I'm over my GAWR, what to do?

[AlpineKeith]

I took my rig to a Cat scale and found out I am over my GAWR by 80lbs with my trailer being EMPTY! Being a newbie, I am at a loss as to what to do about this situation. Here are my stats:

2016 F250 6.7 diesel 2019 Alpine 3400RS
3.55 axle ratio GVWR 15,0000
GVWR 10,000 GAWR (each axle) 7000
GCWR 23,500

scale info: Truck Only: Steer axle 4860
Drive axle 3540
Gross Wt 8400
Truck and Trailer: Steer Axle 4840
Drive axle 6180
Trailer Axle 9960
Gross Wt 20980

I presume by loading the trailer, more weight will be put on the rear axle. I do not want to tow unsafe. Is there anything I can do to rectify this?

[Tbos]

2 trailer axles at 7000lbs each means you can have 14000lbs on those axles. 20237 Here is the scale ticket for my Alpine 3651RL and my F350. All within vehicle limits.

[Ken / Claudia]

The short answer, buy a bigger truck or a smaller trailer.

[Wxman]

OP, am I right that you are concerned about GAWR of the rear axle on your truck? You show a weight of 6180 loaded for the rear (drive axle). I am thinking your rear (drive axle) GAWR is 6100 and thus the 80lb difference.

The rear GAWR for your truck doesn't appear in your original post and if I am correct above, may be confusing some who could give some advice. No 5er here so I am hesitant to say anything.

Good luck

[66joej]

If you are not fulltiming punt the washer/dryer. If you have them.

[busterbrown]

Your pin weight loaded on that trailer will be well north of 3,000 lbs. You have more capacity violations than just GAWR. What's the listed truck's payload on the placard? Those F250 diesels will be very limited, especially when they are optioned out.

Ken is spot on. Bigger truck or smaller trailer are your only safe bets.

[Tbos]

If Wxman is correct you may need to upgrade your truck. If you load the rig up to reduce the in weight it may not ride properly.

[JRTJH]

Owning the same truck (2015 F250 Lariat diesel) I can tell you that the payload is not greater than 2000 pounds. (f you own an XL or XLT, not more than 2100 pounds. That trailer, empty, as you found, has a pin weight of 2410. Add a washer/dryer, propane, batteries, equipment, a passenger in the truck, fifth wheel hitch and you're going to be well over GVW, RAWR and probably tire capacity.

That trailer is "at least a F350 SRW" and likely, when loaded for extended trips with a generator in the bed of the truck, a DRW candidate.....

As suggested, get a bigger truck or a smaller trailer. There's not much "silk purse" in your "sow's ear" .... (unfortunately).....

[wiredgeorge]

Airbags? :D

Sorry, the truck costs so darn much and the trailer so darn much that a buying mistake with either is painful... seems to be a recurring issue. Somebody should start a business taking in all the truck info and telling a potential buyer how much RV they can buy. This issue is so complicated that new owners are left to the hands of the RV salesman or car lot salesman; both founts of misinformation at best.

[captcolour]

As others have said, your only options are bigger truck or smaller trailer. I have the Alpine 3600RS and that is definitely dually territory. Easy to spend someone else's money, but if the trailer stays and if you stick with Ford, then I would do a F350 dually diesel. You won't regret it. If the dually is a daily driver, I would also consider the F450 for better maneuverability.

[Javi]

Airbags? :D

Sorry, the truck costs so darn much and the trailer so darn much that a buying mistake with either is painful... seems to be a recurring issue. Somebody should start a business taking in all the truck info and telling a potential buyer how much RV they can buy. This issue is so complicated that new owners are left to the hands of the RV salesman or car lot salesman; both founts of misinformation at best.99.9% would not believe

[rhagfo]

I took my rig to a Cat scale and found out I am over my GAWR by 80lbs with my trailer being EMPTY! Being a newbie, I am at a loss as to what to do about this situation. Here are my stats:

2016 F250 6.7 diesel 2019 Alpine 3400RS
3.55 axle ratio GVWR 15,0000
GVWR 10,000 GAWR (each axle) 7000
GCWR 23,500


scale info: Truck Only: Steer axle 4860
Drive axle 3540
Gross Wt 8400
Truck and Trailer: Steer Axle 4840
Drive axle 6180
Trailer Axle 9960
Gross Wt 20980

I presume by loading the trailer, more weight will be put on the rear axle. I do not want to tow unsafe. Is there anything I can do to rectify this?

The short answer, buy a bigger truck or a smaller trailer. ^^^^ This is the correct answer! ^^^^

See if I can make sense out of the numbers above.

2016 F250 6.7 diesel
3.55 axle ratio
GVWR 10,000
GCWR 23,500

2019 Alpine 3400RS
GVWR 15,0000
GAWR (each axle) 7000

scale info: Truck Only: Steer axle 4,860#
Drive axle 3,540#
Gross Wt 8,400#
This means Max Payload of 1,600#

Truck and Trailer: Steer Axle 4,840#
Drive axle 6,180#
TV GVW 11,020# 1,020 over GVWR, and only 480# short of F350 SRW GVWR.

Pin as scaled 2,620#
Trailer Axle 9,960#
Current (empty) Trailer weight 12,580#
Gross Combined Wt 20,980#

Sorry, if that is empty, and your F250 is loaded for camping, you are likely going to exceed the GVWR of a F350 SRW which is 11,500#.
It is time to be looking at a DRW to carry what you have. If you don't mind changing TV brands, current Ram 3500 SRW have a GVWR of 12,300#, which could likely cover the weight of that 5er, you will still be better off with a DRW TV.


Ford 2016 Towing guide see page 10.
https://www.fleet.ford.com/resources/ford/general/pdf/towingguides/Ford_Linc_16RVTTgde_r2_Oct23.pdf

[rhagfo]

Just get one of these! :D

https://i.imgur.com/OAcljXW.jpg

[MarkEHansen]

I was at this point not too long ago. I believed the salesman hype and saw the simplified version of "the numbers" had me under the max weight, so I purchased the trailer.

As I was towing it, I found it was a lot of work. The trailer was always fighting with me as I was driving down the road. While at the first camping spot with our new trailer, I saw the light with the actual numbers and the wife and I started researching a new vehicle.

