

[busterbrown]

I'm still bewildered on the thought process of folks who throw all the numbers out the window when in search of a capable TV. What's even worse is when there are accolades presented to the OP for his brand, without a care in the world that payload will be exceeded by nearly 1 ton when ready to roll to his favorite camping destination. Just food for thought...
21430

[notanlines]

Chris, about half come on here looking for approval of their less than stellar choices. Pulling 39 foot TT's with F-150's, towing big Montana's with 2500's, we could go on and on. Usually when shown how they have erred in their choices the arrogance starts our usual 4-page weight police/anti-weight police diatribe. (I like that word and don't get to use it often :D)
I have a close friend towing a very large Montana (2019) with an equally nice 2018 3500 Ram, equipped to the hilt, extra 50 gallon tank, bed cover, more Kentucky go-fasters than a 20 year old kid with a credit card! He won't pull over the CAT scale because he doesn't really know how to do it. Wife won't tow nor will she drive the truck. I haven't said much to him because he knows he's over but just doesn't care. He tows to Florida and then tows back to New Hampshire. Uses it sparingly during the summer so he can't justify the dually.
His weight of course isn't over by a ton, but it is by probably 8-900 pounds. Just one example of one who is aware of the circumstances but chooses to ignore it.

[busterbrown]

Chris, about half come on here looking for approval of their less than stellar choices. Pulling 39 foot TT's with F-150's, towing big Montana's with 2500's, we could go on and on. Usually when shown how they have erred in their choices the arrogance starts our usual 4-page weight police/anti-weight police diatribe. (I like that word and don't get to use it often :D)
I have a close friend towing a very large Montana (2019) with an equally nice 2018 3500 Ram, equipped to the hilt, extra 50 gallon tank, bed cover, more Kentucky go-fasters than a 20 year old kid with a credit card! He won't pull over the CAT scale because he doesn't really know how to do it. Wife won't tow nor will she drive the truck. I haven't said much to him because he knows he's over but just doesn't care. He tows to Florida and then tows back to New Hampshire. Uses it sparingly during the summer so he can't justify the dually.
His weight of course isn't over by a ton, but it is by probably 8-900 pounds. Just one example of one who is aware of the circumstances but chooses to ignore it.

Jim, you spell it out perfectly. Unfortunately, it's more common than one thinks. Just walk around a typical state park mid-summer and they'll be plenty of examples. Being receptive to advice given by those more qualified isn't the norm anymore. Find a couple social media responses that validate your beliefs and it's off to the races.

I did happen to respond to the OPs thread and picked up on some more-than-subtle 'uncertainty' in his retort.

21431

[linux3]

And you hope you don't meet them on I-40 heading for the Cumberland Gap.

[Logan X]

I don’t understand the logic people use when they justify towing over weight because they are only going a short distance. It seems like something bad could happen just as easily on a short trip as a long trip.

[rhagfo]

I don’t understand the logic people use when they justify towing over weight because they are only going a short distance. It seems like something bad could happen just as easily on a short trip as a long trip.
What is the saying Most accidents happen within 25 miles of home.

So what is confusing to many is MAX towing number for 2500's around 17,000#. Yes, your power-train will PULL that much if you have the correct stripper truck. The issue is it doesn't have the Payload capacity to carry the pin of and RV 5er that weight which will be in the neighborhood of 4,000#. You will not get that payload that can have that payload left after hitch etc. even in a 3500 SRW 3500.
You can pull a construction GN flatbed with equipment at or near that number, as you can adjust the load to reduce the amount of pin weight.

These are MAX numbers and options on your truck and stuff you need to haul your 5er will reduce these. That stuff adds up we have a payload sticker of 5,411# on our DRW, last scale trip ready to tow the truck with us and hitch and stuff scaled 9,950# on a GVWR of 14,000# so down to 4,050# of payload left for pin weight.

[drew999999]

While I AM a convert when it comes to payload capacity and having the right truck for the task, (I was one of the dummies that tried to get a 37ft TT to work with an F150), I think the tow rating is the one that is fuzzy.

I've upgraded my previous 2013 F150 CCSB Ecoboost to a 2016 F350 SSCB 6.2 gasser. Pulling my previous TT, it really was a night and day difference as alot here have described. I'm also now pulling a 5er. When hitting the scales, I'm under all of my weights (GVCR, front/rear axle, and published max trailer weight) BUT, I'm over on the GCWR by a few hundred lbs. Now some will say that I'm a danger to society since there's no way I can stop this combo. When looking at the Ford specs, a 2016 F350 CCSB SWD can either have a max GCWR of either 19,800 or 22,800. The only difference in these 2 configurations is the rear end gearing of 3.73 vs 4.30. The rest of the truck is exactly the same. This leads me to believe that GCWR is calculated based more on the TVs ability to pull the load as opposed to stopping it.

Now when it comes to payload, I personally don't see being 100-200lbs pounds over (on a 3/4 or 1 ton) being dangerous, but being 1lb over on axle weights are a hard line no-no in my book

[Logan X]

A coworker of mine bought a Ram 2500 diesel long bed about a year ago. He was showing me the truck and were talking about towing. He said he got the long bed so he could tow a fifth wheel. I asked him what his payload capacity was, he briefly had a confused look on his face, and then told me with supreme confidence that it was “about 4000 pounds.” I asked to see the payload sticker in his door (he didn’t know it was there or what it was) and it said 1900 pounds. We talked about hitch weights on fifth wheels and payload capacities. He had no idea! He had never even heard of this stuff before! The salesman told him “that truck can tow anything.”