Not long after, we traded our (11 month old) 2018 GMC Yukon Denali for a 2019 GMC Sierra 3500 Denali diesel dually.

Yes, we lost money on the trade-in of our Yukon, but the difference in towing is extreme. It's too bad we got ourselves into that situation, but I'm so happy we got out of it and that it only cost us money.

I know the OP has a hard decision ahead. I hope he's able to get through it as we have.

[CWtheMan]

I took my rig to a Cat scale and found out I am over my GAWR by 80lbs with my trailer being EMPTY! Being a newbie, I am at a loss as to what to do about this situation. Here are my stats:

2016 F250 6.7 diesel 2019 Alpine 3400RS
3.55 axle ratio GVWR 15,0000
GVWR 10,000 GAWR (each axle) 7000
GCWR 23,500

scale info: Truck Only: Steer axle 4860
Drive axle 3540
Gross Wt 8400
Truck and Trailer: Steer Axle 4840
Drive axle 6180
Trailer Axle 9960
Gross Wt 20980

I presume by loading the trailer, more weight will be put on the rear axle. I do not want to tow unsafe. Is there anything I can do to rectify this?


One of the things you need to do is verify the vehicle certified axle ratings. It would be very unusual for Keystone to set those GAWRs at 7000#. It invites an owner to overload the trailer's GVWR. The certification label is on the left external section of the trailer, forward of the axles.


Keystone has almost always been very accurate with their GAWR figures. From past history your certified axles should be about 6500# each. The axle manufacturer's certification is not official unless the trailer manufacturer has also used their maximum value.


In the reference below is a picture of a certification label I took at an RV show. It displays how Keystone derated that trailer's axles from 7000# to 6750#. Notice that trailer's GVWR, it's higher than yours.

www.irv2.com/photopost/showfull.php?photo=22027

[CWtheMan]

Owning the same truck (2015 F250 Lariat diesel) I can tell you that the payload is not greater than 2000 pounds. (f you own an XL or XLT, not more than 2100 pounds. That trailer, empty, as you found, has a pin weight of 2410. Add a washer/dryer, propane, batteries, equipment, a passenger in the truck, fifth wheel hitch and you're going to be well over GVW, RAWR and probably tire capacity.

That trailer is "at least a F350 SRW" and likely, when loaded for extended trips with a generator in the bed of the truck, a DRW candidate.....

As suggested, get a bigger truck or a smaller trailer. There's not much "silk purse" in your "sow's ear" .... (unfortunately).....


The published pin for that trailer is 2410#. That's right at 16%. I have to work my tail off to keep mine under 19% and my trailer is lighter than that one.

NOTE: The trailer manufacturer is required by regulation to publish a recommended tongue/hitch weight. It is normally right at a minimum acceptable figure that none of us can meet once we start loading our way. But, it is published and this one being over what that truck can handle should have been a big red trigger saying not with a 3/4 ton.

On edit: The following is a verbatim excerpt from the regulation the trailer manufacturer must use when certifying the trailer. Not how the recommended tongue weight is used. It's the only time it will be used because the owner will be 100% responsible for that particular weight once they purchase the trailer. On RV trailers, the sum of the GAWRs of all axles on the vehicle plus the vehicle manufacturer's recommended tongue weight must not be less than the GVWR. If tongue weight is specified as a range, the minimum value must be used.

[CWtheMan]

There is another way to look at vehicle certified GAWRs for RV trailers. It’s more prominent now because of the RVIA (binding on their members) recommendation for all RV trailer tire original fitments to provide a 10% load capacity reserve above the vehicle certified GAWRs.

Using the RVIA 10% minimum load capacity above GAWR for 7000# axles would require a minimum designated tire size ST235/85R16, LRF rated at 3970# @ 95 PSI. Reducing that GAWR to 6500# would bring the tire size down to ST235/85R16, LRE rated at 3640# @ 80 PSI.

See the $$$$$? It's one of the reasons why Keystone has always stuck to minimums with GAWR values. The other being, it's legal for them to do so.

No, I haven't said much about the OPs truck. It's not going to work and there is no good way to say it. GVWR is the ultimate limiter.

[rhagfo]

CWtheMan, you have three post discussing the GAWR of the 5er which was never the question by the OP. This has likely greatly confused the OP!

The OP's concerned (and rightly so) of being over the rear GAWR of the TV. Not only is he over the TV rear GAWR, also well over TV GVWR, and approaching the Max GVWR for a F350 SRW.

If you want to show your expertise in axles and tires, refer to the TV.

[66joej]

Sorry I guess I misread the post also. I thought he was concerned with over loading the 5er axle.

[chuckster57]

The short answer, buy a bigger truck or a smaller trailer.



That’s the only “legal” way.

[CWtheMan]

CWtheMan, you have three post discussing the GAWR of the 5er which was never the question by the OP. This has likely greatly confused the OP!

The OP's concerned (and rightly so) of being over the rear GAWR of the TV. Not only is he over the TV rear GAWR, also well over TV GVWR, and approaching the Max GVWR for a F350 SRW.

If you want to show your expertise in axles and tires, refer to the TV.


Well, you know the saying, if you can't say something nice...….I saved it for last, it's in post #17.

[AlpineKeith]

2 trailer axles at 7000lbs each means you can have 14000lbs on those axles. 20237 Here is the scale ticket for my Alpine 3651RL and my F350. All within vehicle limits.

Thanks. The trailer is ok. I am referring to my TV GAWR.

[AlpineKeith]

OP, am I right that you are concerned about GAWR of the rear axle on your truck? You show a weight of 6180 loaded for the rear (drive axle). I am thinking your rear (drive axle) GAWR is 6100 and thus the 80lb difference.

The rear GAWR for your truck doesn't appear in your original post and if I am correct above, may be confusing some who could give some advice. No 5er here so I am hesitant to say anything.

Good luck

Thanks Wxman. Yes it is my rear GAWR on my f250. Over by 80lbs empty.

[AlpineKeith]

Thank you all for your answers. I'm sick to my stomach right now. Will get it right, either bigger TV or smaller trailer.

[sourdough]

Thank you all for your answers. I'm sick to my stomach right now. Will get it right, either bigger TV or smaller trailer.


I know the feeling. I finally made things right in my head by just concentrating on the importance of safety to me, mine and others and the potential outcomes of any type of accident. Took me a while but I was RELIEVED when I went in and bought my current truck (and overjoyed with the driving improvement). I will be just as happy when I go in and buy a 1 ton next go round. Good luck in your search for "your" answer.

[John61CT]

A great example where "overthinking", extensive research with unbiased sources before purchasing, would save a lot of money and heartache.

[JRTJH]

There are a couple of current threads on this same topic, slightly different situations with different truck/trailer combinations, but all either "just bought" or "about to buy".... Hopefully, open, frank discussions of options and situations, sharing personal experiences and objective advice will help each of these members in making the right decisions for their particular situation.

There are lots of choices, sometimes we just don't see the stumbling blocks and make a wrong choice. The good thing is to recognize the issue and fix it before something breaks or someone gets hurt.

[rhagfo]

Thank you all for your answers. I'm sick to my stomach right now. Will get it right, either bigger TV or smaller trailer.

I know the feeling. I finally made things right in my head by just concentrating on the importance of safety to me, mine and others and the potential outcomes of any type of accident. Took me a while but I was RELIEVED when I went in and bought my current truck (and overjoyed with the driving improvement). I will be just as happy when I go in and buy a 1 ton next go round. Good luck in your search for "your" answer.

Well we do know the feeling, I was over GVWR, but under axle and tire rating for too long. I wanted to be on the correct side of the weight ratings in case of an accident.
I have a feeling you will need to go the same way.

https://i.imgur.com/OAcljXW.jpg

Good truck hunting.

[roadglide]

Don't freak out my guess is over half the folks towing are over loaded one way or another, it don't make it right but that's the way it is . Make sure your tires have load index at least 3500 each invest in air bags .

[CWtheMan]

Thanks. The trailer is ok. I am referring to my TV GAWR.


I did the math on that trailer using Keystone specs before I wrote about the axles. You'd have to show me a picture of it's certification label to convince me Keystone hasn't deratred them down to conform with the trailer's GVWR.


Brochure information is not official. The vehicle certification information is certified by the vehicle builder. They are allowed to set GAWR values below the axle manufacturers certified values.

[rhagfo]

Don't freak out my guess is over half the folks towing are over loaded one way or another, it don't make it right but that's the way it is . Make sure your tires have load index at least 3500 each invest in air bags .

If you look back back at post #12, based on the empty weight weights and then adding 1,200# to the 5er, OP will be within 480# of the GVWR of a 3500 SRW. The OP would be better off to take any money he would spend on “upgrading” the current TV, and applying it to a larger TV.

[Don_T]

I did the math on that trailer using Keystone specs before I wrote about the axles. You'd have to show me a picture of it's certification label to convince me Keystone hasn't deratred them down to conform with the trailer's GVWR.


Brochure information is not official. The vehicle certification information is certified by the vehicle builder. They are allowed to set GAWR values below the axle manufacturers certified values.

The axle rating on my Alpine 3301GR is 7,000 pounds each per the VIN tag on the side of the camper. The GVW is listed as 15,000 pounds also per the VIN tag on the side of the camper. The tires it came with are ST235/85R16. The sidewall weight rating is 4400 pounds @ 110 PSI.

[CWtheMan]

The axle rating on my Alpine 3301GR is 7,000 pounds each per the VIN tag on the side of the camper. The GVW is listed as 15,000 pounds also per the VIN tag on the side of the camper. The tires it came with are ST235/85R16. The sidewall weight rating is 4400 pounds @ 110 PSI.


I'm surprised that Keystone is doing that with their axles. It invites the trailer owner to overload their trailer. Two axles rated a 7000# plus a hitch weight of - maybe - 2500# would, if loaded to max GAWR cause the trailer to be 1500# over GVWR. Not good numbers for those not experienced enough to avoid it.


Our area RV show is next month. I'll be sure to inspect all Keystone trailers for that trend. It has never been the practice to do that in the RV trailer industry.

[Don_T]

I'm surprised that Keystone is doing that with their axles. It invites the trailer owner to overload their trailer. Two axles rated a 7000# plus a hitch weight of - maybe - 2500# would, if loaded to max GAWR cause the trailer to be 1500# over GVWR. Not good numbers for those not experienced enough to avoid it.


Our area RV show is next month. I'll be sure to inspect all Keystone trailers for that trend. It has never been the practice to do that in the RV trailer industry.

I don’t know their reasoning but I do know I am happy as the tires are rated far higher than the weight they carry. I have 12,300 pounds total on the trailer axles and that the tires are rated for 17,600 pounds total. I have had my fair share, if not more, of trailer tire issues when they are rated just high enough to pass.

[CWtheMan]

I don’t know their reasoning but I do know I am happy as the tires are rated far higher than the weight they carry. I have 12,300 pounds total on the trailer axles and that the tires are rated for 17,600 pounds total. I have had my fair share, if not more, of trailer tire issues when they are rated just high enough to pass.


I was still wondering about the overweight thing and it struck me that those that do it often, may not know what their king pin rating is. It's a serious weak link structural item many overlook. I went and got this picture from my files.

www.irv2.com/photopost/showfull.php?photo=29699


That's from my RV show picture files. I don't remember what trailer I got that from but I think it was a Heartland Landmark.

[Don_T]

I was still wondering about the overweight thing and it struck me that those that do it often, may not know what their king pin rating is. I went and got this picture from my files.

www.irv2.com/photopost/showfull.php?photo=29699


That's from my RV show picture files. I don't remember what trailer I got that from but I think it was a Heartland Landmark.

The original pin box on my camper was rated at 16k, the Goose Box I have now is rated at 20k.

I know of someone that has “someone” looking over his shoulder as he must have more than 5,000 pounds pin weight. He actually has a home shop instead of his bedroom over the pin. It is an old triple axle camper he lives in. Pulls it with an old beat up F350. I would not want to be on the road with him, but he has been doing it for years. I also met two couples this past summer that were pulling mid size 5th wheels with 1/2 ton pickups. Both had Timbrins and the truck frames were hard on the axles. One was a Ram, the other a Toyota. They both claim to have been all over the country like that.