[xrated]

I'd say that happens ^^^^^ a lot more often than any of us can believe. And to be honest, back in late 2010 when I bought my F250 Crew Cab diesel, I pretty much thought the same thing......F250 diesel...I should be able to tow about anything I wanted to tow when the time came to get my BIG TOY HAULER. a few years down the road. That day finally came along in 2016 and I got a good, big, healthy, dose of REALITY! Empty Pin weights for a 38-40' 5ver Toy Hauler were in the 2500-2700 lb range and 3600 lbs loaded to GVWR. I just about pooped my pants knowing I had 2148 lbs of payload capacity. What was I going to do? Long story short(er), I bought a tow behind T.H. that worked very well for us, even though it wasn't what I really wanted..I then bought A F350 Dually a couple of years ago, anticipating that large 5ver T.H. someday. On March 1st this year, that "someday" became reality, and the great news is that the truck is big enough, in all the capacities and weight ratings, it will handle my 42' T.H. with a GVWR of 20,000 lbs.

[sourdough]

As to how and why some end up in the predicament described in the first post, I think it is a multitude of things. First would be ignorance...just flat don't know about weights and the only thing they've heard or been told is how much it can pull. Then I think there's pride, some arrogance, embarrassment and indifference - those that flat just don't care.

Pride - you bought something overweight for your truck. You don't want to hear about it and certainly don't want folks harping at you about it. Embarrassment would come into play in that scenario as well. Hopefully the majority of those folks realize the importance of the problem and take steps to rectify it either with a bigger TV or smaller RV.

Arrogance would be, to me, those that know the numbers....but know more about them because they "know" special stuff..."it's a 1/2 ton but it's got bigger springs so it's as capable as a 3/4 ton"; (a 3/4 ton is really a 1 ton it just has a few different components", etc. etc. "The numbers are there but they're just a guideline".

Indifference are those that know they're overweight and don't care because bad things could never happen to them, their families or those around them. Done it for years....no problems.

I would also have to throw in those that bought something too big unknowingly, found out, really wanted to get a bigger truck but just couldn't swing it. In that case I think a person will use the trailer but being aware of the situation takes all precautions to minimize any potential problems and fixes it when they can.

It IS a complicated issue that involves a lot of human traits that vary immensely from one person to the next. It seems to me that it is a very cut and dried issue; and not hard to understand....if you want to - but that's just me. :D

[rhagfo]

I don’t understand the logic people use when they justify towing over weight because they are only going a short distance. It seems like something bad could happen just as easily on a short trip as a long trip.

Well part of it comes from the fact that a 250/2500 with a set of bags, can pull just as well as a 350/3500 with the same power-train. They are mostly the same vehicle biggest differences are likely springs, wheels and TIRES.

I towed a 32' 12,000#+ 5er for several years with a Ram 2500, Camper package, towing package, and optional higher capacity tires. yes it towed ok, but I was 1,200# to in the end 1,700# over the 8,800# GVWR of the TV. Well I kept thinking what if, involved in an accident my fault or NOT, there are way too many hungry lawyers out there now days, I am retired, and just could not afford the thought.
So as several on this forum we stepped up to a 3500 DRW, well 15 years newer, way more payload and while I thought the old experience was fine, the new is soooooo smooooth!!

Old package

https://i.imgur.com/VOYfP9d.jpg

New Package

https://i.imgur.com/cQQRWSE.jpg

[CWtheMan]

The following is an out of context quote from a NHTSA document. I'm passing it on here because I feel it's germane to the topic.

"The manufacturer’s certification label must show the GVWR. The GVWR must not be exceeded by overloading the vehicle. There is little the government can do to assist a consumer who has purchased a vehicle that has insufficient cargo capacity for its intended use."

[Frank G]

Well part of it comes from the fact that a 250/2500 with a set of bags, can pull just as well as a 350/3500 with the same power-train. They are mostly the same vehicle biggest differences are likely springs, wheels and TIRES.

I towed a 32' 12,000#+ 5er for several years with a Ram 2500, Camper package, towing package, and optional higher capacity tires. yes it towed ok, but I was 1,200# to in the end 1,700# over the 8,800# GVWR of the TV. Well I kept thinking what if, involved in an accident my fault or NOT, there are way too many hungry lawyers out there now days, I am retired, and just could not afford the thought.
So as several on this forum we stepped up to a 3500 DRW, well 15 years newer, way more payload and while I thought the old experience was fine, the new is soooooo smooooth!!

Old package

https://i.imgur.com/VOYfP9d.jpg

New Package

https://i.imgur.com/cQQRWSE.jpg

You cannot compare a 2nd generation Dodge with a 4th generation Ram. The truth is in comparing a 4th generation Ram 2500 with a 3500 CTD 4WD SRW with the same powertrain they are exactly the same except for the door sticker and the coil suspension under the 2500. Yes, same everything, tires, rims, brakes, rear axle, gear ratios etc. I am not advocating you overload any vehicle. Both vehicles (the Ram 2500 and Ram 3500) are designed to pull & stop the same GCWR with 800 lb. ft. of torque. Question, is the TV designed to stop the towed vehicle or is the towed vehicle to have adequate brakes?

[MickLittle]

I hate to admit... I too was under the same assumption with a F-350 SRW. I thought I could tow "Anything" It wasn't until reading on this forum of the weight limitations of vehicles. All I ever paid attention to was the "tow capacity"
I remember back when I picked up my toy hauler, I asked the young man from Camping World, going over my PDI, if my truck was OK to pull this unit. His reply was, "Depends how you load it" (At least he was honest. Compliment to CW of Meridian Idaho)
Next step was to upgrade to a DRW so I wouldn't worry so much about load balancing. Very well worth it!! (I also was scolded on this forum on another OP question about his F-250) Just had to throw that one in. Ha Ha!
Definitely have learned a whole lot more in the past few years. Thanks again to this forum for setting me straight!