[MarkEHansen]

I've seen so many cases where people go over the limits and then tell others that since they've done it with no problems, others should too. There was a video posted on one of the threads on this site a couple days ago which showed a number of folks pulling beyond the limits of the tow vehicle and having the trailer get away from them. I wonder if before their "accident", if each of them would have said "I've been doing this for years and there's no problem"?

[Don_T]

I've seen so many cases where people go over the limits and then tell others that since they've done it with no problems, others should too. There was a video posted on one of the threads on this site a couple days ago which showed a number of folks pulling beyond the limits of the tow vehicle and having the trailer get away from them. I wonder if before their "accident", if each of them would have said "I've been doing this for years and there's no problem"?

You are absolutely right! I don’t like when someone can justify, in their minds, that it is ok to tow overweight. I think it is wrong for them to advise others it is ok to do the same. The more overweight a combination is, the more difficult it is to keep under control in an emergency. I think there are a lot of people that don’t think about that. I just do the best I can to stay out of those discussions, they don’t seem to end well.

[Tbos]

Thanks. The trailer is ok. I am referring to my TV GAWR.



Thanks for the clarification.

[rhagfo]

Thanks. The trailer is OK. I am referring to my TV (Rear) GAWR.

Keith, do you have a plan going forward? I know that is a tough question, you are currently pushing the numbers for an F350 SRW!

I wish you the best!


Theses are Keith's numbers that I placed in a more logical order.

2016 F250 6.7 diesel
3.55 axle ratio
GVWR 10,000
GCWR 23,500

2019 Alpine 3400RS
GVWR 15,0000
Keith's "Dry" 5er weight 12,580#

scale info: Truck Only: Steer axle 4,860#
Drive axle 3,540#
Gross Wt 8,400#
This means Max Payload of 1,600#

Truck and Trailer: Steer Axle 4,840#
Drive axle 6,180#
TV GVW 11,020# 1,020 over GVWR, and only 480# short of F350 SRW GVWR.

Pin as scaled 2,620#
Trailer Axle 9,960#
Current (empty) Trailer weight 12,580#
Gross Combined Wt 20,980#

Sorry, if that is empty, and your F250 is loaded for camping, you are likely going to exceed the GVWR of a F350 SRW which is 11,500#.
It is time to be looking at a DRW to carry what you have. If you don't mind changing TV brands, current Ram 3500 SRW have a GVWR of 12,300#, which could likely cover the weight of that 5er, you will still be better off with a DRW TV.

Ford 2016 Towing guide see page 10.

https://www.fleet.ford.com/resources/ford/general/pdf/towingguides/Ford_Linc_16RVTTgde_r2_Oct23.pdf

[AlpineKeith]

Thanks for all the info fellow campers. Looking into DRW's.
And I thought scuba diving was expensive!! Ha:)

[MarkEHansen]

That's a good call. In a few years you won't remember how much the extra cost hurt (at least, that's what I tell myself :) )

I know we feel a lot better having made the change to a more capable tow vehicle.

[rhagfo]

Thanks for all the info fellow campers. Looking into DRW's.
And I thought scuba diving was expensive!! Ha:)

While I didn’t find used DRW much more than SRW one tons, I did find them hard to find! The one we bought was at dealership over 300 miles away.

[AlpineKeith]

While I didn’t find used DRW much more than SRW one tons, I did find them hard to find! The one we bought was at dealership over 300 miles away.

I'm finding that out also. At the 300 mile mark now!

[MarkEHansen]

I don't want to start a Ford vs. Chevy debate, but I really like the GMC Denali line. When we realized we had to replace our 2018 GMC Yukon Denali with a truck, we shopped for Ford F350s, Ram 3500s (a little), Chevy 3500s and GMC 3500s.

Both the wife and I really liked the GMC Sierra 3500 Denali - both interior and exterior, and were able to find a few examples of brand new trucks being sold at a 10k+ discount off of MSRP.

This truck doesn't have the same payload as some of the lower-trim level F350s do, but it has more than enough for anything we ever plan to tow.

Just keep in mind as you're looking...

[Tbos]

Thanks for all the info fellow campers. Looking into DRW's.

And I thought scuba diving was expensive!! Ha:)


Lol, I used to dive and I think it cost less than this hobby.

[rhagfo]

While I didn’t find used DRW much more than SRW one tons, I did find them hard to find! The one we bought was at dealership over 300 miles away.

I'm finding that out also. At the 300 mile mark now!

Well don't know your preferences, I am a Ram person, I also needed a TV with power seats due to leg cramps. Needed at least an SLT with optional power seats, or higher trim level.
About half were Tradesmen or ST's no power seats. I also wanted a long bed. I used www.cargurus.com and auto trader as part of the hunt. I also used a build sheet site for Ram so I could see exactly the options on the truck. https://fcacommunity.force.com/RAM/s/equipment-listing.

If you are a Ford person, I am sure you can find a similar tool to make the hunt easier.

Was it worth the 300+ miles and an 18 hour day to buy our Ram, yes we do feel so. ended up with a 2016 Laramie CTD with Aisin trans, and 3.73 gears DRW at 27,500 miles.

[Snoopy]

funny this just came up. I spent a good 1/2 hour on the phone with ford this week, trying to find out why my f250 6.7 sb only has a weight capacity of 2036 payload per my door sticker. Rear axle is 6100 lbs, front axle is apprx 5000 lbs. GVWR is 10K. tires a rated at 3050 @ 65 psi cold. yest side walls say 3450 at 80psi. ford says the 2000lbs is computer generated, and could not explain where the other 1k lbs of capacity whent.
2015 f250
2018.5 331rl HC

[MarkEHansen]

The payload is basically the GVWR minus the truck's actual weight as it came from the factory. The payload is not determined by the max load ratings of the axles or tires, except they need to be rated high enough to support the truck's GVWR.

What 1000 lbs of missing capacity are you referring to?

[JRTJH]

Snoopy,

Maybe reading this link will help ???

https://www.tfltruck.com/2018/07/ask-tfltruck-why-truck-axle-weight-ratings-add-gross-rating-gvwr/

[Steveo57]

Well I can see where you would question the payload number. With a 10,000# GVWR and a 2036# payload that would mean your truck weighs close to 8,000#. Thats a pretty heavy truck!

[Sk734]

Pulled a 16k sob with a Chev dually dmax and Allison. Very comfortable tow.

My current 2014 Chevy 2500HD 4x2 gasser has a 3100 payload. Diesel motor eats up a lot of the payload.
You made the right choice. Happy camping.

[sdetweil]

wouldn't that be nice.. wait there are already sites that have great calculators for all this data... but how do we get new folks to find them.. dealers will not do that..

[sdetweil]

The payload is basically the GVWR minus the truck's actual weight as it came from the factory. The payload is not determined by the max load ratings of the axles or tires, except they need to be rated high enough to support the truck's GVWR.

What 1000 lbs of missing capacity are you referring to?

I think he is looking at the sum of the two axle ratings ~11,500 and the truck GVWR 10,000...

the truck rating is a class thing.. in many states any truck OVER 10,000lbs gvwr is OBVIOUSLY a commercial vehicle... and requires different tax and registration requirements...

SO, truck manufacturers LABEL a truck as 10,000 lbs to be UNDER 10,001, which would make it commercial.. , this label saves their customers MONEY and trouble.

the 350/3500s have the same problem at 11500...

has NOTHING to do with the ACTUAL truck mechanicals... only the paper tag.

[smoore0449]

The OP has no issues with 80lbs. Especially since this:.

https://youtu.be/AyXgMal3C1U

[CWtheMan]

funny this just came up. I spent a good 1/2 hour on the phone with ford this week, trying to find out why my f250 6.7 sb only has a weight capacity of 2036 payload per my door sticker. Rear axle is 6100 lbs, front axle is apprx 5000 lbs. GVWR is 10K. tires a rated at 3050 @ 65 psi cold. yest side walls say 3450 at 80psi. ford says the 2000lbs is computer generated, and could not explain where the other 1k lbs of capacity whent.
2015 f250
2018.5 331rl HC


Hardly anyone will take the time to read all the rules and regulations that are used to determine the final vehicle certification results by their manufacturers.


Within those rules and regulations are provisions that the vehicle manufacturer MUST apply. The tires and axles MUST provide a percentage of load capacity reserves. When the axles provide more load capacity than necessary to support the vehicle GVWR it's load capacity reserves. When the tires provide - via inflation - more load capacity than is required to support the GAWR they are fitted to, it's load capacity reserves. When an owner uses replacement tires to gain load capacity they are only providing load capacity reserves.


("The FMVSS have requirements for the manufacturer to use proper tires and rims for the gross axle weight rating (GAWR) and the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR). The manufacturer may determine the GVWR by adding cargo capacity (if any) to the curb weight of the vehicle as manufactured. The wise consumer, before purchase, will determine if the vehicle has sufficient cargo capacity to carry the weight of water, additional equipment (such as televisions, and microwave ovens), and luggage. The manufacturer’s certification label must show the GVWR. The GVWR must not be exceeded by overloading the vehicle. There is little the government can do to assist a consumer who has purchased a vehicle that has insufficient cargo capacity for its intended use.")

[LewisB]

Don't freak out my guess is over half the folks towing are over loaded one way or another, it don't make it right but that's the way it is . Make sure your tires have load index at least 3500 each invest in air bags .

I would have bet money someone would suggest better tires and air bags. Here's where that gets you:
https://youtu.be/rJuoc0OpxRE

I love the peace of mind as well as the weight ratings/capabilities of our 2017 F350 DRW!

[sourdough]

I would have bet money someone would suggest better tires and air bags. Here's where that gets you:
https://youtu.be/rJuoc0OpxRE

I love the peace of mind as well as the weight ratings/capabilities of our 2017 F350 DRW!


But, the salesman told me it would pull anything on the lot!!

[Bumala]

scale info: Truck Only: Steer axle 4860
Drive axle 3540
Gross Wt 8400
Truck and Trailer: Steer Axle 4840
Drive axle 6180
Trailer Axle 9960
Gross Wt 20980


I noticed that your steer axle weight went down by 20 lbs when you have the trailer attached. This would seem to indicate that your pin is slightly aft of the rear axel, and at least 20 of your 80 lbs is from lifting the front end. Since I don't have one, I don't know much about fifth wheel hitches, but my brother has one, and his hitch slides forward for driving, and aft for maneuvering. Could you possibly have yours in the aft position? You might try to move your hitch forward, just an inch or two, and get a little of that weight forward.

[Bumala]

This got me looking around a little bit, and I found this on another forum

The proper location is forward of the rear axle by whatever amount the bed length and front suspension can tolerate. The further forward it is, a couple things happen and they can be either good or bad, depending on the truck capability. The weight gets distributed across both truck axles, which helps the rear and loads the front. It also makes maneuvering easier when backing (better steering angles) but increases the lag in turns when going forward (the trailer "cuts the corner" more. The main consideration is the potential for a cab strike in a sharp turn.

Few 3/4 ton or one truck trucks have an overload problem on the front axle and can tolerate more weight, at least within the limits that a 5W Rv could be positioned on a pick-up truck.

A real hitch pro would want to see the actual trailer, make measurements on permissible turn angles, check the front & rear axle GAWRs vs pin weight, and inquire about possible future upgrades. Few shops do that - they just select an arbitrary position, usually a few inches ahead of the rear axle, kind of a "one place fits all" solution.


For what it's worth. You seem to have plenty of room an the steering axel, shifting the pin as far forward as you can without hitting anything should fix your problem.

[jack65]

Should have researched this before buying the trailer.

I bought my trailer I wanted first, then bought my truck after asking questions on this forum.

Just saying... expensive lesson.