[Pull Toy]

"It'll tow anything!

[sourdough]

"It'll tow anything!

Not gonna have to worry about a slider!!:lol:

[Northofu1]

The same can be said about anything that people do in life.
Why does it take a heart attack to figure out eating fried chicken for 40+ plus years is not good for you. So get that bypass and start eating fried chicken again. It's the human condition.
Why the heck do people deep fry mars bars? :lol:

[rhagfo]

You cannot compare a 2nd generation Dodge with a 4th generation Ram. The truth is in comparing a 4th generation Ram 2500 with a 3500 CTD 4WD SRW with the same powertrain they are exactly the same except for the door sticker and the coil suspension under the 2500. Yes, same everything, tires, rims, brakes, rear axle, gear ratios etc. I am not advocating you overload any vehicle. Both vehicles (the Ram 2500 and Ram 3500) are designed to pull & stop the same GCWR with 800 lb. ft. of torque. Question, is the TV designed to stop the towed vehicle or is the towed vehicle to have adequate brakes?

Well not exactly true, especially with the Ram 2500 to 3500 SRW.

The 2500 is only available with 3.42"s and 68RFE transmission.

The 3500 SRW is available with 3.42's, 3.73's and 4.10's and either the 68RFE or Aisin transmissions. In addition with the Aisin you get the HO CTD now 400 hp and 1,000# torque.

Also, I CAN compare my 2nd Gen to a 4th Gen, a whole lot better TV, I could have just bought a 2nd Gen DRW, but what I had was that with SRW's.

What worries me is the number of those towing heavy with a 250/2500 or even a 350/3500 SRW that only have a GVWR of 11,500# have NEVER been to a scale!
Ram as of 2018 was the only 350/3500 SRW with a 12,300# GVWR.

[Frank G]

Well not exactly true, especially with the Ram 2500 to 3500 SRW.

The 2500 is only available with 3.42"s and 68RFE transmission.

The 3500 SRW is available with 3.42's, 3.73's and 4.10's and either the 68RFE or Aisin transmissions. In addition with the Aisin you get the HO CTD now 400 hp and 1,000# torque.

Also, I CAN compare my 2nd Gen to a 4th Gen, a whole lot better TV, I could have just bought a 2nd Gen DRW, but what I had was that with SRW's.

What worries me is the number of those towing heavy with a 250/2500 or even a 350/3500 SRW that only have a GVWR of 11,500# have NEVER been to a scale!
Ram as of 2018 was the only 350/3500 SRW with a 12,300# GVWR.

A 4th generation 3500 with the 68RFE is only available with the 3:42, exact same powertrain as the 2500. Apples to Apples. The Aisin is another ballgame. It takes a 5th generation to get the 400HP, 1000 lb.ft of torque.

[rhagfo]

A 4th generation 3500 with the 68RFE is only available with the 3:42, exact same powertrain as the 2500. Apples to Apples. The Aisin is another ballgame. It takes a 5th generation to get the 400HP, 1000 lb.ft of torque.

In a 4th gen you can get 3.73 or 4.10 with a 68RFE, but DRW only.
2019 3.73 is standard with 68RFE 4.10 is optional for SRW with 68RFE.

ON EDIT: The 5gen 2500's have 3.73's standard with CTD, and can be had with 4.10. It also has a MAX towing rating 19,780# :facepalm:

[Ken / Claudia]

I am thankful that many have asked and learned when their TV is too small and came back on here too say how much better the right TV made to their towing experience.

[busterbrown]

I am thankful that many have asked and learned when their TV is too small and came back on here too say how much better the right TV made to their towing experience.

More often than not, that's usually the case. I'm one of them. Conversely, the arrogance/ denial is the dark side of the equation that alarms those well-versed in the RV community.

[travelin texans]

"It'll tow anything!

It may be able to tow anything, but man that's one UGLY truck!!!

[rhagfo]

In a 4th gen you can get 3.73 or 4.10 with a 68RFE, but DRW only.
2019 3.73 is standard with 68RFE 4.10 is optional for SRW with 68RFE.

ON EDIT: The 5gen 2500's have 3.73's standard with CTD, and can be had with 4.10. It also has a MAX towing rating 19,780# :facepalm:

Well as bad as the Max towing at for a 2019 Ram Tradesman of 19,780#, they also post a Max payload of 4,050#. No mention of the fact those numbers are mutually exclusive! It also means that the Tradesman with that rating only weighed 5,850# when it left the factory floor!

[Laredo Tugger]

I just left a camp ground this morning. The space next to me had a 40 ft. TH,golf cart, DW,kids,dog and ect... The TV was I thought a SRW 3500 with a hopped up motor and exhaust that was evident when he drove out of his campsite.
Dad came out while I was flushing my black tanks. I asked if his truck was a 3500 (there were no markings on the truck except one "Cummins Turbo Diesel") badge on each side, nope a 2500. He talked about the tuning he was running and said he tows at between 77-79 MPH. He said he has looked at a few duallys but was happy with his TV.
What do you do? It's in the same category as giving advice to somebody about their marriage or raising their kids. One of those situations you just walk away from and go home and post about it here. I guess I left my "weight police " badge at home. Looking back, I guess a visit to the yellow sticker was in order.
RMc

[sourdough]