[rhaney]

My suggestion to drop some weight is replace the Pin Box with a Reese Goosebox and ditch the 5th wheel hitch. I am pulling off a goose ball and when I'm not pulling I flip the ball and I have my whole truck bed back. If you don't want to invest in a Goosebox you can go to the Andersen ultimate hitch. It weighs only 35 pounds as opposed to well over a 100 for a 5th wheel hitch. I have a F250 gas burner but I bought a trailer to fit it. The XL, as mentioned by a previous poster, has more cargo capacity than the Diesel Lariat. My truck is rated at 2300 pounds in the bed. My Sprinter 296FWRLS has a pin weight of 1,650 pounds. My gross dragging capacity is 12,600. My Sprinter's gross weight is 11,600 pounds. So, I am about 700 pounds under in the bed and about 1,000 pounds under towing. My F250 will sometimes forget the rig is behind it. Many posters have already stated the obvious. If you have a truck buy the trailer to fit it. If you have the trailer buy the truck to fit it. In your case you might consider trading the truck. Used trucks are bringing a premium price right now. Having said all that I am looking to up grade to a Lariat. I really want that adaptive cruise control and I have spare capacity with my trailer so why not.



I took my rig to a Cat scale and found out I am over my GAWR by 80lbs with my trailer being EMPTY! Being a newbie, I am at a loss as to what to do about this situation. Here are my stats:

2016 F250 6.7 diesel 2019 Alpine 3400RS
3.55 axle ratio GVWR 15,0000
GVWR 10,000 GAWR (each axle) 7000
GCWR 23,500

scale info: Truck Only: Steer axle 4860
Drive axle 3540
Gross Wt 8400
Truck and Trailer: Steer Axle 4840
Drive axle 6180
Trailer Axle 9960
Gross Wt 20980

I presume by loading the trailer, more weight will be put on the rear axle. I do not want to tow unsafe. Is there anything I can do to rectify this?

[MariettaChuck]

Been there, done that. After 2000.00 in upgrades, super springs, Hellwig away bar, etc. I ended up buying a 3500 dually. You need a bigger truck. So sorry.

[xrated]

Add me to the "Been there, done that" list. I bought my F250 Diesel 4x4 CrewCab several years before I was going to buy a camping type trailer and just figured, hey...3/4T truck, diesel, 4x4.......I'm good, I can tow whatever I choose to tow when the time comes. Of course at that time, I knew virtually nothing about towing heavy trailers. Reality set in when I finally got to the point I was ready to buy a 38-39' Toy Hauler. Their empty pin weights were several hundred pounds over the payload capacity of the truck. My F250, as described above had a whopping 2148 lbs of payload....and I was seeing EMPTY pin weights in the 2600-2800 lbs. Oops...I really screwed up. I switched gears and bought a tow behind Toy Hauler and the truck was in the payload and all other capacity limits.....until I decided that I needed an aux. diesel tank because the truck only had a 26 gallon tank. So I bought and put that in the truck. Now I was just slightly over the payload capacity and towing was sketchy at best. Toy Haulers, when loaded in the rear, get light in the front and the trailer was swaying pretty badly. So I started adding some weight to the front to get my tongue weight into the 12% range. After accomplishing that, I was then a few hundred to maybe 300 lbs over the payload. I did the smart thing....I bought a F350 Dually, with the thought in mind that if I ever get that 5ver that we were thinking of, I would have plenty of truck. That day is almost here.....A Grand Design Momentum with a GVWR of 19K.....and the important part......I have enough truck to tow it with and be within all of the weight and towing number.

[rhagfo]

Should have researched this before buying the trailer.

I bought my trailer I wanted first, then bought my truck after asking questions on this forum.

Just saying... expensive lesson.

This is great advice, but not always the way it happens.

We got a Ram 2500 CTD to replace a F250 460 that just didn't like pulling our 86 King of the Road 28' 5er. Well we wanted something larger. Found a 2005 Keystone Copper Canyon 293FWSLS, 32' 12,360 GVWR. When we went to pick it up and yep a lot bigger than the King! Well let me hook it up before signing the papers if it doesn't squat too much we will sign. Well didn't hardlt squat, so signed the papers and took home. Got loaded up and headed out on the first trip and found a Oregon DOT scale to stop at. We had 100 miles on a full tank, and darn near 10,000# on the TV with a 8,800# GVWR. :facepalm:
Well we were not in a position to change the TV and it set level and towed very well. Well we went full time and with more in the 5er and TV we were at 10,500# on the TV and maxed on the 5er. Still towed well, BUT being that far over GVWR, no matter how well it towed and handled was eating at both of us. We made the move to a TV that solved our problems.
We now have a Ram 3500 CTD, Aisin, with 3.73's and 5,411# of payload issue solved, and still room to grow again.

[sourdough]

This is great advice, but not always the way it happens.

We got a Ram 2500 CTD to replace a F250 460 that just didn't like pulling our 86 King of the Road 28' 5er. Well we wanted something larger. Found a 2005 Keystone Copper Canyon 293FWSLS, 32' 12,360 GVWR. When we went to pick it up and yep a lot bigger than the King! Well let me hook it up before signing the papers if it doesn't squat too much we will sign. Well didn't hardlt squat, so signed the papers and took home. Got loaded up and headed out on the first trip and found a Oregon DOT scale to stop at. We had 100 miles on a full tank, and darn near 10,000# on the TV with a 8,800# GVWR. :facepalm:
Well we were not in a position to change the TV and it set level and towed very well. Well we went full time and with more in the 5er and TV we were at 10,500# on the TV and maxed on the 5er. Still towed well, BUT being that far over GVWR, no matter how well it towed and handled was eating at both of us. We made the move to a TV that solved our problems.
We now have a Ram 3500 CTD, Aisin, with 3.73's and 5,411# of payload issue solved, and still room to grow again.


I appreciate this comment. THIS is what so many experience and then try to "pull" out of... at great expense.

[notanlines]

As a sometime member of the notorious 'weight police' I don't generally take the stance of "Don't do this." I believe the most important thing ON THE FRONT END is making sure that the offenders are aware of their situations. As was pointed out earlier, there are literally thousands out there towing way, way over maximums. We all break traffic laws on a regular basis. We drive into town at 47 in a 40, turn without signals, I could go on and on. If one is over their gross weight by 80 pounds is that worthy of buying a new truck? I sincerely doubt if many would answer yes AND follow through with the transaction. We find it easy to give lip service to the situation, harder to open up that checkbook. At what point are you going too fast, or what weight actually makes it too heavy?
We 'camp' in Wisconsin a few spaces from a family with a very large toy hauler, gross of 21k and he tows with a long bed F250 diesel. I turned the conversation from motorcycles to TV's, maybe getting my point to him that he wasn't even in any ballpark weight-wise. His answer? Nope, it does fine; I had the shop install air bags. When my neighbor asked him about the cargo capacity on his door sticker he didn't even know there was a reason for any sticker other than to give tire pressures. I don't think there is any hope for him. He simply won't buy into being too heavy.

[rhagfo]

As a sometime member of the notorious 'weight police' I don't generally take the stance of "Don't do this." I believe the most important thing ON THE FRONT END is making sure that the offenders are aware of their situations. As was pointed out earlier, there are literally thousands out there towing way, way over maximums. We all break traffic laws on a regular basis. We drive into town at 47 in a 40, turn without signals, I could go on and on. If one is over their gross weight by 80 pounds is that worthy of buying a new truck? I sincerely doubt if many would answer yes AND follow through with the transaction. We find it easy to give lip service to the situation, harder to open up that checkbook. At what point are you going too fast, or what weight actually makes it too heavy?
We 'camp' in Wisconsin a few spaces from a family with a very large toy hauler, gross of 21k and he tows with a long bed F250 diesel. I turned the conversation from motorcycles to TV's, maybe getting my point to him that he wasn't even in any ballpark weight-wise. His answer? Nope, it does fine; I had the shop install air bags. When my neighbor asked him about the cargo capacity on his door sticker he didn't even know there was a reason for any sticker other than to give tire pressures. I don't think there is any hope for him. He simply won't buy into being too heavy.

These are the ones that scare me!
I started a thread a while back addressing this, those that tow over GVWR, and watch tire and axle ratings, and those that that don't have a clue to GVWR, GAWR, or tire weight capacity.

The later group are the ones that scare me. I have a Heavy Duty or Super Duty 3/4 ton diesel pickup, sure I can tow 16,000# to 20,000# no problem, the salesman said so! :banghead:

Marketing doesn't help, front page of the Ram 2500 on line page has diesel 17,980# max Towing, and 3,990# max payload (likely 5.7 hemi).

https://www.ramtrucks.com/ram-2500/capability.html

Once one drills down to a 2500 diesel the numbers get smaller, still 2,270# max payload for all trim levels, and 17,100# Max towing also all trim levels.

Unknowing buyers will see that 17,100# Max towing, go out and buy a Laramie to Limited and expect to be able to hook up to a 16,000# 5er, and happily go down the road with the family of four. :facepalm:

[jack65]

Back in the 50's, 60's, they were hauling big trailers with six cylinders, small V8's.
I think back then, they used lower gearing and kept the rpm's high and were able to tow that way. Nowadays most rigs are automatics with higher rear gearing, so you have to be very careful if your towing with big trailer with lighter truck... hence all the specs and rules now.

[JRTJH]

Back in the 50's, 60's, they were hauling big trailers with six cylinders, small V8's.
I think back then, they used lower gearing and kept the rpm's high and were able to tow that way. Nowadays most rigs are automatics with higher rear gearing, so you have to be very careful if your towing with big trailer with lighter truck... hence all the specs and rules now.

Additionally, "back then" there were far fewer vehicles on the roads, speeds were generally slower, safety was not as "up front and visible" and we didn't have the communications capacity to "share information across the nation in seconds"... With more people on the roads, speeds faster, trailers significantly bigger and less opportunity for people to "learn how before doing it" things have changed.... Dramatically....

I well remember living on Highway 51, the major artery between New Orleans and Chicago. We lived just north of Kentwood, LA, and I'd ride my MoPed to town (3 miles). Most trips, I'd never meet anyone and never get passed by another vehicle. Try that now, even with I-55 being the "high speed road" and you'd meet 50+ vehicles and get passed by just as many. Times, they have changed.... Dramatically....

[AlpineKeith]

I am the OP, just a clarification. The 80lbs over my rear GAWR was with an empty truck and empty trailer. So my concern was with being loaded for camping I would really be in trouble. I have read all the replies, thanks to all, and hindsight is foresight, getting a dually. I am new to this camping stuff and will learn a lot from the mistakes in all aspects of the adventure!

[MarkEHansen]

Having to switch to a larger TV can be a tough pill to swallow - I know from experience. I don't even want to think about how much money I lost in having to re-do my decisions :( But the wife and I are much happier now :)

Good luck in your journey and pass on what you have learned!

[Northofu1]

We 'camp' in Wisconsin a few spaces from a family with a very large toy hauler, gross of 21k and he tows with a long bed F250 diesel. I turned the conversation from motorcycles to TV's, maybe getting my point to him that he wasn't even in any ballpark weight-wise. His answer? Nope, it does fine; I had the shop install air bags. When my neighbor asked him about the cargo capacity on his door sticker he didn't even know there was a reason for any sticker other than to give tire pressures. I don't think there is any hope for him. He simply won't buy into being too heavy.

On paper he may very well be over, I certainly wouldn't do that, but I have to ask. Has he ever blown an engine, tranny, rear end? Has he ever been in or caused an accident?
Maybe he drives slow and is competent in driving, just not math.

Not many scare me, I stay well behind or far ahead. I see folks quite a bit doing unsafe things but feel quite comfortable doing it.
Jus sayin, and askin. :D

[MarkEHansen]

I think there's a difference between being lucky and being (reasonably) safe. There isn't a clear line between these two. The further out of limits a person is, the more they are relying on luck (IMO).

The problem is I think some folks assume that since they've not had an accident (so far) that they are safe, when that may not be the case.

[notanlines]

Dan, I do see where you are coming from. I'm quite certain there has been no loss of life or limb with his actions. I guess what I can't seem to swallow is the idea that his pin weight alone is in the 3200 pound range empty. In his case the pin weight probably doesn't exceed the 3500 pound range or so. And yes, after 4 years in a large Raptor I am very familiar with pin weights of a large toy hauler. Without going into the usual list and weights , he is a long ways from his cargo capacity. Certainly way over on the original tire limitations. Loaded and rolling his actual cargo weight will exceed his door sticker by more than 2000 pounds. Thanks for being polite. Usually the arrogance comes into these discussions and nothing is accomplished.

[rhagfo]

Jim, I agree Tires, Tires, Tires! Too many don’t think about tires bag it and good to go. It is a total package and the weakest link will always be Tires followed by wheels.