I just left a camp ground this morning. The space next to me had a 40 ft. TH,golf cart, DW,kids,dog and ect... The TV was I thought a SRW 3500 with a hopped up motor and exhaust that was evident when he drove out of his campsite.
Dad came out while I was flushing my black tanks. I asked if his truck was a 3500 (there were no markings on the truck except one "Cummins Turbo Diesel") badge on each side, nope a 2500. He talked about the tuning he was running and said he tows at between 77-79 MPH. He said he has looked at a few duallys but was happy with his TV.
What do you do? It's in the same category as giving advice to somebody about their marriage or raising their kids. One of those situations you just walk away from and go home and post about it here. I guess I left my "weight police " badge at home. Looking back, I guess a visit to the yellow sticker was in order.
RMc


Sometimes there's not much you can do. The tone of the conversation while talking about the truck can give you a little bit of an idea what topics to bring up. I've found that generally those that have spent a lot of money "hopping" a truck up (read; noisier, louder, whish and whine) think they have "the beast" and aren't going to be too open to anything perceived as criticism. About the only thing I could have thought of is to ask if it was rated to carry that big of a trailer with a surprised look - and if possible, brought the sticker into the conversation. On the other hand, the conversation very possibly would have ended when the truck was questioned. Kind of a "slippery slope". In that case, observe, shake your head, go home and post about it here while hoping you don't run across him while he's towing at 77-79mph......:D

[busterbrown]

I just left a camp ground this morning. The space next to me had a 40 ft. TH,golf cart, DW,kids,dog and ect... The TV was I thought a SRW 3500 with a hopped up motor and exhaust that was evident when he drove out of his campsite.
Dad came out while I was flushing my black tanks. I asked if his truck was a 3500 (there were no markings on the truck except one "Cummins Turbo Diesel") badge on each side, nope a 2500. He talked about the tuning he was running and said he tows at between 77-79 MPH. He said he has looked at a few duallys but was happy with his TV.
What do you do? It's in the same category as giving advice to somebody about their marriage or raising their kids. One of those situations you just walk away from and go home and post about it here. I guess I left my "weight police " badge at home. Looking back, I guess a visit to the yellow sticker was in order.
RMc

Debadged, deleted and tuned with owner's satisfaction. Do you think a little yellow and white sticker would convince him otherwise?

[Laredo Tugger]

That's a good point busterbrown.
RMc

[Logan X]

I just left a camp ground this morning. The space next to me had a 40 ft. TH,golf cart, DW,kids,dog and ect... The TV was I thought a SRW 3500 with a hopped up motor and exhaust that was evident when he drove out of his campsite.
Dad came out while I was flushing my black tanks. I asked if his truck was a 3500 (there were no markings on the truck except one "Cummins Turbo Diesel") badge on each side, nope a 2500. He talked about the tuning he was running and said he tows at between 77-79 MPH. He said he has looked at a few duallys but was happy with his TV.
What do you do? It's in the same category as giving advice to somebody about their marriage or raising their kids. One of those situations you just walk away from and go home and post about it here. I guess I left my "weight police " badge at home. Looking back, I guess a visit to the yellow sticker was in order.
RMc


I work with two guys that both have essentially the same set up that is mentioned above. I have had friendly talks with them several times and they know they are overloaded. They just don’t care. I don’t understand that mentality.

[crk112]

Seems people will pull quite a variety of hairbrained excuses out of their hat (or other dark space) to justify poor choices.

The dealers only exacerbate the problem.

[Bolo4u]

I am thankful that many have asked and learned when their TV is too small and came back on here too say how much better the right TV made to their towing experience.

More often than not, that's usually the case. I'm one of them. Conversely, the arrogance/ denial is the dark side of the equation that alarms those well-versed in the RV community.

<raises hand> Same here. Very happy with my Ram 3500 DRW TV. And even though we no longer have the 5r (sold to a survivor of the Camp Fire), we'll be ahead of the game when its time for a new 5r. Although we do have a large lounge pull car hauler trailer for a couple of our toys, and it pulls it like it snot there.

[Fishsizzle]

I’m am one that was genuinely shocked that the “tow guide” from Ford wasn’t correct. I hadn’t seen or even heard if the payload sticker. Diesels tow anything I thought.

Well fast forward a year and I have learned a lot being here, and I’m grateful. It’s not an easy pill to swallow. I’m still in the over weight crowd, but I don’t promote or condone. As soon as financially possible I’ll grab an F450. Probably order one this fall. Until then I’ll keep my head down and cruise around to my camping spots.

Most here have been great at helping, but attitude is everything. It’s all in the approach. If you are wrong, you’re wrong. Just own it and fix it when you can.

[ken56]

I admit to being ignorant as a newbie too. How and why would you understand the numbers if you have never had to deal with them before? Call me a slow learner but it has taken me years to really understand the 'numbers'. I have also been helpful to friends and neighbors when they have decided to jump into the RV world with much thanks from them avoiding a mistake.


The purchase of an RV is an emotional thing. The bells and whistles and bling of the new trailer is overpowering. The secondary thought of "can I pull this" really isn't a factor until its too late for most new buyers.

[xrated]

I admit to being ignorant as a newbie too. How and why would you understand the numbers if you have never had to deal with them before? Call me a slow learner but it has taken me years to really understand the 'numbers'. I have also been helpful to friends and neighbors when they have decided to jump into the RV world with much thanks from them avoiding a mistake.


The purchase of an RV is an emotional thing. The bells and whistles and bling of the new trailer is overpowering. The secondary thought of "can I pull this" really isn't a factor until its too late for most new buyers.

Man of man......ain't that ^^^^ the truth!

[jsb5717]

I'm not challenging the wisdom here...I'm genuinely curious.