[Fishsizzle]

These are the ones that scare me!
I started a thread a while back addressing this, those that tow over GVWR, and watch tire and axle ratings, and those that that don't have a clue to GVWR, GAWR, or tire weight capacity.

The later group are the ones that scare me. I have a Heavy Duty or Super Duty 3/4 ton diesel pickup, sure I can tow 16,000# to 20,000# no problem, the salesman said so! :banghead:

Marketing doesn't help, front page of the Ram 2500 on line page has diesel 17,980# max Towing, and 3,990# max payload (likely 5.7 hemi).

https://www.ramtrucks.com/ram-2500/capability.html

Once one drills down to a 2500 diesel the numbers get smaller, still 2,270# max payload for all trim levels, and 17,100# Max towing also all trim levels.

Unknowing buyers will see that 17,100# Max towing, go out and buy a Laramie to Limited and expect to be able to hook up to a 16,000# 5er, and happily go down the road with the family of four. :facepalm:

Yep, I agree

[Tireman9]

Jim, I agree Tires, Tires, Tires! Too many don’t think about tires bag it and good to go. It is a total package and the weakest link will always be Tires followed by wheels.


^x2


Tires are not going to "blowout" as soon as you start to move and are "only" a few hundred pounds over loaded.


But damage to tires is cumulative and the failure starts as microscopic cracks which never get smaller. So a few hundred or couple thousand miles later there is a belt separation and somehow it is the tire fault.


When was the last time owners of large trailers considered the weight shift when driving down the road with heavy side wind, or at 70+ around any curve. Just how much margin do they have to tolerate the load shift?

[Ken / Claudia]

Tireman,
I have bought that up many times. Although I have never read any tests what how bad it can be. It cannot be good for any tire.
Example: Trailer moving at 55mph on a flat straight surface. All tires would be close to a constant weight/temps. Now go over a big dip or raise in the surface. The weight on a tire as the load shifts and pushing down through the tire will be greater. Question did the load on the tire go from a ok number to exceeding the number. Now repeat that all throughout your travels. Then remember the er trailer tracks differently than the TV tires, they hit stuff you may never know about. It all adds up to potential tire problems.
I did see tests on the yaw, roll and pitch on motor vehicles tires as the vehicle is stopped and turned at high speed. When you see a close up camera view of the steering tire during high speed turns it is scary.

[Tireman9]

Tireman,
I have bought that up many times. Although I have never read any tests what how bad it can be. It cannot be good for any tire.
Example: Trailer moving at 55mph on a flat straight surface. All tires would be close to a constant weight/temps. Now go over a big dip or raise in the surface. The weight on a tire as the load shifts and pushing down through the tire will be greater. The question did the load on the tire go from an ok number to exceeding the number. Now repeat that all throughout your travels. Then remember the er trailer tracks differently than the TV tires, they hit stuff you may never know about. It all adds up to potential tire problems.
I did see tests on the yaw, roll, and pitch on motor vehicles tires as the vehicle is stopped and turned at high speed. When you see a close-up camera view of the steering tire during high speed turns it is scary.


I think that before some jump in and start to suggest that all tires should be able to handle the load variation we need to point out that ST tires were introduced to US Tire & Rim Association by Goodyear and were opposed, for the most part by the other tire companies. It was also at a time when the National Speed limit was 55 mph and I do not think there were any 30'+ 5th wheel trailers or triple axle trailers available in the RV market. The load formula for ST tires was based on a maximum speed rating of 65 mph.

It is important to remember that tire Speed Symbol is a system from Society of Automotive Engineers specifically designed to apply to passenger tires and the qualification test only requires that tires be capable of running for 30 minutes at the stated speed with 88% of the tire's max load. The adoption of the speed symbol was not initiated by any need for trailers to be able to run 80 to 90 mph or more but was based simply on avoiding trade tariffs.

[TYHLR]

Jim, I agree Tires, Tires, Tires! Too many don’t think about tires bag it and good to go. It is a total package and the weakest link will always be Tires followed by wheels.

Could not agree more.

There are a lot of RV folks that buy the "Gucci" wheels for their TV without any regard for the weight capacity of the wheels. This is especially true for us dually folks. There are lots examples out there where aftermarket wheels failed due to the inability to support the weight being placed on them.

Buyer beware.

[AlpineKeith]

Here is what I ended up with. I'm a happy camper now.
Thanks for all of your comments.

[rhagfo]

Here is what I ended up with. I'm a happy camper now.
Thanks for all of your comments.

Keith, Nice looking TV, but we need a bigger picture, Please?

Russ

[AlpineKeith]

http://www.keystoneforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=20552&stc=1&d=1551799709

[Northofu1]

http://www.keystoneforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=20552&stc=1&d=1551799709

:thumbsup:

[Sinton4616]

http://www.keystoneforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=20552&stc=1&d=1551799709

Nice setup. Glad it worked out in the end.

[TJO]

Nice setup looks good

[Tbos]

Nice rig Keith. Looks sharp.

[rhagfo]

Keith, very nice looking combination.

[ScotnBev]

To encourage the OP, been there done that. You're in good company. You're not the first and unfortunately won't be the last. In 2017 took a bath on my 2014 F250, upgrading to a 2017 F350 DRW, but haven't looked back. It was the right thing to do, both legally and family safty. The peace of mind will greatly enhance your further adventures.

[5J's]

Thank you all for your answers. I'm sick to my stomach right now. Will get it right, either bigger TV or smaller trailer.I can't say I did the exact same thing but, close. I had a 1997 F350 SWR 7.3 PSD which can handle anything because it's an F350 right? Wrong! The GVW on that truck was 9900 and I never thought about the weights but about 4 months into our first 5er I scaled it and I was sick!! We were 1000lbs over GVWR, 500 over FAWR and I don't remember where I was on the rear but, seems like some where around 900 pounds. It took me about a year to to fund what I could afford and would do the job, the problem is that ended me up in 6.0 territory. I finally bought a 2006 F350 SRW 6.0 PSD with a GVWR of 11500. Anyway, good looking set up! I had never considered Brown for a TV nut, yours is almost the same color as mine.