2 questions

1.
In most manufacturing where tolerance ratings equate to safety ratings, don't most manufacturers (of any widgit) understate their ratings significantly for liability's sake? If something has a real tolerance to handle 10k Lbs the manufacturer might post a rating of 3-5k lbs to make sure that users stay well within the widgits capabilities, no one gets hurt, and no one gets sued.

My Andersen Hitch, for instance, has a rating of 20K lbs. But in crush tests it won't fail until over 50k lbs.

Are truck manufacturers understating the real capabilities of the trucks or are their tolerances much tighter to reality? I understand that the manufacturers liability is limited to the stated ratings but...

2.
What part does experience and/or skill play? You can match up an trailer with a TV all within the proper published weight ratings, put them in the hands of a rookie, and have them wrecked pretty quickly. He turns too tightly, doesn't know how to properly set the trailer brake, doesn't understand safe driving distances or turning speeds, etc.

You can also tow a trailer with an underrated TV with an experienced, skilled driver and never have an incident. Primarily because the experienced driver knows the feel of the length of the combo and the feel of the weight and the feel of his stopping capacity, etc., and easily compensates as he would in any driving conditions.

I'm not suggesting that someone with skill could/should tow a 15k lbs trailer with a VW but if a trailer is marginally over a TV's ratings, and still within the TV real tolerances, how big is the risk and is the driver the variable?

I've wondered this for years. What's the collective wisdom?

[HitFactor]

My guess is safety margins are a result of postulated events that account for the factors you mention.

Ratings certainly account for other than normal operating conditions.

[busterbrown]

I'm not challenging the wisdom here...I'm genuinely curious.

2 questions

1.
In most manufacturing where tolerance ratings equate to safety ratings, don't most manufacturers (of any widgit) understate their ratings significantly for liability's sake? If something has a real tolerance to handle 10k Lbs the manufacturer might post a rating of 3-5k lbs to make sure that users stay well within the widgits capabilities, no one gets hurt, and no one gets sued.

My Andersen Hitch, for instance, has a rating of 20K lbs. But in crush tests it won't fail until over 50k lbs.

Are truck manufacturers understating the real capabilities of the trucks or are their tolerances much tighter to reality? I understand that the manufacturers liability is limited to the stated ratings but...

2.
What part does experience and/or skill play? You can match up an trailer with a TV all within the proper published weight ratings, put them in the hands of a rookie, and have them wrecked pretty quickly. He turns too tightly, doesn't know how to properly set the trailer brake, doesn't understand safe driving distances or turning speeds, etc.

You can also tow a trailer with an underrated TV with an experienced, skilled driver and never have an incident. Primarily because the experienced driver knows the feel of the length of the combo and the feel of the weight and the feel of his stopping capacity, etc., and easily compensates as he would in any driving conditions.

I'm not suggesting that someone with skill could/should tow a 15k lbs trailer with a VW but if a trailer is marginally over a TV's ratings, and still within the TV real tolerances, how big is the risk and is the driver the variable?

I've wondered this for years. What's the collective wisdom?

It's not based exclusively on failure rates of individual components in the truck. A 6500 lb GAWR axle may not fatigue enough until it reaches triple its derated specs. But how does the truck pull, carry, and handle the load as an assembled vehicle? What happens in undesirable and unforeseen driving circumstances when that same vehicle is faced with the burden of control, without reliance on driver skillset? Will the truck be able to avoid the obstacle, harness the sway, or adequately provide braking power to load if the trailer brakes should fail? At this point, I would hope that the TV in question has more than adequate reserves in all it's published specs, and not hopeful that an engineering team "may have" or "may not have" derated or underrated those critical components.

Also, this biggest problem to a failure, crash, or injury when towing beyond the capability of any truck is in the aftermath of the investigation. Fingers will be pointed, litigation may happen, and it may cost the negligent driver a lot more than an insurance deductible.

[daveinaz]

Chris, about half come on here looking for approval of their less than stellar choices. Pulling 39 foot TT's with F-150's, towing big Montana's with 2500's, we could go on and on. Usually when shown how they have erred in their choices the arrogance starts our usual 4-page weight police/anti-weight police diatribe. (I like that word and don't get to use it often :D)
I have a close friend towing a very large Montana (2019) with an equally nice 2018 3500 Ram, equipped to the hilt, extra 50 gallon tank, bed cover, more Kentucky go-fasters than a 20 year old kid with a credit card! He won't pull over the CAT scale because he doesn't really know how to do it. Wife won't tow nor will she drive the truck. I haven't said much to him because he knows he's over but just doesn't care. He tows to Florida and then tows back to New Hampshire. Uses it sparingly during the summer so he can't justify the dually.
His weight of course isn't over by a ton, but it is by probably 8-900 pounds. Just one example of one who is aware of the circumstances but chooses to ignore it.

I take it he'd be within specs if he had gotten a dually right?

[Frank G]

The TV Brakes are not designed to stop/control a trailer with defective or inoperative brakes on the trailer. The brakes on the TV are only designed to preform within the required stopping distances at or below the GVW of the TV.

The above statement may not be true for class 8 trucks as the trucking industry does a lot of brake testing.

I have never been able to find any stop time/distance testing for the RV industry.

After reading hundred's of posts on the safety of not exceeding the GVW, there are a lot of comments about better (safer) brakes on larger GVW TV's. My point, don't expect that new 3500DRW TV with a 18K toy hauler to stop on a long 6% grade with failed trailer brakes and no exhaust brake. IMHO the diesel exhaust brake is one of the best features in our TV's, it will save many life's.

[sourdough]

I'm not challenging the wisdom here...I'm genuinely curious.

2 questions

1.
In most manufacturing where tolerance ratings equate to safety ratings, don't most manufacturers (of any widgit) understate their ratings significantly for liability's sake? If something has a real tolerance to handle 10k Lbs the manufacturer might post a rating of 3-5k lbs to make sure that users stay well within the widgits capabilities, no one gets hurt, and no one gets sued.

My Andersen Hitch, for instance, has a rating of 20K lbs. But in crush tests it won't fail until over 50k lbs.

Are truck manufacturers understating the real capabilities of the trucks or are their tolerances much tighter to reality? I understand that the manufacturers liability is limited to the stated ratings but...

2.
What part does experience and/or skill play? You can match up an trailer with a TV all within the proper published weight ratings, put them in the hands of a rookie, and have them wrecked pretty quickly. He turns too tightly, doesn't know how to properly set the trailer brake, doesn't understand safe driving distances or turning speeds, etc.

You can also tow a trailer with an underrated TV with an experienced, skilled driver and never have an incident. Primarily because the experienced driver knows the feel of the length of the combo and the feel of the weight and the feel of his stopping capacity, etc., and easily compensates as he would in any driving conditions.

I'm not suggesting that someone with skill could/should tow a 15k lbs trailer with a VW but if a trailer is marginally over a TV's ratings, and still within the TV real tolerances, how big is the risk and is the driver the variable?

I've wondered this for years. What's the collective wisdom?

The "safe" weight is the one published on the vehicle. Underrated? Extra margins built in? Who knows. Moreover, it shouldn't be of concern to anyone except those that want to exceed the established weights for a certain truck/trailer. You will find these statements on the stickered weights; "do not exceed", "must not exceed". Those mean what they say, not "these are guidelines if you want to follow them" or "do not exceed....but, we have a 10k lb. margin built in".

Exceeding the established weights can have many effects. They give you a warranty for 36k miles? 60k? Those are based on you living within the confines of their established criteria. The engineers have established a safe weight limit for various components so they can last x amount of miles. Putting loads on components far above what the specs call for can fatigue that component much sooner and cause failure.

Do I think there is a built in margin....I hope so. Does any manufacturer publish that or even mention it? No. Why? It's there to give you that margin...and them. If they published the very most a vehicle could carry we would still have this conversation and still have those that thought they should exceed it because it's in some folks nature to push the envelope....even though that margin did not exist.

For me, take the numbers. Deal with it and buy the products that fit - a person chooses to get into the RV life; do it right. Hope like heck there is some sort of margin built in in the event you are faced with some emergency maneuver that stresses every piece of equipment you have to the limit....and yes, those things do happen....even to those that think they can't.;)

[jsb5717]

Good feedback, thank you. To quote Jeff Goldblum in Jurassic Park:

"You spent so much time trying to figure out if you could, you didn't stop to ask if you should"

There are a lot of challenges out there. Ignorance, Arrogance, Stupidity, Wisdom, Experience, Compliance. They are all on the roads. Sites like this are a great help and should be required reading for anyone before being allowed to buy a towable.

Happy Easter and stay safe!

[rhagfo]

Chris, about half come on here looking for approval of their less than stellar choices. Pulling 39 foot TT's with F-150's, towing big Montana's with 2500's, we could go on and on. Usually when shown how they have erred in their choices the arrogance starts our usual 4-page weight police/anti-weight police diatribe. (I like that word and don't get to use it often :D)
I have a close friend towing a very large Montana (2019) with an equally nice 2018 3500 Ram, equipped to the hilt, extra 50 gallon tank, bed cover, more Kentucky go-fasters than a 20 year old kid with a credit card! He won't pull over the CAT scale because he doesn't really know how to do it. Wife won't tow nor will she drive the truck. I haven't said much to him because he knows he's over but just doesn't care. He tows to Florida and then tows back to New Hampshire. Uses it sparingly during the summer so he can't justify the dually.
His weight of course isn't over by a ton, but it is by probably 8-900 pounds. Just one example of one who is aware of the circumstances but chooses to ignore it.

Jim, this is why we chose to go with a DRW rather SRW Ram 3500. The Ram 3500 SRW can have a GVWR of 12,300#, as much as the 2012 DRW. Can have a payload at or near 4,000#. Well so glad I wanted to future proof our selves.

Current Ram Laramie 3500 DRW has a yellow sticker payload of 5,411#, well as I have posted in other threads I ran the TV across ODOT scales ready to pull with full fuel, full DEF, hitch, and all of the stuff we carry, 9,950# on a 14,000# GVWR, so down to 4,050# left for pin.

Had we gone with a SRW 3500 (12,300# GVWR) we would have had 1,700# less payload. Take the 1,700# from the 4,050# we have now and you get 2,350#. We would have been about 350# over GVWR with our 2,700# pin.
When I see Ford and GM SRW 350/3500's (Only 11,500# GVWR) towing large 5er either they don't carry anything in the TV, or are over GVWR.
We full time and the Ram is our only vehicle so it is a daily driver, and we both drive it without issue.

So unless the next Home is a DRV Mobile Suites we should be fine.

[ctbruce]

You have to ask, is there a safety margin built in? Probably, but no one except the engineers know what it is. So you can't count on what you dont "know".

[pdaniel]

Debadged, deleted and tuned with owner's satisfaction. Do you think a little yellow and white sticker would convince him otherwise?
I went down that path of using a power tuner on a 2nd generation RAM 2500 Cummins. I'll not make that mistake again. I have met a few with TVs that are less that optimal for their need so they "chip" or buy a power programmer not realizing there are many other components that are not designed to tow/haul that weight. But, I see them all of the time and try to keep my distance.
So now I tow with a 2016 Ram 3500, SRW HO Cummins with AISIN transmission. No need to "power tune". My 5th wheel is 35 feet, 2350 HW, 15,000 GVWR, which is within the TV limitations.

[cookinwitdiesel]

Tuning an engine to improve towing is just such a joke. Power is never the issue, that is why the F-150 with a turbo'd V6 CAN tow stuff and get it moving. Industrial equipment that moves 10s of tons may only have 200 HP (but a few thousand lb-ft of torque). Tuning the engine may help HP some, but torque is largely a matter of engine geometry and design. That is why gassers work well enough (although diesels work better). Suspension, brakes, chassis, axles, those are the "towing factor" things. A "chip" ain't gonna solve those deficiencies.

I am in the club of "not having enough truck" since when we bought it, we never thought that a 5er could possibly be in our future (lol). We currently do not have the 5er yet but have started looking at some and my truck is woefully not up to the task. A well sized TT will put my truck at its limit to the shock of many fellow campers and sales people haha

[BadmanRick]

Sounds to me that if you are have enough money to purchase a Very Large 5th wheel you have enough money to purchase the proper tow vehicle. At least a 450/4500 or higher just to be safe.
An aluminum Ford F-150 will not safely pull a 37’ tt. I don’t care what they say the tow rating is. When you try and tow a trailer that weighs twice as much as the truck the tail wags the dog. My friend tried this combo and nearly killed himself.
Just saying. Better safe than sorry.

[jsb5717]

I think the need for tuning is directly related to the truck. To me it's not about trying to compensate for not having enough truck (or shouldn't be). With the newer trucks I can agree. However...

My last 5er was an older Kit Roadranger that I pulled with a 2000 Ford F250 7.3 diesel. It was plenty of truck for the trailer. I used a tuner to change it's shift patterns for towing which made all the difference in the world when climbing hills. The tranny was built to heavy duty spec but was still only a 4 speed tranny. Changing shift patterns dramatically helped to hold the RPM's up so downshifting was minimized which improved the entire experience.

My current 2012 RAM diesel has a 6 speed tranny and I'm noticing much less drop in RPM's. I do have a tuner but the difference from Stock to Tow is minimal compared to the Ford.

The more speeds they build into the tranny, the less alteration seems to be needed...if any at all.

[cookinwitdiesel]

I think the issue of tuning is directly related to the truck. To me it's not about trying to compensate for not having enough truck. With the newer trucks I can agree. However...

My last 5er was an older Kit Roadranger that I pulled with a 2000 Ford F250 7.3 diesel. It was plenty of truck for the trailer. I used a tuner to change it's shift patterns for towing which made all the difference in the world when climbing hills. The tranny was built to heavy duty spec but was still only a 4 speed tranny. Changing shift patterns dramatically helped to hold the RPM's up so downshifting was minimized which improved the entire experience.

My current 2012 RAM diesel has a 6 speed tranny and I'm noticing much less drop in RPM's. I do have a tuner but the difference from Stock to Tow is minimal compared to the Ford.

The more speeds they build into the tranny, the less alteration seems to be needed...if any at all.

And the new gen GMC/Chevys will have a 10-speed Allison, should be interesting haha

[jsb5717]

And the new gen GMC/Chevys will have a 10-speed Allison, should be interesting haha

Indeed! Likely no need at all for tuning. I paid $3500 for my last tranny (6-7 years ago). I wonder what it would cost to replace one of the newer ones.

[drew999999]

At least a 450/4500 or higher just to be safe.
An aluminum Ford F-150 will not safely pull a 37’ tt. I don’t care what they say the tow rating is. When you try and tow a trailer that weighs twice as much as the truck the tail wags the dog. .

While I agree (from experience) that an F150 is not the best choice for pulling a 37ft TT, I think saying at least a 450/4500 is a bit of a stretch. Just got done pulling a Passport 3350BH for 2 years with an F150. I hated it, and kept it slow and fairly local, but it was capable and not unsafe. Although I had made a few upgrades to the rear suspension, shocks, sway bar, and added a Propride hitch. Expensive? Yep. Fun to tow? Nope. Capable for short runs? Absolutely.

I then upgraded the TV to an F350 and it was easier than pulling my boat with the F150. One handed relaxed pull at 62mph on I35. There's a world of difference in suspensions between an F150 and F250 and higher. Most of my issues seemed to surround how the length of the TT would be able to manhandle the independent front suspension of the truck. One little push from a semi would cause a major shift in the orientation of the front of the F150. IMO, if all weights are good, a 37ft TT will handle effortlessly behind any SD truck.

But for me its a non issue now. Since I had upgraded the truck, and now had a payload capacity went from 1406 to 3633, I now have a new 5er.

[Fishsizzle]

And the new gen GMC/Chevys will have a 10-speed Allison, should be interesting haha

Kinda have to chuckle, not sure they can justify calling it an Allison when they got together with Ford to design and build the 10 speed

[cookinwitdiesel]

Pretty confident the Allison 10-speed is not the Ford/Chevy 10-speed found in the F-150 and 1500

[Fishsizzle]

Pretty confident the Allison 10-speed is not the Ford/Chevy 10-speed found in the F-150 and 1500

Allison “Branded” transmission built by GM. Who has an 11 year joint agreement with Ford to design and share internals.

https://www.forconstructionpros.com/trucks/trucks-accessories/pickup-trucks-vans/press-release/21035446/allison-transmission-allison-10speed-is-option-on-2020-silverado-hd-pickups

I doubt we will know for sure until each come out and get tore down. But....isn’t it strange how both Ford and Chevy have a 10 speed all tested and ready to go for 2020 HD/Superduty trucks?

[cookinwitdiesel]

I was not aware of new Ford SDs getting a 10-speed as well. That is more suspect. Although not improbable to see the industry move that direction as a whole just as they did with 6-speeds.

[busterbrown]

These FB forums are fun to peruse through. I can't make this stuff up. My concern is how much of these responses influence new RV owners.
21547

[sourdough]

And what's that saying?....You can't fix stupid? :facepalm:

[busterbrown]

And what's that saying?....You can't fix stupid? :facepalm:

I guess he's saying that you'll be looking at his TDI tailpipe in your RAM 2500 along interstate 70 cresting over the Loveland pass as he tows his 26' 6000 lb tt in full control. Who needs a capable HD truck (or any truck for that matter).That's all.

[notanlines]

Quoted from https://www.heavyequipmentguide.ca/article/29622/gm-to-produce-allison-10-speed-transmission-for-chevrolet-silverado-25003500-hd-trucks

"Allison Transmission Holdings Inc., the largest global provider of commercial duty fully automatic transmissions, announced , along with Chevrolet, the availability of a 10-speed, fully automatic transmission in the new Class 2/3, 2020 Silverado 2500/3500 HD trucks. Equipped with the Allison branded 10-speed transmission, the 2020 Silverado HD will debut in February 2019.

We built the new 2020 Silverado HD with more differentiation than ever before, to meet the needs and priorities of our customers," said Jaclyn McQuaid, chief engineer, Silverado HD."

[Fishsizzle]

Quoted from https://www.heavyequipmentguide.ca/article/29622/gm-to-produce-allison-10-speed-transmission-for-chevrolet-silverado-25003500-hd-trucks

"Allison Transmission Holdings Inc., the largest global provider of commercial duty fully automatic transmissions, announced , along with Chevrolet, the availability of a 10-speed, fully automatic transmission in the new Class 2/3, 2020 Silverado 2500/3500 HD trucks. Equipped with the Allison branded 10-speed transmission, the 2020 Silverado HD will debut in February 2019.

We built the new 2020 Silverado HD with more differentiation than ever before, to meet the needs and priorities of our customers," said Jaclyn McQuaid, chief engineer, Silverado HD."


??????? Same article I posted?



Allison Transmission Holdings Inc. announces the availability of a 10-speed, fully automatic transmission in the 2020 Chevrolet Silverado 2500/3500 HD trucks. Equipped with the Allison branded 10-speed transmission, the 2020 Silverado HD will debut in February 2019.

“We built the new 2020 Silverado HD with more differentiation than ever before, to meet the needs and priorities of our customers,” said Jaclyn McQuaid, chief engineer, Silverado HD.

Rest of paragraph:


“By offering the new Allison 10-speed, tested and validated in partnership with Allison Transmission, each transmission will deliver the legendary quality and durability that customers have come to expect."


And the next paragraph after quoted:


“The Allison branded automatic transmission, manufactured by General Motors, is designed for high-performance and low-maintenance.”

It wasn’t my intent to pee on Chevy Jim, it’s just it isn’t an Allison transmission. It’s built by GM and I’m sure GM used some cash or a heavy hand about future of GM using Allison, for Allison to “lend” their Brand to the Transmission. Chevy makes a nice truck, really they all do.

[notanlines]

Justin, all is good! I think we just got our info at the same place. Look for my PM.
Jim

[Fishsizzle]

Justin, all is good! I think we just got our info at the same place. Look for my PM.
Jim

No worries at all. Things get jumbled here, especially for me and my small attention span!

[tri-five]

My best advice to anyone towing anything is know your equipment to the extent possible. Sales banter, trucks or RV's, is for one thing only. Get your signature on the contract. Actual weights and configuration of my rig follows:
2017 Chevrolet 3500 CrewCab, standard box & SRW.
2017 Keystone Avalanche 321RS.
Truck is full fuel, full compliment of hand tools, & B&W Companion hitch 20,000lb GTW / 5000lb vertical.
Trailer is loaded for camping including food, coolers, grills, tables, etc. Full Propane, ~40gal fresh water, dry black and gray tanks.

TRUCK: (truck / truck & trailer)
LF:2410/2400 RF:2320/2310
LR:1740/3080 RR:1800/3180
GVW: 10970 GVWR: 11500
Curb weight(GM):7550 Actual:8270
Tires:3525 x 4

TRAILER:
LF: 3770 RF: 3290
LR: 3450 RR: 2870
GVW: 13380 GVWR: 15000
Tires: 4400 x 4
Axles: 7000 x 2

Complete unit loaded ready to tow(Less people & pets):
GCW: 24350 GCWR: 25300

My Opinion:
While I believe I can maintain weights within limits, it does not change the fact that this rig is near capacity. In fact, loading the trailer to the GVWR will push the GCWR over limit. Every single one of these limits when exceeded, either one or all, can make you liable in a crash. Be Safe, be responsible, and most of all, be confident that you know your rig. The safety of your family and the families of others depend on it.

[Snoking]

I'm still bewildered on the thought process of folks who throw all the numbers out the window when in search of a capable TV. What's even worse is when there are accolades presented to the OP for his brand, without a care in the world that payload will be exceeded by nearly 1 ton when ready to roll to his favorite camping destination. Just food for thought...
21430

I can tell you that with a 2905 dry pin weight when loaded he will be over his RGAWR of 6500 lbs.

[Cfitzkp]

What year was your f150 and gcwr and what was your travel trailers weight? I think im in same boat as you were